the shidduch system

I know this sounds radical. You could say no to any suggestion that involves driving 6 hours to a 1st date.

If you reread my comment you’ll understand why the research needs to take place before the first date.

It would mean that girls that aren’t supermodels wouldn’t even have a chance. A looks first system would be a disaster.

“It would mean that girls that aren’t supermodels wouldn’t even have a chance.”

With the recent (in the last 1-2 years) decision by shadchanim to request photos along with shidduch profile the non “supermodels” are already behind the 8 ball.

Being Real, of course you are right. Several other ideas have been suggested as well over the years.

The problem is that as a very conservative commuminty every body is afraid of doing soemthing dfiferent. This goes for the leadership as well.

With years of talk about “shiduch crises” the big solution that has bee proposed is to have boys date girls closer in age, as if this small silly issue even addresses the real issues. (As an aside it hardly seems like a crises if the entire solution is to encourage more pople to do what many have already been doing)

However what it does do is gives people the ability to say “See we are doing something, lets hold off any good ideas until we see if this helps”

My daughter was redt to a young man who we were told stutters. He only wanted to meet initially on face time & she was agreeable. The encounter was done in the privacy of her room. Well guess what- she wants to have a real date with him. I am concerned and frightened. What if they fall in very deep like and where does that leave my younger daugters?

@notasheep

“Speed dating is a formalized matchmaking process or dating system whose purpose is to encourage people to meet a large number of new people. Its origins are credited to Rabbi Yaacov Deyo of Aish HaTorah, originally as a way to help Jewish singles meet and marry.[1][2][3] SpeedDating, as a single word, is a registered trademark of Aish HaTorah. Speed dating, as two separate words, is often used as a generic term for similar events.”

Is Aish HaTorah not Jewish enough for you?

The system is broken. As Notasheep said, this is not a novel concept. You aren’t the first person to voice this complaint, and I daresay you won’t be the last. But the question is, what to do about it. Whatever the solution may be, it is going to need the backing of Rabbanim and Gedolei Torah throughout the many levels of the Jewish Community. And that is what is most difficult.

If you talk to people at Aish, they will tell you that they no longer think speed dating is a good idea.

Look over here:

http://www.aish.com/d/a/48908107.html

“Many people are under the mistaken impression that they will “know” if someone is right for them very quickly. This is a myth. Most people need at least two dates to be able to decide that a date has marriage potential and they would like to know them better. Very few people develop an “instant connection.” From personal and professional experience, we can tell you that the majority of now-happily married couples gradually developed their emotional connections over the length of their courtships. When someone juggles more than one dating partner at a time, they tend to rush to judgment too quickly and give up on a promising relationship simply because it isn’t moving as fast as they (mistakenly) believe it should.

Another problem with multiple dating is that multiple daters don’t devote the emotional energy and time that is needed to enable a courtship to develop. We strongly believe that if a courtship seems promising, the partners should concentrate their energies into getting to know each other well and building an emotional connection. Life is distracting enough; another dating partner in the picture is too distracting and confusing. “

On the other hand, life is complicated. SpeedDating.com is part of Aish.com and is trademarked under it’s one word name. Check it out, and if you think it’s a good idea, send an e-mail via the “contact” menu on the site.

There are frum “shidduch events” where you can meet multiple people for a few minutes each or even spend a Shabbos with them.

Boy, that was quick. B”H the shidduch crisis is solved.

I have an instructive article from the Kuntris magazine on the subject of shidduchim, and will b’li neder type some of it up for the olam soon.

So, why can’t we reverse the stages of the shidduch process,

having people speed-date to select for compatible

personalities/”chemistry”, and only then doing research to

decide whether to pursue the shudduch with normal dating,

rendering the entire shidduch system more efficient?

Well, here’s why. Now, even if you personally disagree

with everything in the excerpt below, you must concede that

this is the accepted hashkafah in the community.

Excerpted from “The Kuntris” (Torah magazine)

Volume 1, Issue 13 February/Adar Aleph 2014:

“The Da’as Torah Files – The Shidduch Disaster”

(The piece begins on page 40 – excerpt is from pg. 44-45.

The writer is Nosson Sternbach, but he notes that the ideas

originate from the Shabbos table of Rabbi Gershon Ribner.)

A Googling of R’ Gershon revealed that he is a talmid of

Rav Aaron Shechter of Chaim Berlin, an eidem of Rav

Schneur Kotler ztz”l, and Rosh Yeshiva of Nesivos

HaTorah (on Staten Island).

The premise of the article: A boy arrives for a shidduch,

and the father realizes that all his information was about

another boy (with the same name). What should he do?

Answer: Inform him of the mistake and send him off

(politely, delicately and with sympathy, of course).

Short version: It is not tzniusdig

for a boy and girl to meet without some level of

expectation that this can lead to marriage.

Speed-dating will definitely involve meeting

numerous people of the opposite gender who are not

compatible with you and is therefore unacceptable.

Also, a positive first impression may override research

for those personally involved - the boy and girl.

“The fundamental difference between dating in the Torah

community and the rest of the world is our insistence that

all matches must be set up through a system of referrals,

aka a shadchan. Secular culture feels that there is nothing

wrong with a boy and girl meeting on their own to determine

their compatibility; in fact such intermingling is encouraged.

Many fences have been built by the Torah world to separate

us from that depraved culture. One of those fences is the

absolute insistence on a shadchan.

…

[O]ne must understand the Torah’s perspective on dating.

Any contact with the opposite gender is considered a

“danger zone.” However, in the context of searching for

one’s zivug, such meetings are encouraged and considered

a holy act.

Note: I think I should "call 'shortzoah' " here.

This is pretty obviously not found in any classic

sources, which date from the period - namely, until recent

times - when young people did not meet to "determine their

compatibility" for marriage AT ALL. Talk about it later?

Yet, there is a fine line between “kosher” dating and

immoral mingling.

In America we are so immersed in pritzus

that it is hard to appreciate any form of sensitivity in

this matter. Our barometer of what is and is not

tznius is so corrupted that any attempt

at introducing an element of modesty in our community

is viewed as extreme and abnormal.

…

In the Torah world, boys and girls do not meet haphazardly

and arbitrarily in the hopes that two people might “click”.

Rather, we set up a system of referrals to ensure that if two

people meet, there is a reasonable chance that this shidduch

is appropriate. Only in such a context do we encourage the

opposite genders to interact with one another.

…

It is a scientifically proven fact that we form most of our

judgments of a person during the first few interactions

that we have with them. Somebody with an engaging

and charming personality can easily distort their date’s

judgment of them. All later research […] will be swept

aside and only the positive qualities will be remembered.”

Note: This is about the scenario of a

full date with a random person, not a speed-dating

encounter. That might make a difference.

__________________

That’s that. Additionally, I’m sure many would say

that people would not be given enough of a chance

by such a system, and would be rejected too quickly.

Additionally, people would not be motivated to travel

long distances just to speed-date, so if the entire system

changed, many shidduchim would be pre-empted.

Randomex, I don’t agree. Obviously a certain level of research is generally appropriate, and one should have a list of qualities that one is looking for in a spouse to filter out potential partners who may not be compatible. On the other hand, sometimes everything can look great “on paper” and then, for whatever reason, after hours of effort has been expended on both sides, it just doesn’t work. Everyone has a story of a couple they know who met by accident, or weren’t interested in that type of person, or whatever– you know, the girl who didn’t want to go out with Persians who married a Persian, or the guy who was not willing to relocate who relocated for a girl. This happens with characteristics that are both superficial (height, weight) and those that inherently matter more (whether he “learns” or “earns”; whether she will stay home or work). Think about it: how on earth did those couples meet? And wouldn’t you like to encourage more of those “shidduchim” to happen, since they seem to be working? I am not suggesting that we throw our system of research down the drain, but perhaps we might experiment with a different system in addition (cautiously, of course).

P.S. My husband and I have one of those such “meeting by accident” stories. We recently celebrated our first anniversary and couldn’t be more thankful that Hashem brought us together, regardless of the way it happened. Ironically, if we had both been working with the same shadchan, we would very likely have been matched, since we do in fact have “on-paper compatibility”.

Being real: you have no idea who I am and therefore you cannot make assumptions about me not being out of the box based on one comment I wrote. I am very much out of the box. My point was that the system works when it is done properly. It is not, as you say, “broken”.

Notasheep, it’s the same with every aspect of our society. For some people, the “systems” we have work, for some, they don’t. Whether you view a particular system as working or broken is usually more a product of your personal experience than an objective overview.

the boy for his amazing qualities even though he has a speech impediment “

I haven’t read all the teplies, so if I am repetitious, sorry about that. Based on the little I have read, Moshe Rabbeinu himself would have not been able to get a shidduch with the family who is concerned about this.

My personal opposition to speed-dating, is that people are very self-conscious and totally not being themselves when in this type of high-pressure situation. I am also UNALTERABLY opposed to pictures being shown to (usually) prospective mothers-in-law, who then make the decision of whether or not a girl is shtotty enough for their precious sons.

In my youth, a blind date was virtually just that. we didn’t see pictures of anyone, and the boy called the girl, spoke to her for however long, and made the date. No games, no hiring of detectives to check into each other’s backgrounds, and no basing a relationship by how many dates have gone by, before proceeding to the next level.

I dislike the shidduch process we have today. I see a backlash to many of its aspects developing, and people are starting to realize that something has to change drastically, because too many people are not getting married at a reasonable age, and from those who are, many are divorcing. The problems we see are in unprecedented numbers. I personally know many young women who have not yet married, and they are lovely, balebatish, aidel girls in their early 30s. I also know several young men in their 20s, who are already divorced (some after less than 6 months of marriage). This is a real tragedy in klal Yisroel.

At this point, I believe that ANY method that works, should be utilized to make shidduchim, even one that is “outside the box.”

I agree that more qualified shadchanim would help the situation.

I think it’s unfair to blame the wealthy.

I think he might have been trolling. Certainly, I don’t think shadchanim who “spend every night” on shidduchim “average only a few shidduchim a year”, IF they are successful ones.

And all that nonsense about wealtyh people being too busy enjoying their wealth…

As far as needing more shadchanim, this has been mentioned as a problem in the public sphere. Hasn’t everyone seen the calls for everyone to spend an hour on shidduchim a week, or something like that?

I agree with DaasYochid – more qualified Shadchanim would help.

I think that what “Ofcourse” is suggesting is that the wealthy people pay for full-time, professional Shadchanim. Marriage counselors make around $80,000 per year. However to be a licensed marriage counselor means you need to have gone to graduate school to learn about recognizing and treating all kinds of mental illness. Of course, besides training, experience is necessary too. I doubt that there are enough frum people with those qualifications to be hired to do this job even if the wealthy people could be convinced to pay for them.

The advantage of requiring that Shadchanim be marriage counselors is quite simple. The Shadchan would meet with the couple before/after dates and discuss what went wrong, what went right and would help them build (or destroy) the relationship. This would continue on during the whole dating process and for a few months after the marriage to make sure that little problems get taken care of before they become big problems. The marriage counselor could also intervene and get a divorce if there are “surprises” (addictions or whatever). This would be very expensive, but it would almost guarantee marriages that start out with a positive, healthy relationship.

Perhaps my standards are too high? As the standards are lowered, the rate of successful marriages will go down too. At some point during the process of lowering the standards, you wind up with Shadchanim who are bored housewives and whose motivation is something other than money.

DaasYochid, please define what you mean by qualified.

As far as driving 6 hours, there was at 1 time a service that provided professional video-conferencing. If that option doesn’t exist, skype would work.

If I can say something radical in a slightly different direction, I don’t know why “professional” Shadchanim need to exist at all. I have a friend who was single. My sister had a friend who was single. I knew enough about this girl because my sister spoke about her and had her over a few times, so I set it up. They got engaged, and I was quite shocked to receive a sizable check from the new couple. I didn’t do it for money, it just seemed right. And apparently it’s quite rude to attempt to refuse the money (I asked both the Chassan and Kallah individually because I really felt very uncomfortable taking their parents’ money). So I just bought them a really, really expensive wedding present. It was my money and I could do what I wanted with it.

The point is, people in Frum communities know people. You don’t need boys knowing girls well or vice versa. You need guys who know guys and girls who know girls, and then the overlaps (siblings, close families, neighbors, friendly parents, etc.) can set people up. Honestly, I think turning Shidduchim into a big business has hurt single people more than anything else.

No, DY.

Don’t bother.

If you take the time to scroll through this thread, you”ll notice that nobody here is paying attention to, or interested in, what anybody else has to say.

Depending on getting set up by friends is a recipe for disaster and will only INTENSIFY the Shidduch crisis. Not happening, my friend. “

Depending on ANY one derech as being the ONLY one, is a recipe for disaster. We didn’t have a shidduch crisis in my day. Not likee we have now.