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You brought me a moshel, I’ll give you a raayeh. You know the story about the person mentioned above is true, because there is no mekor more neemon than the Rebbe. Yet when you are talking to the snags, you feel the need to equivocate – it’s a story you heard, so you know what I’m referring to, trying to be mashma that you, the enlightened Lubavitcher chossid, of course dont believe such things, and you give every two-bit rosh yeshiva equal standing with the Rebbe, Chad vesholom.
Two points(Unable to address everything ):
As CS willing to admit Others from previous generations May have exceeded the Rebbe Proves
she’s already more moderate and and Mild than Avg.Go to your local fellow without a filter & ask
2: “Shofech Domim” probably referring to Muhammad
TT: “Yes, my kashe was spiked – with Chassidus, with Emunas Cahchomim, with bittul!”
Bittul is the one that stands out here the clearest.
Uncle Ben: “Mr. Tomim; I have yet to hear a mekor in the Torah for a designated live individual as Moshiach who thereafter died and is still designated as Moshiach min meisaya.”
Where have you been living for the last quarter century. He’s not dead!
DY- Motivations are inherently suspect when dealing with chabad. Believe it or not, my wife is a baalas teshuva who started becoming frum through lubavitch. B”H her family chapped things were weird and got out before they got indoctrinated. Hear from an insider before you write questioning motives off as being somehow immoral. Their motivations couldn’t be worse.
“Stand proud and sing chassidei Chabad onu talmidei hoRebbe ashreinu”
I think you give yourself away here, as the correct words are Chayolei HoRebbe, not Talmidei. Talmidei was popularized (and perhaps invented by) Avraham Fried. Seems you heard of many Lubavitcher musogim from amol, but this song you know not from Lubavitch but from Avraham Fried. In what year did you “graduate” Lubavitch?
TomimTihye, your posts are mostly unintelligible, but I think I understand enough to denounce it as avodah zarah.
Time for Truth: TT has already acknowledged that OOT’s surmise was correct.
“We don’t face communal/ familial ostracism etc.”
You’re still missing the point people are making with that accusation. Bringing Chabad’s relationship with chilonim as a proof doesn’t help you. As everyone can plainly see from this thread, Chabad’s ability to relate with other groups of frum yidden is non-existent. Chabad is definitively separate from the rest of the frum community; you can chose to blame whichever side you like for that, but it’s the reality. Case and point, you just admitted that your own parents are/were Litvish, yet you have a very low understanding of the Litvish world. You said earlier that you like the opportunity the CR gives to be educated about Litvish shittas; how can it be that you need the CR for that when your own parents are Litvaks? Did you just cut off all contact with them?
Finally, in full fairness, I’m glad you finally admitted your approach to meshichism. I will not ask you to expound any further on that, as it seems we got our answer. I know that shluchim are not supposed to talk about/admit to these things, so thank you for breaking protocol for our benefit.
CS, There is question left in the gemora if Moshiach is from the living or from the dead. Hashem does not create a miracle to revive someone from the dead for no reason. It says that Moshiach was born on Tishoh Beov. As long that this is true, when the Rebbe was alive, even though he never publicized it, it was believable. Now that he died, it is not belivable. True, there is a view from Hilel that techiyas hamesim will occur together with the coming of Moshiach according to the Abarbanel, he is a daas yachid which is mostly not accepted. The accepted view is that there will be forty years between the two.
My point was to explain why I hold of my Rebbe as I do. My point is not to force you unwillingly, by intellectual gun point type evidence, to see my Rebbe as the Moshe Rabbeinu of the same way as I do, because that is not the way of Torah.
it would do no such thing. And if you were honest with yourself you would recall that the question that you prefer not to answer was to verify why it is *permissible* for YOU to hold that way. So nothing less than the explainations would be an appropriate answer.
“True, there is a view from Hilel that techiyas hamesim will occur together with the coming of Moshiach”
As far as my understanding goes, it’s still a stretch to say this means he believed the Moshiach could be someone not living. Is it explicitly stated anywhere that “by this shittah, Moshiach can be a dead person,” or is that strictly Chabad and Christianity’s way of learning?
Neville – “is that strictly Chabad and Christianity’s way of learning?”
But I’m the one with the Ahavas Yisroel problem?!
Shlucha and Sechel – bottom line, you are trying to win people over, but you can’t bring people to the Emes by using Sheker. A simple yes or no question – do you have any respect for AK (I won’t even get started with ES)? If the answer is yes, you are the ones being mevazeh the Rebbe after what he said about him, not me. If the answer is no, why do you keep dodging the question, trying to make the people here think that you do have respect for them. That does not bring kovod to Lubavitch, that those who bashmutz our Rebbe (and worse) we give any kovod to!
“is that numerous Gedolim who were contemporaries of the Lubavitcher Rebbe did hold him in very high esteem and regarded him as a Gadol B’Yisroel.”
And also Delusional
A message was sent to him Saying As much from his former Close AssociateCS: “Rso with regards to other exceptions to the rule of yeridas hadoros I would point you to Rashbi among others.”
Please supply a source. And if you manage to do that please explain how you can then say that just as Rashbi was an exception so is someone else who I choose.
That’s like saying that since Chazal explained that cooking on Shabbos is forbidden I extend that and say that cooling things down is also forbidden.
Btw the story you bring about a friend who found that the meshichisten have valid Torah sources/proofs is really worthless if you don’t tell us that proofs. Anyone can claim anything using that method.
TT: “A simple yes or no question – do you have any respect for AK (I won’t even get started with ES)? If the answer is yes, you are the ones being mevazeh the Rebbe after what he said about him, not me.”
For those of us who don’t have direct quotes, how about you tell us what your rebbe said about them?
@ IITFT
Me: “numerous Gedolim who were contemporaries of the Lubavitcher Rebbe did hold him in very high esteem and regarded him as a Gadol B’Yisroel.”
You: “And also Delusional”
Why is that relevant? Rav Yaakov Emden held Rav Yonasan to be a follower of Sht”z. The Rambams seforim were burned in the streets by leading Rabbis as works of heresy. The fact that numerous Gedolim who were contemporaries of the Lubavitcher Rebbe held him in very high esteem and regarded him as a Gadol B’Yisroel is a matter of historical record.
Rso,
R Shach is ES and everyone knows what he said
A& is R Aharon Kotler, not sure what he said
Rso: “For those of us who don’t have direct quotes, how about you tell us what your rebbe said about them?”
Vechi deilotor ani loch?! Those who need to know, know.
I think some of us are just beside ourselves. Some poster comes on spewing sick garbage. We all expect to hear him denounced for saying lies and insanities but instead Seckel Hayashar says he must have intimate exposure to Lubavitch, and CS’s problem is that he isn’t nice?! So it’s not lies or wrong or insanities, it’s just not how we speak to a yid….
Speechless
So like I said, it’s all stuff you believe and say, but not in front of people who will mind.
Shlucha, let me tell you a story. There was once a feineh Yid who was known by the name of his sefer,Chazon Ish. After he was nifter, Folye Kahan was farbrenging, and he mentioned that now that the CI is in gan eden,and he sees the truth, he is jealous of even the little Lubavitcher children who have the zechus to learn chassidus Chabad.the world was in a tremendous uproar, because certain people thought the CI was beyond such criticiams. They wrote into the Rebbe, expecting him to rebuke Kahan for his comments. I stead, at a farbrengen, the Rebbe explained that he was exactly right!
Wait! Ahavas Yisroel! Keilim detikkun! Etc.
The obvious answer is that the keilim detikkun are just a method for presenting the oiros detoihu, but they dont distort or pervert the oirois chas vesholom! I am not telling you that you need to start every conversation with a snag by telling him in ponim arayn what you think of his gedaylim, but neither may you lie – by commission or ommission- and make it sound chas vesholom as if the Rebbe, and therefore Lubavitch, are machshiv those who are not deserving of kovod!
Oh! You really fell off the deep end! A pity that Lubavitch is without a central Manhig/Rebbe for the past 25 yrs! Nobody to straighten out the farblonjete chasidim like TomimTeHuje (look it up in Hungarian). I think you have become so enraptured with your “krummer seichel”, that you don’t see the straight path anymore.
As we approach 500 posts on this thread I think it’s time to put this discussion in perspective. There a a vort from either the Sfas Emes of Gur or the Ahavas Yisroel of Vizhnitz on the pasuk, Be’achris Hayomim Ho’emes Nederes. “Yeder Tzadik bakumt a giluy fun himmel az zayn derech iz di richtigeh derech, uber der klugeh Tzadik farshteyt az yeder Tzadik bakumt der zelber giluy!”
So it’s high time for TomimT and any Lubavichers who share his religious superiority complex to grow up.@Syag,
Whatever I say you will always twist my words. The fact remains, that TT evidently must have some prior intimate exposure to Lubavitch in order to be familiar with certain sayings and concepts. For example, “The Kasheh of Tomchei Tmimim” – you won’t find that online or on Wikipedia. One must have at some point been personally exposed to Lubavitch to hear things like that. Me pointing out that fact is no defense of TT, and my problem isn’t just with where he’s spouting his rhetoric, but his very way of thinking. Chassidus Chabad has no expectation on the rest of Klal Yisrael do don a Kapote and smash their hats, or eat the Kasheh of Tomchei Tmimim (seemingly, TTs version of sprinkling “holy water”).Shluchim aren’t out there to “convert people to Chabad” they’re there to influence people to increase in their Torah and Mitzvos. Hafotzas HaMayonois doesn’t mean making people Lubavitch, it means spreading the teachings of Chassidus to the general public, and that is not limited to Chassidus Chabad, other Chassidus also perfectly fits the bill, whether it be Noam Elimelech, Kedushas Levi or Sfas Emas, doesn’t make a difference.
I think it is worthwhile to translate what Uncle Ben is saying in the name of the Sfas Emes of Gur or Ahavas Yisroel of Vitzhnitz: At the end of the days, truth will be lost, every tzadik gets a revelation from heaven telling him that his way is the right way, but the clever tzadik understands that every tzadik has the same revelation.
AMEIN! And we “always” lived happily ever-after.
NOT B4 bias haMoshiach.I didn’t twist anything, and I didn’t say (or think) you were defending him at all! My comment was that instead of telling us that he made up all those crazy things, you stated that he attained them from within Lubavitch. Perhaps you should have added some of these comments to your previous post so that we can be told that , unlike CS who seems only to be upset with his approach, Chabad does not subscribe to his comments. There have been some very disturbing revelations on this thread and I’m not twisting anything, I’m just listening to what your colleague has been teaching us.
One more thing – I assume you stayed out of this thread because it was such a disaster and I respect that. You seem committed to what you believe to be true. In the last thread, however, you had a tendency to lose your temper at anyone who defended their truth, and accuse everyone who didn’t accept your views as anti Chabad. I am not anti Chabad. I have close ties with some Chabad it’s and we never speak of controversy. I never believed the rants I read here and stayed out of contentious conversations. That being said, the words CS expressed on this thread and last have convinced me that there are some serious issues. And the derogatory references to gedolim outside Chabad has been the nail in the proverbial coffin. I don’t need to be called a hater for coming to that conclusion, I don’t expect you to like it but that’s just the fact. It won’t change my relationship with my Chabad coworkers or friends , although it will, unfortunately, make me wonder what they say about my community behind my back.
I wish you well, despite my newfound knowledge, and I expect nothing less from you.@ CS
Me: “Step 1 – None of those abilities are unique to a Tzadik (meaning that even non-tzadikim can have them)
Step 2 – Therefore having these abilities does not establish one who possesses them as a Tzadik.”You: “I am not sure about this – I have seen inside shaar hayichud vihoemuna where the Alter Rebbe states that Hashem increases emuna in this world by revealing His abilities through the tzadikim and the miracles they do. This would imply that only tzaddikim do miracles but I’m open to hearing other sources that show otherwise, if you have. In a similar vein, tzadik gozer vHKBH mekayem etc. Yes every Jew has the ability to rise above nature by adhering to Torah and mitzvos, but to promise and come through on miracles, and to decree them with the certainty that Hashem will fulfill seems to be something unique to tzaddikim.”
You know that it is not unique to Tzaddikim from the Parsha in Chumash re: Navi Sheker. The point is that EVEN a navi sheker can affect miracles and know hidden things. One does not have to intentionally seek to use the s”a, one can be misled (and himself not even realize it). Now, I’m NOT saying that the last Lubavitcher Rebbe was misled in this way. What I am saying is that since such abilities are not unique to Tzadikim they cannot be used as a criteria.
The above quote from the first Lubavitcher Rebbe does not contradict this at all. The fact that Hashem increases emuna in this world by revealing His abilities through the tzadikim and the miracles they do has nothing to do with what criteria ought to be used for accepting them as Tzadikim in the first place.
Next
Me: “What does exist is that numerous Gedolim who were contemporaries of the Lubavitcher Rebbe did hold him in very high esteem and regarded him as a Gadol B’Yisroel. This is a matter of record and is undisputable. You have cited many examples of this in previous threads. So, if your proposition would have been “The Lubavitcher Rebbe was a Gadol B’Yisroel” I would agree that the evidence you cited in previous threads is relevant to accepting THAT proposition. But that is not what you are proposing.”
You: “Ironically that’s what I was meaning to propose, I just used a more lubavitch term which truly means more what you say.”
Given you posts in this (and the last 2 threads) don’t believe that you are proposing to regard the Last Lubavitcher Rebbe as merely a peer of the other Gedolim of his generation. I think what you actually mean is this
1) The last Lubavitcher Rebbe was a Gadol B’Yisroel (as per the above criteria), and
2) Hashem increases emuna in this world by revealing His abilities through the tzadikim and the miracles they do
3) Given point 1 and 2 above (IN THAT ORDER) the miracles and accomplishments of the last Lubavitcher Rebbe where indicative of unique greatnessYou: My point was to explain why I hold of my Rebbe as I do…
It’s true that we shouldn’t determine what is right and wrong based on winning debates and skilled rhetoric. However, the standard one proposes to adapt should be objectively reliable and applied consistently. Having the matter be a personal decision doesn’t change that.
You: In fact that’s precisely how we’ve determined who’s who in the Torah world, who’s a tzadik etc throughout all the generations: generally by two categories:
1) how many Torah yidden accept their teachings and follow them long term (the Rambam was originally highly controversial but is now universally accepted and acclaimed as a tzadik)The determination is not made based on the number of adherents. For example, the Karaites outnumbered traditional Yidden in many communities for a not insignificant period of time. The Rambam controversy was resolved in large part due to the Rambans involvement and R’ Yona’s retraction. It is true that ultimately there is historical closure but it often takes multiple generations to happen and is therefore not a useful criteria.
You: 2) other tzaddikim who can see soul levels testifying about the status of said individual.
Since we regular people have no way of knowing who can actually do this I don’t see how this can be a criteria.
You: But it is done because it resonates with the neshama…
Everyone over the age of 15 has had experiences with things resonating with them and later realizing that they were objectively 100% wrong. So that criteria is not reliable either.
Sechel: “eat the Kasheh of Tomchei Tmimim (seemingly, TTs version of sprinkling “holy water”).”
Wow. So something that was so choshuv by Rabboiseinu Nesieinu that it deserved a havtocho that someone who does it will not die without teshuva, you compare to an avoido zoro R”l. Are you truly so desperate to find favor by the snags that you will abandon your own hekdeishois?! Nebech.
And note that you dont either disagree with anything I’ve said, you only deflect and change the subject. You know good and well that as a chossid of the Rebbe there is no other way to see those people.
TT:
“Wow. So something that was so choshuv by Rabboiseinu Nesieinu that it deserved a havtocho that someone who does it will not die without teshuva, you compare to an avoido zoro R”l. ”No, I’m saying that you seem to think that by virtue of once being a Lubavitcher or eating the Kasheh in Tomchei Tmimim you now have license to – in essence – slander the Rebbe, and slander other segments of Klal Yisrael.
And while we were on the topic, I made a point that we’re not out there to get people to eat Kasheh of Tomchei Tmimim, ie, become Lubavitch.
@ TT
“And note that you dont either disagree with anything I’ve said”
Do you not read English?
SH said: HaMayonois doesn’t mean making people Lubavitch, it means spreading the teachings of Chassidus to the general public, and that is not limited to Chassidus Chabad, other Chassidus also perfectly fits the bill, whether it be Noam Elimelech, Kedushas Levi or Sfas Emas, doesn’t make a difference.
CS said: And youre upset I call him Rav Shach? Guess what? If he was Joe Shmoe he wouldn’t warrant a mention of any type at the Rebbe’s farbrengen. It was precisely because he was a Torah leader that the Rebbe cared to strongly disagree with his words.
While we’re talking about disagreeing or even criticizing Gedolim, MeiInyanei DeYomah, I see here in the CR, as well as in comments on YWN news articles about Anti Vaxxers, that some commenters have very sharp words to say about certain Gedolim due to them discouraging Vaccination. Specifically, a Godol from Lakewood ( not positive who that is, perhaps Rav MK, can someone confirm or deny?) and a Godol from Philadelphia, and his Rebbitzin, שיאריכו ימים. I haven’t seen a huge outcry on those people who say very bad things about them.
(Full disclosure – I’m vehemently Pro Vaccination, as we should all be. ואיכ”מ.)
CS: “Listen, what made the Rebbe so great? As you said mishichmoi ulmaala etc? It was his ahavas yisrael for every yid no matter who and what level they were.”
Except for “AK”, “ES”, Satmar and all the others who he denigrated.
This claim of the Lubavich rebbe loving every Jew is something that is said so often that people accept it as fact without any proof. How do we know that he loved EVERY Jew? How do we even know that he loved MANY Jews?
Even if trying to be mekarev them was altruistic (which I have “questioned” in an earlier post) that doesn’t show the he loves every Jew, and certainly in light of the fact that he clearly wanted to be Mashiach – him, no one else – makes it very easily possible that it was self-serving.
“Even when the Rebbe spoke about Rav Shach, he never attacked him personally”
That’s not true. While he may not have mentioned him by name he did refer to him as Seridei Choshech.
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