The name Shira – A Problem?

Home Forums Bais Medrash The name Shira – A Problem?

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  • #1160828

    cherrybim
    Participant

    “Shepsel is a nickname for shabsi, a name originally given to a boy born on Shabbos. Nothing to do with sheep.”

    There are opinions that say Shepsel, Shabsi, Sheftel… all deal with names for Sheep.

    Also there are just so many names that have been used by Yiden over the centuries; i.e., Oizer, Alexander, Bunim, etc., and hundreds of females names adapted from various languages and cultures which makes the premise of this thread highly doubtful.

    #1160829

    As JayMatt suggested asking a sheilos chochom before naming a child is a great idea.

    I bought the sefer today and it bring the Mabi”t that holds not to name names from before Avrohom Avinu. (The Ramban and many others argue on this.) Others that say Adam is not a good name. He brings a few names that are mesugal for good things for the child.

    He brings from the Chazon Ish that naming after a deceased is good for the deceased but naming from the parshah is good for the child.

    This like many aspects of Judaism has its twists and turns and obviously we all want only the very best for our children.

    #1160830

    rb1108
    Member

    I changed my name this year as per R’ Chaim. I also heard of quite a few other ppl that did… not optional when dealing with the gadol hador!

    #1160831

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    rb1108 = Joseph?

    I suspect anyone who claims everyone must listen to anything that someone claims is from R’ Chaim, particularly when others disagree.

    More like someone who didn’t bother reading the previous pages of posts

    #1160832

    observanteen
    Member

    “There are opinions that say Shepsel, Shabsi, Sheftel… all deal with names for Sheep.”

    Makes no sense. ???? – sheep?! It’s a common sephardi name, I think, and also the Hebrew name of Saturn (????? – Saturday).

    #1160833

    hanab
    Member

    We personally know someone who recently named his daugher Shira & then heard about this tumult. He wrote to Rav Chaim that he heard the Rov does not like the name. He got back the reply “tizrok et hayud” (in other words, call her Sarah). However, he asked an American godol who was a bit taken aback (well, clearly, as we’ve heard, not all poskim agree) … we have not heard the resolution yet.

    #1160834

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Seriously, is the issue that we can’t make up new names, or as someone said from Reb Chaim that these are Zionistic names?

    If the issue is the latter, what about the sephardic name Zion, or the Ashkenazic name Ben Zion? You can’t get more Zionistic then that, and yet there were Gedolim with those names.

    BTW in the book Holy Brother about Reb Shlomo Carlebach ZTL, I believe there is a story about a woman who chose the name Hatikvah for herself. She was not given a Jewish name at birth.

    #1160835

    rb1108
    Member

    Gavra; No, I’ve never posted before, but this kind of hit home…

    #1160836

    observanteen
    Member

    Ben Zion (and I guess sephardic Zion) was a name long before Zionism. The female form Zionah is probably purely Zionistic.

    #1160837

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    jaymatt19-just a small correction: the tosfos in “zevachim 27” is “amud alef” in the tosfos “divrei hamaschil”: eleh …it starts “rav Chaim omer…”

    #1160838

    oomis
    Participant

    “Perhaps the first Shirah was named by a Zionist”

    Or – maybe she was born on Shabbos Shira. or maybe her parents are musical. It is still Loshon Kodesh. What is the chiluk?

    Shepsel is a nickname form of Shabsai (as in Shabsai Tzvi, which is no doubt a good enough reason not to name someone that). Shabsai in not a Yiddish name, therefore its nickname cannot be based on the Yiddish word for sheep. Shabsai clearly refers to Shabbos and is spelled with a Beis, as opposed to a shepsel which is spelled with a Pei. NO?

    #1160839

    JayMatt19
    Participant

    I love it how people in the CR are so quick to point out the other is “wrong” or needs “correction”.

    Yes, Rabbi of Berlin, I see that on 27a Tosfos Mentions a R’ Chaim. He ALSO quotes a R’ Chaim Bar Mordechai in the only Tosfos on 27b.

    In my gemorra it is on the line opposite the line in gemarra which begins with Tanu Rabbanan

    #1160840

    JayMatt19
    Participant

    Both Ben Zion and Zion are “old names”.

    Just because there is a “recent” movement called the zionist movement does not all of a sudden turn these names into new names.

    It quotes the gemarra in Kiddushin (71a) about the name Ben Zion (no I have not looked inside yet).

    #1160841

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Tos. in Gittin (8a) also talks about R’ Peter, a nice Jewish name.

    #1160842

    1st timer
    Participant

    My daughter’s name is Shira. She was named on Shabbos Shira. There are probably 5 or 6 other Shiras in her class. I know 2 others that named their daughter Shira on that same Shabbos, too. In today’s times when there are a lot of Tzoros (sickness,OTD,etc. Lo Aleinu) why do you post these types of comments, and open up a pandoras box and cause worry and concern to parents like myself. If you have Emuna & Bitachon that everything we do is with Siyata Dishmaya, including naming our children, then this entire post was not necessary!

    #1160843

    1st timer…well said!

    #1160844

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Does our religion also believe that walking by a black cat is bad luck?

    #1160845

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Actually for Yidden, the problem is a white cat. Black cats are not a problem (unless its mother was a white cat).

    ?? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ????? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ??”? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ??????? ????? ???? ??????? ???? ?? ???? ?? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ????? ???

    Bava Kamma 80a.

    #1160846

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Gavra, very cute. It seems to depend on the cat’s grandparents, too.

    (But you know that that gemara was speaking b’toras nezek, not b’toras superstition.)

    #1160847

    cherrybim
    Participant

    From Jewish Name website:

    #1160849

    Anonymous

    Do you believe everything on the internet? 😉

    #1160850

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    jaymatt19- I did not intend to remonstrate with you.Please relax. I did check the tosfos that you mentioned and, indeed, the ‘baal tosfos’ name is R’chaim ben Mordechai. Very plausibly, it is the same “baal tosfos’ from the previous tosfos on amud alef.

    there is still no evidence that the name ‘chaim’ existed pre-middle ages, unless you accept that the name “hiyah” (very prevalent in shas) is the aramaic for chaim.

    #1160851

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Mod88, how true, especially because some name sites list Caleb as possibly meaning dog in Hebrew. Um, no.

    #1160852

    1st timer: then this entire post was not necessary!

    Especially considering that Rav Chaim K Shelita was being misrepresented in big way, and that most of the stories of name-changing with kidayshim are bubbeh maasseh (baloney).

    Gotta love Joseph’s perseverance

    #1160853

    cherrybim
    Participant

    YW Moderator-88 – Only when I try to save a sinking ship.

    By the way, let me say hello to my daughter Shira.

    #1160855

    yunger mann
    Member
    #1160856

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Yunger Mann, bindir dondat.

    #1160857

    iyhbyu
    Member

    1st timer-

    It’s people like you that I feel for when I was protesting the shtus of this thread. Shira is a beautiful name and I’m sure that that was the right name for your daughter. It’s absolutely ridiculous and I don’t believe that R’ Chaim says this for a millisecond. That a lot of people heard this story doesn’t make me believe it anymore. Even if he did, there is no reason to go around chastising those who follow every other posek including the posek hador, R’ Elyashiv.

    #1160858
    #1160859

    yunger mann
    Member

    Mods- can you put an end to this?

    #1160860

    1st timer
    Participant

    It’s not that I don’t C”V believe what Das Torah supposedly said, but I certainly don’t believe that it was meant as a blanket statement that every girl named Shira across the world has to change her name! If a psak was told to someone, it’s meant for that someone for a specific reason. Every time someone goes for a bracha (and talk about Brocha/Baruch, what kind of name is that??) and is given a different name, doesn’t mean that everyone with that same name has to change it, too.

    #1160861

    iyhbyu
    Member

    1st timer-

    I don’t think that every time someone says that “R’ Chaim says X” you have to believe them that R’ Chaim actually said that. In fact, I would highly recommend that you not do that.

    #1160862

    fabie
    Member

    R’ Chaim is alive. Why doesn’t someone ask if they are concerned?

    #1160864

    BS”D

    Leib is lion in Yiddish and not heart. It is a pure Germanic word; the surname Loeb (including the Moroccan Loeub which is actually borne by descendants of Ashkenazim who ended up in Morocco!) is a different Germanic version of this word.

    Aryeh Leib follows the same pattern as Dov Ber, Menachem Mendel, Tzvi Hirsch, Kalev Hunt etc – Hebrew original for koidesh, Yiddish variant for daily use.

    #1160865

    fabie….thats the best idea I;ve heard on this thread

    #1160866

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    If the truth is to be told, I must say, as someone who went through this, that I really can’t stand this disgusting behavior of yours. If you really case that much about truth, how do you allow yourself to attack someone based on the fact that his view is slightly more extreme than your tolerance level allows for?

    I said right in the beginning that it is obviously not a Halacha. From the comments that mention the name’s origin as Reb Chaim’s main concern, we also see that it is not a Halachic problem, just a Hashkafa or Ruchnius one.

    The Medrash in Noach says that in the olden days, when their Yichus was clear, they named after the current events. Also, in the olden days, when they had Nevua, they named after the events of the time. Today, on the other hand, we name after our parents.

    In Sefer Chasidim we find many rules about naming. He talks there about what the name brings on.

    #1160867

    I like the name Shira…

    #1160868

    To suggest that it is Rav Chaims will or opinion that all those with these names on the extended list shall immediately change their name with a Kiddush, is misrepresenting Rav Chaim and misrepresenting Halocha.

    Additionally, can you find a reputable source that Rav Chaim told someone who had one of these names (whose origin is not a roshe mentioned in Tnach), to change it?

    Does your tolerance level allow you to tolerate my being upset about this and seeking to expose this unholy behavior?

    #1160869

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    I also found it wierd that he took my comment about it not being a Halacha as if I’m arguing, but he’s not the first person to miss a point. I don’t think all the people who misunderstood me are one. To believe that 40 is one is believing in quadratinity.

    As for your arguments, it’s true that he doesn’t want people to Paskin from his writings, but he does give advice. Since this is not a Halacha, as I mentioned above, he does advise people on such matters. Also, you say that he doesn’t hold that a Kiddush is necessary. That doesn’t mean the whole thing is a lie. We all know that stories gain and lose details as they go along. Every time a story gets said over, it’s like openning and resaving a jpeg.

    #1160870

    HaLeiVi: You have left me very confused. Please clearify which point you’re adressing with which statement. Thank you.

    it’s true that he doesn’t want people to Paskin from his writings, but he does give advice. Since this is not a Halacha, as I mentioned above, he does advise people on such matters.

    Good. Please find me a repudable source that:

    1) he ever told someone who had one of these names (whose origin is not a roshe mentioned in Tnach), to change it?

    2) That the advice he gave one person, is a blanket across-the-board advice he would suggest for everyone. If he dosent want people to follow his p’sak halocha, unless told specifically, do you think he wants people to “follow” the advice he gave someone else? No two cases are ever the same.

    If you cannot find a source for #2, I respectfully request you clarify that people should simply follow their rov.

    #1160871
    #1160872

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Two additional points. One is mechuyav to make a person feel good about himself, whether or not that is the truth. Remember Kesuvos where Bais Hillel says Kallah Naeh Vachasuda. His reason was if somebody buys something in the shuk, when he brings it home should you make him feel bad about it, or good?

    The same with a name. Imagine you are teaching in the public schools where it is common that many of these multinational students have very unusual names. You tell a little girl on the first day of school, Wow, that is a beautiful name. How did your parents give you such a pretty name? You will have made her feel great and put a smile on her face for the whole year. She will probably tune into everything you say the entire year. This is our chiyuv as menschen.

    Now even granting that one has some kabbalistic belief or premonition that the name will bring a bad omen, are you allowed to say to a little girl or her Mommy, I think you need to change your name? Obviously not. It will cause terrible pain and hurt. What about the bad omen? Simple–Bahadi Kavshi dRachmana Lamah Lach. One does not conduct himself based on predictions of the future.

    This comes from the gemara in Brachos that says that Chizkiya did not want to have children because he foresaw they would be reshaim. The Navi told him the phrase above. It is your job to do your mitzvah, and not worry about Hashem’s secrets.

    For the above reasons, I find it almost impossible to believe Reb Chaim could have said such a thing.

    #1160873

    I cant believe this thread is actually 4 pages is long…

    #1160874

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Pashuta,

    If Reb Chaim has reason to think that someone will listen to him, than he’s not telling someone their name is bad.

    Truth,

    Please realize, I’m not online all the time.

    I have no opinion on this matter. It is not Noge’a to me personaly, since I have who to ask and I’m not holding by giving this name right now. The concept shocked me, just like you. At first, I couldn’t understand it at all. Once I saw the reasoning, it started making sense. I have no complaints to you for not liking it or not believing it or not wanting to believe it. My complaint is that you are accusing him of being a trickster. I was also, simultaneously, giving weight to that side of the argument. I did not and do not say that I subscribe to that train of thought, but I do not dismiss it as impossible that Reb Chaim Kenievsky could have said that.

    #1160875

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant
    #1160876

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Haleivi, what part makes sense to you?

    #1160877

    I wish someone would just ask Reb Chaim Kenievsky himself…that being said, the first line of the basically says theyheard from someone who heard….ever here of broken telephone. Something tells me what was said, was not the way it ended up comming out…

    #1160878

    HaLeiVi: You keep on skirting the points.

    If the truth is to be told, I must say… that I really can’t stand this disgusting behavior of yours. If you really case that much about truth, how do you allow yourself to attack someone based on the fact that his view is slightly more extreme than your tolerance level allows for?

    You never answered my questions.

    #1160879

    yichusdik
    Participant

    A few answers to questions that have been asked.

    First, the name Feivel or Feivish. It’s actually worse than being from a christian name like Fabian. The name comes from medieval usage of the name Phoebus – one of the names of the Greek god Apollo! It was a kinui of the name Uri, meaning light, and Phoebus was a name associated with the sun. Don’t take my word for it, look it up. As someone who has researched Rabbinic genealogy for 20 years, it has come up commonly in both my family and many other yichusdik families.

    Next; the name Leib may come from the German Loew, but it may also come from the Hebrew Lavi (lamed vet yud alef) for lion cub. There is actually an interesting discussion of where the old French, Latin, and Greek Leon/Leo/ and German Loew word came from, and most etymologists posit a Semitic (Hebrew or Phoenician, which are essentially the same) origin.

    As to the issue with Zionist names. You know, I’d like to suggest that anyone who is able should go to visit the citadel in Akko where the old British prison was. It is now a museum. In that museum in one of the displays are the tallis and tfillin of a young man named Dov Gruner (a’h). Dov Gruner was a member of the Irgun, and he was hung in that prison by the British in 1947. He was yeshiva educated born lived and died as a frum Jew. One of the most important and meaningful elements of my first visit to eretz Yisroel was saying tehillim in the place where he was killed. My Brother is named Dov Pinchas. Dov, in honour of Dov Gruner, and Pinchas for our great great great great great grandfather Harav Pinchos Halevi Ish Horovitz, The Hafloh. From what I know of my ancestor Rav Pinchas, and his brother R’Shmuel Shmelke, and and all of our other illustrious forebears, they would have been proud of their descendant carrying the name of a gibor b’Yisroel like Dov Gruner.

    #1160880

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    You asked that I clarify what point I was addressing, which I did at length. Then you brought up the topic of whether one should act upon this thread. That is a topic I never entered. Is it fun telling people, “You never answered my question!”?

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