December 15, 2018 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #1645035
DY: “No, we can’t. It’s avodah zarah.”
That’s an impressive one liner that explains how my post was wrong. Great many sources you brought. I hope you never say that Donald trump directs the affairs of America because according to you, it’s avoda zara.December 15, 2018 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm #1645044
“whether I should give birth at home or a hospital after doing the medical and halachic research, ”
Regarding issues like this the Rebbe explicitly said to ask Rofim Yedidim, and follow majority opinion. And we all know what Drs say about homebirths. Halacha is quite clear on this as well, the famed Posek Rav Menashe HaKatan, the Ungvarer Rov, wrote vehemently against the home birth movement, and said that if CVS something were to happen to mother or baby, the mother and or those who talked her into it are Mischayev BeNafsham. Will post source soon.December 15, 2018 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm #1645036
DY: “Just to be clear, that’s not the type of rav you should be asking. You should ask someone normal”
Yeah my Rav definitely is. He also knows when something is out of his league and more of a Rebbe question.December 15, 2018 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #1645056
Rso: “VERY proper, but you’re in the tiny minority in Lubavich in that area.”
Thank you. The scheduling Yeah I’d agree. The not schmoozing with (non family members) of the other gender, that goes for all chassidish people. All our friends. And different communities can be less or more chassidish
as well so maybe your relatives are from a less chassidish community so they’re considered chassidish there maybe? But from what I’ve seen in CH by the chassidish lubavitchers and elsewhere that isn’t the case.December 15, 2018 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #1645061
Source for what i wrote regarding home births:
Mishne Halochos 2:21
Because of the importance of the issue, I felt it necessary to post a free translation of the relevant part of the Tshuva:
Not only is giving birth in hospital permitting, on the contrary, it’s an obligation…
…. It’s well known that hospitals have all kinds of medical equipment on hand if the woman is in danger or if there arise any complications during the birth. They can give oxygen, blood transfusions etc, which isn’t possible at home. We have seen how many woman have died giving birth at home in previous generations, and how nowadays, very few women die in childbirth, being so, it is Assur to endanger any woman by giving birth at home, and it’s possible that if someone happens to her, they will be Chayav Benafsha.
…Even though it’s not certain that complications will arise, it’s considered Safek Pikuach Nefesh, and I personally know of such cases.
עד כאן.December 15, 2018 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #1645058
Two things. Regarding your mm that YR posted, see chelek beis lekutei sichos p 518 where the Rebbe writes that he FR could be moshiach because he could have techias hameisim as an before the general techias hameisim. (This has happened to individuals throughout history see avoda zara 110b)
“Regarding issues like this the Rebbe explicitly said to ask Rofim Yedidim, and follow majority opinion. And we all know what Drs say about homebirths.”
It actually depends on the country and I did the medical research as stated.
“Halacha is quite clear on this as well, the famed Posek Rav Menashe HaKatan, the Ungvarer Rov, wrote vehemently against the home birth movement, and said that if CVS something were to happen to mother or baby, the mother and or those who talked her into it are Mischayev BeNafsham. Will post source soon.”
I called a Rav who said that as long as it’s not more of a sakana than a usual birth (high risk etc) its fine.
Only after that I wrote to the Rebbe, because even if the medical factors of home birth and hospital birth cancel each other out and are equally safe, (not the place for it but what he research of my location showed and medical professionals advised) there still are rare occurrences in which a hospital birth are safer (and others in which a home birth would be safer). So that’s why I wrote in.December 15, 2018 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #1645057
“I hope you never say that Donald trump directs the affairs of America because according to you, it’s avoda zara.”
You seem to be grasping at strawsDecember 15, 2018 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #1645082
“I called a Rav who said that as long as it’s not more of a sakana than a usual birth (high risk etc) its fine.”
That would be true, if it could be true. But as you would know far better than I, unexpected things that weren’t picked up on before by ultrasounds and other testing can arise, and if one isn’t in a hospital, grave danger can arise. A Rov can know all the Halacha and Shulchan Aruch backwards, but must be proficient in the Metzius too. “Atzas Rofe Yedid” never meant Google, it means asking real live specialists in the field, not an online rant by a homeopathic Home Birther.December 15, 2018 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #1645084
SH just to note I wasnt speaking of an unattended home birth obviously one with emergency equipment etc
Syag: not at all. Obviously Hashem is the One running the affairs of America right? So if I say Donald trump does does that make a kofer? No because it’s not a contradiction.
Why would this be any different?December 15, 2018 8:39 pm at 8:39 pm #1645085K-cupParticipant
“Really not. If you’re sincere your not looking to do what you would prefer. You look to do what the right thing is. And it’s not always easy. I went to a different seminary than I the one I dreamed of for years because the letter was so clear that that was the right thing to do. It was one of the most difficult things for me to do, but looking back, it brought me many brachos and I’m so glad I did it.”
I completely understand that, and believe a large number of chassidus experience that as well. It doesn’t mean you received any information directed at you from the rebbe. It is what you imagine he is saying to you. With sincere respect to you and the rebbe, it’s not different than getting a fortune cookie during a difficult time, when you meed some advice, and thinking “Hashem put this very cookie, in my hand, at this moment! I could have taken any other one, or eaten somewhere else! After all, Hashem does run every aspect of my life, this must be a message!”December 15, 2018 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #1645098
CS: ” see avoda zara 110b”
That explains everything. She has a different Shas than the rest of us and in all the extra pages in her Shas it says all the weird things she writes!December 15, 2018 11:32 pm at 11:32 pm #1645145
Seriously? That is the “proof” that we dont respect our tzaddikim and gedolim!? Because we are honest about who they are?! Did you know paroah told the mitzrim he didnt go to the bathroom and they believed that, does that mean they had even more respect for their leader?
It’s not a proof of anything. But if I was an Egyptian talking to another Egyptian, I would say that we respect Pharaoh more than “you” respect Moshe.
Our gedolim and rabbeim are HOLY yidden, not because we think they are god, super human, or free of sin (something we would have NO way of knowing), but because they surround themselves in kedusha. Their yeshivos, offices, kehillas, speech, approach to others is filled with kedusha. And their homes are surrounded by and filled with kedusha thanks to the akeres habayis who is ALWAYS the personification of tznius is behavior and dress.
I agree with you. The Rebbe was definitely very holy, both in terms of Chumros, and in terms of his learning, and in terms of what he surrounded himself with.
I think that you’re missing the context of the conversation. From context, I thought that someone (Chossid) was getting this close to insulting the Gedolim. So I told him that while you do argue with us on how to relate to Gedolim on certain matters, you do, on the whole, relate to your Gedolim with pretty much the same respect that we respect the Rebbe. I never said that you don’t respect your Gedolim.
What happened was, that @np asked what do we argue about in terms of respect. So I quoted a Tanya that you seem to disagree with. This Tanya wasn’t something I made up, or the current Lubavitcher Rebbe made up. It’s an explicit Tanya. While I’m not saying that your Rabbonim can’t argue on him, but he was an accepted Rov, his Shulchan Aruch was quoted in the Mishna Brura, many Lubavitch Chassidim were accepted Poskim, outside the Lubavitch world, throughout the generations (such as the Toras Chesed and Reb Avrohom Chaim Naeh). I think that it would be appropriate to treat his works with the basic respect that they deserve.
Did you ever meet the wives of our gedolim, did you ever read stories about them or talk to people who knew them? These women, the akeres habayis of our gedolim made sure their husbands were surrounded by kedusha. Which, as you see in the quote above above, is the souce of yiras shomayim and cannot be found where there is a lack of tznius.
I’m a man (and so is everyone else on this thread except for @cs and you), so I don’t think it’s very Tzniyus to discuss details, but there are just about 5 pictures of the Rebbetzin that I was able to find. They all look pretty Tzniyus to me.
But the truth is, that while I think I’ve been pretty respectful to your circle and your Gedolim, you don’t seem to be very respectful to other people’s Gedolim.December 15, 2018 11:32 pm at 11:32 pm #1645146
So I’m pattur from eating in the sukkah if I start thinking about the tzaar I’m going to have later if I have to shlep blankets to the sukka when I go to sleep?! Are you really saying that?
If you’re (really) having a panic attack every time you see a Sukkah, I could see a hetter to not eat in a sukkah.
Let me ask you. If someone has true PTSD from a Sukkah. Let’s say someone saw his entire family killed in the Holocaust in a Sukkah, and he himself came within an inch of death, so that whenever he sits in a Sukkah he breaks down in tears, would he be Chayav in Sukkah? From the Klal “Tashvu KeEin Taduru”, I would say no.December 15, 2018 11:33 pm at 11:33 pm #1645147
That explains everything. She has a different Shas than the rest of us and in all the extra pages in her Shas it says all the weird things she writes!
This isn’t quite fair. She’s a female (as her username shows) and doesn’t know Gemaras. You, on the other hand, are a man, learned Gemara, and should realize that it’s a typo. The original Gemara (which I think that she’s referring to) is on 10b:
ה”ל ההיא נקרתא דהוה עיילא מביתיה לבית רבי כל יומא הוה מייתי תרי עבדי חד קטליה אבבא דבי רבי וחד קטליה אבבא דביתיה א”ל בעידנא דאתינא לא נשכח גבר קמך ומא חד אשכחיה לר’ חנינא בר חמא דהוה יתיב אמר לא אמינא לך בעידנא דאתינא לא נשכח גבר קמך א”ל לית דין בר איניש א”ל אימא ליה לההוא עבדא דגני אבבא דקאים וליתי אזל ר’ חנינא בר חמא אשכחיה דהוה קטיל אמר היכי אעביד אי איזיל ואימא ליה דקטיל אין משיבין על הקלקלה אשבקיה ואיזיל קא מזלזלינן במלכותא בעא רחמי עליה ואחייה ושדריה אמר ידענא זוטי דאית בכו מחיה מתים מיהו בעידנא דאתינא לא נשכח איניש קמךDecember 15, 2018 11:33 pm at 11:33 pm #1645149
it’s not different than getting a fortune cookie during a difficult time, when you meed some advice, and thinking “Hashem put this very cookie, in my hand, at this moment! I could have taken any other one, or eaten somewhere else! After all, Hashem does run every aspect of my life, this must be a message!”
Without defending the practice, the Heteirim to do a Goral HaGra don’t apply to fortune cookies.December 15, 2018 11:49 pm at 11:49 pm #1645153
That’s an impressive one liner that explains how my post was wrong. Great many sources you brought. I hope you never say that Donald trump directs the affairs of America because according to you, it’s avoda zara.
Because you wrote a fairly long post which totally didn’t address the tayna.
If someone would say Moshe Rabeinu runs the world it would also be a”z.December 15, 2018 11:49 pm at 11:49 pm #1645154
They all look pretty Tzniyus to me.
There’s online evidence that she didn’t cover her hair k’halacha, and I’ve heard that she wore pants.December 15, 2018 11:49 pm at 11:49 pm #1645155
and its good enough for (some of) my mashpiim
You should find new mashpiim.December 16, 2018 12:01 am at 12:01 am #1645159
Username- two points: you claim that you are respectful of my Gedolim but I am not of yours. You are alone in that respect.
Second, I said nothing about the Baal Hatanya, I commented on the leap that his words apply to your rebbe.
There seems to be a lot of leaping here, tho usually not by you. Comments such as (just an illustration)” the Tanya says x so clearly the rebbe was x” or knowing a gadol spoke to your rebbe and stating, “so you see the gadol held of the rebbe”. This was my complaint, that a definition of a term becomes proof that your rebbe qualifies. And then when I don’t accept it as a proof, you go on about me disagreeing with the Tanya. Please read more carefully, or perhaps don’t assume my words.
I hear a lot about our alleged disrespect of your rebbe. As has been explained many times, if you listen carefully to what we know to be problematic in his words, you should be praising us for defending torah. Regardless of whether or not you agree with our conclusion, you have to accept that since it is our conclusion per Da’as Torah, our response is exactly what it should be.December 16, 2018 12:12 am at 12:12 am #1645161
I DID NOT SAY that there is something wrong with saying that someone is the greatest tzaddik of his generation or the gadol hador (although I don’t know who is really qualified to make such a statement). IT IS SPECIFICALLY THE CONCEPT OF “NOSSI HADOR” THAT I OBJECT TO, and none of the mekoros quoted cite that concept. Is that clear now?
I guess where just miss understanding each other.
Now it seems that you agree with the CONCEPT of nossi hador, that there is someone that is the tzadik of the generation, but you don’t agree with the NAME nossi hador, instead you call it “godel hador” or “tzadik the greatest tzadik of his generation”
Ok fine no problem, where just arguing how to name call it.
So let’s get this straight, the Rebbe didn’t make up the CONCEPT of nossi hador, (because the mekoirios do speak about the CONCEPT), rather applied the NAME nossi hador which is brought in Torah (just not recently). And the name is which you don’t like. Ok I have no problem with that.
Btw you don’t have to agree that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is the (concept of) nossi hador, it’s my personal opinion as a Lubavitcher.
Can we agree on this? Or I’m still getting something wrong?
Now regarding the rambam, that you can’t go without sleep for more then three days.
(Finally got your point)
Good question. I see what your asking.
My personal opinion is that the Rebbe wasn’t an ordinary person, (not cs”v G-d, has people like accused us for) What I mean by that is, he was able to pass over some rules of teva, these are facts, you can ask anyone that knows/had personal story’s with the Rebbe, you can ask doctors that took care of him, especially when the Rebbe had a heart attack in lamid ches, one of the Doctors wore Dr Weiss (I think from Chicago, don’t know if he’s still alive today.) You can check my encounter with the Rebbe, by Jem. I think he was interviewed. If you want I can type up stories, but I just think you are going deny everything I say, so I suggest you just check up and do the research yourself. Before you make an opinion about it. So maybe we was able to stay up for longer, and the rambam was taking about must people, (and I think the halacha would be if hypothetically the Rebbe would take such a Sheva, he would get malkus, because halacha goes according to the norm. But he didn’t).
my personal opinion.
but in the past you say straight out that he didn’t respect halacha.”
When did I say that?
I will have to check up a few pages ago, but i could be wrong that it was you that said it.
Chossid: ” after claiming that “most gedoilim don’t hold of the Rebbe””
Did I really say that? I don’t remember saying it. What I think I remember saying is that most of the chareidi world does not hold of the rebbe, as virtually none of the litvishe/yeshivishe world hold of your rebbe, and MANY right-wing chassidim don’t either.
Sorry that’s what I meant by “gedolim”.
I hope you still got the point.
“There are a number of valid reasons not to mention names of people who have the views that I quote, all of them true in different circumstances……..”
1. And 2. Sounds just excuses.
3. First no Lubavitcher will be “pushed over the line” because of this non sense. Second if you really concerned of that why do you speak openly about it, especially if YOU hold of those people. and third, although I can tell you, it won’t push over a Lubavitcher, it definitely won’t make thousands of people that are being mekurev to Lubavitche (frum and non frum yet), think twice. And if they really hold it’s a borderline to kefirah Cs”v, (which it’s not), don’t you think it’s chiyuv to say there opinion publicly??? So no one should be nichshel? So I don’t think they really hold like that, or they don’t care, or your just making up excuses. Did you even ask them if that is the reason, or came up with this excuse yourself?
4. for some reason the lubavitchers that have non Lubavitche relatives don’t seem to have that problem.
5. Same as 4.
And btw I know a handful of chassidish and litvaks that learn chassidus chabad and go to the ohel in secret . . So leshitascha I don’t think people are afraid to tell them it’s wrung.
Regarding Sheva mitzvos
Now I get what your saying with regard to arvus, you mean kol Yisrael arievim zeh lozeh. Got it now.
There is a chiyuv of arvus to get Yidden to keep the 613 mitzvos. There is NO arvus when it comes to goyim! I other words, paraphrasing what you wrote, the same Oibershter who told us to get Yidden to keep 613 mitzvos DID NOT tell us to get goyim to keep their 7 mitzvos unless we can get them to be mekabel to do so in front of three Jewish chaveirim. If a ben Noach keeps 7 mitzvos but is not mekabel to keep them in front of three chaveirim, he is still chayav misa. Furthermore, he has to be mekabel to keep them because they are what Hashem told Moshe that they are what the original Bnei Noach kept.
Where do you get this “unless” from? Yes it’s true in order form them to be considered a “ger toishov” and be part of “chasidei umois haoilom” they have to megabel them in front of three chaveirim, but doesn’t mean they don’t have a mitzvah to keep their mitzvos. Whether you want to consider it a chiyuv or not, Hashem wants them to keep their mitzvos, so that Hashems rotzion, so it makes sense that you should tell them about it. If you care about Hashem rotzion.
And yes we tell them that “the G-d commanded you to don’t these comments.
“We have no arvus for goyim therefore means that we are not responsible for their actions, and whether they keep their mitzvos or not does not affect us either for the good or the bad.”
It’s not about affecting us, it’s about affecting Hashem. And btw it does affect us physically, like the Rebbe said, that you if they knew there’s a God in the world and looking upon you, they wouldn’t be any murder or steal from anyone etc. For that reason the Rebbe instituted a moment of silence in schools, that there’s a time in the day where they focus and think about Hashem.
“certainly telling a ben Noach not to eat eiver min hachai because it’s cruel to animals is plain wrong.”
True. Even though it might be the reason, but you should tell them that Hashem told you to do it, and that is what the Rebbe wanted and spoke about in Farbrengens, for example regarding a moment of silence, same topic as Sheva mitzvos
“Whoa! First, I don’t believe he had ruach haKodesh, or did miracles, so you’re proving me wrong by saying something I don’t believe.”
Interesting how is it’s possible to say that, after thousands of people had personal encounters and stories of miracles and Ruach hakodesh that happened to them personally???? Are you denying all that עדות? I guess your just clueless, if you only knew you wouldn’t say that.
“So you see that not holding of the latter does not necessarily mean you don’t hold of the former.”
The names I quoted wore in support of regular Lubavitchers, and the Rebbe himself. Like rabbeim i have mentioned, like Rabbi Wolfsin from Boro park.
Either way lishitasch why don’t you learn chabad chassidus at least Tanya.
” I would expect that you don’t hold too highly of Rav Shach, and I easily accept that. You are therefore justified in coming to logical conclusions about his views and actions even though you are not a tzaddik or a gadol.”
First I never said anything about him .
Second I don’t have a PERSONAL opinion about him, I only have what the Rebbe said about him. (And maybe some others). Even though Lubavitche didn’t hold of him I surely acknowledge the fact that he knows more Torah then me, So I won’t argue with him in that (at least in niglah;)). Not like you who simply denies facts according to your personal shita (at least till you tell me names).
The truth is I really would want to end this conversation, I’m wasting too much time, and it’s addicting.
I hope i didn’t miss understand you this time so I can finish with it.December 16, 2018 12:24 am at 12:24 am #1645165
Chossid- none of us are denying anything from our own personal shittos. That’s the point.December 16, 2018 12:28 am at 12:28 am #1645171
There’s online evidence that she didn’t cover her hair k’halacha
I’ve seen that there’s a Nshei Chabad newsletter who interviewed her Sheitel Macher of the last 20 years of her life.
Now, it’s not good evidence, as she’s a Lubavitcher and could be covering up. But there’s no reason for the Rebbetzin to have gotten her Shaitels from outside Lubavitch. So while there’s no smoking gun that she wore a Shaitel, there’s no reason to assume she didn’t.
For the record, Rebbetzin Nechama Dina (the Frierdiker Rebbe’s Rebbetzin) wore a Shaitel Lav Davka with a hat, Rebbetzin Shterna Sarah wore a Shaitel Lav Davka with a hat, and we don’t have pictures of any of the earlier Rebbetzins.
and I’ve heard that she wore pants.
After a quick search, the only source of that I was able to find online was FailedMessiah (and in the comment section, a few people asked for a source. They didn’t get any response).
I hope you don’t get your information from that rag.December 16, 2018 1:14 am at 1:14 am #1645176
“There’s online evidence that she didn’t cover her hair k’halacha, and I’ve heard that she wore pants”
There’s online evidence that vaccines cause Austism, man didn’t land on the moon, the Royal family killed Dianne, and Bush / CIA / Mossad did 9/11.
I saw a B’feirishe video with an important Doctor saying that vaccines cause Austism. And there’s a B’feirishe video (many actually) which links Mossad to 9/11.
Username beat me to it, but if you want to rely on Failed Messiah for “evidence” you’re going to have to believe lots of shmutz on the general frum world as well, not just Chabad.December 16, 2018 1:14 am at 1:14 am #1645177K-cupParticipant
“Without defending the practice, the Heteirim to do a Goral HaGra don’t apply to fortune cookies”
Do you really think you or chabadshlucha are performing a goral hagra? Do you think you’re utilizing its principals? You guys really understand how it works so you can do similar things? Do you know when we do a goral hagra? and why only in those cases?
NOTHING TO DO WITH A GORAL HAGRADecember 16, 2018 1:21 am at 1:21 am #1645180
Yes, it does say online that vaccine causes autism, it also says online that Chanukah is the 25th of kislev. If something isn’t true there needs to be a better reason than it being online.
Side point, I don’t acknowledge failed messiah let alone consider it a source for anything. Also, I don’t know if the Rebbetzin covered her hair or not but I looked for those online pictures you mentioned and there is no question it is not a sheital. These pictures are old, none are recent, but they are definitely her hair.December 16, 2018 1:22 am at 1:22 am #1645181
“Chossid- none of us are denying anything from our own personal shittos. That’s the point.”
“There’s online evidence that she didn’t cover her hair k’halacha, and I’ve heard that she wore pants.”
What’s Online evidence in first place? Just because someone rights something online all of a sudden it comes evidence?
Is this where you get your facts from?
Do you know how much the Rebbe spoke about women waering shietuls? I think you should ask the caretakers of the Rebbes house how she acted before you start opening your mouth.
Hardly anyone saw her, she was hardly seen in the public that’s how tzunah she was. If someone ever saw the rebbitzin it was considered a big thing, because most people are see her. So you have to ask the people around before you start assuming things.
Am I asking too much?
Sorry for my tone.December 16, 2018 1:30 am at 1:30 am #1645184
So now I’m confused… neither of your answers state that she did in fact cover her hair. Does that mean she didn’t? Or that you don’t know? And what do you mean that hardly anyone saw her? Wasn’t their house open with constant streams of people as is the case with Gedolim, great rabbeim and people who live for the kehilla? Didn’t they have hundreds of shabbos guests? Didn’t the females who where desperate for Brachos and chizuk find a place at her door?
I ask because this is all I know about any and every great tzaddik in litvish and Chassidik circles, past and present, so I always assumed it was the same by the Lubavitche rebbe and Rebbetzin.December 16, 2018 1:31 am at 1:31 am #1645185
Enough with the moitzi Shem rah.
If you’re interested in getting true info about Lubavitche and finding out the facts, you know very well it’s not from this online “evidence” thing that you should be getting the truth. from.December 16, 2018 1:47 am at 1:47 am #1645189
You are alone in that respect.
I think that Sechel Hayashar is also.
Second, I said nothing about the Baal Hatanya, I commented on the leap that his words apply to your rebbe.
The comparison between “The Rebbe never sinned” and “Pharaoh never went to the bathroom” implies that:
1. It’s impossible. Arguing on the Tanya, but I will admit that it’s quite possible that it’s within your rights, as it’s quite possible that other Gedolim argued on the Tanya on that point.
2. It’s Avoda Zara or Kefira to say such a thing about a person, any person. Which is implying that the Tanya is Avoda Zarah or Kefira. And it’s to this point I objected. But hey, if you didn’t mean that, I take it back.
or knowing a gadol spoke to your rebbe and stating, “so you see the gadol held of the rebbe”. This was my complaint, that a definition of a term becomes proof that your rebbe qualifies.
It depends on what you mean by “holding”. I agree, that just because, say, Reb Moshe was on decent terms with the Rebbe doesn’t mean that he felt that his Piskei Dinim were binding or was his Chossid, and Aderaba, he argued on the Rebbe many times. But it does show that despite all the questions people have here on the Rebbe and on Lubavitch, he held that he was Bichlal Amisecha, was not a Kofer, and was worth responding to. And all the more so, when a Gedol visits the Rebbe, it shows that he views the Rebbe as someone worth visiting. I mean, I have a lot of friends in NY, and the Mishne Halachos never visited them, so you can imply that the Mishna Halachos viewed the Rebbe higher than he viewed my friends. Now it obviously didn’t make the Mishna Halachos the Rebbe’s Chossid, and it wouldn’t surprise me to know that he argued on the Rebbe. But it shows that he viewed the Rebbe as a Gadol (he did write Zatzal after the Rebbe’s name).
I hear a lot about our alleged disrespect of your rebbe. As has been explained many times, if you listen carefully to what we know to be problematic in his words, you should be praising us for defending torah. Regardless of whether or not you agree with our conclusion, you have to accept that since it is our conclusion per Da’as Torah, our response is exactly what it should be.
It is true, that if your Rov (the one who is your final Posek, the one you listen to LeChumra VeLekula) is one of those who’s actively fighting Lubavitch, Al Pi Halacha you’re probably obligated to do so too. But it’s simply not true that every single Litvish Gadol opposed the Rebbe and Chabad. Especially now, some of those who fought Lubavitch have calmed down their fights, and while they probably disagree with us in Hashkafa, they definitely aren’t waging war. Reb Aharon Teitelbaum (one of the Satmar Rebbe), for example, for example, davens in Chabad when he goes to Palm Springs. So while I’m not saying he endorses Chabad and our Hashkafos, he definitely doesn’t view it as a house of Kefira.December 16, 2018 2:02 am at 2:02 am #1645191
you know very well it’s not from this online “evidence” thing that you should be getting the truth. from
I’ve seen pictures. Including on chabad . org.December 16, 2018 2:02 am at 2:02 am #1645192
Thank you for your answers. I think those are among the first straight answers I’ve received hereDecember 16, 2018 2:14 am at 2:14 am #1645195
Do you know how much the Rebbe spoke about women waering shietuls?
Sure, because he knew, first hand, that wearing a different kind of covering often leaves the hair partially uncovered. In the famous picture of her, which is on the official Chabad website, she’s not wearing a sheitel. Defending her by saying, “Do you know how much the Rebbe spoke about women waering shietuls?” is really odd when she clearly didn’t (always) wear one.
And btw, I don’t only know this from the internet, but that’s the only evidence I can show you.December 16, 2018 2:25 am at 2:25 am #1645198
“YOU ARE ALONE IN THAT RESPECT.
I think that Sechel Hayashar is also.”
Indeed. I am very respectful of Gedolei Yisrael, and have actually referenced their Sforim, and learned their Piskei Halacha, and seen their Chiddushim. As Orech Roshi of a certain Kovetz Haaros of a Lubavitcher Yeshiva, I personally mailed Seforim to many Gedolei Yisrael of America, and several in Eretz Yisrael. Among them were Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky and Rav Malkiel Kotler Sheyichyu. And if you will say that perhaps this is my own endeavor, but most Lubavitchers aren’t “Gores” the Gedolim, I did this because of the instructions of our Rosh Yeshiva, a very prominent and we’ll known Lubavitch, who’s on fabulous terms with the Gedolei Admorim and Rabbonim, who personally visit him when in his city, and even give Shiurim in his Yeshiva.
I can say without doubt, that I am far more respectful of “your” Gedolim than many here are of the Lubavitcher Rebbe Z”ya.December 16, 2018 7:39 am at 7:39 am #1645200
“In the famous picture of her, which is on the official Chabad website, she’s not wearing a sheitel.”
How would you know that from seeing a picture? Because she has a hat with hair protruding? The Minhag in Beis HaRav was to wear a hat on top of the Sheitel, and I see no reason to believe that the Rebbetzin was any different to her predecessors.
“And what do you mean that hardly anyone saw her? Wasn’t their house open with constant streams of people as is the case with Gedolim, great rabbeim and people who live for the kehilla? Didn’t they have hundreds of shabbos guests? Didn’t the females who where desperate for Brachos and chizuk find a place at her door?”
The Rebbetzin was an extremely private individual, and there were no streams of people coming through her home. The only times streams of Gedolim came through the Rebbes own home was when he was sitting Shiva. Gedolim visited the Rebbe in 770, whether for Yechidus, or in the later years, for Dollars. If you are so interested, you can listen to audio and watch video of many of those visits. One particularly well known audio is the visit of the Belzer Rebbe. But it seems from your tone that you are being sarcastic, and trying in intimate that if the Rebbe didn’t have throngs of people streaming through his home obviously he didn’t “live for the kehilla” as did other Gedolim, totally ignoring the fact that the Rebbe spent most of his time in 770, and that’s where countless individuals met with him, Gedolim or simple folk.December 16, 2018 7:44 am at 7:44 am #1645245
username: “This isn’t quite fair. She’s a female (as her username shows) and doesn’t know Gemaras. You, on the other hand…”
I, on the other hand, was just joking!December 16, 2018 7:45 am at 7:45 am #1645250
username: “If someone has true PTSD from a Sukkah”
Then he needs to see a doctor. I don’t believe any non-Lubavich Rov in the world will accept that one can consider not having tzaar as the cause of tzaar that patters one from a sukkah. Lubavicher Rabbonim will only pasken that it can be the cause of tzaar because your rebbe said so, but once we’re disputing the validity of that sevoro then relying on him doesn’t count.December 16, 2018 7:48 am at 7:48 am #1645257
username: “Without defending the practice, the Heteirim to do a Goral HaGra don’t apply to fortune cookies.”
I know very little about Goral Hagra but I believe it was instituted by the Gra, and that’s good enough for me. If looking in the Igros was institued by the lubavicher rebbe then I can understand that it’s good enough for any lubavicher. But it wasn’t, so therefore even for a lubaicher it should have the same validity on relying on the Hashgocho Protis of a fortune cookie.December 16, 2018 7:48 am at 7:48 am #1645268
Chossid: “So let’s get this straight, the Rebbe didn’t make up the CONCEPT of nossi hador, (because the mekoirios do speak about the CONCEPT), rather applied the NAME nossi hador which is brought in Torah (just not recently). And the name is which you don’t like. Ok I have no problem with that.”
We still don’t quite see eye to eye on that. The title Nossi Hador implies more than tzadik hador or gadol hador. It is something akin to what Moshe Rabbeinu was, and applying that title to someone nowadays while meaning the same as tzadik hador is “cheating”.December 16, 2018 7:49 am at 7:49 am #1645272
Chosid: “My personal opinion is that the Rebbe wasn’t an ordinary person…”
There are many tzaddikim over all the generations about who I believe were way above ordinary, but I do not believe that any of them went 72 hours without any sleep at all because if it’s the halachah it applies to every Yid. That’s what I meant when I said that your rebbe claimed to believe in the primary of halachah.
Being extra-special and even performing miracles does not change the Rambam’s halachah. Therefore, even were I to believe in your rebbe the way you do I would still say that he must have slept over Sukkos, regardless of what his aides said.December 16, 2018 7:50 am at 7:50 am #1645273
Chossid: “Where do you get this “unless” from?”
I get it from the Rambam where it is quite clear that even if a goy keeps 7 mitzvos he is doing nothing unless he is mekabel in front of three chaveirim.
“Either way lishitasch why don’t you learn chabad chassidus at least Tanya.”
I have mentioned before that I have learnt Tanya, and quite likely even before you were born (even though I have absolutely no idea how old you are!).
“Not like you who simply denies facts according to your personal shita (at least till you tell me names).”
I gave you five reasons why I don’t give names. As I wrote earlier, you don’t have to believe me, but all the shitos that I have espoused I have learnt from sources higher than myself.
“The truth is I really would want to end this conversation, I’m wasting too much time, and it’s addicting.”
My sentiments EXACTLY!
“I hope i didn’t miss understand you this time so I can finish with it.”
I don’t think you misunderstood anything. But I don’t agree with much of what you write.December 16, 2018 7:52 am at 7:52 am #1645274
username: “After a quick search, the only source of that I was able to find online was FailedMessiah”
I don’t want to get involved in this area of argument, but I heard/saw sources way before FailedMessiah took to the airwaves.
Yes, he was trash, and anti basically anything frum. I wouldn’t recomment citing him as a source in anything at all. But, as I wrote, people were saying these things way before him. And please don’t challenge me to bring proofs because, as I wrote, I don’t want to get involved in this sub-topic because it’s not bekovodik.December 16, 2018 7:52 am at 7:52 am #1645302
Sarcastic? I’m not sarcastic I’m floored! I’m baffled, puzzled and frankly I can’t even fathom such a scenario.But I <em>am</em> sick of you applying bad intentions to myself and others, which is why I would hardly think of you as respectful and why I try not to address you.December 16, 2018 8:45 am at 8:45 am #1645326
And although I don’t know why I should bother explaining , I added the phrase “live for the kehilla” because that was a third catagory I was trying to include of people who are not Gedolim or rabbeim but are just that.December 16, 2018 8:55 am at 8:55 am #1645339
“I can say without doubt, that I am far more respectful of “your” Gedolim than many here are of the Lubavitcher Rebbe Z”ya.“
I can say without a doubt that if our Gedolim considered themselves Moshiach (ch”v) we wouldn’t respect them either. It seems you aren’t understanding that connection.
There are 3 people I can think of who were very respected and wrote sforim and/or books and gave lectures and were held in high regard. When they suddenly made claims that did not shtim with Hashkafa or proper halacha, those that respected them immediately turned their backs. We practice what we preach and have valid tainas on those who would consider doing differentlyDecember 16, 2018 9:45 am at 9:45 am #1645356
A bit off the current topic – – I had posted this earlier but don’t see it anywhere so it must not have gone thru.
Some of the things that a few posters have said made me wonder about something –
It has been mentioned that there are many stories about miracles the rebbe did for people from all walks of life thru advice and brochos. I myself know individuals who have had such experiences when visiting the rebbe, both lubavitchers and non. I don’t think anyone refutes those claims. My question is, tho, are you aware that there are many many others who have done, and still do the same? Most (if not all) of the gedolei Hador, including Rav Chaim Kanievsky to this day have done the same thru advice and brachos etc. I even know much “smaller” people (unknown people who are huge talmidei chachamim and serve kehillow or yeshivos but are not widely known) who do so even today.
This seems to have been brought by CS and chossid as “proofs” of the rebbes omniscience, so it makes me wonder if you/they are aware that this is something that we find across many many gedolim and tzaddikim of past and present.December 16, 2018 9:45 am at 9:45 am #1645355
If you’re (really) having a panic attack every time you see a Sukkah, I could see a hetter to not eat in a sukkah.
If that panic attack is caused by your version of “chassidus”, you need to start grasping that there’s something seriously wrong with “chassidus” which prevents you from doing mitzvos rather than enhancing your avodas Hashem, which is obviously what genuine chassidus is about.December 16, 2018 9:59 am at 9:59 am #1645362
“Sarcastic? I’m not sarcastic I’m floored! I’m baffled, puzzled and frankly I can’t even fathom such a scenario.But I am sick of you applying bad intentions to myself and others, which is why I would hardly think of you as respectful and why I try not to address you.”
I wrote “it seems from your tone” I didn’t establish that as fact. If you weren’t being sarcastic, I sincerely apologise.December 16, 2018 10:20 am at 10:20 am #1645371☕️coffee addictParticipant
I don’t understand why anyone is talking about how the Lubavitcher rebbitzin dressed (with or w/o a sheitel) isn’t the whole discussion about whether the chassidim strayed or not?December 16, 2018 10:40 am at 10:40 am #1645376
isn’t the whole discussion about whether the chassidim strayed or not?
NoDecember 16, 2018 10:49 am at 10:49 am #1645381☕️coffee addictParticipant
So what did the topic change to now?
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