The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us!

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  • #1643599

    username123321
    Participant

    Chossid: “And nossi hador is made up by the Rebbe?”

    Yes, and I have proven it.

    The words themselves. Could be. The concept (A singular Ispashtusa DeMoshe), you didn’t.

    והנה הצדיק שיש בו ניצוץ משה, הוא המנהיג את הדור וכל החכמים שבדורו טפלים לו, כי הם ענפים שלו

    דגדול הדור נקרא כן שהוא ניצוץ משה רבינו ע”ה עצמו המתגלגל בכל דור

    Both are singular.

    #1643600

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    There’s a general klal that you don’t need as strong of a Svara to legitimize an existing Minhag than to innovate a new one.

    It’s debatable how old this “minhag” is…

    Besides, there are weak sevaros and then there are weak sevaros. This doesn’t work within any normal system of determining or even defending a halacha.

    #1643611

    RSo
    Participant

    “There’s a general klal that you don’t need as strong of a Svara to legitimize an existing Minhag than to innovate a new one.”

    I’m not looking for a legitimization of a minhag. A I wrote at least twice, there are many minhogim that seem to go against halocho. My ENTIRE point was that the lomdus doesn’t make sense, as rockstar pointed out earlier as well.

    #1643610

    RSo
    Participant

    Chossid: “Your only problem is that you don’t like that the Rebbe associated the friediker Rebbe as a nossi hador (and the same goes on himself).”
    No. My objection is, as I have written too many times already, that there the concept of Nossi Hador is not applicable to anyone alive or who was alive for the last thousands (I wrote hundreds in the past, but I think it’s in the thousands) of years. Had you said you believed that your rebbe or the Rayatz were the greatest tzaddikim of their generations I would not have agreed but I wouldn’t have argued the point. It’s the making up of a term and applying it (at least by implication) to oneself that I object to because I have heard lubavichers argue that clearly their rebbe is the Nossi Hador as no one else has even laid claim to the title.
    Furthermore, the mekoros that you quoted above that there is ONE tzaddik with a nitzotz are from a very few seforim, with the Zohar saying in at least one place (as someone pointed out in Tikunnim, I believe) that it is 600,000 neshamos in each dor.

    ““Did you know that there are Rebbes alive today shlita who spend hours EVERY DAY dealing with chassidim and others?”
    Very possible, but do you have any names?”
    Yes, I do have names, and ask chassidim of many other rebbes and they may be willing to tell you names. Unlike you and others, however, I don’t believe in citing names in a public forum when I am sure the people whose names I would cite would not want to be cited! So just because I don’t cite names it doesn’t mean I don’t have the names.

    “I don’t see a difference between telling a non frum person to do a mitzvah, and telling a goiy to do a mitzvah”
    To me the difference is obvious. There is a din or arvus when it comes to Yidden, but no din of arvus when it comes to goyim.
    As to the Rambam you keep quoting, I have already replied that it doesn’t apply nowadays as we can’t do what the Rambam finishes off his halocho with, i.e. punishing those who don’t in beis din. Don’t you think it noteworthy that the Rambam writes specifically לכוף which means “force” them to keep mitzvos? Is that what the lubavicher rebbe said to do?

    “Good question, but the same I can’t understand how he had Ruach hakodesh and did miracles, the same to is with this. Maybe he just was not an ordinary person.”
    That doesn’t answer the question. If the Rambam paskened it as a halocho it means it applies to every Yid during his lifetime. This is something your rebbe believed as he always spoke about the primacy of halocho (Remember when he had people pasken at a farbrengen that the Israeli government was forbidden to give back land, and he expected that the fact that a halocho had been paskened would affect the outcome?) The lubavicher rebbe was certainly a Yid, so were he to make a shevua that he would not sleep for three consecutive days it would be a shevuas shov and he would be chayav malkus. One must therefore conclude that he slept at least a short time every three days, and on Sukkos he would have been chayav to sleep in a sukkah.

    “And yes the Rebbe had a bed in is room, but that was only in the last five years after the rebbitzim past away.”
    ??? How does that show anything at all. 1. Before she passed away he went home every night so he didn’t need a bed in his office. 2. The person who told me the story was talking about the early 80s before the rebbetzin passed away. I could provide details but I don’t want to “out” anyone.

    “NAMES PLEASE”
    No. I won’t supply names of people who would not want to be mentioned. I understand that you may therefore decide not to believe me, but I know that I am telling the truth.

    ““Can I also guess that there are a lot of people who think otherwise who aren’t quoted?”
    Very possible, if you can please name me some.
    For some reason you don’t have any………….”
    Sorry, but once again your conclusion is wrong. As above.

    #1643612

    username123321
    Participant

    Also, @rso, about Rebbe pictures, I’ve found the following attributed to the Shevet KaKehati (I don’t have a copy. If there’s a way for someone with an Otzar HaChochma to put a picture up, it would be helpful – the Maar Makom is שו”ת שבט הקהתי חלק ב’ סימן ג אות ב):

    יש מי שכתב שבעל נפש לא יזרוק תמונות של צדיקים בדרך בזיון

    But what I did find, was the following from the Tzitz Eliezer. He was discussing putting Tzaddikim’s pictures on stamps. First he wrote that since there are sources that one shouldn’t have their picture taken, it’s not a positive thing to have those pictures publicized, but he writes in a Snif at the end:

    ועוד זאת , הא הרבה מהתמונות יתגלגלו לאחר מיכן ברחובות ובשווקים ורוב העם לא ינהגו בם בכבוד הראוי כי אם ההיפך מזה וד”ל.

    Which implies that there is some “Kavod HaRaui” to pictures of Tzaddikim.

    #1643615

    RSo
    Participant

    CS: “In chassidish non lubavitch society, dressing tznius is not necessarily an indication of sensitivity to kedusha and yiras shomayim, but an indication of communal pressure.”

    And I believe that in all communities keeping Shabbos, keeping kashrus, putting on tefillin, giving tzedoko, men wearing a yarmulke etc etc “is not necessarily an indication of” yiras Shamayim “but an indication of communal pressure”. That’s the way Hashem made the world and it is factored into the mitzvos. Why should tznius be any different?

    Btw you write that you don’t find the tznius level of lubavicher chasunos any worse than any other. I have to differ. A few weeks ago I was at a lubavicher chasuna not in my home town, and the level of mixing of “chassidishe” lubavicher bochurim and avreichim with “chassidishe” lubavicher girls and women was something one does not see any simchah of any other chareidi (I’m not counting MO) group, chassidish or non-chassidish.

    Perhaps you don’t find it objectionable when at least one of the sides is married. I do.

    #1643619

    username123321
    Participant

    This doesn’t work within any normal system of determining or even defending a halacha.

    What, that feeling guilty is called enough Tzaar to avoid sleeping in a Sukkah?

    #1643646

    Mammele
    Participant

    My two cents on this:
    “In chassidish non lubavitch society, dressing tznius is not necessarily an indication of sensitivity to kedusha and yiras shomayim, but an indication of communal pressure.”
    I’m not a mind reader, but logically the last part of the above comment should have read “, but MAY BE an indication of communal pressure.”

    I don’t know if CS didn’t fully ananlyze/proofread her post, in which case SH is likely correct and it was an innocent observation, or it was a “Freudian slip” stemming from CS’s feelings of superiority. Syag was right to protest the comment based on the condescending way it was worded and her experiences here, yet CS probably didn’t deserve the whip lashing either…

    #1643648

    RSo
    Participant

    username, thanks for those mekoros about pictures of tzaddikim. I find it very interesting and wonder why it does not border on לא תעשה לך פסל וכל תמונה.

    As to this question of yours: “What, that feeling guilty is called enough Tzaar to avoid sleeping in a Sukkah?”

    Feeling guilty that you can fall asleep, which is a mitzvah, can be called tzaar and therefore patter you from sleeping? Doesn’t make sense.

    #1643658

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Mammale- thank you! I actually had considered calling you and golfer to weigh in on this.
    Regarding the whip lashing…I don’t know. I would agree with you if it was just this comment but there have been too many degrading references to our Gedolim, learning, kehillos, Yiras shamayim, kavod HaTorah…you get the idea. But have no fear, she usually responds to these responses to her put downs with an “lol” , and a brush off about how I seem to misread everything she clearly states because how can someone without her level of hiskashrus really understand anything at all.
    It’s a pela

    #1643655

    username123321
    Participant

    As to the Rambam you keep quoting, I have already replied that it doesn’t apply nowadays as we can’t do what the Rambam finishes off his halocho with, i.e. punishing those who don’t in beis din. Don’t you think it noteworthy that the Rambam writes specifically לכוף which means “force” them to keep mitzvos? Is that what the lubavicher rebbe said to do?

    If Halacha would say “You’re not allowed to carry on Shabbos, and if you do, you’re Chayav Misah”, would you say that it’s muttar to carry on Shabbos since we don’t have a Sanhedrin? If we have no Achrayus on them, and them keeping the 7 mitzvos is bad, then even if we could do the second half, why should we force them to keep anything?

    #1643672

    username123321
    Participant

    Feeling guilty that you can fall asleep, which is a mitzvah, can be called tzaar and therefore patter you from sleeping? Doesn’t make sense.

    Sorry, I don’t get your issue. Is it that why should one feel guilty about doing a Mitzvah? Because it is a very holy place, and you feel bad sleeping (which comes along with other things) in a holy place. So if my house was a Shul, I wouldn’t sleep there either.

    But it’s a Mitzvah?

    No. There’s no Mitzvah to sleep in a Sukkah. It’s to live in a Sukkah like we do at home. So because we sleep at home, we have to sleep in a Sukkah. But there’s no inherent Mitzvah to sleep in a Sukkah. And the same goes for drinking, or eating (except for the first night). The Mitzvah is to live there like you do at home. Since you eat and drink at home, you have to eat and drink in the Sukkah.

    But all Seforim say to sleep in a Sukkah. The Mishna, Gemara, Rishonim, Shulchan Aruch?

    Yes, because there’s a Mitzvah to sleep in a Sukkah like you sleep at home. And for hundreds of years, there were two classes of people:

    1. People who really grasped the holiness of a Sukkah – and these were Tzaddikim who’s sleep was a different sleep (for example, Shivchei Ari says how the Arizal would learn deep Sisrei Torah while he slept), so for them there was no problem sleeping in a Sukkah, so they had the Chiyuv DeOraisa to sleep in a Sukkah.

    2. The regular folk, who didn’t know the Sisrei Torah behind the Sukkah. So they obviously didn’t feel bad about sleeping in a Sukkah, so they had the Chiyuv DeOriasa to sleep in the Sukkah.

    It’s just that due to Yeridas Hadoros on one hand, and the spread of Chassidus on the other (so that even relatively simple people have some understanding of what holiness a Sukkah has), that there’s this guilty feeling.

    But yes, if you don’t have any guilty feeling, you absolutely are obligated to sleep in a Sukkah.

    #1643675

    RSo
    Participant

    username: “If we have no Achrayus on them, and them keeping the 7 mitzvos is bad, then even if we could do the second half, why should we force them to keep anything?”

    I keep saying this: there is no concept of arvus with a goy. And, as I pointed out, the Rambam, in whose lashon we are medayek, said “to force”, not “to convince” or “to encourage”. Hashem wants us to force them to keep mitzvos. That’s not shayach nowadays.

    #1643677

    RSo
    Participant

    username, look at Shulchan Aruch Harav and tell me there is no mitzvah to sleep in the sukkah IF YOU INTEND TO SLEEP.

    #1643678

    RSo
    Participant

    username, If I know I don’t eat lesheim Shamayim and I am a big megusham when it comes to food, would I be justified not to eat in the sukkah because I feel guilty eating there?

    #1643689

    username123321
    Participant

    By the way, another example of such roundabout logic is the famous Minchas Elazar which allows clapping on Shabbos:

    You’re not allowed to clap or dance on Shabbos, except for a Simcha Shel Mitzvah. So since a Tzaddik really feels the holiness of Shabbos, for him clapping and dancing becomes a Simcha shel Mitzvah, allowing him to clap on Shabbos.

    So if one really feels the holiness of Shabbos, he’s feeling a Simcha Shel Mitzvah, allowing him to be lenient in a practical Halacha of Shabbos.

    #1643691

    username123321
    Participant

    look at Shulchan Aruch Harav and tell me there is no mitzvah to sleep in the sukkah IF YOU INTEND TO SLEEP.

    The Mitzvah is to live there like you do at home. Since you sleep, eat and drink at home, you have to sleep, eat and drink in the Sukkah.

    #1643698

    username123321
    Participant

    username, If I know I don’t eat lesheim Shamayim and I am a big megusham when it comes to food, would I be justified not to eat in the sukkah because I feel guilty eating there?

    If you really feel guilty, and you know that eating not Lesheim Shamayim in a Sukkah is really bad, I could see a Sevara to say that.

    Would I mechadesh such a minhag on my own? No. Not at all.

    But then, if not for the existing Minhag, I (and most likely the Rebbe) would say to sleep in a Sukkah also.

    #1643701

    username123321
    Participant

    I keep saying this: there is no concept of arvus with a goy. And, as I pointed out, the Rambam, in whose lashon we are medayek, said “to force”, not “to convince” or “to encourage”. Hashem wants us to force them to keep mitzvos. That’s not shayach nowadays.

    The Rambam also says:

    מי שאינו רוצה ליתן צדקה או שיתן מעט ממה שראוי לו בית דין כופין אותו ומכין אותן מכת מרדות עד שיתן מה שאמדוהו ליתן, ויורדין לנכסיו בפניו ולוקחין ממנו מה שראוי לו ליתן. וממשכנין על הצדקה ואפילו בערבי שבתות.

    Should we apply the same Diyuk here? If a Beis Din can’t force someone to give Tzedaka, they shouldn’t try convincing them, because it says “Kofin” and not “encourage” or “convince”?

    #1643792

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    Username: You didn’t address my issues, which are primarily in the end of the Sicha:

    Here I am copy-pasting from my previous post
    Quote from SH – Therefore, the Rebbe does as much as he can to resolve this apparent conflict.

    I know. But the “as much as he can” wasn’t that great, as all those who can learn can attest. The tzaar is dubious (the Amaroyim didn;t have that tzar? If you answer that they were on a higher level so they could sleep there fine. But many answer that they didn’t know chassidus, which IMHO is kefira. Even according to them still dubious why the amorayim didn’t tell the am haaratzim not to sleep because of the tzaar)

    And the end is the kicker – tzaar of not having the tzaar is just ridicoulous and not even good enough to patur as it needs to be tzaar of sukkah (why are all the chassidim supposedly who have the tzaar of not having tzar sleeping so comfortably in bed), and even worse, they can rely on their Rebbe”s tzaar, which is something who find in no Halacha EVER.

    The sicha a poor shatnez of kabbalah and halacha.

    #1643793

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    Quote from Chossid:

    “The Rebbe said on the friediker Rebbe that HE will find away to answer,”

    I wasn’t aware a dead person can answer people.

    #1643794

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    “Good question, but the same I can’t understand how he had Ruach hakodesh and did miracles to the same is with this. Maybe he just was not an ordinary person.”

    Maybe he was a God??? (/sarc)

    Or more likely the story is made-up.

    #1643795

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    “If doesn’t make a difference who it was written by, it just states and has pictures of many great rabbeim meeting the Rebbe. Not necessarily Chad bedorah, but that they held of the Rebbe and asked him for brochois.”

    How strange. Why is it that only Chabad needs such a sefer? No other chassidus needs such a sefer, and certainly Rav Shach didn’t need such a sefer. Only Chabad does. I wonder why. Maybe it’s because they have an inferiority complex?

    #1643796

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    “This igros thing that you expect answers from the Rebbe is garbage.”

    No ffense Chossid, but you’re being more insulting to the Rebbe than CS is. At least CS writes respectfully and clearly. You just trash whoever disagrees with you illogically.

    That’s why my language on you has been so tough these past few posts.

    #1643797

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    Furthermore, Chossid, if you need a name for RSo’s assertion that other chassidus’s Rebbeim care about their chassidim, you’re out of your mind.

    Edited

    #1643896

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Why is “Chabad Light” our problem, while “Modern Orthodox” is not yours?”

    Bingo. He got my point. I wasn’t trying to give a defense for Chabad or any tznius problem. It’s just that that argument has always been a dead point for 2 reasons:
    1) Claiming minhag Chabad has abjectly worse tznius than minhag Ashkenaz can only be accomplished by taking a selective census that includes Chabad Light for Chabad, but only includes the frummiest of Litvaks for us.
    2) Claiming that Williamsburg chassidim are more tznius than Chabad might be true, but the Chabadniks haven’t really seemed to deny that. So, what point is trying to be reached? Admittedly, I haven’t read most of the posts about this thoroughly.

    #1643959

    CS
    Participant

    YR:
    “GREAT! So at least you disagee with Reuven Wolf, who holds that the Rebbe being Moshaich is the foundation of all of yiddishkeit.

    Welcome back to Judaism!
    CS, Nachamtani.”

    I guess I should take that as a compliment although I never changed my opinion here. I’ve been pressed on the moshiach issue so I’ve been open about it but it doesn’t mean it’s the focus of Chabad Chassidus at all. And regardless I never left Judaism and neither did Rabbi wolf btw. Just that article is easy to quote one line of a write up of what he said (not wrote, and there is a difference in language between the two) in a magazine that doesn’t care to explain itself very much as it’s geared for a certain segment of lubavitchers who get what its saying.

    Regardless I do think he may be a bit too far to the right (as represented by that speech) than the careful balance the fever gave us bshitta, but that doesn’t mean he is wrong as in wrong in Judaism. Just you don’t understand him. And once again I never referenced that article I referenced a video. If you weren’t see quick to judge him negatively maybe you’d see the video to get what he actually meant.

    #1643966

    CS
    Participant

    YR, sechel etc.
    “No offense, CS, but that’s a pretty cheap copout, considering the Rambam clearly writes Neherag, which implies that his criteria DOES apply to the dead. (If not, every Neherag could still theoretically be Moshiach Min Hameisim.”) Also, “Im lo Hatzliach Ad Koh” implies he’s dead, otherwise, how would we possibly know if he hasn’t succeeded? Maybe he will with more time?”

    Listen I told you what he said. Then I called back to understand it better (what I’m thinking he meant was that the halachic conditions of bchezkas moshiach etc only apply to someone alive but if someone comes from the dead than they would start over. The Rambam doesnt disqualify the dead (just the killed) just tells us how halachically
    we can consider someone to be bchezkas moshiach etc.)
    And when I did he said it’s a non issue halachically and just a matter of hashkafa so I should talk to my Mashpia about it. And he didn’t want to explain further. With the fine line of mainstream lubavitch (believing ourselves not pushing on others) im not surprised he was reluctant. If sechel becomes a lubavitcher Rav one day I can see him saying something similar (that its a matter of hashkafa and not be willing to elaborate.)

    At any case if you want to know where mainstream Rabbanim hold – not only do they not turn a blind eye to it, but if they won’t tell us themselves, they direct us to our mashpiim, who have no such compunctions…

    #1643982

    CS
    Participant

    Chossid:
    “This igros thing that you expect answers from the Rebbe is garbage. The Rebbe said on the friediker Rebbe that HE will find away to answer, not that YOU find him away
    to answer,”

    Listen chossid unlike you who are still in the walls of Yeshiva, im in the Olam hazeh hagashmi, where I need to make life altering decisions many times and really do need urgent anders on a regular basis. Maybe it is a bit of a chutzpa of me, but I do try to make it a two way Street and devote myself fully to the Rebbe’s shlichus and be the Rebbe’s chossid as much as I can. So if it works, then the Rebbe is going along with it and I couldn’t be happier.

    “after yud shvat the Rebbe said to ask brochois and daven by his kaver, not to ask his igros.”

    Yeah I do both of the former and not disputing the latter.

    “And btw the Rebbe didn’t always answer everyone, so who said he answer you (not saying that the Rebbe way of answering can not come sometimes for the igros, could be that’s the way he decided to answer this time, but that’s not the way you ask the Rebbe, and that’s not, that the Rebbe has to answer.”

    Right no one is saying the Rebbe has to answer. In fact my most recent letter said one line about the Rebbe having already addressed my question before (it was true) and the rest was irrelevant.

    “The way we know how ask a Rebbe is the Rebbe did it himself.”

    Well in that case you actually build my case. Thanks. The Rebbe would come back from the ohel many times saying the Frierdiker Rebbe said this. He didn’t wait around when he had urgent questions till the day the Frierdiker Rebbe would find a way to get back to him. And guess what? Neither did the chassidim. That’s not a normal way to have a Rebbe. That’s why they brushed aside the Rebbe’s protests that they could write the Frierdiker Rebbe and he’ll find a way and insisted on making the Rebbe our Rebbe. Is it my fault I don’t have ruach hakodesh and can’t ask the Rebbe directly.

    If you wanna know something my personal svara is that the Rebbe was trying to accomplish the avoda b koach atzmo we are forced into now, way back in tof shin yud. The chassidim managed to push it off for another 42 years but here we go again. And this time there’s no new Rebbe till moshiach. We’re the final generation.

    #1644009

    CS
    Participant

    Syag, (mammele)
    SH: “Societal pressure is a good thing, and one of the issues in many Lubavitcher communities today is that there simply isn’t any, but on the other hand, societal pressure also masks many underlying issues within the said society. I’m not going to illustrate my point, it resonates differently within every community.

    Halevai we had communal pressure in Crown Heights, and Halevai people would have the sensitivity and Bushah to dress properly even if they don’t believe in it.”

    Agreed. And by not necessarily I meant not necessarily. Not that every tznius woman there is not tznius in her private life cvs but that you can’t judge numbers by outside appearances in a community where they have a strong incentive to dress that way regardless of their personal private tznius.

    #1644026

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    “in a magazine that doesn’t care to explain itself very much as it’s geared for a certain segment of lubavitchers who get what its saying.”

    I.e., those Lubavichers who deify the Rebbe.

    I don’t think you’re like that, CS, but Beis Moshiach’s editors are most certainly closet elokists. They once printed Arnie Gottfried’s article that ended “Hu Elokeinu? The Rebbe, MH”M that’s who”. Which is indefensible, and they rightly got called out for it. But I don’t believe for a moment they’ve changed their shittos. Beis Moshiach’s editors have an agenda, and it’s poisoning Chabad. BTW Gottfried is the one who wrote one of the biggest pro-meshichist proof books in English, and I’ve seen his books in multiple meshichist Chabad houses. So even after that kefiradig article, he’s still considered mainstream by meshichistin.

    Furthermore, Sichas Hageula almost never refers to the Shechina as the shechina, rather they always refer to it as “Atzmus Umehus”. Recent example: On Parshas vayera they wrote “it’s time to turn to HKB”H and ask him “Atzmus Umahus, please take us out of Galus!” There’s no reasonable reason for them to write this that way – except if they have a hidden agenda.

    Sichas Hageula once called the Rebbe “Hakodosh Baruch Hu in a Body” years ago, and they got called out for it as well. But that doesn’t seem to spot it from appearing in meshichists homes.

    #1644027

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    “I’m thinking he meant was that the halachic conditions of bchezkas moshiach etc only apply to someone alive but if someone comes from the dead than they would start over. ”

    This actually makes sense. So you agree the Rebbe’s not halachically chezkas mashiach then?

    #1644049

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    Correction: His name is Arnie Gotfryd. This Elokist even appears on Chabad dot org!

    #1644146

    K-cup
    Participant

    “Listen chossid unlike you who are still in the walls of Yeshiva,  im in the Olam hazeh hagashmi, where I need to make life altering decisions many times…”
    Ironic

    #1644160

    samthenylic
    Participant

    Re; Bais Moshiach, one can ask “Ele elohecha Yisroel?!”
    He is d–d!

    #1644161

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    Nu, Sechel, Chossid, Username: I think I’ve demonstrated that if an elokist is giving shiurim on chabad’s flagship website (albeit not on these specific views), when a litvak suspects chabad of kefirah, it’s not merely sinas chinam, but rather a chashash with basis. (Admittedly, this is true only of meshichists, but you can’t expect a litvak to know chabad politics.)

    Chabad needs to make a cheshbon hanefesh, a kol koreh, and a huge purge,

    #1644162

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    Username, please respond to my criticism of the second part of the sukkah sicha when you can. Your analysis and defense of the first part where quite good.

    #1644178

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    CS,
    “If sechel becomes a lubavitcher Rav one day I can see him saying something similar (that its a matter of hashkafa and not be willing to elaborate.)”
    Firstly, I’m flattered, but in the fifth Chelek of Shulchan Aruch there’s a Seif that states that one who has spent too long on the Coffee Room is disqualified from being a Rov:)

    What your Rov told you is something I wrote on one of these threads long ago, that even if you wish to believe that the Rebbe will be Moshiach, (something that the Rebbe himself negtes, in a Haara in a Sicha, will post the MM later) it’s impossible to claim that he is, or ever was Chezkas Moshiach. Obviously, if he were to have a Techiya before everyone else, he could potentially fulfill those criteria, though, as I said, the Rebbe doesn’t seem to hold this way.

    #1644209

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    Sechel, I’ll save you the trouble: It’s Likutei Sichos Chelek 35, Sicha of Parshas Vayigash. Look at Note 6. The reason the Rebbe says about Dovid Hamelech applies to all dead people.

    Now that I’ve demonstrated I know more about chabad than i originally let on, I would like a response on my posts about “creeping elokistism”.

    #1644508

    RSo
    Participant

    username: “The Rambam also says:
    מי שאינו רוצה ליתן צדקה או שיתן מעט ממה שראוי לו בית דין כופין אותו ומכין אותן מכת מרדות עד שיתן מה שאמדוהו ליתן, ויורדין לנכסיו בפניו ולוקחין ממנו מה שראוי לו ליתן. וממשכנין על הצדקה ואפילו בערבי שבתות.
    Should we apply the same Diyuk here? If a Beis Din can’t force someone to give Tzedaka, they shouldn’t try convincing them, because it says “Kofin” and not “encourage” or “convince”?”

    How can you compare the two? Here, in the same perek, it says that a Yid is mechuyav to give tzedoko, so even though nowadays in most places beis din doesn’t have the power to enforce it, the mitzvah to give tzedoko, and the arvus involved in encouraging all Yidden to give tzedoko, still applies. In the case of forcing goyim to keep the 7 mitzvos the only statement of the Rambam is to force them to do so. And since that doesn’t apply nowadays, coupled with the fact that there is no arvus, the halacha is not applicable.

    Furthermore, the Rambam continues that halocho by saying that the goy has to be mekabel to keep the 7 mitzvos in front of three chaveirim (not friends, but basically frum Jews) and then he is considered a ger toshav. Do we have a ger toshav nowadays? Do those who promote the 7 mitzvos “encourage” that they specifically accept all the 7 mitzvos in front of three chaveirim? Because if they don’t accept it that way, according to the Rambam, they are chayav misa even if they happen to keep those 7 mitvos. Have a look and see.

    #1644509

    RSo
    Participant

    rockstar: “Furthermore, Chossid, if you need a name for RSo’s assertion that other chassidus’s Rebbeim care about their chassidim, you’re out of your mind.

    Edited”

    How frustrating! It sounded like it was going to get really good.

    #1644514

    RSo
    Participant

    CS: “So if it works, then the Rebbe is going along with it and I couldn’t be happier.”

    Just because “it works” it doesn’t prove anything. Avodah Zarah “worked” for some people, as did kishuf, but it was just as wrong as other things that don’t work.

    Don’t get all riled up. I’m not comparing here. Just showing the falseness of your argument.

    #1644516

    RSo
    Participant

    -CS: “you can’t judge numbers by outside appearances in a community where they have a strong incentive to dress that way regardless of their personal private tznius”

    Wrong. You CAN judge the level of tznius dressing by outside appearances. What people do in their own homes no one knows. But a major part of tznius is dressing according to halacha (and more so), and if that’s what some groups do they are tzniusdik. Groups that don’t are not.

    Someone who keeps Shabbos publicly is considered a shomer Shabbos and we will drink his wine regardless of what he does on Shabbos at home. Someone who is mechalel Shabbos in public has the din of an akum in many areas.

    #1644526

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ Username
    “1. People who really grasped the holiness of a Sukkah – and these were Tzaddikim who’s sleep was a different sleep (for example, Shivchei Ari says how the Arizal would learn deep Sisrei Torah while he slept), so for them there was no problem sleeping in a Sukkah, so they had the Chiyuv DeOraisa to sleep in a Sukkah.

    2. The regular folk, who didn’t know the Sisrei Torah behind the Sukkah. So they obviously didn’t feel bad about sleeping in a Sukkah, so they had the Chiyuv DeOriasa to sleep in the Sukkah.

    It’s just that due to Yeridas Hadoros on one hand, and the spread of Chassidus on the other (so that even relatively simple people have some understanding of what holiness a Sukkah has), that there’s this guilty feeling.”

    Did you ever learn the sicha inside? A guilty feeling due to [mis]understanding sisrai Torah has nothing to do with it.

    #1644529

    RSo
    Participant

    username: “If you really feel guilty, and you know that eating not Lesheim Shamayim in a Sukkah is really bad, I could see a Sevara to say that.”

    I can come up with sevaros for lots of things, but some of them are megaleh panim baTorah shelo kehalacha. The above statement of yours falls into the same category.

    Halocho paskens that unless you are mitzta’er and unable to accomplish the act that you are about to do, you have to do it in the sukkah. For example, if you can’t eat the mikpeh (whatever type of food that is) because the rain is ruining it, you are pattur. Similarly, if you can’t sleep in the sukkah because of the weather, mosquitoes, whatever, you are pattur. But you’re not pattur because you CAN eat or sleep and feel guilty about it.

    To show the absurdity of it: if I know it’s currently raining in another neighborhood and I feel tzaar for those people who can’t eat in their sukkah, am I pattur? (If you answer yes, I really have nothing further to say. If you answer no, then) How then can I be pattur from sleeping in a sukkah when I can sleep somewhat comfortably but someone else can’t?

    I’ll give you one even more absurd scenario. It’s a beautiful day and I am eating my seudas Yom Tov in the sukkah when, out of the blue, I remember that the rebbe can’t sleep in the sukkah because he has tzaar. The fact that I don’t experience the same tzaar when I try to sleep in the sukkah causes me tzaar. So I can now take my food and eat it inside because I am currently being mitztaer about being able to sleep in the sukkah even though I have no intention of sleeping at the moment. Would you agree with that? If yes, then I give up. If no, please explain why when I think about the rebbe’s tzaar about sleeping it can exempt me from sleeping but not from eating?

    #1644548

    CS
    Participant

    YR: “Sechel, I’ll save you the trouble: It’s Likutei Sichos Chelek 35, Sicha of Parshas Vayigash. Look at Note 6. The reason the Rebbe says about Dovid Hamelech applies to all dead people.”

    Thanks I looked it up. I have referenced it as part of my further research. (Just so you know whst the research entails, I want to know how that shtims with the Rebbe constantly saying that the Frierdiker Rebbe should have techias hameisim and lead us to the Geula? And I have a svara to explain but I want to get more educated first).

    #1644544

    CS
    Participant

    YR: “I.e., those Lubavichers who deify the Rebbe.

    I don’t think you’re like that, CS, but Beis Moshiach’s editors are most certainly closet elokists. They once printed Arnie Gottfried’s article that ended “Hu Elokeinu? The Rebbe, MH”M that’s who”. Which is indefensible, and they rightly got called out for it. But I don’t believe for a moment they’ve changed their shittos. Beis Moshiach’s editors have an agenda, and it’s poisoning Chabad. BTW Gottfried is the one who wrote one of the biggest pro-meshichist proof books in English, and I’ve seen his books in multiple meshichist Chabad houses. So even after that kefiradig article, he’s still considered mainstream by meshichistin.

    Furthermore, Sichas Hageula almost never refers to the Shechina as the shechina, rather they always refer to it as “Atzmus Umehus”. Recent example: On Parshas vayera they wrote “it’s time to turn to HKB”H and ask him “Atzmus Umahus, please take us out of Galus!” There’s no reasonable reason for them to write this that way – except if they have a hidden agenda.

    Sichas Hageula once called the Rebbe “Hakodosh Baruch Hu in a Body” years ago, and they got called out for it as well. But that doesn’t seem to spot it from appearing in meshichists homes.”

    Listen I find this very disturbing and have never heard of it before. On the other hand you were quick to call me a quasi kofer for awhile and still seem to think of Rabbi wolf that way although I know that is really not true. I heard him speak myself on several occasions by nshei crown heights events etc and when I looked up that problematic quote in the magazine I saw straight away what it meant and it wasn’t how you were presenting it.

    So likely, the same applies here. As you know when there was an actual case of people who were ostensibly lubavitch going against halacha under the lubavitch banner, they were put into cherem.

    Now we in lubavitch are the last ones to rush to do that and we take it very seriously. Interestingly I have met Dr. Gotfryd
    myself, and never heard anything like what you describe. Not that I heard him that much but still. Maybe what happened was he wrote that article and was immediately called out on it and explained how wrong it was etc. and then he recanted and has not relapsed since? Well if that’s what happened then there would be no reason to oust him from lubavitch.

    In any case he is not regarded as anything special. I did come across his book in high school and was very skeptical about the whole Rambam part of his book. He is definitely not a Rav of any sort. And beis Moshiach I don’t subscribe to but whenever I have read an issue I have never found any issues with it certainly nothing like you describe. Sorry I can’t provide a better explanation- im lubavitch myself and have never heard of this. And I don’t intend to go researching dirt either. If one of the other lubavitchers has heard of this and knows more clarifying info that would be good to see.

    Finally, it is quite a jump to say that because you can name one person who wrote something outrageous, the whole lubavitch needs to do some serious purging because we have a serious festering problem within. One individual who recanted does not equal a festering lubavitcher kefira problem cvs.

    #1644545

    CS
    Participant

    YR: “This actually makes sense. So you agree the Rebbe’s not halachically chezkas mashiach then?”

    I would say that I’m going to put it on hold for now pending further research (which you have galvanised me to do) and until then I will not use the term. How’s that?

    #1644546

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    I now see why tznius is still being discussed.

    I know I pseudo defended CS recently, but I have to weight in a little here. CS, you have to stop with this “strictly tznius communities don’t count because of societal pressure” garbage. Nobody–including the other Lubavitchers–are going down with the sinking ship that is your argument. Just sweep it under the rug and move on.

    Now, this might not be so politically correct, but I hope they let it through: I know Chabad and any kiruv organization tends to sell this idea that a college girl who isn’t shomer shabbos or nagia, but decides to start wearing skirts (or take on any random single halachah) is doing a way bigger mitzvah than someone in Boro Park who is totally frum. I know you guys need to say this stuff for kiruv, but for the love of all things holy don’t actually start believing it! It’s our duty to make/live in communities that have standards and have that “pressure” to do the right thing. I know there have been some left-wing posters here that have come very close to arguing that having unfiltered internet/smart phones and going to secular college, but resisting temptations is somehow better than just being safely frum like the rest of us. But, to hear it from someone claiming to represent Chassidus? What’s the world coming to?

    #1644563

    samthenylic
    Participant

    Vehayiso MESHUGO mimar’ei enecho – without proper guidance, you come up with crooked “oitaich” of Halacha, and wid up in Sheol Tachtis CH”V!

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