The solution to the shidduch crisis in one easy step!

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  • #2094060
    Zaphod Beeblebrox
    Participant

    Reinstate polygamy

    #2094196
    ujm
    Participant

    For non-Ashkenazim (Sephardim, Teimanim, Italkim, Moroccans, Persians, etc.) it doesn’t need to be reinstated since it is perfectly fine to engage in today, as it was never stopped.

    #2094200
    yaakov doe
    Participant

    Polygamy has the drawback of multiple mothers in law and it violates American law.

    #2094201
    interjection
    Participant

    That would create a shidduch crisis for men. Some men would end up with multiple wives and others would end up with none.

    #2094208
    ujm
    Participant

    Yaakov: The Fundamentalist Mormons openly practice it in the United States for the last 100+ years without legal issues (as long as it doesn’t involve underage spouses.) Furthermore, Supreme Court precedence from recent years makes clear that the State cannot interfere in such marital/religious rituals.

    Interjection: Even if practiced, only a small minority of men and women would actually desire to engage in such marriages, out of both economic considerations and personal preferences, so it is unlikely to cause a reverse Shidduch Crisis. I don’t foresee a groundswell of women signing up to be a second wife, unless they’re part of the Shidduch Crisis of those previously unable to find a husband.

    #2094211
    zvei dinim
    Participant

    Actually, Rav Zalman Nechemia Goldberg mentioned היתר מאה רבנים as a solution in to the Shiduch Crises in absence of another option.

    I’d imagine it be limited to very special situations.

    #2094267
    ujm
    Participant

    Zvei Dinim: Do you happen to know the Maare Makom for Rav Zalman Nechemia Goldberg or more detailed context of when he permits it?

    #2094305
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    There’s a reason it was exceedingly rare in communities that didn’t have the Cherem and there’s also a reason it was so rare even before the Cherem.

    #2094324
    ujm
    Participant

    I explained it’s infrequency, despite legality, above. Another obvious reason is mathematics. That said, I wouldn’t characterize it as “exceedingly rare”, with Teimanim being Exhibit A. It was not that rare among Teimanim, even in the current modern era. Some even had more than two wives.

    #2094326
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    Only the Teimanim held of polygamy in recent history. And even among them, it wasn’t too common. So yes, “exceedingly rare” in the sense that it was something practiced by a minority of one single Jewish ethnicity.

    #2094383
    yaakov doe
    Participant

    Two or three working wives to support one husband is a great idea.

    #2094455
    Zaphod Beeblebrox
    Participant

    The point is, figure out the heterim, work out the details, make a couple of asifas to explain how important it is, and presto, no more crisis. Anyone who can’t find a shidduch easily can just double up!

    #2094465

    > shidduch crisis for men.

    are you sure that men will see this is as a crisis? You can always regulate it further by increasing age difference in the marriage. Presuming continuing high birth rate in the community, ken irbu, if men will marry at 50, then they’ll probably have 3-4 wives to support their learning, as mentioned above. Someone can do the math. More than 4 may be not OK, we need to be yasharim at least in the eyes of Muslims who see that as a limit.

    Re: Mormons, I don’t think they do this openly in US, some moved to Mexico to avoid Uncle Sam/Rabbeinu Gershom issues. Maybe we can do it also, as Mexico was under Spain, so Sephardi halochot apply.

    #2094498
    ujm
    Participant

    Only the Teimanim held of polygamy in recent history.

    Moroccans and other non-Ashkenazim have living Jews who practiced it. It isn’t only Teimanim.

    So yes, “exceedingly rare” in the sense that it was something practiced by a minority of one single Jewish ethnicity.

    That is a mistaken notion. Au contraire. Enforcing monogomy is what’s practiced by a minority of one single Jewish ethnicity — namely, Ashkenazim. All non-Ashkenazic groups permit plural marriages. In fact, Chacham Ovadia Yosef zt’l was a very vocal supporter of it, and several times, on the record and available on recordings from his famous Motzei Shabbos shiurim insisted that Sephardim today should be permitted to have multiple wives. He was upset that the secular state outlawed it outside any binding halachic process. Indeed, the only reason it tapered off among non-Ashkenazim in general, is because the goyim/secular states most non-Ashkenazim move to in the last number of decades prevents them from engaging in it. From a purely Torah perspective it is fully permitted. If, as today seems very plausible if not likely, the various non-Jewish governments no longer pursue preventing plural marriages, then there’s every reason to believe non-Ashkenazim will immediately re-engage in their natural right they enjoy al pi halacha, already. And as has been pointed out, even for Ashkenazim Cherem R”G was initially setup with a built-in expiration date. Even though it was extended by later Rabbonim, current Ashkenazic Gedolim could decide it has outlived its usefulness and recognize that Rabbeinu Gershom himself set for the Cherem to expire and thus once again permit it.

    #2094575
    kollelman
    Participant

    You’d just fuel the next crisis: The tuition crisis!

    Seriously though, most kesubas explicitly have a clause that the husband won’t take another wife.

    #2094587
    maskildoresh
    Participant

    One is more than enough. BH!

    #2094594
    LAmother
    Participant

    Hmm, maybe it’s my imagination, but seems to be only MEN commenting…good luck guys

    #2094606
    mentsch1
    Participant

    Even if this helps the shidduch crisis, I am reasonably sure it will magnify the divorce crisis

    #2094633
    ujm
    Participant

    “it will magnify the divorce crisis”

    I don’t think so. What I do think is that it’ll make it easier for divorcees to remarry.

    “most kesubas explicitly have a clause that the husband won’t take another wife.”

    And most marriages will remain monogamous. This’ll only be for a minority of marriages.

    #2094655
    mentsch1
    Participant

    LAmother
    I asked my wife for her opinion on the subject (as you suggested we need some female input here)
    She told me she is perfectly fine with helping solve the shidduch crises this way, as long as she gets to choose the woman. She would make sure that she is “super rich and super ugly”

    #2094654
    mentsch1
    Participant

    ujm
    I was actually being tongue in cheek
    but lets take it seriously
    I am divorced/remarried
    most divorced women come with kids ie extra mouths to feed
    If I was in a stable/healthy marriage with my own children of what benefit is it to me to take in another person with kids? This translates into hundreds of thousands of dollars I need to spend on each one to see them through school and marriage etc
    Why would any sane man do such a thing?

    #2094662
    ujm
    Participant

    mentsch1: I’ve mentioned earlier that this inyan will mostly be applicable to wealthy men.

    #2094694
    Zaphod Beeblebrox
    Participant

    @mentsch1 money won’t be an issue because now there will be more people bringing in a salary

    #2094753
    mentsch1
    Participant

    Zaphod
    “money won’t be an issue because now there will be more people bringing in a salary”
    I am guessing you aren’t married.
    Lets do some Math (and I will grant you the following makes a lot of presumptions, but it is fairly illustrative)
    Women are rarely the primary income earners. After all, they are needed at home.
    In a 6 person household (2 parents 4 kids) with the husband earning 100k and the wife 50k. The per person income is 25k.
    Now the husband marries a divorced woman with 4 kids (adding 5 people to the house). The new wife would need to earn 125k to keep the family per person income at 25k (it doesn’t matter what numbers you input, the second wife needs to earn more than the husband). And this doesn’t take into account the need for a larger house (or second home).
    In other words, unless there is significant wealth here, these scenarios are a money drain.

    #2094759

    re> tuition crisis

    just don’t take wives that did not finish high school/seminary yet.

    #2094794
    ujm
    Participant

    mentsch1: Why are you assuming that the divorced women’s children will need to be supported by the step-father (her new husband) rather than by their natural father (her ex)?

    #2094793
    ujm
    Participant

    “just don’t take wives that did not finish high school/seminary yet.”

    Those wives are the most wholesome, temimusdik, happy, Yorei Shamayim and best mothers.

    #2094819
    GadolHadofi
    Participant

    Joseph,

    “Those wives are the most wholesome, temimusdik, happy, Yorei Shamayim and best mothers.”

    The younger, the better, huh? As General Secretary of the Lev Tahor fan club, you’re something of an expert in these matters.

    #2095048
    mentsch1
    Participant

    GadolHadrofi
    Is ujm, Joseph?
    I was wondering what happened to him

    #2095049
    mentsch1
    Participant

    ujm
    “Why are you assuming that the divorced women’s children will need to be supported by the step-father (her new husband) rather than by their natural father (her ex)?”
    Remember
    I am in this parsha and know the reality of exes

    #2095191
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant
    #2095267
    LAmother
    Participant

    Mentch1 i like your wife already! Dont think u can clone her, so stick w her…

    #2095274
    Zaphod Beeblebrox
    Participant

    @mentsch1
    Your whole premise is based on the fact that women are needed in the home. However, if there is more than one woman, they are not all needed and the others are free to go out and work, thus bringing in a substantial amount of additional income.

    #2095290
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @zaphod, I suggest you find some hobbies

    #2095338
    mentsch1
    Participant

    LAmother
    I don’t know
    The super rich part certainly sounds appealing

    #2095336
    mentsch1
    Participant

    Zaphod
    In my scenario she was working, as I said she needs to make more than the husband
    The only way to make the scenario work financially is population control
    And perhaps to an unmarried person this sounds like a dream come true but to anyone older we know the reality

    #2095378
    ujm
    Participant

    mentsch1: How do you think mishpachas with 10 children k’h (with one wife) “make it” financially? Just like they can and do with the RBS”O’s help and Siyata Dishmaya, so can Yiddishe mishpochos with 2 or 3 wives.

    #2095394
    GadolHadofi
    Participant

    Joseph,

    Living down there in your mother’s basement, you may not realize that livelihood doesn’t come easy. Unfortunately, not everyone can pretend to support themselves as a self-taught nuclear physicist and semiconductor engineer like you do.

    #2095430
    mentsch1
    Participant

    Ujm
    Never said it can’t be done
    I asked why would any sane man In a stable relationship do it
    The OP wants to advance finances as a reason and I don’t believe that works in the vast majority of cases
    As for the mitzvah of raising more children?
    Here’s an idea
    Don’t marry that optional second wife and instead use your extra time and energy to learn. It’s a bigger mitzvah.

    #2095484
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    “As for the mitzvah of raising more children? Here’s an idea
    Don’t marry that optional second wife and instead use your extra time and energy to learn..”

    Not sure how using the extra time to learn will somehow result in having more children with Wife No. 1 as distinct from quality time with Wife No 2.

    #2095500

    mentsch > Don’t marry that optional second wife and instead use your extra time and energy to learn.

    If you have 2 boys and 2 (or maybe even one) girl, then you fulfilled minimal pru urvu by both B Hillel and Shammai. If you went thru Tanach and Daf Yomi, you fulfilled minimal learning requirement. Now, you can choose which mitzva you want to do b’hiddur according to your preferences.

    You can also marry a seminary graduate and learn Halocha with her, and a Stern graduate as the 3rd wife and learn Gemora with her.

    #2097617
    Zaphod Beeblebrox
    Participant

    @menstch1
    I never said that finances was a reason to do it. That would be dumb. We do not like to be dumb. We would therefore not do it for that reason. I said that it would solve the shidduch crisis (as clearly stated in the thread title), and you questioned how it would work financially, to which I answered, I thought quite reasonably, that the cost of living, which rises exponentially with each member of the family, would quite simply be offset by the additional income brought in by said members, allowing all the wives with all their kids to be supported comfortably.

    This would especially be true if, as would most likely be the case, not all of the wives have the same amount of children, and a system would be established where the total income of all family members is split equally. If you have other reasons why this wouldn’t work I’d love to hear them, but I’m sorry, finances just isn’t one of them.

    #2097627
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Doing it to solve the shidduch crisis would also be dumb.

    #2097631
    Zaphod Beeblebrox
    Participant

    Really? And why is that?

    #2097633
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    Just to address an issue I haven’t seen brought up yet: if theoretically polygamy would be reinstated, is it clear that both wives would live in the same house?
    It’s one thing for two wives to agree to share one husband; that has its own challenges.
    But why would the women agree to share a same house?
    I would expect that each wife would want to have her own house to raise her kids, with the husband going back and forth.

    There’s a reason co-wives are called צרות we assume they don’t like each other.

    If this is true, then the finances get much harder.

    #2097640
    Zaphod Beeblebrox
    Participant

    Aha. We have a lamdan in the house. I commend you. However, we would only assume your theory to be true inside the previous model of polygamy, where the husband would take a second wife regardless of his first wife’s preferences. However, when the first wife is agreeable, there is no reason why they can not all live together in harmony. The second wife is for sure not an issue , as if she is agreeing to be a second wife in the first place it’s probably only because she didn’t have much success in the regular shidduch market, and she’ll take what she can get at this point.

    #2099970
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant
    #2101698
    Michael 23
    Participant

    Get married

    #2102113

    yes, every wife needs her own house. Do people learn marital halochos before the chuppah?! Maybe you need to learn in a Sepahrdishe place, their Rabonim know these halochot better.

    so, either the husband needs to qualify for 2 mortgages, or the 2nd wife needs to come with her ketubah from her previous marriage.

    #2102153
    tunaisafish
    Participant

    This guy is actually a genius

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