July 14, 2014 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #613208
As an older single boy in the yeshivish shidduch system-I AM BAFFLED BY IT!The formality and impersonal nature of it,the having to drive 6 hours just to meet someone for the first blind date,the length of the first date (ie talking to someone you have just met for three hours) and the endless checking when if you would just meet the person for a few minutes it would tell you so much more.Why cant we implement a speed dating system in the right atmosphere and with the appropiate supervision?Or any other ideas people can come up with that would fix this broken and emotionally draining system?July 14, 2014 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #1202955TheBigOneMember
There is no way you could know from a three hour date as much as is determined via research prior to the date. The research is vital to insure the subtleties, hashkafic compatibility and not immediately obvious middos are a match between the potential couple. There are many things that don’t make themselves obvious or known on a date or even multiple dates that one must diligently research. Additionally, once the couple meets and there becomes an emotional connection, even if an incompatibility is found that should have clarified that they are for whatever reason not for each other, the emotional connection or infatuation can wrongly override the common sensical and proper approach of discontinuing the potential shidduch.July 14, 2014 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #1202956apushatayidParticipant
I know this sounds radical. You could say no to any suggestion that involves driving 6 hours to a 1st date.July 14, 2014 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #1202957
to thebigone: Im not suggesting no research just meeting a bunch of girls through speed dating selecting which ones seem in the ballpark then doing research and dating regularJuly 14, 2014 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #1202958TheBigOneMember
If you reread my comment you’ll understand why the research needs to take place before the first date.July 14, 2014 9:23 pm at 9:23 pm #1202959frumguy33Participant
Thebigone- I think youre mistaken. In 3 hours i can definitely figure out more than i can from doing research. I can figure out if the girl is physically appealing to me. Furthermore some people dont sound good on paper or can be misjudged and you can judge them much better in person. I have done tons of research and seen a date go nowhere and done little research and had some chemistry. To make a broad statement that there is no way you could know is simply incorrect.
It should also be noted, that research is difficult. No one ever tells you negative information, and it is not always easy to ask the right pointed questions neededJuly 15, 2014 7:26 am at 7:26 am #1202960ari-freeParticipant
It would mean that girls that aren’t supermodels wouldn’t even have a chance. A looks first system would be a disaster.July 15, 2014 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #1202962
to the bigone:I have been dating for a while and more concerned with finding out if chemistrywise its a match then worried about being infatuated and losing my head think we should trust our commen sense a bit more.Dont think guys would just go for prettiest girl in the room meeting a person makes a big difference All I know is system is broken causing unnecessary emotional stress and wasting precious years of singles lives lets find a solution!July 15, 2014 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm #1202963apushatayidParticipant
“It would mean that girls that aren’t supermodels wouldn’t even have a chance.”
With the recent (in the last 1-2 years) decision by shadchanim to request photos along with shidduch profile the non “supermodels” are already behind the 8 ball.July 15, 2014 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #1202964popa_bar_abbaParticipant
the non “supermodels” are already behind the 8 ball.
The 4 ball.July 15, 2014 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #1202965ubiquitinParticipant
Being Real, of course you are right. Several other ideas have been suggested as well over the years.
The problem is that as a very conservative commuminty every body is afraid of doing soemthing dfiferent. This goes for the leadership as well.
With years of talk about “shiduch crises” the big solution that has bee proposed is to have boys date girls closer in age, as if this small silly issue even addresses the real issues. (As an aside it hardly seems like a crises if the entire solution is to encourage more pople to do what many have already been doing)
However what it does do is gives people the ability to say “See we are doing something, lets hold off any good ideas until we see if this helps”July 15, 2014 6:08 pm at 6:08 pm #1202966
Speed dating is a non-Jewish idea, and frankly, the idea of going to a speed dating session to spend three minutes each on twenty guys appalls me. I am thankfully no longer in shidduchim, but there is a reason why we have the formal shidduch process, and when it’s done with the proper hashkafos it works.
As for your comment about ‘wasting precious years’ – first of all, if it’s the right one, then there’s a reason you had to wait. There is also a mindset. For example, I don’t get why Americans call it ‘dating’. Dating to me means going out with a girl/boy you like without any real thought about commitment. Call it ‘going on a shidduch’ and it’s easier to tune into the real reason why we go out with a girl/boy.July 15, 2014 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #1202967Baruch10901Participant
My daughter was redt to a young man who we were told stutters. He only wanted to meet initially on face time & she was agreeable. The encounter was done in the privacy of her room. Well guess what- she wants to have a real date with him. I am concerned and frightened. What if they fall in very deep like and where does that leave my younger daugters?July 15, 2014 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #1202968
to notasheep:seems you are a sheep youre comments seem to indicate that you dont know how to think out of the box and buck “the way we do things”…speed dating doesnt have to be a goyish concept if done right it can save alot of time and heartache and produce many shidduchim If you are not american mabye you should not be judging the american dating system and if a person dates stupidly I feel he may not meet the right one for a while because of itJuly 15, 2014 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #1202969crisisoftheweekMember
“Speed dating is a formalized matchmaking process or dating system whose purpose is to encourage people to meet a large number of new people. Its origins are credited to Rabbi Yaacov Deyo of Aish HaTorah, originally as a way to help Jewish singles meet and marry. SpeedDating, as a single word, is a registered trademark of Aish HaTorah. Speed dating, as two separate words, is often used as a generic term for similar events.”
Is Aish HaTorah not Jewish enough for you?July 15, 2014 11:07 pm at 11:07 pm #1202970
to Baruch10901:If it doesnt bother your daughter what are you worried about? Mabye the stutter is not so bad or mabye your daughter is very mature and can see the boy for his amazing qualities even though he has a speech impedimentJuly 16, 2014 12:24 am at 12:24 am #1202971sayswhoParticipant
The system is broken. As Notasheep said, this is not a novel concept. You aren’t the first person to voice this complaint, and I daresay you won’t be the last. But the question is, what to do about it. Whatever the solution may be, it is going to need the backing of Rabbanim and Gedolei Torah throughout the many levels of the Jewish Community. And that is what is most difficult.July 16, 2014 12:26 am at 12:26 am #1202972kodeshParticipant
Being Real –
I can’t begin to tell you how much I’m maskim to you.
I thought about this idea a year ago, but unfortunately most ‘Frum, Yeshivish’ Rabbonim wouldn’t dare to suggest it (let alone implement it).
To Notasheep – Girls will benefit JUST AS MUCH from thi – trust me. At the moment, thousands of girls go through 2 dates with many boys (it’s rude to say ‘no’ after just 1), where over a few days – they often go through a stressful ordeal due to being excited and hopeful about their date. Meanwhile, as far as the boy is concerned – the shidduch was practically finished 5 mins into the first date.
So BOTH boys and girls will be doing each other HUGE favours (saving time/stress/money/disappointments etc) by the ‘Yeshivish World’ introducing an accepted ‘Speed Dating System’. Apart from TIMES having changed….PEOPLE have also changed – and the matzuv warrants it now!
50 years ago, who would have dreamed of going out to EAT on a shidduch – now its practicaly accpeted EVERYWHERE…..TIMES & PEOPLE HAVE CHANGED!July 16, 2014 1:09 am at 1:09 am #1202973TRUEBTParticipant
If you talk to people at Aish, they will tell you that they no longer think speed dating is a good idea.
Look over here:
“Many people are under the mistaken impression that they will “know” if someone is right for them very quickly. This is a myth. Most people need at least two dates to be able to decide that a date has marriage potential and they would like to know them better. Very few people develop an “instant connection.” From personal and professional experience, we can tell you that the majority of now-happily married couples gradually developed their emotional connections over the length of their courtships. When someone juggles more than one dating partner at a time, they tend to rush to judgment too quickly and give up on a promising relationship simply because it isn’t moving as fast as they (mistakenly) believe it should.
Another problem with multiple dating is that multiple daters don’t devote the emotional energy and time that is needed to enable a courtship to develop. We strongly believe that if a courtship seems promising, the partners should concentrate their energies into getting to know each other well and building an emotional connection. Life is distracting enough; another dating partner in the picture is too distracting and confusing. “
On the other hand, life is complicated. SpeedDating.com is part of Aish.com and is trademarked under it’s one word name. Check it out, and if you think it’s a good idea, send an e-mail via the “contact” menu on the site.July 16, 2014 2:06 am at 2:06 am #1202974YW Moderator-42Moderator
There are frum “shidduch events” where you can meet multiple people for a few minutes each or even spend a Shabbos with them.July 16, 2014 2:36 am at 2:36 am #1202975
There are frum “shidduch events” where you can meet multiple people for a few minutes each or even spend a Shabbos with them.
Boy, that was quick. B”H the shidduch crisis is solved.July 16, 2014 2:59 am at 2:59 am #1202976
My daughter was redt to a young man who we were told stutters. He only wanted to meet initially on face time & she was agreeable. The encounter was done in the privacy of her room. Well guess what- she wants to have a real date with him. I am concerned and frightened. What if they fall in very deep like and where does that leave my younger daugters?
Pardon me, but what.
The only way this makes any sense is if your daughter FaceTimed
with the boy without you having looked into him and decided that the shidduch was worth pursuing. Was that the case?
Or are you just trolling…?
He is trolling -100
If you talk to people at Aish, they will tell you that they no longer think speed dating is a good idea.
However, the article linked to was about dating more than one person at a time, that is, normal dates with each one.
Speed-dating is not “dating” at all in that sense – it is meant to lead to such dating.July 16, 2014 3:11 am at 3:11 am #1202977
I have an instructive article from the Kuntris magazine on the subject of shidduchim, and will b’li neder type some of it up for the olam soon.July 16, 2014 10:48 am at 10:48 am #1202978
It sounds like your primary issue is the amount of time and
effort the system requires you to put in just to be able to find
out – within a few minutes of meeting the girl – that you’re
definitely not interested in her. Also, time and effort is being
expended by others to research and set up these shidduchim.
Speed-dating sessions, you presumably argue, would allow you
(and, of course, everyone else in shidduchim)
to eliminate such “mismatches” and avoid the time spent on
them, thus rendering the entire system more efficient.
It bears thinking about. I’m sure many would say that people
would not be given enough of a chance by such a system,
being rejected too quickly (and, by extension, that you
are deciding too quickly when you reject your shidduchim).
(This has been argued even about full-length dates:
"Never go out once / it's a basic rule
Zain tatteh hut gelt / gai arois noch a mool
Vus vet zain oib di vilst nisht gain?
Di vest blaiben gantze leben alain
Gai shoin shnell / ich gai dir geiben a brucha
Chasunah hobben / mach a groise mishpucha
This is the point we're tryin'a tell you
That making a shidduch is a hard thing to do"
"Shidduch Date" - Black Hattitude :)
Wow, it's been nearly 20 years since that album's release.)
More seriously, though, I’m sure many girls and boys would
not be comfortable with the idea of such a situation, or in it.
Additionally, people would not be motivated to travel
long distances just to speed-date, so if the entire system
changed, many shidduchim would be pre-empted.
Also see the magazine article excerpt in my next post.
Side note: Maybe you could request shorter dates,
if the long (first?) dates annoy you even when you
don’t decide after 5 minutes that she’s not for you.July 16, 2014 10:49 am at 10:49 am #1202979
So, why can’t we reverse the stages of the shidduch process,
having people speed-date to select for compatible
personalities/”chemistry”, and only then doing research to
decide whether to pursue the shudduch with normal dating,
rendering the entire shidduch system more efficient?
Well, here’s why. Now, even if you personally disagree
with everything in the excerpt below, you must concede that
this is the accepted hashkafah in the community.
Excerpted from “The Kuntris” (Torah magazine)
Volume 1, Issue 13 February/Adar Aleph 2014:
“The Da’as Torah Files – The Shidduch Disaster”
(The piece begins on page 40 – excerpt is from pg. 44-45.
The writer is Nosson Sternbach, but he notes that the ideas
originate from the Shabbos table of Rabbi Gershon Ribner.)
A Googling of R’ Gershon revealed that he is a talmid of
Rav Aaron Shechter of Chaim Berlin, an eidem of Rav
Schneur Kotler ztz”l, and Rosh Yeshiva of Nesivos
HaTorah (on Staten Island).
The premise of the article: A boy arrives for a shidduch,
and the father realizes that all his information was about
another boy (with the same name). What should he do?
Answer: Inform him of the mistake and send him off
(politely, delicately and with sympathy, of course).
Short version: It is not tzniusdig
for a boy and girl to meet without some level of
expectation that this can lead to marriage.
Speed-dating will definitely involve meeting
numerous people of the opposite gender who are not
compatible with you and is therefore unacceptable.
Also, a positive first impression may override research
for those personally involved - the boy and girl.
“The fundamental difference between dating in the Torah
community and the rest of the world is our insistence that
all matches must be set up through a system of referrals,
aka a shadchan. Secular culture feels that there is nothing
wrong with a boy and girl meeting on their own to determine
their compatibility; in fact such intermingling is encouraged.
Many fences have been built by the Torah world to separate
us from that depraved culture. One of those fences is the
absolute insistence on a shadchan.
[O]ne must understand the Torah’s perspective on dating.
Any contact with the opposite gender is considered a
“danger zone.” However, in the context of searching for
one’s zivug, such meetings are encouraged and considered
a holy act.
Note: I think I should "call 'shortzoah' " here.
This is pretty obviously not found in any classic
sources, which date from the period - namely, until recent
times - when young people did not meet to "determine their
compatibility" for marriage AT ALL. Talk about it later?
Yet, there is a fine line between “kosher” dating and
In America we are so immersed in pritzus
that it is hard to appreciate any form of sensitivity in
this matter. Our barometer of what is and is not
tznius is so corrupted that any attempt
at introducing an element of modesty in our community
is viewed as extreme and abnormal.
In the Torah world, boys and girls do not meet haphazardly
and arbitrarily in the hopes that two people might “click”.
Rather, we set up a system of referrals to ensure that if two
people meet, there is a reasonable chance that this shidduch
is appropriate. Only in such a context do we encourage the
opposite genders to interact with one another.
It is a scientifically proven fact that we form most of our
judgments of a person during the first few interactions
that we have with them. Somebody with an engaging
and charming personality can easily distort their date’s
judgment of them. All later research […] will be swept
aside and only the positive qualities will be remembered.”
Note: This is about the scenario of a
full date with a random person, not a speed-dating
encounter. That might make a difference.
That’s that. Additionally, I’m sure many would say
that people would not be given enough of a chance
by such a system, and would be rejected too quickly.
Additionally, people would not be motivated to travel
long distances just to speed-date, so if the entire system
changed, many shidduchim would be pre-empted.July 16, 2014 3:03 pm at 3:03 pm #1202980
to YW moderator-42:dont know these events in the mainstream yeshivish world if they are occuring please tell me about them regarding all the comments from randomex :Im suggesting a speed dating event where boys and girls who would have dated each other anyway meet ie same backgrounds haskafos etc so youre not just meeting girlsboys that have no shaychus and would be controlled atmosphereJuly 16, 2014 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #1202981jewishfeminist02Member
Randomex, I don’t agree. Obviously a certain level of research is generally appropriate, and one should have a list of qualities that one is looking for in a spouse to filter out potential partners who may not be compatible. On the other hand, sometimes everything can look great “on paper” and then, for whatever reason, after hours of effort has been expended on both sides, it just doesn’t work. Everyone has a story of a couple they know who met by accident, or weren’t interested in that type of person, or whatever– you know, the girl who didn’t want to go out with Persians who married a Persian, or the guy who was not willing to relocate who relocated for a girl. This happens with characteristics that are both superficial (height, weight) and those that inherently matter more (whether he “learns” or “earns”; whether she will stay home or work). Think about it: how on earth did those couples meet? And wouldn’t you like to encourage more of those “shidduchim” to happen, since they seem to be working? I am not suggesting that we throw our system of research down the drain, but perhaps we might experiment with a different system in addition (cautiously, of course).
P.S. My husband and I have one of those such “meeting by accident” stories. We recently celebrated our first anniversary and couldn’t be more thankful that Hashem brought us together, regardless of the way it happened. Ironically, if we had both been working with the same shadchan, we would very likely have been matched, since we do in fact have “on-paper compatibility”.July 16, 2014 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #1202982
Baruch10, you win the prize!
Yours was the MOST nonsensical post I have ever read in the CR.
If you’re here for the laughs, your fellow CR patrons appreciate a good laugh as much as the next person; find your way to the joke thread.
Unfortunately, I can’t offer a great idea for an easy way to solve the difficulties in finding one’s true zivug. For some people it does become a drawn out, sometimes unpleasant process. So before I sign off, I want to wish all the single posters here (I’m guessing there are a few on this thread) a quick answer to their prayers and a short easy trip to their bayis ne’eman!July 16, 2014 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #1202983
Being real: you have no idea who I am and therefore you cannot make assumptions about me not being out of the box based on one comment I wrote. I am very much out of the box. My point was that the system works when it is done properly. It is not, as you say, “broken”.July 16, 2014 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #1202984BTGuyParticipant
I just want to comment on the shallowness and superficiality of the shidduch system.
In the outside world, profiles of candidates admit if they have less than perfect and are often realistic regarding what they are looking for in a person.
In our system, too much falsehood prevails. The consequences can, chas v’shalom, be defeating toward the goal of a happy and healthy marriage.
Firstly, by us age is a critically important variable, even by as much as one year. The chemistry between two people is not really a concern for all the other people involved.
Secondly, while it is important to look nice and look your best, losing 50 pounds for a few months only to gain it back afterward, is not representative of the real you. There is too much pressure on people to be a perfect, 8″ x 10″ glossy photo of their ideal self.
Thirdly, every tzaddik can find people to endorse the fact they are a gem. But also, every trouble maker finds supportive people who tell the world they are a tzaddik, as well, just to get them married off. In short, and in general, every boy is a tzaddik no matter what, and every girl is loaded with middos and acts of chesed before the marriage.
What about the notion of dating someone you find you really like in a three dimensional way whether they have perfect middos and are a low BMI, or not?? It aint gonna happen here unless youths go off on their own to see who is out there; and that has it’s own tangled web of possibilities.
A (not the) solution? The boy and girl should feel comfortable to be honest about who they are; their likes and interests. Forget the status quo and build-ups. None of us are wholley the person everyone else says we are when we go out on a date. That is a false image and leaves the real person and their true and unique good traits locked up inside.
For the most part, daters are very young with little or no experience. The adults should realize it’s not necessary to schmaltz them all up, even if it’s meant with love. Finding your other half has to be internal as well as external. Trust in Hashem to help the process once you keep it real.July 16, 2014 8:25 pm at 8:25 pm #1202985
Notasheep, it’s the same with every aspect of our society. For some people, the “systems” we have work, for some, they don’t. Whether you view a particular system as working or broken is usually more a product of your personal experience than an objective overview.July 16, 2014 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #1202986
Very true, DY.
In that case how do we objectively decide whether or not our shidduch system needs fixing?
How do we conclude that our generation faces a unique shidduch crisis?
If we want to come to that conclusion on the basis of seeing older singles in our community, we still can’t say that this is a function of our own system’s inadequacy.
I remember older singles who were frequent guests at my parents’ Shabbos table, and that was a very long time ago. (I may not be the most ancient poster here, but I’m definitely in the running.) I also remember my parents telling me about older singles they knew when they were growing up, and that was in a time and place with a whole different set of rules.
Can we say that shidduchim are, and have always been, kasheh k’krias Yam Suf?July 16, 2014 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #1202987oomisParticipant
the boy for his amazing qualities even though he has a speech impediment “
I haven’t read all the teplies, so if I am repetitious, sorry about that. Based on the little I have read, Moshe Rabbeinu himself would have not been able to get a shidduch with the family who is concerned about this.
My personal opposition to speed-dating, is that people are very self-conscious and totally not being themselves when in this type of high-pressure situation. I am also UNALTERABLY opposed to pictures being shown to (usually) prospective mothers-in-law, who then make the decision of whether or not a girl is shtotty enough for their precious sons.
In my youth, a blind date was virtually just that. we didn’t see pictures of anyone, and the boy called the girl, spoke to her for however long, and made the date. No games, no hiring of detectives to check into each other’s backgrounds, and no basing a relationship by how many dates have gone by, before proceeding to the next level.
I dislike the shidduch process we have today. I see a backlash to many of its aspects developing, and people are starting to realize that something has to change drastically, because too many people are not getting married at a reasonable age, and from those who are, many are divorcing. The problems we see are in unprecedented numbers. I personally know many young women who have not yet married, and they are lovely, balebatish, aidel girls in their early 30s. I also know several young men in their 20s, who are already divorced (some after less than 6 months of marriage). This is a real tragedy in klal Yisroel.
At this point, I believe that ANY method that works, should be utilized to make shidduchim, even one that is “outside the box.”July 16, 2014 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm #1202988ari-freeParticipant
apushatayid “With the recent (in the last 1-2 years) decision by shadchanim to request photos along with shidduch profile the non “supermodels” are already behind the 8 ball. “
That may be but the shadchan is still looking at other factors before making an advisement. Whereas in a speed dating situation, not only will looks become the primary factor, you will have the not so perfect looking girls in the room feeling like the kids that always get picked last for the team.July 16, 2014 11:38 pm at 11:38 pm #1202989
to notasheep:its true I do not know you and may have come of a bit too critical but the way u reacted did seem like you dont realize the magnitude of the problem I personally feel the person that can judge the system are the older singles that are in it and go through the emotional roller coaster of it the good and the bad.Ask any older single and they will admit in my experience to the fustration that something is just not working here Just because many do get married does not mean the system is not broken and could be greatly improved Regarding pictures: I do feel its wise if and only if an older single can look at it with an open mind that it might not be a great picture etc and is not looking for a model It can save alot of time when looks are totally not in the ballparkJuly 17, 2014 12:09 am at 12:09 am #1202990
I think people here are missing the problem. Ive made more than 10 Shidduchim in the last few years B”H. I deal with Mod Orth Machmir to Yeshivish.
There are simply not enough Shadchanim willing to put enough time into Shidduchim. A Shadchan averages a few Shidduchim a year, even the most successful. But many make as little as one a year!!!!! If theyre getting 1,000 or even 1,800 a side, and are spending every night, every year involved in Shidduchim, and we all know that most are unsuccessful, they make pennies an hour. With the economic climate we’re in, that’s just not feasible.
If the very wealthy people in the community would be willing to put every spare minute into Shidduchim, b’chol l’vavam u’bchol nafshum, we wouldn’t have a Shidduch crisis!!!! and lots less heartache, because wealthy people are influential and their voices would be heard!!!
When ______________ talks, people listen. But, LEIDER they say they have no time (unless theyre looking for Shidduchim for their own children, then theyre busy yomam v’laila and find the time)!!!!
Theyre just too busy going from their city home to their winter home, back to their city home, then on to their summer homes, and lavish vacations thrown in, in between shopping trips. They have time for packing and going and coming…
Sorry folks, its the truth!
FINITO!July 17, 2014 12:46 am at 12:46 am #1202991
I agree that more qualified shadchanim would help the situation.
I think it’s unfair to blame the wealthy.July 17, 2014 1:24 am at 1:24 am #1202992netazarParticipant
Why? Are wealthy people better at shidduchim? Or do you think they have more free time? Or do you just have a grudge against that entire segment of the community?July 17, 2014 2:16 am at 2:16 am #1202993
I think he might have been trolling. Certainly, I don’t think shadchanim who “spend every night” on shidduchim “average only a few shidduchim a year”, IF they are successful ones.
And all that nonsense about wealtyh people being too busy enjoying their wealth…
As far as needing more shadchanim, this has been mentioned as a problem in the public sphere. Hasn’t everyone seen the calls for everyone to spend an hour on shidduchim a week, or something like that?July 17, 2014 2:56 am at 2:56 am #1202994
Trolling, my foot! Its Common Sense.
If Shadchanim would get paid more per Shidduch, imho there would be more Shadchanim.
If people are hesitant to put the time into Shidduchim because of financial loss because of the time spent, that leaves only the very wealthy who can well afford to do it without major loss to their families!!!!
As far as how many Shidduchim successful Shadchanim make yearly, ask a S U C C E S S F U L Shadchan how many Shidduchim they average a year. I think you’ll be surprised. But don’t ask any who are prone to lieing or exaggerating. Get back to us here on that, please.July 17, 2014 3:36 am at 3:36 am #1202995TRUEBTParticipant
I agree with DaasYochid – more qualified Shadchanim would help.
I think that what “Ofcourse” is suggesting is that the wealthy people pay for full-time, professional Shadchanim. Marriage counselors make around $80,000 per year. However to be a licensed marriage counselor means you need to have gone to graduate school to learn about recognizing and treating all kinds of mental illness. Of course, besides training, experience is necessary too. I doubt that there are enough frum people with those qualifications to be hired to do this job even if the wealthy people could be convinced to pay for them.
The advantage of requiring that Shadchanim be marriage counselors is quite simple. The Shadchan would meet with the couple before/after dates and discuss what went wrong, what went right and would help them build (or destroy) the relationship. This would continue on during the whole dating process and for a few months after the marriage to make sure that little problems get taken care of before they become big problems. The marriage counselor could also intervene and get a divorce if there are “surprises” (addictions or whatever). This would be very expensive, but it would almost guarantee marriages that start out with a positive, healthy relationship.
Perhaps my standards are too high? As the standards are lowered, the rate of successful marriages will go down too. At some point during the process of lowering the standards, you wind up with Shadchanim who are bored housewives and whose motivation is something other than money.
DaasYochid, please define what you mean by qualified.July 17, 2014 4:38 am at 4:38 am #1202996
I don’t know that I’m qualified to define qualified. 🙂
What I mean is, shadchanim with the skills to facilitate shidduchim, while at the same time treating all of the parties respectfully.July 17, 2014 12:29 pm at 12:29 pm #1202998emanParticipant
As far as driving 6 hours, there was at 1 time a service that provided professional video-conferencing. If that option doesn’t exist, skype would work.July 17, 2014 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm #1202999
Being real – I do know many people who were in the system for a while. I know all the frustrations they experienced after crossing off yet another name, and the understanding they reached when they finally did meet the right one. I still think there is an approach that people have to the system which is causing it to be less effective. For instance, the problem is far worse in America than it is in England. Additionally, some circles (such as Chassidim) do not have the same problem with shidduchim as other circles. So perhaps this does go to show that the conservative method of shidduchim does work better, and therefore does not need change. What has possibly gone wrong here is that new ideas have been introduced into the shidduch process, and also some very superficial thinking from prospective parents-in-law or even the boy/girl themselves. Unfortunately, much of this superficiality has come from the culture that surrounds us today.July 17, 2014 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #1203000Sam2Participant
If I can say something radical in a slightly different direction, I don’t know why “professional” Shadchanim need to exist at all. I have a friend who was single. My sister had a friend who was single. I knew enough about this girl because my sister spoke about her and had her over a few times, so I set it up. They got engaged, and I was quite shocked to receive a sizable check from the new couple. I didn’t do it for money, it just seemed right. And apparently it’s quite rude to attempt to refuse the money (I asked both the Chassan and Kallah individually because I really felt very uncomfortable taking their parents’ money). So I just bought them a really, really expensive wedding present. It was my money and I could do what I wanted with it.
The point is, people in Frum communities know people. You don’t need boys knowing girls well or vice versa. You need guys who know guys and girls who know girls, and then the overlaps (siblings, close families, neighbors, friendly parents, etc.) can set people up. Honestly, I think turning Shidduchim into a big business has hurt single people more than anything else.July 17, 2014 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #1203001
Should I counter that story with a story of someone who found a shidduch through a professional shadchan?July 17, 2014 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #1203003
If you take the time to scroll through this thread, you”ll notice that nobody here is paying attention to, or interested in, what anybody else has to say.July 17, 2014 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #1203004
The point is, people in Frum communities know people. You don’t need boys knowing girls well or vice versa. You need guys who know guys and girls who know girls, and then the overlaps (siblings, close families, neighbors, friendly parents, etc.) can set people up. Honestly, I think turning Shidduchim into a big business has hurt single people more than anything else.
Great idea thats been suggested for a LOOOONG time, but unfortunately is not happening enough. How many letters have you read to the Yated and other publications, from singles bemoaning the fact that their former best friends dont even call them once they get married, never mind suggesting Shidduchim!
Depending on getting set up by friends is a recipe for disaster and will only INTENSIFY the Shidduch crisis. Not happening, my friend.July 17, 2014 10:39 pm at 10:39 pm #1203005oomisParticipant
Depending on getting set up by friends is a recipe for disaster and will only INTENSIFY the Shidduch crisis. Not happening, my friend. “
Depending on ANY one derech as being the ONLY one, is a recipe for disaster. We didn’t have a shidduch crisis in my day. Not likee we have now.July 17, 2014 11:24 pm at 11:24 pm #1203006besalelParticipant
the idea that the jewish way is blind dates being set up by the mothers of the single people after reviewing resumes (ugh) and going through a paid broker who works on commissions is ludicrous. there is NOTHING jewish about the shidduch system and quite frankly it makes the heimishe community look a little retarded.
the current system is a loser on all fronts and the only thing going for it is that it is so inept it is destined, within a short period of time, to collapse upon itself.
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