June 19, 2010 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #591802
i want to know – WHY is there such a stigma on therapy and other forms of psychological/emotional health treatment?? is it only “in town” or am i just hearing about it more from there?
i’m asking because i have a friend who really needs the therapy and since it’s such a stigma where she lives in ny, she refuses to even think about it…
that’s a big responsibility on the heads of those who view it as a bad thing; because of them, this girl has almost zero chance of any healthy relationship, including marriage.June 20, 2010 2:47 am at 2:47 am #690363
If your friend needs thereapy, she should get it. She will surely not do well if she proceeds in a relationship when she is emotionally unhealthy. Yes, there unfortunately IS a stigma in many circles, depending on the problem. If something traumatic happened to her or a family member and caused emotional problems for her, that would not be the same type of issue as if she were bi-polar, for example. Many people suffer from anxiety, social or otherwise, and need therapy to help them through it and to learn to deal with it. That should certainly not be stigmatized. Many people are afraid of mental illness (and unfortunately, with good reason at times), so it is not a glatt issue. But no matter what, NO ONE should avoid getting the help they need for an emotional or physical problem.June 20, 2010 3:11 am at 3:11 am #690364popa_bar_abbaParticipant
I’m with oomis on this one.
Your friend must get the help she needs regardless of the consequences. The alternative is far worse.
Regarding the stigma, that seems to have diminished over the past several years.
And it’s ok if the friend is youJune 20, 2010 3:25 am at 3:25 am #690365
i agree that the friend needs to get help; she’s the one who doesn’t.
and b”H the friend is not me; i already went through therapy, that’s why i’m so mad that she won’t and that there’s such a stigma. it’s a built in family issue not something that came up later and not internally caused…June 20, 2010 4:08 am at 4:08 am #690366frumeyidParticipant
People do not realize that mental illness is just like a physical illness. It is quite often a chemical imbalance, and is cured by medication/therapy. Just like someone is not stigmatized if they have a heart condition, they should not be stigmatized for this either.June 20, 2010 4:17 am at 4:17 am #690367I can only tryMember
The following thread is on the same topic:June 20, 2010 4:50 am at 4:50 am #690368YenemMember
Theres a stigma on mental retardedness too. A persons gotta get the help they need…June 20, 2010 5:04 am at 5:04 am #690369
i think that’s retardation…June 20, 2010 5:12 am at 5:12 am #690370
In this thread is revealed;
One reason why some people hesitate to get therapy.
Suppose someone is OK and could get through life without needing therapy.
Now suppose that person growing up gets beat up by bullies and further traumatized by abusive parents and/or other family members.
So now they have problems they need to work out.
Perhaps in this case the best therapy might be learning martial arts which will boost their self confidence, not just in case of physical bullies, but in dealing with people in ANY situation.
But when they go to a therapist or psychiatrist, the first thing they are told is “chemical imbalence” and “you need medication”.
Martial arts would never even be THOUGHT of, by these “professionals”.
They have such linnear inside the box, thinking and often cannot come up with origional and ACTUAL solutions.
And if they did not have a chemical imbalance before being mistreated in life they do not have one now either, unless it is one created by the situations, which would by definition, mean that solving the problems in the situations, would then reverse the chemical imbalance (if one was indeed ’caused’ in the first place) which would in turn mean that solving the situation would be the solution, NOT DRUGS, in this particular case.June 20, 2010 5:47 am at 5:47 am #690371
i don’t think that’s true, hereorthere. i went to therapy, psychologists, social workers, and none of them said anything about chemical imbalance; they just talked things through with me, etc.June 20, 2010 6:00 am at 6:00 am #690372frumeyidParticipant
Chemical imbalance is not something out of this world. When you get excited, angry, sad, or happy; those are all probably a bit different chemically.
Now, the same way you can be sad, and talk yourself out to someone to feel better (talk therapy), many of us would reach for some chocolate instead. It has been proven that pleasure producing things such as enjoyable foods, release endorphins and such, thereby changing the CHEMICAL balance in your brain.
So you can actually change the chemical balance by talking it out, or by eating piece of chocolate. It’s more complicated than that, but it’s a pretty good analogy. Sometimes the therapist will try talk, medicine, or a combination of both…June 20, 2010 6:21 am at 6:21 am #690373kapustaParticipant
Why would anyone have to know she went to therapy? Is she afraid of the stigma where other people are concerned or is there a pride thing for herself…?June 20, 2010 6:33 am at 6:33 am #690374
I have been involved in more then one case where the problem was not ’caused’ by a chemical imbalance and yet drugs were still the first ‘solution’ the experts ran to.
And I know for a fact that in places where people are for various reasons, forced into involntarily, this kind of misdiagnosis, is a daily occurence.
In one well known hospital I know for exampe of a case of someone who was not even supposed to be in there and the head of the phychiatric unit said so, and still the ‘patient’ was almost forced to take drugs, just because “everyone there takes them” according to those who were trying to force this one, to take them as well even though he had NEVER been on drugs and wasn’t even supposed to be there.June 20, 2010 7:38 am at 7:38 am #690375sof davar hakol nishmaMember
i really don’t chap. what connection is there between therapists and psychiatrists? a therapist is there to listen and help someone get past a trauma/painful times…or improve relationships and communication etc. a psychiatrist is someone who deals with people who are nebach mentally ill, and prescribes them medication. What’s the connection? and why would you tell someone you went to therapy? Lets say someone goes through a real trauma. they go to therapy , hopefully it helps and zehu. move on with life. what stigma? a lot of marriages are saved by therapy, a lot of relationships are saved and a lot of people become more emotionally healthy. Now there are therapists who are terrible and can batch up a situation and make it even worst. like everything else, it needs a lot of tefilla and siyata dishmaya. There may be a “stigma” one feels but ignore it. You do what you have to do, you do what you know is right and you don’t have to tell anyone.June 20, 2010 11:27 am at 11:27 am #690376lesschumrasParticipant
, you probabbly think this a just a feminism plot. With HIPAA privacy rules and patient confidentiality, how do you know , for a fact, about all these horror stories? What are your sources?June 20, 2010 1:46 pm at 1:46 pm #690377artchillParticipant
Stigma is wrong. However, the reason the stigma exists is NOT that the person went to counseling, rather it is the fear that the person will use the counselor as a crutch for life and therefore reveal personal details of married life too. Unless the sounseling was for a specific issue that the person was able to work through, people are very concened.
In your friend’s specific case, definitely she should have counseling. Unless she develops defense mechanisms to deal with her hurt, her marriage will be a disater. Plus, a family issue that affected her is of no fault of her own. Her chosson’s family will likely find out the family information when they check her out anyway. She stands a better chance at getting married by having someone explain how “She had some counseling to deal with her meshugah family”, rather than saying, “She thinks her family is totally normal and would love to continue in their footseps!”
How would martial arts help???
The best therapy is learning ASSERTIVENESS, not martial arts.June 20, 2010 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #690379
artchill You are the one expressing hatred not me.
And Martial arts IS assertiveness in the case I mentioned, a person who is physically afraid cannot be assertive if they have been physically abused and do not feel safe in many situations for lack of the skills to physically defend themselves.
Every single person who has been trained a marine has said they have far more self confidence now after having been a marine tyhen they ever had before.
EDITEDJune 20, 2010 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #690380
The case I mentioned, had nothing whatsoever to do with the patient, being sent to any “wrong unit”. He was brought there specifically as a mental patient and was never supposed to be brought in at all for ANY reason.
Artchill you are the one expressing conspiracy beliefs, anyone who does not agree that everytime some “professionsl” says “dope them up” and someone says they were wrong YOU claim THAT is supposedly a conspiracy.
You do not talk about “conpsiracies” when companies like BP are falsly accused of trying to save a few thousand dollars on a billion dollar project which causes an oil spill.
So take you OWN advice somewhere else so people can dael with the real problems that those like have ACTUALLY been involved with that you try and dismiss as some kind of “conpsiracy” to supposedly spread hatred against the Psychiatric industry.June 20, 2010 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #690381
If someone like me who has WORKED in the mental health industry
cannot know what I said and was INVOLVED WITH, goes on there then how can YOU possibly know that it supposedly does NOT happen?June 20, 2010 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #690386
lesschumras I did not know you were a mind reader to know what others were THINKING.June 20, 2010 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #690387
Some have degrees but are not to smart to say the least. I think what’s missing from our generation are caring, smart people who one can go to to work issues through.
The ideal would be that one should feel comfortable enough to work out issues with their Rav or Rebbetzin. But Rabbonim are very busy these days and most of them don’t a have time for such matters and Rebbitzins cannot be counted on for these things either as most people don’t have a kesher with their Rebbitzins.
Maybe one should go to a wise therapist, but I personally don’t believe in therapists. I have had a family member who went to a lot of “wise” therapists who have very good reputations and had them wrapped around their finger. The family member sold their own version of what’s going on and the therapists were giving their advise on how to go about it. I know about it because that family member had me listen to tapes that they taped down ( for various reasons) of the sessions with these therapists and counselors. I had to keep myself back from laughing when I heard the “great” advice to situations that didn’t exist.
I think medication should only be given in SERIOUS MENTAL – NOT EMOTIONAL- instances.
I don’t believe in “chemical inbalance” in emotional instances like depression. There is always an underlying factor, such as when a woman has depression after giving birth. She sleeps little, hormones overwork, has other little kids to take over… a lot of issues here can be too much for a woman too handle and she can break down from being overloaded.
Depression can also come from spitiual emptiness, where one has emunah question and doesn’t know where to get answers.
There are different underlying reasons for depression and I think that medication will cover up, but not help in the long run. One needs to get to the root of the problem to truly be helped.June 20, 2010 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #690388
kapusta, it’s not a pride issue; i got her to go when we were both out of town together for an extended period of time, where there was no chance of anyone knowing. she is afraid of her own parents finding out, and of course they would, b/c they’re overprotective and track all she does, etc., etc. really a tough situation.
artchill, i don’t see it. if that were the case, then the reaction to the word ‘therapy’ would be fear, not disdain.June 20, 2010 10:26 pm at 10:26 pm #690389
she is afraid of her own parents finding out, and of course they would, b/c they’re overprotective and track all she does, etc., etc. really a tough situation.
emoticon, they’re not overprotective. They’re controlling. Control is a form of abuse. Unfortunately, you can sometimes talk to the wall with victims of abuse when you want them to see the light.June 20, 2010 10:37 pm at 10:37 pm #690390HealthParticipant
Emoticon613 -Stigma for mental problems is very real in the frum community everywhere, not just NY. The yidden are way behind the goyim in this. It’s time we should stop and start having more Ahavas Chinum, then trying to find everyone Chesronos!June 20, 2010 11:44 pm at 11:44 pm #690391
As long as people including some of those supposedly promoting mental health, think it is perfectly valid when confronted with people saying things they do not like, to use false charges of mental illness, as a weapon, against others (like if someone says “You are paranoid, you need therapy”) because they cannot logically or factually refute what they are saying….
As long as such attacks are considered valid and supported by those who agree with those who make the attacks, the “Stigma for mental problems”, will never go away.June 21, 2010 12:00 am at 12:00 am #690392kapustaParticipant
emoticon613, is it possible for her to take up something (anything that would normally keep her out of the house for the amount of time a therapy session would take) and instead go to therapy? I’m not advocating her lying to her parents but if thats the only way…
Also, if you (or another friend who shes close with) would tell her parents, would that make a difference?June 21, 2010 2:13 am at 2:13 am #690393wanderingchanaParticipant
It is possible, not preferable but possible, to have sessions with an out-of-town frum therapist over the phone. I know someone who has done this with success. Moderators, is there a way I could pass on this info. if the other party is interested?
Post here.June 21, 2010 2:49 am at 2:49 am #690394
Health- I totally agree with you, that’s why Dor Yeshorim works the way it does. Even being a carrier is a stigma when there is nothing to worry about if the other partner is not a carrier.
The reason why we are behind the goyim is because of the modest way we go about finding a spouse. If a guy is given five names and information of potential dates and one of them has a “stigma”, she will immediately be eliminated.
If the goyim would date the same way as us there would be the same stigmas.June 21, 2010 6:26 pm at 6:26 pm #690395
What I do not like about D”Y is that I feel a person who has paid to have the testing done, should be allowed to know what genes they carry. The same system can remain in place for the matching of two people (“shayach or not shayach”) without telling them what they both share that made it not shayach, but each person should receive a copy of his or her genetic testing results. I would want to know. My kids were tested and they would like to know. Yes, I knwo they could have a doc do it, but those tests do not check for what D”Y does.June 21, 2010 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #690396
I agree that people should be allowed to know their status if they desire but keep in mind that Dor Yeshorim is subsidized and this is how they decided to run it. As far as they are concerned- you can go to a lab (pay full price) and asked to be tested for whatever genetic disease you would like to know the status of.
I know of a large family where the two parents got tested by a lab and got the results. They found this cheaper than each of their 10 kids getting tested through Dor Yeshorim.
Who ever runs it feels that there are reasons why it is better for one not to know their status that outweigh the reasons to know it. One obvious reason is the stigma that will be associated with any person/ family that is a carrier. (One rumor I heard is that if a couple both know they are carriers, get married anyways and R”L have a child with the genetic disease, the insurance company can claim it was a pre-existing condition.)
If a potential couple is found to be incompatible they are notified as to which disease they are both carriers of. The reason being is that there is a false positive result in a small percentage of cases (4% in the case I am familiar with) and the potential couple can go for genetic counseling and have more expensive tests done ($500 each in that instance) that have a much higher accuracy rate.June 21, 2010 8:04 pm at 8:04 pm #690397shimmelMember
If she works , maybe she can work out something in middle of the day, and have it as her lunch hour, so her parents wouldnt need to know about it at all. I know of a friend that arranged it that way and it worked really great!
Also, I can see Why people are afraid of going for help.. People around here when they inquire about a shidduch would dismiss and right away so no to such a shidduch, obv. the girlboy is less than perfect if she/he needed therapy , why should I or my child have to live with someone who has problems? Yes, you’re going to argue that alot of people have problems they just didnt take care of it or u dont know about it.. But, why would u take something you DO know?June 21, 2010 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #690398
I thank you, Dr. Pepper, for your thoughtful reply. BTW, I know a couple that did not get married who had been tested, but were not notified what the incompatibility was, only that it was not shayach. I don’t doubt the validity of the reasoning at D”Y, I just feel it would be better to let people know what is going on with them. Even if the parents themselves are tested, that doesn’t say what the kids may or may not have inherited from them.June 21, 2010 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #690399
about that girl/woman (she really is an adult by now), whatever – she says she’s scared that someone who knows her may see her where she’s not supposed to be in that lunch hour and innocently say to her parents, hey, guess who i saw today, so and so, and then that would be bad. i personally think she’s being a little paranoid, but she says her parents know everyone.June 21, 2010 10:06 pm at 10:06 pm #690400sof davar hakol nishmaMember
shimmel better that they go to therapy and take care of their problems than pretend e/th is perfect and continue on with REAl problems that can many times come into married life and result in difficult shalom bayis. Why? because they cant put their pride and worries aside. We have to do what’s right. No one has to advertise the fact that they went for therapy, but not to go because worries of shidduchim? they’re doing more damage to themselves in the long term. (obviously if it’s a case that needs therapy) and for all those that are worried aobut shidduchim, i know a VERY special girl who a few yrs ago did go for therapy, and she is engaged to a VERY good boy.June 22, 2010 3:32 am at 3:32 am #690401popa_bar_abbaParticipant
If she is afraid of her parents finding out, I think we may have found the source of her problems. That is some seriously unhealthy family dynamic.
I don’t think she needs to worry about being prescribed medication for that. If she is prescribed medication, she should probably switch therapists.June 22, 2010 7:49 am at 7:49 am #690402
she’s not worried that she’ll be prescribed medicine. she’s afraid of her parents and their friends. i know it’s unhealthy – that was her problem in the first place!June 22, 2010 2:44 pm at 2:44 pm #690403shimmelMember
sof davar hakol nishma
You got me all wrong, I agree with you.. since, I myself went for therapy and I think i’m really really normal. 😛
But, unfortunately there are many ppl. out there that think that way. Maybe that person needs someone she respects and whose opinion she really really values to coach her into going.June 22, 2010 2:57 pm at 2:57 pm #690404
oomis1105- My experience with Dor Yeshorim is limited to the two cases I personally know and one conversation with a frum doctor who is associated with Dor Yeshorim (I do not know what his title is or what his role is).
The first case I mentioned some time back in a different thread. A couple was about to get engaged but the Dor Yeshorim results came back positive for them for the same disease. They were told which disease it was and advised that there is a 4% chance of a false positive for both of them (hence a 7.84% chance that they are still compatible) and that they can take a 100% accurate test for $500. (They did and were not compatible.) I guess it’s possible that if there is no chance of a false positive by a particular disease they might not say which disease it is.
The second case was where a couple found out that they were carriers after they were married and were told to stay married. A relative, who knew he was not a carrier but his siblings possibly were, was told that it is Loshon Hora about his family to disclose it to anyone, including his wife. (She found out later but did not hold it against him since he was following his rov.)
A neighbor of ours received a letter from a geneticist which they thought said that their baby had one of the diseases that Dor Yeshorim tests for and they were both tested. They asked me to call a frum doctor who was associated with Dor Yeshorim and speak with him. (As it turns out- they both misread the letter, the letter actually stated that their baby did not have that genetic disease.) This doctor told me that the mission of Dor Yeshorim is not to make people “unmarriageable” but to prevent carriers from marrying each other. There are diseases where one parent being a carrier is enough to pass the disease to a child, but Dor Yeshorim doesn’t test for that since it renders the person unmarriageable.
Apparently they feel that one may be prevented from marrying if it becomes known that they are a carrier.June 23, 2010 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #690405WolfishMusingsParticipant
was told that it is Loshon Hora about his family to disclose it to anyone,
Interesting. Is it also Lashon Hara to say that someone is blind? I’m not certain how this is fundamentally different.
The WolfJune 23, 2010 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #690407
If a person is blind I think we both know how it could affect a relationship.
If a person is not a carrier for a particular disease, the status of that persons’ spouse is irrelevant, so there is no need to inform her.
Letting it be known that members of his family are carriers may create a stigma against the family for a trivial reason.
(Do you honestly feel that everyone would give the same chance to a known carrier as to one whose status is unknown?)
Another case I know of personally- this has nothing to do with Dor Yeshorim, I was consulted to interpret the statistics from the different geneticists involved- the mother of a potential spouse was concerned about the possibility of the other family having the genes for a genetic disease.
Despite the fact that the geneticists were able to prove 100% (not close to 100% but actually 100%) that the disease was a fluke and not hereditary, and despite her family being told by their rov and their own geneticists that not only should they go ahead with the shidduch, but if their own children were in the same situation they would also go for it- they broke it off.
(Interestingly enough, due to the extensive genetic testing, had they gotten married the chances of them having any children with the same disease would have been less than another couple in the general population.
I explained that according to their [distorted] mathematics, the chances of them having a child with the disease was one in 8,000,000,000 (8 billion), the mother explained that she would like her daughter to have 10 kids like she did so the overall odds are only one in 800,000,000 (8 hundred- million).)June 23, 2010 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #690408WolfishMusingsParticipant
If a person is not a carrier for a particular disease, the status of that persons’ spouse is irrelevant, so there is no need to inform her.
I’m not necessarily advocating for (or against) telling. I’m just curious as to the classification of such material as Loshon HaRa.
There are many things that one should not say, but not all of them are Lashon HaRa. Sometimes (as it might be in this case) it’s better to be quiet without it falling under the rubric of LhR.
The WolfJune 24, 2010 12:26 am at 12:26 am #690409mosheroseMember
“I’m just curious as to the classification of such material as Loshon HaRa. “
If the rav says its lashon hara then its lashon hara. Why are you causing problems by questioning the rav?July 20, 2010 12:56 am at 12:56 am #690410Ben LeviParticipant
Personally I would be hesitant to allow my child to go to therepy as according to research the rate of chid abuse among therepists is quite alarming to say the least. In the report issued by William Donohue Phd. on behalf of the Catholic League (2004)which seems to be very credible and is well sourced the numbers given are between 3 and 12 percent!
Basiclly if I was convinced that is the ony way to go and the person/child who really need it I would do a grea amount of research and send them but if it was not an extreme case probably not.July 20, 2010 3:19 am at 3:19 am #690411aries2756Participant
Ben Levi, although the session itself is private, a parent should be able to wait in the waiting area outside the actual office. Any therapist that does not have a waiting room should be nixed for children. Pay attention to your child’s expression and body language when s/he emerges from the session. Don’t get chummy with the therapist, they are there to do a job and that is to help your child. Ask your child how it is going and if they feel they are being helped, if the therapist is a good shiduch for them and if they are making progress. Not every therapist is the right one for the patient, you might have to switch once or twice till you see real progress. Or your child might be lucky and the first one might work. If you get chummy with the therapist and s/he is one of those disgusting abusers then you are helping them by building a relationship with them so you trust them more than your child. Your child will then be afraid to tell you the truth if they are touched inappropriately.
The point is that if your child needs therapy then that is what they need and that is what you must provide for them. If they need a dentist, or an ophthalmologist you provide that as well. The therapy sessions are confidential. Unless your child has a real issue that carries with them into adulthood, marriage and their ability to maintain a relationship and responsibilities without medication then there is no reason that therapy in adolescence must be discussed with anyone at all.July 20, 2010 11:17 pm at 11:17 pm #690412Jewish courageMember
There are many possible problems with therapy and therapists! Therefore, there should be a stigma for it! Therapists are the answer to have more freedom to do forbidden things (TV, movies, internet, etc.) while trying to prevent the destruction they cause! There are times therapists are needed but it is way over used! Another thing, adding vinegar to the best wines will ruin it no matter how much you paid for it! So to, taking goishe psychology courses will affect your hashkofos no matter how big a talmid chochom you are! You don’t take antibiotics unless it’s absolutely necessary, the same with therapists!July 20, 2010 11:29 pm at 11:29 pm #690413Max WellMember
Very well said. You are 100% correct.
Thank you.July 21, 2010 12:43 am at 12:43 am #690414
Jewish courage, I totaly agree with you.July 21, 2010 2:23 am at 2:23 am #690415aries2756Participant
I don’t agree at all! People are so stressed these days, kids included. I would rather see people go to therapists to vent their issues and to discuss their problems than to discuss it with friend who they think will keep their confidence which is rarely the case especially with kids. Friends today gone tomorrow.
When you go to therapy you have the opportunity to talk things out in the privacy of the four walls with the security of the confidentiality it provides. In addition, the therapist will help you understand the situation from all perspectives and from the points of views from different angles which can help a person let go of pain, re-evaluate the situation without pressure of being right or wrong and decide if and when they wish to move forward. They also have the support they need to make appropriate decisions for themselves. THERAPISTS do not TELL a patient what to do. They help them come to their own conclusions. They might make suggestions, such as “spend more time with your spouse”, “speak to a RAV”, “take a class in Shalom Bayis”, “tell your parents how you feel”, etc.
The therapists main job is to allow you feel what you are feeling and to help you understand why you are feeling that way. Then they will help you to figure out ways to feel better.July 21, 2010 3:29 am at 3:29 am #690416Ben LeviParticipant
Your point seems to be that people nowadays do not have a wise and trusted friend. If so a therapist will not help though the importance of a friend has been stated by Chazal “asay Lecho Rav UKinei L’chu Chaver” I higly doubt Chazal were referring to tharapists!July 21, 2010 4:22 am at 4:22 am #690417
I hate to break it to you, but speaking to a rav does not always help. A rav is not a therapist just because he is qualified to answer halachic shailos. I might ask a rav to recommend a good doctor to me if he knwos of one, but I would never view him as my therapist if I needed one. You don’t go to a cardiologist to do your root canal, though the cardiologist might be brilliant and tops in his field.
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