the shidduch system
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- This topic has 146 replies, 48 voices, and was last updated 6 years, 5 months ago by Lilmod Ulelamaid.
July 18, 2014 1:35 am at 1:35 am #1203007
the current system is a loser on all fronts and the only thing going for it is that it is so inept it is destined, within a short period of time, to collapse upon itself.
What exactly would you recommend as the ideal, that Rabbonim would like and encourage?
Lets not forget that 75% of singles in our communities get married that way, and we still have a WAY WAY lower divorce rate than the world at large… so B”H it could be worse!July 18, 2014 5:17 am at 5:17 am #1203008GM1Member
I agree that the system needs an overhauling but its not the job of wealthy people to support shadchanim. Kol hakavod to Sam2-it Is really special to make a shidduch. And that is the point-we cant leave it up to the professionals alone-they need help. And the amateur laymen have the same ability to bring about a shidduch. As a single myself, most of my dates come about through friends and family, and not through ‘professional’ shadchanim. Lastly, I know that there are many singles who feel that their ‘married’ friends have betrayed them, but I personally don’t feel that way-I have a bunch of amazing married friends who think of boys for me and set me up. We have to bring about this trend. The young couples are the ones who hold the key in their hands. The husbands know boys and the wives know girls!July 18, 2014 5:23 am at 5:23 am #1203009GM1Member
“Depending on getting set up by friends is a recipe for disaster and will only INTENSIFY the Shidduch crisis. Not happening, my friend.”
Why do you say that??
I happen to find that a single who is not 19 anymore(i.e. has been on the shidduch scene for a bit) who gets married, will keep her single friends in mind and try to help her out because she knows exactly what her friend is going through, because shes been through it herself. I wouldn’t ‘depend’ on single friends, but they are definitely a great resource.July 18, 2014 11:00 am at 11:00 am #1203010
The driving is ridiculous. The women need to meet the men more. My memory of shiduchim is men give, women take. It wouldn’t be so bad if people were marrying the 3rd person after 4 dates, but this dating for years to find the perfect, perfect one, where the guys are doing all the calling, driving, paying, thinking of things to do, and proving of themselves is unhealthy for all.July 18, 2014 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #1203011TheGoqParticipant
There’s a new reality show on tv where 4 experts are matching people up and they dont speak or know anything about their betrothed and dont see the other person till they are walking down the aisle, lets try that!July 18, 2014 2:43 pm at 2:43 pm #1203012
Goq, are you sure that’s a reality show and not a horror movie?July 18, 2014 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #1203013
to notasheep: could be you know some singles but as I said don’t think anyone can really understand the pain and the emotional roller coaster that is the older singles world on a daily basis no shadchan or married person that hasn’t experienced it but I guess its true in many of the tzaros of life The boys have it hard as they have to do all the driving planning and running the conversation. They also have a million suggestions people chepering them and mad at them when they don’t go out with their suggestions etc Girls sit at home without any suggestions feel the pain of being judged if they are not a size 2 etc The boys are in the foreast(lost among the trees) and the girls are in the desert.July 18, 2014 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #1203014
Regarding shadchanim we definitely need more people to get involved I was red a few girls by a shadchan and my friends wife is on all of them as a reference why isn’t he trying to red them himself to me(maybe theyre not good ideas not sure)More young marrieds need to try but please think before u red don’t just red “pants-skirts” shidduchum its not fair to the boy and girl wasting their time and efforts To the professinal shadchanim out there many of you look at it as a business(not sure why don’t think theres much money to be made)some of you like the hock and others are really lshem shamayim but whatever it is that motivates you please spend the time to really get to know the singles and so many more shadchanim will be madeJuly 18, 2014 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #1203015
I got this in my inbox about two months ago from someone I know. Some of you may have seen it as I know she did send it to the Yated some weeks ago but for those of you who haven’t it’s very worth your while to read, even though it’s long. It sums up what a lot of girls are going through because of this whole system and because of the society today.
I wrote this… I think we can all relate hope it wakes up some mother of boys… .
I’m sorry if it hurts anyone.
This worlds messed up
This worlds corrupt
The worlds morals are all mixed up.
I’d like to propose a brilliant idea that will solve the shidduch crisis. See, I realized we are instilling our kids from a young age with the wrong values. Therefore, I’d like to propose a proposition to fix this big mess up.
I would like to open up a school that stops teaching kids to have respect, to share their toys, and help others.There’d be no rules like saying please and thank you. No tzedaka would be collected, and all Chessed programs would of course be obliterated.
All those are silly things, they aren’t important. They don’t show who you are, they only show the way you act.
In this school the only thing important is how you dress and what you look like. Dress sizes will be enforced, only the prettiest will get A’s.
The reason this school will be a smashing success is because you learn in school what you need to help you in life and help you to be the true eishes chayil. And now a days the only way to be successful in life and the only way to be a true eishes chayil is to be pretty and skinny. Otherwise you stand no chance. Only the pretty and skinny will make good wives, middos, ehh they are so over rated.
How you treat others will not prove you’ll be a good wife. Being a giver definitely won’t help shalom bayis. Having good middos, being growth oriented won’t be good for your kids to see. And being a caring person definitely won’t make you be a good mother. The only way to be a good mother and good wife is if you are pretty and skinny.
This worlds messed up
This worlds corrupt
The worlds values are all mixed up
Middos will never make one a good wife . Insides are not measuring sticks for what one truly is. Only externals are what really counts. If you’re not a size zero with blonde flowing hair, than you’ll never make a good wife. So let’s start this school. Are you with me on this? Let’s stop filling kids with stupid ideas like sharing and caring. Let’s stop filling their minds with silliy ideas like middos and chessed before it’s too late. Let’s start filling their heads with looks and weights. Because after all, that’s what’s important.
To all those out there who bash my generation as selfish and self obsorbant people…turn around and look in the mirror. You’re the ones to blame. You’re the ones who brought up my generation and your the ones who are messed up. You teach middos but preach externals. We’re not the messed up ones, you are. We are only the way we are because you brought us up that way and we feel the need to live up to your high standards of looks.
I may never get married because I am not blonde and not 5’5, but if I ever do get married thanks to some corrupt young man whose mad enough to think middos are more important than looks in having a good marriage, than I give myself a bracha that above all my kids should be mentchs. I give myself a Bracha that.my kids should be known for their middos, their derech eretz, their love of every Jew and desire to help anyone and everyone in any small or big way. And so yes, I guess that means I’ll be a bad mother and terrible wife because I’ll be shtooping my kids with follies and falsehood about middos and internals being more important than looks.
It’ll make me a bad mother. So be it.
But I refuse to allow my children to stoop to the level of what I consider folly and falsehood. I’ll be a bad mother for teaching my kids to respect and accept all. I’ll be a bad mother for teaching my kids to be positive and live life. I’ll be a bad mother, bad wife, and bad person.
But that’s just who I am.
I’m sorry my parents instilled in me that which I would like to instill within my children.
I’m sorry my parents taught me that it’s what’s on the inside that counts.
I’m sorry my parents taught me that looks can be deceiving and fade with time but the effect of an action will echo on forever.
I’m sorry my parents brought me up right.
And I hope I make the same mistake my parents made with me, when I bring up my children.
?Dear Future Mother in Law of some gorgeous model,
The reason your son is still single is because of you. Think it’s harsh? Well it’s even harsher to be judged by the color of your hair and the size of your dress.
It’s not a shidduch crisis, there’s nothing wrong with the girls, it’s a mother in law crisis.
And if you’d like to shift the blame to your son — “I’m only asking about looks because this is what’s important to my son”?, well guess what, that makes you look worse than if it was you who wanted to know. Because it means that looks is what’s important to you, AND what you instilled into your child.
And don’t try to cover your despicable behavior by saying that even though looks are important to you, middos of course are more important. If that were true, you wouldn’t even ask for a picture in the first place. If that were true, your trash cans wouldn’t be filled with resume’s of girls who you nixed before looking into them because you saw a picture and she didn’t fit your bill of beautiful.
And if that were true, your trash cans wouldn’t be piled high with resumes of girls you looked into, heard great things about, and then crumbled up when you saw their picture.
I’m not interested in a mother in law who has to flaunt me to her friends. I’m not interested in a mother in law who only cares about my body. I don’t need a mother in law who looks at my body. I don’t need a mother in law who will bad mouth my body to my husband after I have kids and my body changes. I don’t need that pressure and I don’t want it. No need to say no to me dear Mother in Law of a model, because I have already said no to you because of your lack of middos.
I’m not a piece of garbage that needs to be passed from mother of boys to mother of boys to be decided if I’m worth keeping. I’m a prize that you should be fought for.
You have it all wrong, mother in law. It’s not that I’m not pretty enough to marry your son, it’s you’re too vain to deserve me as a daughter in law.
This worlds messed up
This worlds corrupt
The worlds morals are all mixed up.
But I was brought up right.
And as the years go on and the situation gets worse, at least I know that my kids will have middos. It’ll be comforting to know that next generation of self conscious, and eating disordered kids are growing up, there will be a select few kids who have tremendous middos and tremendous self-confidence. Yes, those will be my kids. Because that’s what’s important to me. But don’t worry dear Mother in Law of a future model. Your stunning and dazzling daughter in law will come to take your prince out of singlehood. Don’t worry dear Mother in Law of a future model, you’ll get your gorgeous, skinny precious low self esteem grandchild- with no middos- soon.July 19, 2014 12:19 am at 12:19 am #1203016squeakParticipant
If that poor girl ever does end up getting married, her husband will definitely need to have her institutionalized within the year.July 19, 2014 11:06 pm at 11:06 pm #1203017notasheepMember
Streek, thanks for that! That’s exactly the superficiality I was talking about.
Being real, my brother was once one of those boys who travelled distances, only to be told “no thanks” after one date. After losing count of how many girls he met, his wife actually came to meet him when they were going out. Their age difference is 6 years. When he started shidduchim she was still in high school. That’s what I meant when saying that whilst in the system it is hard, but there’s a reason for having to wait.July 20, 2014 2:57 am at 2:57 am #1203018
streek, YOU ARE AMAZING and hit the nail on the head!!!!!!!!! If only there were boys around with your mindset! I very rarely come across guys who dont speak of what they want physically. But but but….I need to be ….Oy.
Like my teachers used to say “Azoi vi se christelt zich, azoi yiddisht zich”… we mimic non-Jews. Sad but true. Probably also related to the pitiful lack of good role models these days…July 20, 2014 3:27 am at 3:27 am #1203019
Just thinking though… if all the girls with great Midos, were raised by parents who taught them Midos, why did their brothers turn out differently????
Perhaps people who taught their kids Midos only have daughters? Or their lessons failed on their sons?July 20, 2014 4:01 am at 4:01 am #1203020wallflowerParticipant
Their sons were raised by a dorm.July 20, 2014 4:08 am at 4:08 am #1203021
It’s because potential mothers-in-law are more picky than potential fathers-in-law, and people judge their own gender more because they think they know everything.July 20, 2014 4:23 am at 4:23 am #1203022
It’s because potential mothers-in-law are more picky than potential fathers-in-law, and people judge their own gender more because they think they know everything.
Lets not heap all the blame on mothers in law. The ratio of guys who openly tell me what physical characteristics they like, to those who don’t tell me what physical characteristics they like, are 95:1. We cant blame only mothers for what their sons are saying.July 20, 2014 4:55 am at 4:55 am #1203023
I was referring specifically to parents.July 20, 2014 6:20 am at 6:20 am #1203024popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Lets not heap all the blame on mothers in law. The ratio of guys who openly tell me what physical characteristics they like, to those who don’t tell me what physical characteristics they like, are 95:1. We cant blame only mothers for what their sons are saying.
You are being misleading. You say they tell you what physical characteristics they like, as if they are giving you a list describing some fantasy person.
Be honest: all of them are just saying one thing. Thin.July 20, 2014 8:23 am at 8:23 am #1203025
No, they also specify height. And favorite color. And which brand of shampoo they use. And whether they use disposable tablecloths. but that’s the mothers.July 20, 2014 9:05 am at 9:05 am #1203026RandomexMember
The ratio of guys who openly tell me what physical characteristics they like, to those who don’t tell me what physical characteristics they like, are 95:1.
“That’s it, man. Game over, man! Game over!”
Unless, of course, popa_bar_abba is right and “all of them are just saying one thing. Thin.”July 20, 2014 9:18 am at 9:18 am #1203027ExcellenceParticipant
It really has nothing to do with the boat on the water. You have to look at the submarine beneath the waves…
We don’t know what we have done in our past lives. From 5600 / 1840 the Rebbe of Ruhzin and other great names have said we are now all flawed souls. We carry heavy baggage from our past lifetimes. Some meet easy, some take longer. Some don’t need to marry. The Heavenly Court watches out every move. We can try to correct ourselves – or they’ll do it for us.
Add the fact that the angel who calls out matches for soulmates doesn’t always get the right one, right away. If he calls out several names until the Court consents, it means the man has to meet them all first.
Don’t despair. They are guiding you where you need to be.
The third side of this triangle is us. We stuff up. We sin. We pay for it. We are SUPPOSED to meet easily – if we don’t we have only ourselves to blame. The External Forces get in the way. Ask me no more on that.
So show the Heavenly Court you are sorry. Help the unwell. Don’t just put coins in a box which probably sits there for months. Secretly send food hampers to the needy. Pray for someone else. Make an impression. And remember – you’ve got part of your last life’s soul in you, causing all this. Help him.
And read the books of the Chofetz Chaim – he tells you have to make a heavy impression. Show people how to speak properly – you will straighten all your roads…July 20, 2014 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #1203028
The one sided dating causes all kinds of problems – the women, many of them, get in a taking mode. When passive, you become picky and hard to please. When you give, you tend to like the one you give to. Also, the guys are just too exhausted from all the work to really concentrate on the date itself.July 20, 2014 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #1203029
Squeak, your comment was right on the mark. Sad, but true. For sure.
But I’m here to agree with RebYid.
Let’s blame this whole crisis thing on the mothers-in-law. Then let’s take all the mothers-in-law, actual, future & potential, and ship them off (with adequate supplies of food & water of course) to a remote, uninhabited island in the Bering Strait. Or the Antarctic, where they shot those penguin films. Somewhere where they can’t get near a cell tower so they’re forced to cease and desist from their endless meddling.
Then let’s sit back and watch all our shidduch problems disappear.July 21, 2014 12:35 am at 12:35 am #1203030
It’s not just the mothers-in-law. It’s also the cats. When there are too many stray cats, people become picky.July 21, 2014 2:32 am at 2:32 am #1203031
Streekgeek+1000July 21, 2014 2:40 am at 2:40 am #1203032
oomis and Streekgeek: +1,000,000,000+
The comment about the guys doing all the work was hysterical.
Sure they do, because most guys get ten times as many dates, while the girls wait for “yes”es.July 21, 2014 4:05 am at 4:05 am #1203033☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Or better middos?July 21, 2014 1:43 pm at 1:43 pm #1203034jewishfeminist02Member
How about this: marry a BT like I did and the mother-in-law won’t even be remotely involved in the shidduch.July 21, 2014 2:19 pm at 2:19 pm #1203035
How about this: marry a BT like I did and the mother-in-law won’t even be remotely involved in the shidduch.
Perhaps, but while I’m in awe of BTs for many other reasons, from my experience, male BTs are just as fussy about appearance. Theyre not that much easier to commit.July 21, 2014 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #1203036
squeak, golfer – before you go and assume where this girl is headed in life, please understand that this is coming from years and years of rejection after rejection. Don’t judge her because you don’t understand her viewpoint, rather maybe try to understand where she is coming from. If anyone here steps in to her shoes for a minute I think you will have very similar things to say about the whole system out there.July 21, 2014 11:13 pm at 11:13 pm #1203037
Streekg, your friend made it perfectly clear that she’s sad and has been rejected. And I truly do feel sorry for her. The question, for all of us when faced with adversity, including your friend, is what we do with our lives and ourselves as the years pass and we still face the same challenge (or nisayon, if you prefer).
It’s disturbing to see your friend wallowing in self-pity, lashing out and accusing others, and wishing misfortune on others. It’s disturbing to see her paint others with a broad brush until she rails against, not just all mothers-in-law, but the whole world (this world’s corrupt, this world’s messed up…).
We live in a beautiful world. There are many fine, kind, generous people sharing this earth with us. We need to train ourselves to see the good in others.
(I’d love to introduce your friend to the last paragraph of the Tefillah Kodem ha’Tefillah written by Rav Elimelech mi’Lizhensk. It begins with- “Aderaba, ten bilibeinu…” Try to find it for her in a Siddur; it’s found in some chassidish/ Sfard siddurim before Shachris. Avraham Fried made a beautiful song out of it, maybe you”ll find it on one of his old CD’s. (In brief – we beg HKB”H to help us see the good in others, to speak to others properly, not chas veshalom to feel or arouse any hatred towards another person, and through this to strengthen our bond with HKB”H.)
I’ve seen people go through many great hardships in life. Sometimes involving finding their zivug, and sometimes HKB”H chooses to send other nisyonos. The people I admire most, and would wish the most to be like, are the ones I see who remain steadfast. Steadfast in their Emunah, in their love of life, in their positive attitude, in their ability to smile and say a kind word to someone else while inside their own heart is broken, in their kindness to others who may seem to be more fortunate than them, in their ability to join in the simcha of others when there is so much sadness in their own lives.
Your friend also shows an astonishing level of egotistic self-glorification when she predicts that in the next generation hers will be the only children with good middos. What??!
I wish your friend Hatzlacha and a happy marriage soon. But, in my humble opinion, she needs to do a small bit of work on her own Middos before she is fit to be an akeres bayis in a solid Jewish home.July 22, 2014 1:05 am at 1:05 am #1203038Pikuach NefeshMember
I got married in my late 20s, dating was tough no question about it when I met my wife it was worth the wait.July 22, 2014 2:27 am at 2:27 am #1203039
Here’s my suggestion to you:
Yes, the system is broken and sick in about 1000 ways. You won’t be able to fix it. Nobody can on their own.
Just go out there and brave it. Do your part. Be focused on your goal, which is to get married and have a family. The main happiness of marriage is just being married and having children. You don’t need a great match, just a half decent person. Don’t look for excitement or great conversations or beauty. Just good enough is good enough.
You’ll meet tons of confused people. This includes the singles, their parents, their friends, the matchmakers. Ignore them. Stay focused on your goal.
Go on the date, Be a mentch, have a parnassah, be kovayah itim, minimize contact with the secular world because they’ll fill your head with nonsense. And get yourself married. You find a decent girl, marry her. Hashem will help you and bring you happiness.
Don’t spend 1000 hours talking about dating. It’s a waste of time. And don’t waste time on people who aren’t serious minded about getting married.July 22, 2014 4:36 am at 4:36 am #1203040
Perhaps, but while I’m in awe of BTs for many other reasons, from my experience, male BTs are just as fussy about appearance. Theyre not that much easier to commit. “
My experience was quite different from yours (and yes, I married the BT, a singularly non-shallow, non-fussy about appearance, emesdig and temimusdig special neshama). People are people, whether they are complete atheists, or the most chareidi of the chareidi. Some are really fine and look beneath the surface. Others are incredibly into externals. It is a universal condition.July 22, 2014 10:19 am at 10:19 am #1203041
Ofcourse, I’m wondering where you are finding these guys. My wife and I set up about 25 dates a year and rarely do the guys ask about looks before the date or comment afterward.
I’ll note that the women are the ones who end the shiduch 90% of the time.July 22, 2014 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #1203042jewishfeminist02Member
MyTurnAtBat, your idea sounds like a recipe for disaster. If we each married the first “half-decent person” who came along, most of us would be either divorced or stuck in unhappy marriages blaming ourselves for a shidduch that was doomed from the start.
Why do you think singles date for so long? Is it possible, chas ve’shalom, that every single person they ever went out with was a terrible person with severe character flaws, who no one in their right mind would want to marry? Of course not. Making shidduchim is about finding the right fit– not just a match based on age and hashkafa, but a true personality match. That is exactly what is so hard to find, and exactly what you are suggesting we chuck out the window.July 22, 2014 1:30 pm at 1:30 pm #1203043
Im kind of with jewishfeminist02 on this one though I do agree with my turnatbat partly dont think a person should just look for a half decent person and marry them Marraige is a special bond that is for life and you only get one womanman so heshe better be special to you or theres going to be alot of unhappy people!However I do agree a person should stay focused on marriage dont get caught up in the side show that the secular world promotes the fireworks major excitment falling in love thats all a bunch of fake terms and just look more some one you kind of click with feel comfortable with enjoy being with and respectJuly 22, 2014 1:46 pm at 1:46 pm #1203044
Ofcourse, I’m wondering where you are finding these guys. My wife and I set up about 25 dates a year and rarely do the guys ask about looks before the date or comment afterward.
So the concept of guys not giving a yes without a picture these days, must be fabricated or just doesn’t exist in your area. Wonderful!!!! (Hmmmmm. Where is your area?)July 22, 2014 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #1203045
golfer – I guess the difference between my perspective of my friend’s email and your’s is that I know her. She is in not “wallowing in self pity” or “lashing out”. She actually sent an addendum to her email a few hours later which I won’t post in full as I’m not sure if she would want that. However, a few points she did mention:
…nor do I walk around sad and depressed (everyone how knows me knows I like to take advantage of my singlehood now!)
I did NOT write this because a mother said NO to me based on looks.
I did however write this because I am part of a shidduch group and I get to hear a lot of crazy questions mothers of boys ask. I also get shidduch calls about my friends and hear crazy questions (yes, I even got “what color hair does she have? NOT BLONDE, RIGHT??” )
And, I am single myself.
So for all those reasons, I decided to get it out there. Of course not ALL mothers of boys are like this. But for the select (few?) who are, I just want them to please realize what’s important in life.
I don’t know where you’re holding in life, but trust me. I’ve been in the shidduch system up until very recently. It’s crazy out there. It almost seems like everyone is playing “survival of the fittest”. It’s downright sickening.July 22, 2014 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #1203046live rightMember
streekgeek: I’m with your friend. She has discovered the power of writing: sometimes things need to be over magnified and exaggerated to give over the targeted message.
SO for those out there who have read it and are focusing on the little details to knock, try to focus instead on the overall message. And im sure it will strike a chord of truth in your heart. Not everyone may be like that, but if you are honest you will acknowledge that there are a fair amount of people out there that are. So just try to make sure you are not one of them.July 22, 2014 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #1203047
Liveright, if you’re writing truth, not fiction, even if you have a targeted message, there’s no need to “over magnify and exaggerate”. In light of what’s going on these days, you’re sounding disturbingly similar to some of our friends at CNN, Sky News, BBC and al jazeera.
And even if fiction is more your style, there’s no need to get maudlin and sink into melodrama.
Yes, writing can be a powerful medium of expression. It can also be foolish, vapid and deceitful. Like that other famous medium of expression- speech, best always to use it responsibly, carefully and truthfully.July 22, 2014 7:21 pm at 7:21 pm #1203048live rightMember
golfer:”…you’re sounding disturbingly similar to some of our friends at CNN, Sky News, BBC and al jazeera.”
that is one strong, hurtful statement. I’m just wondering how you can justify saying that to anyone who is in terrible anguish and pain over what is happening to their brothers and sisters in Israel. as someone wise once said in regards to writing ” best always to use it responsibly, carefully and truthfully”.July 22, 2014 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #1203049dunnoMember
I really don’t get the whole blaming the boy’s mother thing. Why shouldn’t she look for the absolute best for her son? Granted, her son should have the ultimate say in the matter but if they’re both looking for looks, money, brains, etc so be it! If you don’t have one of those qualities you’ll marry the guy out there who’s not looking for that specific thing. And before everyone pounces, I’m a single girl in shidduchim.July 22, 2014 10:08 pm at 10:08 pm #1203050
I’m pouncing anyway, because you’re wrong, and more than being a girl in shidduchim, you’re the future mother of a boy who will be in shidduchim, according to your personality type.July 22, 2014 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #1203051
Singles date so long because they have goyish view of life. If the Mishnah tells us to be married at 18, how can it be that we need to date till we are 30 or more?
I didn’t say that anybody should marry a bad person or a really bad match, just a decent match. That’s all you need in this life as life is a journey and a challenge that is meant to be done in the company of a spouse.
The waiting around for the perfect one is the recipe for disaster. And I know so many cases of people who ruined themselves that way.
I’m curious, since you call yourself a feminist, do you pick up your dates or meet them halfway? Do you split the check or even pick up the check? Do you brave rejection and ask out the guy. In other words, are you really a feminist? If you are married what do you recommend to the women? Do you call for a multi-decade search for a spouse with the men doing all the work?July 22, 2014 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #1203052
Most people would rather remain unmarried than be married to someone they don’t like.July 22, 2014 11:51 pm at 11:51 pm #1203053
Why do you think singles date for so long? Is it possible, chas ve’shalom, that every single person they ever went out with was a terrible person with severe character flaws, who no one in their right mind would want to marry? “
No, they don’t have to have character flaws, but they may be dull in personality, hard to get to engage in a conversation, have no sense of humor, and be clueless as to how to act on a date in other ways. My daughters went out with ALL those guys, often more than once, just to give them the benefit of the doubt that maybe they were nervous on the date, but their original impression was usually the correct one. And lastly, maybe there just is no chemistry whatsoever. No one says someone has to be a movie star in looks, and even really objectively attractive men and women can be unpleasant dates, but there has to be SOME sense of attraction.July 22, 2014 11:55 pm at 11:55 pm #1203054
Dunno, it is one thing for a guy to envision what is attractive to him. It is quite another when his mother is so overbearing that she censors all the shidduch profiles, and makes unilateral decisions about which girl is pretty enough for her son, and THEN allows the shidduch to be made. I know people who do that, and it makes me ill. And the values that this type of activity imparts, are inconsistent with a Torah life.July 23, 2014 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #1203055dunnoMember
Maybe we run different circles but in most cases I know of the guy agrees when his mother nixes a shidduch based on XYZ and if he doesn’t I would think most mother’s wouldn’t stop their son from dating someone they’re interested in.July 23, 2014 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #1203056
oomis can we assume that your daughters are all fascinating and gracious? Perhaps you are being a little critical of the males of our society, something I’m seeing a whole lot of on these pages. The boys are under tremendous pressure in general and on the date in particular. Not so the girls. There’s a post on these pages by a woman who says her son is going off the derech. He’s shomer shabbos but skips scharcharis and sleeps till noon. For a boy that’s off the derech. But that’s what we call a good girl. There’s so much less pressure on the women that it’s easier for them to act a little more together on dates, particular when on that date they are passive and the guy is doing all the driving, paying, and thinking of things to do, facing the parents etc.
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