April 17, 2018 2:32 pm at 2:32 pm #1507402
What’s the deal with this “all beer in the metropolitan area is Chometz shel issur” situation?
YWN posted a recorded shiur about it, which I interpreted as meaning it’s a less serious situation than one that would require a written announcement. I read that “this year” the beer king did sell his chometz, but the Star K wasn’t okay with the sale. Does that imply in previous years he didn’t sell it at all and it was for sure assur?April 17, 2018 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #1507432JosephParticipant
Who/what is “the beer king”? Which beer is affected? Why only the metro area?April 17, 2018 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #1507431
This is what happend, the beer WAS Sold , however the owner isnt Religious and some communities hold than a non-religious jew cannot sell his Chametz (I belive this is the shitta of Rav Moshe)
The Star-K hold that a non-religious jew can sell his chametz, Satmar does notApril 17, 2018 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #1507430
Does that imply in previous years he didn’t sell it at all and it was for sure assur?
YesApril 17, 2018 2:43 pm at 2:43 pm #1507443
ZD, I think you’ve got it a little mixed up.
The issue isn’t whether an irreligious Jew can sell his chometz, it’s whether the sale is considered a sham if he keeps his business open on Pesach.
R’ Moshe was actually mattir (although the beer bought by the company on Pesach would still be a problem), but the Star K, OU, and others follow the opinion that it’s not a valid sale.April 17, 2018 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #1507453
I think what ZD was talking about is a shittah that if the seller has no idea what the Mechira is doing and how it’s doing it, then it’s a sham. I do believe I heard Reb Moshe holds this way (I imagined it would still be good bedieved though).
So wait, in previous years it’s just an annual ritual that all NYC beer is treif from Pesach to June? I’m an out-of-towner clearly. And, the OU is more machmir than Reb Moshe on this halachah?April 17, 2018 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #1507455
Adding to the brew-haha (HT Dovid Lichtenstein) was the fact that the kashrus agencies realized it was a problem this year and tried to get Mr. Bergson to do a mechira, but until Rav Kalman Weinfeld used his creativity and tenacity to concmvince him, it seemed he would never agree, so statements ended up getting released as if there was no mechira whatsoever.April 17, 2018 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm #1507456
And Joseph, there’s a good article in the 5 Towns Jewish Times about it that lists all beers affected. But, to keep it simple, it’s pretty much every single beer you’ll find in a liquor store. It sounds like almost every liquor store in NYC gets their beer from the same distributor, who is Jewish.April 17, 2018 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #1507506
there’s a good article in the 5 Towns Jewish Times about itApril 17, 2018 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #1507466
The Kollel Store in Boro Park has advertised that they purchased enough supply of beer before pesach and sold it with their mechira and will not have to purchase from the distributor until shavuous.April 17, 2018 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #1507515
it’s pretty much every single beer you’ll find in a liquor store.
I don’t think they sell beer in liquor stores, rather, supermarkets for the most part.April 17, 2018 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #1507532
The Kollel Store in Boro Park has advertised that they purchased enough supply of beer before pesach and sold it with their mechira and will not have to purchase from the distributor until shavuous.
They also said they have known about this for years. Where has everyone else been?April 17, 2018 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #1507938
DY: I don’t see where the ad says what you wrote. It says this has been “our practice for a number of years”.April 17, 2018 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #1507618GAONParticipant
“They also said they have known about this for years. Where has everyone else been?”
Interesting, it seems like it has only gained publicity due to OK managing to finally implement a Mechirah (which according to everyone is better than none).
All these years it has been no shaileh Asur l’kulah Almah. The non-religious owner refused to sell his Chametz.April 17, 2018 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #1507634yitzchokmParticipant
Rabbi Eckstein from Belz says it’s ok.April 17, 2018 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #1507660
They Sell beer at the Gas Station
What else are you supposed to drink when you are thirsty driving home from somewhereApril 17, 2018 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #1507922
I listened to part of the shiur osted by YWN. Rabbi elefant of the OU said rather clearly, it was NOT known who the owner of this beer distributor was until this year. He also said, in this regard the OU follows the psak of Rav Solevetchik Z’l that the mechira in this particular scenario (not your garden variety mechira) is not a valid mechira. He also very clearly said, that this is a machlokes haposkim with recognized poskim on both sides of the issue and one should consult his own Rav what to do.
The CRC (williamsburg) listed half a dozen brands that are not distributed by this company and are not at issue here.April 17, 2018 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #1507950
DY: I don’t see where the ad says what you wrote. It says this has been “our practice for a number of years”.
Why would they go out of their way to not buy from them from Pesach until Shavuos if it wasn’t an issue?
Rabbi elefant of the OU said rather clearly, it was NOT known who the owner of this beer distributor was until this year.
KRM apparently knew.April 17, 2018 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm #1507954
Also, a rav from the Bronx had been trying to convince him for years to sell; he obviously knew…April 17, 2018 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #1507965Uncle BenParticipant
I think it was mentioned somewhere that due to industry consolation the Jewish owned distributor just recently acquired a majority of the wholesale market in this area rendering it assur.April 17, 2018 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #1507969
DY: At one time (back in the 1990’s), KRM sold their Chametz through R’ Asher Zimmerman Tzatzal, who required a minimum of 4 weeks of inventory of all chametz to be purchased prior to Pesach. It could be that they were doing what they always have done.April 17, 2018 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #1507973Uncle BenParticipant
Industry consolidation! The consolation is for the beer drinkers!April 17, 2018 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #1507982Midwest2Participant
So people in the NYC area can’t just go without beer until Shavuos? I like beer too, but I can certainly live without it for a few weeks. As noted above, “… that this is a machlokes haposkim with recognized poskim on both sides of the issue and one should consult his own Rav what to do. ” So consult your posek, and if the prospect of going without beer next year is too distressing, buy enough and sell it with the chometz (unless you’re one of those who doesn’t sell real chometz, in which case I advise you to switch to wine.)
It’s a good thing that the possibility of a sheilah has been recognized, but it’s nothing to get very excited about. Just follow your Rav.April 17, 2018 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #1508004icemelterParticipant
“It’s a good thing that the possibility of a sheilah has been recognized, but it’s nothing to get very excited about. Just follow your Rav.”
-Indeed nothing to get excited about, unless you are a staunch supporter of the OK that is. Then of course you take it as a personal attack on your “type”.April 17, 2018 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #1508014
At one time (back in the 1990’s), KRM sold their Chametz through R’ Asher Zimmerman Tzatzal, who required a minimum of 4 weeks of inventory of all chametz to be purchased prior to Pesach.
Even purchased from non-Jews?April 17, 2018 9:43 pm at 9:43 pm #1508017
No one is addressing the fundamental and baseline question:
(Assuming the valid sale didn’t exist)
If you buy a beer from a random store, what are the odds that 1. *this* beer was 2. *owned* by a 3. *Jew* 4. *on pesach*.
Need all four. I’m not a great mathematics lian but I believe R’ Moshe held that a greater than 50% likelihood of *all four* means that one should be machmir lechatchila on this Safek derabanan.
Who has the burden of proving the math?
Why are people making all assumptions to chumra?
Why are people applying psakim about Jewish stores which definitely owned *this item* of chometz, to distributors?
All this said, ask a Rabbi. But make sure he knows math, doesn’t get affected by peer pressure, and is capable of distinguishing between things that need to be distinguished.April 17, 2018 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #1508026
If you buy a beer from a random store, what are the odds that 1. *this* beer was 2. *owned* by a 3. *Jew* 4. *on pesach*.
Need all four.
More than 50% right after Pesach. This company distributes a majority of the listed beers in NY.
It’s not pashut l’halacha that going under 50% would make it muttar either.April 17, 2018 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #1508025☕️coffee addictParticipant
So people in the NYC area can’t just go without beer until Shavuos?
I wouldn’t be surprised if people in the Midwest couldn’t eitherApril 18, 2018 6:41 am at 6:41 am #1508091
So people in the NYC area can’t just go without beer until Shavuos?
I always hated that argument, likely written by someone who is not a beer drinker, Most likely you would feel differently if it was your favorite food or beverage we were talking about (For the record I am not such a big beer drinking, very rarely do I have one , but when I do its from one on this list and not one of the other ones not controlled by a Jew like Budweiser. Sam Adams is much better than Budweiser)April 18, 2018 6:44 am at 6:44 am #1508084
DY: I don’t know if it was any easier then to determine who actually owned the chametz over pesach; the supplier or the distributor. I also don’t know if they used non-jewish suppliers as most of the salesmen I saw while working in KRM were frum.April 18, 2018 7:26 am at 7:26 am #1508066☢️ Rand0m3x 🎲Participant
1. *this* beer was 2. *owned* by a 3. *Jew* 4. *on Pesach*.
I’m probably “not a great mathematics lian” either –
maybe that’s why I don’t understand question #2 at all,
or why “this beer” is a question.April 18, 2018 9:19 am at 9:19 am #1508139
It’s only a safek if you don’t know where the store gets its beer, and I believe you could technically inquire (as impractical as that may be).
Midwest: The point is not that we’re complaining about having to go without beer. The reason we’re “excited” about it is that A) not enough people seem to be aware of this and many frum yidden might be consuming treif, B) it sounds like in previous years it was super assur without even a bad mechira to rely on bedieved; so, what does that mean if you drank beer last year before this came out? What if you cooked with beer?
If there were people who knew about this for years, why weren’t they releasing announcements? Having something that’s for sure assur isn’t worth mentioning, but once some people controversially claim it’s mutar it suddenly gets ink?April 18, 2018 9:19 am at 9:19 am #1508133
I don’t know if it was any easier then to determine who actually owned the chametz over pesach; the supplier or the distributor. I also don’t know if they used non-jewish suppliers as most of the salesmen I saw while working in KRM were frum.
Are you saying KRM was not certain who owns Manhattan Beer Distributing until this year either?April 18, 2018 10:34 am at 10:34 am #1508233
According to the audio posted by YWN. 75% of all beer of particular brands sold in supermarkets and other venues in the NY area moves through the distributor in question. Half dozen brands that are not sold by this company are listed by the CRC.
“So people in the NYC area can’t just go without beer until Shavuos?”
Should we substitute wine, scotch or bourbon at a shalom zachar? Should we tell women not to give birth to boys between pesach and shavuos?April 18, 2018 10:58 am at 10:58 am #1508261
DY: I have no personal knowledge if the owners/managers of KRM know who owns the beer distributorship. There advertisement only states that as their practice has been for years, they bought enough prior to pesach so they don’t have to buy until shavuous. I don’t know how much beer they actually sell but I am sure it is less then what is sold in ShopRite.April 18, 2018 11:10 am at 11:10 am #1508280samthenylicParticipant
Re; “Ever purchased from Non-Jews?”
How do Bobover Chasidim make Havdala on Motzei Pesach on BEER without purchasing from a non-Jew?
I wonder what they did this year?April 18, 2018 1:04 pm at 1:04 pm #1508314
they probably went to local non jewish beer seller and purchased one of half dozen brands of beer not distributed by the jewish owned distributor.April 18, 2018 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #1508519👑RebYidd23Participant
Is beer even that good?April 18, 2018 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #1508548
This beer as opposed to other beer, obviously. Owned as opposed to not owned, obviously. And regarding “mathematics lian,” both of us should defer to mathematicians regarding both the calculation of cumulative odds, and also regarding frequency of typos and how often they affect the content of an argument.April 18, 2018 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #1508568Midwest2Participant
Neville – thanks for the clarification. Since I don’t live in the New York area I did’t realize the issue. OOT you usually know everyone who sells kosher and the local rabbonim keep track of where it’s safe to buy after Pesach anyway.
It’s a little frightening to think that people could have been drinking non-permissible beer for years and no one’s ever said anything.April 18, 2018 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #1508570
@dy, Mr. “greater than 50%,” do you have any evidence supporting that bold assertion? Does that evidence apply to all liquor stores? In my personal liquor store, often, beer stays on the shelf for more than 2 weeks. Often it does not. The owner does not know which beer arrived, when. On which days, if any, would you assume issur in said case? Do you have a halachik source for this (under the psak halacha that this is a Safek derabanan?)
Does a distributor own the product? What if the founding manager holds the controlling shares of his corporation in a trust with the benficiaries not being Jewish. how would you know or calculate these odds?
How many days does the average beer bottle stay with the distributor?April 19, 2018 9:24 am at 9:24 am #1508684
Frumnotyeshivish: The Jewish 5 Towns article referenced earlier has all the information including the “greater than 50% statistic.” You might want to scroll up the thread a bit before you start screaming at people. As for the stock ownership, I’ve never really understood how stock ownership in chametz over Pesach works, and I’m sure it’s really interesting, but that would really derail this thread.
As for this “math” business. I think randomex was [rightly] objecting to it being broken into 4 different things. 1) this beer and 2) owned by and 3) a Jew are really only one safek, not 3. The beer you’re looking at was either owned by a Jew or a goy, that’s not 3 distinct questions.April 19, 2018 9:52 am at 9:52 am #1508708
Ill admit I have always found it strange to say someone committed an Averiah by eating something not permitted because of events not controllable by the consumer.
Simply if something had a Hecher and it turned out the supplier was dishonest and cheated, Its not your fault for eating the non-kosher items.
In todays society we do not control the food, We are not farmers, cattlemen or anything related to the production and distribution of food. Unless a person is willing to farm and raise animals you cannot control outside events. Obviosuly one should be dilligent (Meaning its wrong to go into a McDonalds for example) but if one goes to a frum store and buys an item with an acceptable Hashghcha, one can reasonable assume its kosher and if its not, the Averirah should be on the person who made the mistake , not the consumerApril 19, 2018 10:39 am at 10:39 am #1508719
“the Averirah should be on the person who made the mistake , not the consumer”
when moshiach comes, bimheira biyameinu, im not certain a kashrus agency will fall into the category of “beis din” that would bring a par helem davar and the individual would bring his own chattas regardless. regardless, whether it is a dioraisa or a dirabbanan, it is the halacha and one should be diligent and not put the onus on someone else.April 19, 2018 11:39 am at 11:39 am #1508725
frumnotyeshivish: can you please clarify to which of my posts you are commenting on in Reply # 1508548? It doesn’t seem to address any post that I made in this thread.April 19, 2018 11:40 am at 11:40 am #1508726
I never said not to be Dillgent, I never said not to be careful, I am talking about things out of the consumers control which is a faily common occurance in todays society where the individual does not control the foodApril 19, 2018 11:51 am at 11:51 am #1508838
DY: I have no personal knowledge if the owners/managers of KRM know who owns the beer distributorship.
The flyer strongly implies that they do.April 19, 2018 12:05 pm at 12:05 pm #1508852
iac: I meant randomex, my apologies.
Neville I’m not yelling. You appear to be confusing mathematics and the “din” of a “safek” or sfeik sfeika.
The beer in front of you in the liqour store was either in the hand of a jewish distributor over pesach or not. One Safek, let’s say, but how do you calculate odds? Say 40% of the beer in this store was purchased at a time where there is a 75% chance that it was in the hands of a Jew over pesach. What are the odds that the bottle in front of you is Chometz sheovar? there are other mathematical questions as well.
Assuming that there is a 50% halachik threshold regarding the odds of this “safek derabanan” in order to tell someone else to be machmir lechatchila, don’t you think your position is irresponsible? If you disagree with the 50% number as a matter of halacha, that’s a different story but say so, in straightforward way.April 20, 2018 8:06 am at 8:06 am #1509152
“Assuming that there is a 50% halachik threshold regarding the odds of this “safek derabanan””
Who said this is a derabanan? Ignoring that, I’m not sure you would even go after rov in this case. The beer is in its makom kavua, and you’d be relying on a safek that you can mitigate. If it’s possible for the community to inquire from a local store when they bought their beer (it’s probably even possible for an individual to do this) then you could get rid of the safek.
Also, the “irresponsible position” that you reference is not coming from me, but from several mainstream kashrus agencies.April 20, 2018 8:17 am at 8:17 am #1509165
ZD, I get what your saying, but I think this is a classic exception. If a kashrus agency accidentally hechshered something treif (I heard a rumor this happened with Lucky Charms once) then you could say it’s not your fault for eating it.
With things like Chometz shel issur, and Chadash/Yoshon (if applicable) where something’s kosher status can be kind of relative, it’s certainly the consumer’s responsibility as difficult as that may be. Now, if you’re talking about the beer in previous years when we didn’t know about this, maybe it is kind of like the Lucky Charms. But, this year, now that we know the problem, it’s for sure our responsibility.
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