November 21, 2018 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #1628607
☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
I must comment on this:
Right. And that’s exactly why a certain person decided were all kofrim BEFORE gimmel tammuz (for unknown reasons, his own followers were left scratching their heads)…
1. Many were not scratching their heads
2. חכם עדיף מנביא
You somehow twisted his cleverness in recognizing the (institutional) insanity in Chabad as derogatory, when in fact it shows his prescience.November 21, 2018 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #1628616
5ish, triggered much?
I don’t have anything against any other philosophies. Sorry not everyone falls for your false narrative that Chabadniks are the victims. You’ll have to go in for a software update and be programmed to use other arguing points.November 21, 2018 7:29 pm at 7:29 pm #1628640
DY, There is a story were a king wanted to test Rebbe R’ Yonasan Eibshutz telling him that you are a chacham who is greater than a navi, so tell me how will I enter the palace. The Rebbe wrote down on a piece of paper מלך פורץ גדר a king breaks a fence and gave it to the king, so the king thought that the door or wndow is obvious. He went and created a new opening through the wall proving that חכם עדיף מנביא.November 21, 2018 7:29 pm at 7:29 pm #1628647
Shlucha: “the Rebbe is the Rebbe of us all.”
Exactly! Regardless if people recognize that fact or not.November 21, 2018 7:29 pm at 7:29 pm #1628620
DY obviously I disagree with your comment, but I appreciate it nonetheless (if that makes sense)November 21, 2018 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #1628690
“Exactly! Regardless if people recognize that fact or not.”
As a female, I would not take for myself a Rav whose wife was anything less than the epitome of tznius.November 21, 2018 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm #1628712
TomimTeHuje – right on! Tomim Huje, off the deep end…November 21, 2018 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #1628721
☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
DY obviously I disagree with your comment, but I appreciate it nonetheless (if that makes sense)
I guess whether it makes sense depends on what you appreciate…November 21, 2018 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #1628725
I think that all the upheavals in the world – both Jewish and secular – is to bring about the Gemara “ma’amid aleihem melch kosho keHaman” so that EVERYONE should beg for the Geulah! Things are going from bad to worse. Out in the general word, fighting within nations, internal unrest in the biggest and strongest dictatorships; here in the US, we have natural disasters, one after another – droughts, fires, and floods, not to say anything about our refugee crisis, AND the rising Antisemitism.
Hashem is shaking the world, so we should wake up and acknowledge that He is the ONLY ONE who can take us out of this bitter Galus.November 21, 2018 11:09 pm at 11:09 pm #1628761
Couldn’t you use a more spiritual nomer
This nomer feels like your head is steeped too much in the ‘goyisha’ culture.
Boruch HoffingerNovember 22, 2018 12:18 am at 12:18 am #1628767
samthenylic, What you are saying is a Klei Yokor Breishis 15:14 on ופרצת ימה וקדמה based on
Tehilim 44:26-27 Meshiach will come when we are on the lowest level and the only hope is Hashem.November 22, 2018 10:49 am at 10:49 am #1628978
laskern- “Uforatzto … etc,” is a Lubavicher march – LOL! But seriously, it is also siyum of Ms’ Sota and other places in Sha”s. So, what is keeping us back? Moshiach wants to come, “v’ein hadovor toluy ela b’teshuva”.
B TW, you were by R Holzer? I think I know you.November 22, 2018 11:59 am at 11:59 am #1629095
@boruch – Exactly. BTW it’s yeshivish rockstar, not yeshiva.
CHabadshlucha – The story of Chabad is one of the biggest proofs to Rav Shach’s greatness. (Conversely, the oppositon to the peace process and commitment to shleimus haaretz was one of the biggest proofs of the Rebbe’s greatness.) Both are cases where Daas Torah saw the future.November 22, 2018 2:07 pm at 2:07 pm #1629112
samthenylic, I learned by Rav Holtzer ztz’l in 1959 who thought me my bar mitzva peshetel. BTW there is an intersting story about him. When he was a young man he was called in to serve in the army. He went to his rebbi Rav Yanoson Steif ztz’l who gave him an incantation to say. Before entering to see the doctor, he said
עיזא דבי טבחא שמינא מיניה the goats in the slaughter house are fatter than I am. At ounce, his hand developed green swelled blotches. The doctor seeing him threw him out, telling him don’t infect us. When he went outside, it disappered.November 22, 2018 2:07 pm at 2:07 pm #1629114
samthenylic, What is keeping him back is sinas chinom among groups, chasidim and misnagdim and chasidim among themselves. מה ה’ אלקך שואל מעמך כי אם ליראה what is the difference how, as long as we arrive to the right goal.November 22, 2018 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #1629185
laskern – ask mods for my e-mail
Still, the root of all evil is sinas chinom, we can not bear someone else enjoying it. In Hell everyone has a plate of soup, the spoons have lo-o-ng handles.. What?! I have to feed someone else & not be able to feed myself?November 22, 2018 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #1629255
It is Time for TruthParticipant
” a certain person decided were all kofrim BEFORE gimmel tammuz ”
As if he was the only one?
HaRav Yaakov Kamenetsky Predicted these developments & condemned
The Chazon Ish said also that a proper BALANCE between positive hatred of evil and love of goodness in tandem would bring redemption from golus
laskernNovember 22, 2018 6:16 pm at 6:16 pm #1629259
It is Time for TruthParticipant
” shleimus haaretz was one of the biggest proofs of the Rebbe’s”
Is that so?
the Gaza settlements will never be abandoned?November 23, 2018 12:03 pm at 12:03 pm #1629550
” a certain person decided were all kofrim BEFORE gimmel tammuz ”
Why does that even matter? If people claim we’re in a state of Geula when none of the criteria are met, they have to expect to be accused of kefira.
I will say, many of the Dati Leumim make basically the exact same claim (as you’ve seen here even on this thread) with far less backlash. I do think Chabad is a little unfairly singled out in that sense.November 23, 2018 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #1629639
If I believe something & keep it to myself, iz a halbe zoro. However, if I try to prostelize about it & make others believe it that is a NO NO!
Let them keep their “deos kozvos” to themselves, & not be missioners and make an A Z of their rebbe.November 24, 2018 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #1629674
A”Z mamash tekef umiyad mamash. Didn’t you see the video of Cunin from LA (one of, if not THE, most powerful chabadsker on the west coast) proclaiming unambiguously that the Rebbe runs the world? Oh, ya missed that one?November 24, 2018 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #1629673
Time for truth,: No, predicting that abandoning them would be disastrous, unlike the litvishe gedolim, who thought it would be acceptableNovember 24, 2018 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #1629737
DY I appreciate the concern. The rest I think it’s completely I applicable. In fact, I’m happy to address all the perceived issues concerning mainstream Chabad quiet meshichistim and show that its pretty baseless, or at most there are differing opinions which are both fine. Only if anyone interested and think it would be helpful to understand. Definitely not looking to push that.November 24, 2018 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #1629741
“I think that all the upheavals in the world – both Jewish and secular – is to bring about the Gemara “ma’amid aleihem melch kosho keHaman” so that EVERYONE should beg for the Geulah! Things are going from bad to worse. Out in the general word, fighting within nations, internal unrest in the biggest and strongest dictatorships; here in the US, we have natural disasters, one after another – droughts, fires, and floods, not to say anything about our refugee crisis, AND the rising Antisemitism.
Hashem is shaking the world, so we should wake up and acknowledge that He is the ONLY ONE who can take us out of this bitter Galus.”
Exactly! The coming of moshiach and how exactly the process unfolds depends on us! It can be pleasant or scary. That’s why I strongly believe in being proactive and encouraging more yidden to learn Torah, do mitzvos, grow constantly myself, and daven for the Geula for the right reasons. I mean if we’re gonna have it anyway and gonna ask for it anyway why wait until we need to for not positive reasons? Let’s daven for the right reasons!November 25, 2018 12:06 am at 12:06 am #1629799
“Let’s daven for the right reasons” Hamispalel b’ad chavero v’hu zorich lleosa dovor, HU ne’ene techila” Let us daven for Hashem to free HIMSELF from the “chains of galus” and so, He will answer us faster. Let’s forget about WHO Moshiach might be, and that we are hurting. Let’s prioritize zaar haSchina. Uvo l’Zion goel.November 25, 2018 6:02 am at 6:02 am #1629748
“Why does that even matter? If people claim we’re in a state of Geula when none of the criteria are met, they have to expect to be accused of kefira.
I will say, many of the Dati Leumim make basically the exact same claim (as you’ve seen here even on this thread) with far less backlash. I do think Chabad is a little unfairly singled out in that sense.”
Why does it matter? Because people have been making such a big deal that Chabad thinks that their Rebbe can still be moshiach after gimmel tammuz happened.
You would think that at least they’d all be gung ho about it before gimmel tammuz but that clearly wasnt the case.
In fact there are three possibilities mentioned in Torah sources of where moshiach can come from 1) from the living (the gemara) 2) from the dead (Abarbanel is one source) 3) revealed, concealed, revealed again (see last rashi in Daniel for one of those).
We won’t know exactly how it unfolds until it does. We just know who we can consider a worthy candidate.
As far as being in a state of Geula see the op. It doesn’t mean halachically.November 25, 2018 7:49 am at 7:49 am #1629879
I’m ready to start with a list of Yes or No questions – in no particular order – for CS (and TT or any other lubavicher if they are interested). Please just answer Yes or No BEFORE elaborating. I would welcome others adding to the questions. Note one important point: using Lubavich sources or explanations does not hold water when trying to show other non-believers that your view is correct.
(Any question left unanswered will lead me to conclude that CS et al are too scared to publicly answer what they believe.)
1. Is there any reference within the last 500 years to someone being Nassi Hador that does not have Lubavich as its source? If Yes, please cite.
2. Do you believe that ONLY BASED ON THE RAMBAM’s CRITERIA the Lubavicher rebbe is (likely to be) mashiach? If yes, please explain how you see this in the Rambam.
3. Do you believe that a sefer Tanya has the same kedusha as a Sefer Torah and that the latter should not be placed on the former?
4. Can you demonstrate, without lubavich sources, why your rebbe should be considered the leader of the generation?
5. Are we simply to ignore (virtually) the entire yeshivishe world who vehemently deny the tzidkus of your rebbe?
6. Do you believe that a lubavicher bochur who learns chassidus is definitely better than the Chazon Ish who (allegedly) did not?
There are lots more questions I and others could ask, but I am exhausted (and a little “under the weather”) from the simcha I am attending so that’s the best I could do at the moment.November 25, 2018 11:29 am at 11:29 am #1629915
You’ve twisted the original story. No one said greater, also was regarding הבל פיהם של תשב”רNovember 25, 2018 12:12 pm at 12:12 pm #1629997
I have to say, several of those questions were pretty loaded.
Sechel: for #4, you think he should be considered the leader of the generation for everyone, including those who don’t hold of Chabad? I.e. the belief would be that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is actually everyone’s Rebbe, not just Chabad, and Lubavitchers are just the only ones who acknowledge it. If that is the shittah, then I must say that’s hardly any more acceptable than meshichism.
Or, do you just mean that you, speaking from the point of view of a Lubavitcher, would consider him the gadol hador in the same way that a Sphard would say so about HaRav Ovadia Yosef or a Litvak about Rav Shach? If that’s the case, then that’s obviously normal and I don’t see why anyone would consider it controversial.November 25, 2018 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #1630171
1. Person no, source yes.
2. Unsure – looking up two details
5. False (Rav Moshe Feinstein and R JB Soloveitchik are both litvish among others im sure)
6. No and agree with sechel that’s a twisted rendition of the story.November 25, 2018 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #1630257
samthenylic, I think thatr the Pele Yoetz says that when we say לישועתך קוינו כל היום we should have in mind Your yeshuah of the Ribono Shel Olam.November 26, 2018 12:58 am at 12:58 am #1630367
Laskern, my HAT is off to you. To be so knowledgeable about so many different subjects, -esp. upon perusing your posts on the Parshios – I really admire your knowledge. Mama”sh a Gaon!November 26, 2018 3:54 am at 3:54 am #1630422
Re the story with the Chazon Ish. I may have got it wrong but I couldn’t find it. I’m not good at searching in the CR. Can someone set me straight about it.
As to question 3 about the Sefer Torah and a Tanya, I have heard it many times. Usually when I am told off for cleaning up some sefarim and putting a Chumash on top of a Tanya. Do you consider that wrong?
And where is TT in this?November 26, 2018 3:54 am at 3:54 am #1630423
CS (in response to the question dealing with virtually all the yeshivishe world denying the tzidkus of the lubavicher rebbe):
“5. False (Rav Moshe Feinstein and R JB Soloveitchik are both litvish among others im sure)”
First, I wrote “virtually”
Second,R JB Soloveitchik, although being an amazing Litvishe gaon was not part of the yeshivishe – I wrote yeshivishe, not Litvishe – world. He was an outspoken member and supporter of Mizrachi.
So as we have only Rav Moshe among the yeshivishe world who we know got on very well with the Lubavicher rebbe, I stand by my statement.November 26, 2018 3:54 am at 3:54 am #1630420
Thanks for your honest (I believe they are, and ניכרים דברי אמת) answers.
Neville: “Sechel: for #4, you think he should be considered the leader of the generation for everyone, including those who don’t hold of Chabad?”
How about SY citing sources, as that was really question no. 4, whether he could prove it without recourse to lubavich sources.November 26, 2018 7:50 am at 7:50 am #1630466
RSo:”where is TT in all this”.
I posted a response, but I guess it didn’t pass moderation. I’m not sure why.
One point which I will try to get through here: you asked whether a Tanya may not be placed under a Sefer Torah, and were told of course it may, but from your response afterwards you seem to be talking about a Chumash, not a ST. The Rebbe would famously take Tanya’s from on top of Chumashim AND Chumashim from on top of Tanyas.November 26, 2018 8:03 am at 8:03 am #1630486
Will try get to it when I have time. I have a real life outside the CR:)November 26, 2018 8:40 am at 8:40 am #1630488
If anyone saw their rebbe put something on a chumash,that should have immediately sent them packing. If there is evidence that the lubavitcher rebbe put a tanya on a chumash then regardless of anything there is to say, CS, SH and the rest have no valid words to defend him, nor anyone who tokerated auch a thing. If that is true, there is NOTHING else.November 26, 2018 10:10 am at 10:10 am #1630572
Do you read English?
TT wrote very clearly:
“The Rebbe would famously take Tanya’s from on top of Chumashim AND Chumashim from on top of Tanyas”
If you can’t understand that, then I’m afraid you need a hard reset.November 26, 2018 10:30 am at 10:30 am #1630605
Are you for real? So if i say i eat questionable hechshers AND good hechshers that works for you?November 26, 2018 12:24 pm at 12:24 pm #1630631
“If you can’t understand that, then I’m afraid you need a hard reset.”
Yes, we get from TT’s comment that he didn’t put Tanyas atop of Chumashim, but it also seems he refused to put Chamashim on top of Tanyas. It sounds like he was treating it as a safek as to which one had more kedushah.
The fact that he was choshesh for the actual halachah that the Chumash should go on top does not make it any better that he entertained the possibility of the Tanya carrying the same kedusha as Hashem’s word.
And, either way, if he put Chumashim on top if Mishnayos and other sfarim, but not on top of Tanyas, doesn’t that imply Tanyas are considered greater than those?November 26, 2018 12:39 pm at 12:39 pm #1630633
I’m going to invite you to read his words one more time, before I explain the simple English like a pre school teacher.November 26, 2018 12:48 pm at 12:48 pm #1630705
being nasty seems to be your go to. You may not want to consider shlichus to you have worked on that.
If you can’t defend something your rebbe does, just say so. If you can, just say so. Being a jerk won’t change what has been written here in plain English. If you have a response, try giving it. Until then, and based on what you have contributed so far, you don’t have a leg to stand on.November 26, 2018 1:26 pm at 1:26 pm #1630724
Sechel, I think it is you that is not understanding. You are predictably going to come in and say that “if you understood TT correctly, you would see that the Rebbe never put a Tanya on top of a Chumash.”
We know. The disconnect is that you seem to think that paturs him from the the rest of the issue. It doesn’t.
The only way you guys can dig yourselves out of this one is if you show that it was part of a bigger custom to never put any sefer on top of any other sefer and the fact that we’re discussing Tanya and Chumash is just coincidental choice. If that is the case, you could have easily said so, but it was not said (nor anything like it) in TT’s comment.November 26, 2018 1:46 pm at 1:46 pm #1630742
Halacha dictates that no sefer gets placed on top of a Chumash. Some individuals have a hergesh that dictates that nothing is placed on top of a Tanya, known as the Torah Shebichsav of Chassidus.November 26, 2018 1:47 pm at 1:47 pm #1630745
I did not misread the words. Because it is familiar to you, you understood the setting differently than I did. But that does not change the fact that Neville pointed out so clearly. I listened to a certain torah lecturer enthusiastically but then he said or did something that stretched Halacha a bit too far and that was the end. When people do things that are WRONG, give chashivus to things differently than Torah dictates, you and the other lubavitchers should have gone packing. If you want to counter that you were already taken by his other, positive traits you are describing cult behavior which I don’t think would be smart.November 26, 2018 1:59 pm at 1:59 pm #1630762
Gut Yom Tov!! I think if you understand more about what the Sefer Tanya Kadisha is, it will definitely help. To do that, I’ll write up a moiradike story a heard from a shiur in preparation for yud tes Kislev, maybe later tonight after I write to the Rebbe. Lshana toiva belimud Hachassidus uvdarchei Hachassidus to all 🙂November 26, 2018 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm #1630763
“Halacha dictates that no sefer gets placed on top of a Chumash. Some individuals have a hergesh that dictates that nothing is placed on top of a Tanya, known as the Torah Shebichsav of Chassidus.”
So this is your “explaining it to us like pre-schoolers?” Telling us exactly what we already explicitly said we understood? Saying basically exactly what I predicted you would say?
So, the custom is that the Tanya has more kedushah than the Mishnah or Gemara. The fact that you avoided stating it explicitly as long as you could shows that you realize it’s not something that’s going to go over well with others. Are you going to assume that’s because we’re all just “haters?”November 26, 2018 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm #1630768
“I think if you understand more about what the Sefer Tanya Kadisha is, it will definitely help”
I think you are so far off the point of what is going on here. Thinking that understanding the Tanya will give any level of justification to taking a chumash off of it is insulting. Are you really that unaware of what we are talking about or do you think that it will just serve as a nice distraction?November 26, 2018 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #1630786
That Rav Moshe Feinstein “got along well” with the Lubavitcher Rebbe can in no way be construed that he held him to be his rebbe, the Gadol Hador, the Nasi Hador, or anything like that.
I find it interesting that someone like CS, who proudly (and condescendingly) claims that Chabad (intellectual) is a higher madreiga than Chagas (emotional) has decided to accept the likelihood of the rebbe as Moshiach – a cornerstone of her philosophy in life – as coming from a feeling.
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