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November 8, 2025 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #2468962SQUARE_ROOTParticipant
The Three Oaths Dilemma Dividing Jewish Zionists from Anti-Zionists
Are the Three Oaths halakhah (mandated Jewish law) in practice today?
2018 June 13 on www (dot) IsraelNationalNews (dot) com__________________________________________
The Talmud cites three oaths which G-d administered:“One oath was that Israel would not make Aliyah ‘as a wall’;
and one oath was that G-d adjured Israel not to rebel against the nations;
and one oath was that G-d adjured the nations not to persecute Israel too much” (Ketuvot 111A).
Of these three oaths, therefore, two apply to Israel and one to the other nations.__________________________________________
These Three Oaths are the basis for the ostensibly religious Jewish opposition to Zionism:
the very essence of Zionism was that Jews from the world over return to Israel,
ascending to the Land of Israel “as a wall”, together, united, using military force when necessary.__________________________________________
This compels the question:Does Zionism indeed violate G-d’s will?
Do these Three Oaths constitute halakhah (Jewish religious law) in practice?__________________________________________
We begin by noting that it was Rabbi Zeira who cited the Three Oaths,
quoting Rabbi Yossi BeRebbi Chanina.
And both Rabbi Zeira and Rabbi Yossi BeRebbi Chanina eventually made Aliyah!__________________________________________
(1) This passage is clearly aggadah (homiletic), and as a general rule
we do NOT derive practical halakhah from homiletic passages in the Talmud.The Talmud is, after all, full of homilies, aphorisms, and adages,
expositions and commentaries on the Bible, historical anecdotes,
parables, advice, and so forth – which do not constitute practical halakhah.__________________________________________
(2) And even in halakhic discourses in the Talmud, the majority of statements
do not constitute practical halakhah; after all, the Talmud
almost invariably cites several opinions on every halakhic subject,
only one of which can be accepted as practical halakhah.So how can we know halakhah in practice?
How can we decide which Talmudic statements constitute practical halakhah and which don’t?
For this, we have centuries of halakhic literature:
__________________________________________
(3) The earliest halakhic codifier was Rabbi Yitzchak Alfassi (1013-1103 [CE]),
known by his acronym the Rif. (The name Alfassi means Fezite, from Fez in Morocco.)The Rif compiled the Sefer ha-Halakhot (The Book of Halakhot),
the first-ever compendium of Jewish law.The Rif completely ignores the Three Oaths:
so far as he is concerned, they DO NOT constitute practical halakhah.__________________________________________
(4) A century later came Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon (1135-1204 [CE]),
known by his acronym Rambam (in the secular world usually called Maimonides).The Rambam wrote the Mishneh Torah, a comprehensive compendium
of halakhah in 14 volumes, more scientifically-organised than
the Sefer ha-Halakhot. (The Sefer ha-Halakhot generally follows
the order in the Talmud, the Mishneh Torah is organised subject-by subject).The Mishneh Torah contains every halakhah, including those which
did not apply in the Rambam’s times and are still do not apply,
such as laws of how to construct the Holy Temple and laws of sacrifices.The Mishneh Torah begins with the halakhic obligation to know
that G-d exists (interesting point, incidentally – according to the Rambam
we must know that G-d exists, not just believe that He exists),
and concludes with Laws of Kings.In this final section, Laws of Kings and their Wars (to give its full title),
the Rambam lays forth all the laws of how a Jewish state is to be run,
who can be king of a Jewish state, what the limits of the king’s authority are,
how the Jewish State is to be established, and so forth.Nowhere at all does the Rambam limit a Jewish State to the times of the messiah,
or cite the Three Oaths as practical halakhah.__________________________________________
(5) Just about contemporaneous with the Ramban
was Rabbi Moshe ben Nachman (1194-1270 [CE]),
known by his acronym Ramban (in the secular world usually called Nachmanides).The Ramban wrote glosses on the Mishneh Torah, including an entire section
of halakhot which, he claimed, the Rambam had forgotten or omitted.Not only does the Ramban NOT feature the Three Oaths as practical halakhah
– he regards conquering the Land of Israel as a positive Commandment for all generations:“You will inherit the Land [of Israel] and will dwell in it,
because to you I have given the Land to inherit”
says the Torah (Numbers [Bamidbar] 33:53), on which the Ramban comments:“In my opinion this is a positive Commandment:
He hereby commanded them to dwell in the Land and to inherit it,
because He gave it to them and they are not to spurn Hashem’s Heritage…
and our Rabbis have expounded greatly upon the Mitzvah
of dwelling in the Land of Israel [Ketuvot 110B], that it is forbidden to leave it…”.Not only does the Ramban NOT bring the Three Oaths as practical halakhah;
not only does he regard conquering the Land of Israel to be a positive Commandment
– he even references the self-same Talmudic passage in which the Three Oaths appear,
solely in order to mention the halakhic obligation to live in Israel and to inherit the Land.And to clarify this, the Ramban identifies two separate mitzvot: dwelling in the Land
(which Mitzvah devolves upon the individual), and inheriting the Land,
which means conquering it and ruling it (which Mitzvah devolves upon the collective).
The individual Jew who lives in Israel has fulfilled the first mitzvah but not the second.
And according to the Ramban, the mitzvah of inheriting the Land,
conquering it and ruling it, applies throughout the generations,
in direct contravention of the Three Oaths.So clearly, the Ramban, like his predecessors,
does NOT hold that the Three Oaths constitute practical halakhah.__________________________________________
(6) A generation after the Ramban came Rabbi Asher ben Yechiel (1240-1327 [CE]),
known by his acronym the Rosh (short for Rabbeinu Asher, “our Rabbi, Asher”).The Rosh’s commentary appears at the back of most editions of the Talmud;
it takes the form of a précis of halakhic discourses:typically, the Rosh condenses a discussion which might extend over a few pages
down to one paragraph, concluding with a halakhic decision –
“and the halakhah in practice is such-and-such”.The Rosh, like all his predecessors, ignores the Three Oaths.
For him, too, they appear NOT to constitute practical halakhah.__________________________________________
(7) The next great Talmudic commentator and halakhic authority was
Rabbi Nissim of Gerona (1320-1376 [CE]), known by his acronym the Ran
(short for Rabbeinu Nissim, “our Rabbi, Nissim”),
one of the last of the great Spanish Talmudic scholars.The Ran wrote a commentary on the Rif’s Sefer ha-halakhot,
and another commentary on the Talmud, both of which are accepted
as authoritative halakhic works. His commentary on the Talmud appears
in almost all printed editions of the Talmud, at the bottom of the page beneath the text;
its purpose is to teach practical halakhah,
generally ignoring purely theoretical or homiletic concepts.The Ran, like all his predecessors, ignores the Three Oaths.
For him, too, they DO NOT appear to constitute practical halakhah.__________________________________________
(8) And now we come to one of the most important and influential
halakhic works of all, the Shulchan Aruch, written by Rabbi Yosef Karo
(1488-1575 [CE]). Rabbi Yosef Karo, often known simply as “ha-Mechabber”
(“the Author”), compiled the Shulchan Aruch in Tzfat (Safed), Israel.The Shulchan Aruch, meaning the “Prepared Table”, because it is like a table
on which has been prepared and is ready for all who want, is the last of
the great halakhic works, and today, half a millennium on,
it is still the most frequently-cited halakhic work.The Shulchan Aruch is an abridgement of Rabbi Yosef Karo’s earlier work,
the Beit Yosef (“House of Joseph”). Rabbi Karo had achieved universal renown
for his unrivaled learning, hence his work achieved instant acceptance throughout the Torah world.Unlike the Mishneh Torah, the Shulchan Aruch deals only with those halakhot
which are applicable in our days. Rabbi Karo was writing in Israel
(at the time under Turkish Ottoman occupation) –
and he, too, like all his predecessors, ignores the Three Oaths.For him, too, they DO NOT appear to constitute practical halakhah.
__________________________________________
(9) Rabbi Yosef Karo, a product of Spain, was of course Sefaradi,
and his halakhic rulings reflected the Sefaradi tradition.And so, Rabbi Karo’s Polish contemporary, Rabbi Moshe Isserles
(1525-1572 [CE]) wrote glosses on the Shulchan Aruch,
called the Mappa (the “Tablecloth”, because it “covers” the “Prepared Table”)
whenever the Ashkenazi tradition diverged from the Sefaradi tradition.Rabbi Moshe Isserles, known by his acronym the Rama,
had apparently originally intended to write an independent halakhic work;
however, he quickly realised that would be irrelevant,
since the differences would be minuscule.
The Rama’s glosses are, therefore, inserted into the text of the Shulchan Aruch;
in almost all editions, they are set off by being printed in Rashi script,
as opposed to the square letters of the Shulchan Aruch itself.Rabbi Moshe Isserles, too, ignores the Three Oaths.
__________________________________________
(10) Then in 1864 [CE], Rabbi Shlomo Ganzfried published his halakhic work
the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch (the Abbreviated Shulchan Aruch) in Hungary.Intended for the layman, the Kitzur (as it is popularly known) contains only
such halakhot as a Jew needs in his day-to-day life,
leaving out such halakhot as need specialist knowledge.
(It explains, for example, how to affix a Mezuzah to the door-post,
but not how to write the Mezuzah: writing is the province of a trained Scribe.)Now it is significant that Rabbi Ganzfried DID NOT MENTION the Three Oaths
in his halakhic work, because Zionism was already a significant force among
the Jews of Hungary (and indeed throughout Europe) by the 1860’s,
so had he believed that the Three Oaths constitute practical halakhah,
he would surely have included them.__________________________________________
(11) And a generation later, Rabbi Yisrael Meir Kagan,
popularly known as the Chafetz Chaim, published the Mishnah Berurah,
a commentary and expansion to the first section of the Shulchan Aruch,
in 1904 [CE]; the Chafetz Chaim addended a detailed series of glosses
to the Mishnah Berurah, the Be’ur halakhah, to clarify and expand upon his original work.Now it is even more significant that the Chafetz Chaim nowhere mentions
The Three Oaths. Not just because by 1904 [CE] Zionism was a major force among Jewry,
not just because Jews were already streaming into the Land of Israel,
not just because the Zionist movement was already lobbying governments
the world over from Turkey to Britain to Germany to Austria-Hungary to the USA to France,
but because the Chafetz Chaim was decidedly anti-Zionist.In the great debates which threatened to split Jewry,
the two greatest protagonists were Rabbi Avraham Yitzchak ha-Cohen Kook
(in favor of Zionism), and the Chafetz Chaim (against Zionism).When even the great halakhic codifier the Chafetz Chaim,
with his uncompromisingly anti-Zionist ideology,
does not see fit to include the Three Oaths in a halakhic work,
it becomes clear that they are not intended as practical halakhah:
even the great proponent of anti-Zionism did not claim
that the Three Oaths are halakhically binding!__________________________________________
(12) Let us now put the Three Oaths into context.In a long discussion, stretching over two pages, the Talmud cites
any number of praises of the Land of Israel. A few at random:“A man may compel all the members of his household
to go up to the Land of Israel with him, but he may not compel
anyone to leave the Land of Israel with him” (Ketuvot 110B).“The Rabbis taught: A Jew must always live in the Land of Israel,
even in a city whose majority are idolaters, and lot live outside
of the Land of Israel, even in a city whose majority are Jews;
because everyone who lives in the Land of Israel is like one who has a G-d,
and everyone who lives outside of the Land of Israel is like one who has no G-d” (Ketuvot 110B).“Everyone who lives outside the Land of Israel is as though he worships idols” (Ketuvot 110B).
“Said Rabbi Elazar: Everyone who dwells in the Land of Israel lives without sin…
The dead outside of the Land of Israel will not be resurrected, as it says
‘I will give glory in the Land of Life’ (Ezekiel 26:20) – in the Land wherein
My desire is the dead will live again, in lands where My desire is absent,
the dead will not live again” (Ketuvot 111A).In the midst of all these appear The Three Oaths.
Now the question arises: How can we decide which Talmudic statements
constitute practical halakhah and which are purely homiletic?__________________________________________
(13) The simple answer lies in the page-layout of the Talmud.The Talmud has been called the first-ever hypertext due to its
comprehensive cross-referencing. At the top outer margin
of every page of the Talmud appears Ein Mishpat – Ner Mitzvah,
which cross-references every Talmudic source
which appears in the major halakhic works.And the sole halakhic cross-references in the entire passage
in which the Three Oaths are to the Mishneh Torah, Laws of Kings 5:9, 11, and 12:“It is always forbidden to leave the Land of Israel, except to study Torah,
to marry a woman, or to save [himself or a fellow-Jew] from heathens,
and then to return to Israel; or else for business.
But it is forbidden [for a Jew] to live permanently outside of Israel,
unless there is severe famine there…
Everyone who dwells in the Land of Israel – his sins are forgiven…
even if he walked just four cubits there he merits the World to Come…
A Jew must always live in the Land of Israel, even in a city whose majority are idolaters,
and not live outside of Israel, even in a city whose majority are Jews,
because anyone who leaves Israel is akin to one who worships idols…”.So the sole halakhic cross-references, far from accepting
The Three Oaths as practical halakhah, enjoin every Jew to live in Israel.__________________________________________
(14) And now, having analyzed the halakhah,
we now turn to the practical application in history.The fact is that when the Seleucid Empire occupied Israel,
the Maccabees mounted a military insurrection, using military force
to liberate the Land of Israel, rebelling against
the nations of the world in the most violent way possible.And they won, and the Sages of the generation instituted an
annual Festival called Channukah to celebrate their military victory.__________________________________________
(15) Three hundred years later, when the Roman Empire occupied Israel,
Shimon Bar-Kochba mounted a military insurrection,
using military force to liberate the Land of Israel,
rebelling against the nations of the world in the most violent way possible.And the spiritual leader of the Bar-Kochba Revolt was Rabbi Akiva,
one of the greatest Rabbis of all time.
As an indication of how great a master he was, there is a principle
in the Talmud that in any halakhic debate between Rabbi Akiva
and any other rabbi, the halakhah in practice invariably follows Rabbi Akiva’s opinion.
No other single master in the entire Talmud can over-rule Rabbi Akiva.Clearly, Rabbi Akiva, the greatest master of them all,
did not believe that The Three Oaths constituted halakhah in practice.__________________________________________
(16) I conclude with one of our greatest philosophers ever,
Rabbi Yehudah Ha-Levi, a product of the Golden Age of Muslim Spain.
For 20 years, from 1120 [CE] to 1140 [CE], he worked on his magnum opus, The Kuzari.The Kuzari is a magnificent and eminently readable work of Jewish philosophy,
presented in the form of a dialogue between the King of the Khazars
and an unnamed rabbi. The King of the Khazars was a genuine historical figure
of whom little is known, beyond his name, Bulan, and the legend that
he and many of the Khazar aristocracy converted to Judaism around the year 700 [CE].In the Kuzari, Rabbi Yehudah Ha-Levi presents his entire philosophy of Judaism,
using the King of the Khazars as a foil. This purported debate is a far more dramatic
and vivid and dynamic work than any academic work of philosophy
(even more than the Rambam’s Guide for the Perplexed).In the second essay, Rabbi Yehudah Ha-Levi has the rabbi recount
the praises of the Land of Israel and tell of our obligation to live therein.
And then the words he puts in the Kings mouth are quite harsh:“In this case, you fail in your duty to the Torah!
You have not attempted to make your lives in the Land of Israel, yet you pray,
‘Have mercy on Zion, because it is the House of our Life’…
I see that all your bowing and prostrating towards the Land of Israel
is mere sycophancy and habit which you do without thinking…” (Kuzari 2:23).Of all the King’s arguments throughout the Kuzari,
this is the sole one to which the Rabbi has no response:“You have shamed me, King of Khazaria.
And this is the sin which prevented us from the perfection which
G-d had ordained for us in the Second Holy Temple…
G-d was ready to dwell therein as he had in the First Temple,
if only all [the Jews] would have agreed to return will willing soul –
but only a few returned…
Indeed our prayers ‘Bow to His Holy Mountain’ (Psalms 99:9)…
and ‘Blessed are You, Who returns His Divine Presence to Zion’
as merely like the twittering of starlings…
It is indeed as you said, O King of Khazaria” (Kuzari 2:25).If Rabbi Yehudah Ha-Levi had believed that the Three Oaths
constitute halakhah in practice, then he would have put entirely
different words into the Rabbi’s mouth.
He could so easily have justified abandoning the Land of Israel
by invoking the Three Oaths –
“We would love to return to Israel, but G-d has forbidden us to”.But Rabbi Yehudah Ha-Levi did not offer this answer.
Instead, he confessed that our failure to return to our Land is precisely that – a failure.__________________________________________
Because The Three Oaths are NOT, and NEVER were, halakhah in practice.***** END OF ARTICLE *****
__________________________________________
Three Oaths essay from Rabbi Avraham Rivlin of Kerem B’Yavneh
November 9, 2025 12:37 pm at 12:37 pm #2469351HaKatanParticipantSQUARE_ROOT:
More Zionist spam.
The most pathetic part of this is that the original author could have opened a VaYoel Moshe and would have seen that his “questions” are not questions.First of all, the objections to Zionism are far greater than “only” the Oaths, deadly serious as those oaths were throughout history.
Zionism is diametrically opposed to Judaism and is its greatest enemy by far. Therefore, of course it violates G-d’s will. Zionism is all about turning Jews and Judaism into Nationalists Zionists and Zionism. Obviously, that is a severe violation of G-d’s will.As the Brisker Rav noted, the “State” the Zionists managed to achieve was the greatest triumph of the Satan since the golden calf idol. Both that idol and this idol are obviously against G-d’s will.
We certainly do derive practical halacha from aggadita unless that would go against halachos elsewhere. And even if we didn’t, we still understand from there G-d’s will. That’s in general.
But, here, specifically, we have numerous examples throughout history of mass murder that occurred, which the great Torah sages of the time (or later) indicated were due to violating the oaths, including Shevet Ephraim leaving Egypt early and the Ben Koziva rebellion. The Rambam himself, quite the “halachist” invokes the oaths in Iggeres Teiman. So, the oaths clearly are halachically in force, as that was the reason given for G-d having punished those Jews at those times and a warning to Jews at other times to not rebel due to those and not to arise en masse to E”Y due to those oaths.
Regarding the oaths not appearing in various halachic works, that is an academic question, not a serious question, but that would likely be because they aren’t applicable to day-to-day life like, say praying and kashrus. This involves things like mass “aliyah” and fighting wars against nations. These are not your typical day-to-day Jewish issues, at least not until the Zionists came and grossly violated the entire Torah (not “just” the Oaths) as per the Brisker Rav.
November 9, 2025 12:37 pm at 12:37 pm #2469370RightJewParticipantSQUARE_ROOT:
You make great points above.
One other point that must be made – even IF the Three Oaths are halacha, they were never violated by the creation of the State of Israel.
The UN General Assembly voted by a majority vote in 1947 to allow a Jewish state in part of Eretz Yisrael.
The Jewish Leadership accepted the UN Plan.
President Trump placed the US Embassy in Jerusalem.
Thus it seems that the only Jews who are now violating the “Three Oaths” are Satmar and N.K.
November 9, 2025 12:37 pm at 12:37 pm #2469381RightJewParticipantSQUARE_ROOT:
You make great points above.
One other point that must be made – even IF the Three Oaths are halacha, they were never violated by the creation of the State of Israel.
The UN General Assembly voted by a majority vote in 1947 to allow a Jewish state in part of Eretz Yisrael.
The Jewish Leadership accepted the UN Plan.
President Trump placed the US Embassy in Jerusalem.
Thus it seems that the only Jews who are now violating the “Three Oaths” are Satmar and N.K. who refuse to recognize the State of Israel.
November 9, 2025 12:38 pm at 12:38 pm #2469391yankel berelParticipantmost of square’s comments above have merit …
but the heading does not
there are many non zionists who do not hold the oaths as halachically applicable
and nevertheless are not zionists
for many good and valid reasons
.
.November 9, 2025 12:38 pm at 12:38 pm #2469403Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantthis looks like a good analysis, focusing not on some individual writings, but on a big picture whether the issue is discussed in major halachik sources.
The only caveat is that many issues looked of remote interest during middle ages and up to modern times. Some might still write about halochos of final redemption for which there was always Jewish earning, but the process how we will get there was not of urgent need to codify.
November 9, 2025 12:38 pm at 12:38 pm #2469422wojwojParticipantThe sad fact remains that those that live outside of the land and those who preach against it will not be redeemed in the geula. All these anti-Zionists or haters of others Jews – however you want to view it – have separated themselves from the Jewish people. Highly unlikely they will see the geula.
November 9, 2025 12:38 pm at 12:38 pm #2469573SQUARE_ROOTParticipantSome major Rabbis held that the Three Oaths are NOT in force anymore,
including: Rabbi Chaim Vital, Rabbi Meir Simcha of Dvinsk, and Rabbi Shlomo Kluger.Even if they were in force, in 1948 CE, there were many Rabbis who held
that they were not violated, because the League of Nations and
the United Nations Organization both voted to establish a Jewish state,
in 1920 CE and 1948 CE, so the State of Israel was NOT established by force.Also, the oath not to go to Eretz Yisrael in large numbers requires
more than half the Jews in the world —- this is the opinion of
the Shittah Mekubetzes, the Maharal, and Rabbi Yonasan Eybshitz.The Torah Temimah held that it only refers to when people
are forced to move to Eretz Yisrael, not when they do so voluntarily.So do not falsely claim that ALL Rabbis held that they are in effect,
or that Israel violated them.PS: Rabbi Chaim Vital says clearly in Shaar Hakdamos that
The Three Oaths only applied for 1,000 years.November 9, 2025 12:38 pm at 12:38 pm #2469574SRParticipantPutting aside the Halachik questions, the fact is that the Three Oaths have been satisfied.
Emigration to Eretz Yisroel was never like a “wall.” It was slow. This was the first Oath. The second Oath has been satisfied because, ironically, Israel was created by a vote of the United Nations, showing the consent of the nations. Finally, as far as the third Oath is concerned, the Holocaust was certainly a case of the ultimate oppression.
November 9, 2025 12:38 pm at 12:38 pm #2469575SQUARE_ROOTParticipantRabbi Meir Simchah of Dvinsk, the Meshech Chochmah,
said that The Three Oaths no longer apply because
the nations gave us permission to return to Eretz Yisrael
in The San Remo Conference of 25 April 1920 of The Common Era.November 9, 2025 12:38 pm at 12:38 pm #2469577RightJewParticipantSQUARE_ROOT:
You make great points above.
One other point that must be made – even IF the Three Oaths are halacha, they were never violated by the creation of the State of Israel.
Satmar/N.K. utilizes historical revisionism to claim that the Three Oaths were violated.
The UN General Assembly voted by a majority vote in 1947 to allow a Jewish state in part of Eretz Yisrael.
The Jewish Leadership accepted the UN Plan.
President Trump placed the US Embassy in Jerusalem.
Thus it seems that the only Jews who are now violating the “Three Oaths” are Satmar and N.K. who refuse to recognize the State of Israel.
November 9, 2025 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #2469723HaKatanParticipantSQUARE_ROOT:
Your reply is also Zionist spam.
No major rabbis held that the oaths were no longer in force (though you admit that they were in force before that, contrary to your original post spam).
Cite those original words. There is nothing there.Regarding Rav Meir Simcha, he likely never actually stated that, as that appeared only in a “Religious Zionist” publication. But even if he did actually state that, that would mean only that peaceful and non-political ascent at that time would not violate the very much in force oath of rebelling against the nations. It would not at all permit a political state nor would it permit ascent en masse.
It’s also imply idiotic to state:
“..the United Nations Organization both voted to establish a Jewish state, in 1920 CE and 1948 CE, so the State of Israel was NOT established by force.”
The simple facts are that the Zionist “State” sure was established by force – lots of force, in fact. The Zionists fought a war of “independence” in 1948, and both fought and terrorized both the British and the Arabs before that. That was not what the League of Nations had stated should happen, of course, but it’s anyways irrelevant because the use of force is forbidden (even according to Rabbi AY Kook) regardless of what the LON/UN/whomever stated.Stop spamming these boards.
November 9, 2025 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #2469725HaKatanParticipant“RightJew”
His points are not “great”; they are nonsense, as mentioned above.And yours is too. Of course, the creation of the “State” severely violated the oaths as mentioned above. That same UN told the Zionists that they were going to start a new mandate in 1948 but the Zionists said no and declared “independence” instead. As well, to actually achieve that “State”, the Zionists needed to fight an actual war (and war and terror before 1948), as mentioned, and as every Zionist knows very well.
November 9, 2025 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #2469736ZSKParticipantWhy are we starting yet another thread about this subject?
To everyone here: You’re not going to be able to talk any sense into HaKatan and his ilk.
It’s best we just let these threads die.
November 9, 2025 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #2469749commonsaychelParticipantSquare Root said:
Just because someone is married, that does not prove that he or she is “an expert”.
There are many people with below-average personalities who got married because they are tall or rich or beautiful; and there are many people with above-average personalities who are not married because they are short or poor or ugly.
There are many people with below-average intelligence who got married because they are tall or rich or beautiful; and there are many people with above-average intelligence who are not married because they are short or poor or ugly.
Also, there are many people who are married now, but will be divorced in the future.
Are people who are married now, but will be divorced in the future “expert”, because they are married now?You seem to not understand that if our personal circumstances were just a little different, many people who are married now would not be married, and many people who are not married now would be married now.
__________________________________________
MY RESPONSE:Chananya Weissman moved to Israel and he is still not married
November 9, 2025 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #2469768pure yiddishkeitParticipant@RightJew, @squareroot, @wojwoj, and any other misinformed or worse commentor, to you I say GOOD MORNING!!
this recycled twisted zionist spam FOLDER OF MADE UP NONSENSE is known to anyone who’s ever given more than 5 mins of their life to the subject of zionism.
bit by bit:1) The Rav Chaim Vital you quote is clearly and simply answered by the Satmar Rav Ztzk”l in Vayoel Moshe in the mid kuf simanim from what I remember, in which he clearly proves that Rav Chaim Vital actually says the exact opposite, quoting him word by word verbatim, (unlike this mythical idea’s source, which is a early generation zionist mizrachi or worse rabbi who was completely ignored, until some yeshiva bachur “looking for the truth” found his junk and decided it was the truth ch”v).
2) Interesting thing is, in your opening article for this “dialogue” you quote nothing but zionist jargon (that includes old time zionist misinterpretations), sometimes quoting long disproven distortions from people who never dared to state the things these sources unashamedly state.
3) One of the biggest lies, is that the Issur of Aliyah Bechoma was not violated. Anyone who knows the first thing about zionist history will know about the lechi and the like, all of whom engaged in terror no different than Hamas and other terrosrist organisations (they just didn’t have the kind of funding and help that these savages do, but they still murdered jews and non jews alike). And if you tell me that there was no government at the time (when there was there was the Bitish mandate which constitutes as the running government UNTIL etc), well nowhere will you find the idea that this issur is only against a controlling force in the makeup of a government etc. coming en-masse to overtake a land, EVEN IF IT WAS UNINHABITED, is still assur, as the issur is on the jews to do the act not for it top happen to someone. Aliyah Bechoma beens gowing up in large numbers/armed depending on the pshat understod (most hold that both are halacha).
4) The debate regarding the halachiq status of agadtah IN OF ITSELF is both irrelevant and wrong to be “DECIDED” (not discussed rather decided) on this platform, as 1. it is for Rabbanim, Dayanim and Poskim to dictate the halachaq status of a whole contingent of the Torah, and 2. because whe agadtah’s that some like to use to twist to fit their zionist idealogies, suddenly they remember agadta’s halachiq status…. hhhmmm….
5) All the above besides the fact that up until the 18-hundreds, it was wholly and unequivocally accepted as halacha, throughout history up until the zionist bandits turned up. Why then was it not discussed as much as other topics in halacha? because of the above, because it was so simple and basic in everyones mind that it was assur and that’s it, is the reason why it wasn’t discussed that much, proof? Because where it was discussed it is very clear that it is assur including the ones that are “quoted” by zionists in their misinterpritations, like the Rav Chaim Vital we mentioned above, which people quote as to say that Rav Chaim Vital “says” that the oaths are only kayam for 1000 years (ch”v), which is complete utter rubbish, open the Rav Chaim Vital you are quoting and read what he says before you quote zionist newspaper junk.
6) Besides all of this, even if you want to say that the sky’s pink and not blue, one thing you can’t ignore is that the punishment that the gemara states for being over on the oaths has unfortunately occurred, more than once, even I’d say…
7) The lies go on and on, and simply because there is no limit to sheker because it is a thing which can be made up again and again I don’t answer everything here, but if anyone has got sincere questions or queries I’d be more than happy to help[, but let’s just remember that this isn’t a kollel, just the coffee room……
November 10, 2025 2:07 am at 2:07 am #2469834HaKatanParticipantZSK:
You mean not able to convince you and them to drop the Zionist idol?November 10, 2025 2:07 am at 2:07 am #2469841HaKatanParticipantYou Zionists are pathetic. You spam the board with nonsense, people respond point-by-point to your nonsense, and you just ignore it and echo each other instead of at least attempting to answer those points. Pathetic idolaters.
MODS: Please do not approve future spam from SQUARE_ROOT. There are plenty of “Religious Zionist” sites at which he could post this, and he anyways doesn’t respond to responses to his spam posts, which means it’s not a conversation and therefore doesn’t belong on these boards.
November 10, 2025 2:07 am at 2:07 am #2469860yankel berelParticipant@ pure yiddishkeit
you omit the holy avnei nezer who was holek on the holy satmar rav
in other words it is a mahloket rabanim whether the 3 oaths are at all halachically applicable ….
..
November 10, 2025 2:08 am at 2:08 am #2469885SQUARE_ROOTParticipant“The Chazon Ish encouraged people from overseas
to settle in Eretz Yisrael as it is a positive commandment,
and he felt that Yiddishkeit was more prevalent
and easier to practice there than in the diaspora.”SOURCE: Rav Chaim: The Life and Legacy of the
Sar HaTorah Rav Shmaryahu Yosef Chaim Kanievsky
(chapter 5, page 56), by Naftali Weinberger,
Mesorah Publications, February 2023,
ISBN-10: 1422632873 * ISBN-13: 978-14226328713 PERSONAL COMMENTS:
[1] The Chazon Ish ZTL ZYA encouraged Jews
to make aliyah, even though Israel was ruled
by a Secular Zionist government, at that time![2] The Chazon Ish ZTL ZYA felt that Yiddishkeit
“was more prevalent” in Eretz Yisrael, in his times,
even though Israel was ruled by a Secular Zionists, at that time![3] The Chazon Ish ZTL ZYA felt that it was
“easier to practice” Yiddishkeit in Eretz Yisrael,
even though Israel was ruled by a Secular Zionists, at that time!November 10, 2025 2:08 am at 2:08 am #2469886SQUARE_ROOTParticipantQUESTION:
What did Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky ZTL ZYA say about the modern State of Israel?
__________________________________________
ANSWER:Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky ZTL ZYA said this about the modern State of Israel:
The State of Israel was one example he gave of
the need to replace kana’us with a more balanced view.On the one hand, he fully endorsed a letter issued
by Rabbi Elazar Schach on the eve of Agudath Israel
entering the governing coalition in Israel in 1977 [CE],
which called upon the religious community
not to be carried away by enthusiasm for a state
founded as a secular state, whose laws are secular laws,
and whose leadership is secular.He had himself frequently warned those leaving for Israel,
“Don’t lose your head at the sight of a Jewish army.”At the same time, he [Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky]
disagreed with the view of the Satmar Rebbe
that the miraculous Israeli victory in 1967 [CE]
was the work of the sitra achra (satanic forces):[Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky said:]
“I deny that miracles can emanate from a destructive satanical force.
Miracles of such magnitude can only be performed by a force for good.”Reb Yaakov [Kamenetsky] felt that but for
the creation of the State in 1948 [CE] a million Jews
would have become assimilated as a result of
the despair that followed the Holocaust and
attributed the renascence [rebirth] of Soviet Jewry
to the miraculous Israeli military victory in 1967.If only the Israeli government had also recognized
Hashem’s miraculous deliverance in 1967 [CE],
he added, history would have been changed..…
Similarly, he [Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky] concluded, recognition of
Israel’s role in preventing millions of Jews
from losing any connection to the Jewish people
must mitigate our kana’us, even as
our love for our fellow Jews in Eretz Yisrael
must “not blind us to [their] shortcomings.”SOURCE: Reb Yaakov: The Life and Times of HaGaon
Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky by Yonason Rosenblum,
based on the research of Rabbi Noson Kamenetsky (chapter 11, page 209),
Mesorah Publications, publication dates: February 1993 & January 2004,
ISBN: 0-89906-413-2 (hardcover)
ISBN: 0-89906-415-9 (paperback)__________________________________________
On the next page, page 210, Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky said this:“In this land [Eretz Yisrael] … a carpenter is not merely a laborer,
but one fulfilling the mitzvah of building Eretz Yisrael.”SOURCE: Reb Yaakov: The Life and Times of HaGaon
Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky by Yonason Rosenblum,
based on the research of Rabbi Noson Kamenetsky (chapter 11, page 210),
Mesorah Publications, publication dates: February 1993 & January 2004,
ISBN: 0-89906-413-2 (hardcover)
ISBN: 0-89906-415-9 (paperback)__________________________________________
NOTE: Rabbi Aharon Feldman, in The Jewish Observer,
called “Reb Yaakov” a “remarkable book which
genuinely evokes the spirit of Reb Yaakov [Kamenetsky].”__________________________________________
PERSONAL COMMENTS:[1] Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky never said that
the State of Israel should be dismantled.[2] Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky never said that
Religious Zionists were idol-worshippers.[3] Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky (in the quote shown above)
recognized that Zionism helped to PREVENT assimilation.[4] Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky (in the first quote shown above)
recognized that Israel helped to PREVENT “millions of
Jews from losing any connection to the Jewish people.”[5] Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky (in the second quote shown above)
said that a carpenter in Eretz Yisrael is fulfilling the mitzvah
of building Eretz Yisrael — even though Eretz Yisrael
was ruled by Secular Zionists, at that time. WOW!!__________________________________________
PS: If you doubt that my quotes are accurate,
then I invite you to find a copy of the book that I mentioned,
and turn to the chapter number and page numbers that I mentioned.
You will then see with your own eyes that my quotes are 100% accurate.November 10, 2025 2:08 am at 2:08 am #2469887Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantI think the new point in this thread is a list of halachik sources that ignore the issue. The list is very impressive. I wonder what the other side thinks about that rather than 100th discussion whether Ohr Sameach wrote or not a letter.
November 10, 2025 2:08 am at 2:08 am #2469897user176ParticipantBeautiful article, very well put together. Clearly the three oaths may not be invoked to support anti Zionism, unless of course you like to blind yourself to reality and pretend that you hold the keys to Judaism. Anyone who rails against fellow Jews like some do here are contributing to anti semitism and delaying the geula.
November 10, 2025 12:21 pm at 12:21 pm #2469983chaim_baruchParticipantIt does not matter how many halachic sources from Geonim, Rishonim, Achromin one quotes regarding the status of the Three Oaths. This is because those who are against the State of Israel are not concerned with any other aspect of Torah life other opposing Zionism. Their negativity corrupts their thinking, since everything is seen through the lense of of their anti-Zionist worldview. The Tanach is bad since some secular Zionists studied it. The Hebrew language is bad because it’s spoken in the State of Israel. The Land of Israel is bad because it’s controlled by Zionists. With all due respect to the late Satmar Rav zt”l, he created an all encompassing hashkafa based on a small Aggadic passage in Gemara attempting to explain some cryptic verses from Shir HaShirim (a sefer that was almost left out of the Tanach). While the Satmar Rav zt”l, certainly deserves credit for his creativity, his reasoning is far from convincing, when you consider the many Torah giants over the centuries, who advocated the resettling the Land of Israel.
November 10, 2025 12:21 pm at 12:21 pm #2470153SQUARE_ROOTParticipantThe fanatical hate-filled anti-Zionists claim to follow the Gedolim,
but they repeatedly chose to IGNORE accurate quotes from:Ranban, Kuzari, Avnei Nezer,
Rabbi Moshe Sherer,
Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz,
Rabbi Avraham Yitzchok HaKohen Kook,
Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky, and others.Fanatical hate-filled anti-Zionists are not logical and not sincere.
I suspect that they receive payments from
Hamas or Hezbollah or the Ayatollahs of Iran.
They certainly speak like allies of Hamas and Hezbollah!They endanger millions of Jewish lives,
by repeatedly advocating for the suicidal dismantlement
of the only Jewish State and the only Jewish Army.By repeatedly advocating for policies that
endanger millions of Jewish lives and possessions,
they become a rodaif and a mosair, millions of times.Their punishments in Gehinom will be eternal.
November 10, 2025 12:21 pm at 12:21 pm #2470154SQUARE_ROOTParticipantAvnei Nezer (the Gadol HaPoskim ZTL ZYA) clearly disagrees with Sefer VaYoel Moshe:
Avnei Nezer, chelek Yoreh Deah, siman taf nun dalet from sif katan mem dalet
and onwards [pages 287 to 289]. Now for sif katan nun in more detail:‘ … and now it is good and not questionable why Rambam
[in his halacha sefer Mishneh Torah] and all poskim DID NOT bring
The Three Oaths LaHalacha, because those oaths are not LaHalacha,
because the person himself, his body, was not commanded to keep the oaths…That is why the poskim DID NOT bring the oaths LaHalacha.
That is why NONE of the widely-accepted halacha sefarim mention The Three Oaths.It is stupid to claim that The Three Oaths are “undisputed halacha”.
__________________________________________
Rabbi Elchonon Wasserman [ZTL ZYA HYD] made it
perfectly clear that his sharp criticisms were intended
only for the original Zionists, not their descendants.November 10, 2025 12:22 pm at 12:22 pm #2470157HaKatanParticipantyankel berel:
No, the Avnei Nezer did not dispute it.The oaths are all in force, as they have been throughout history, as can be seen by anyone who cares to open a sefer. The Zionists violate them wantonly just as they violate the rest of the Torah.
November 10, 2025 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #2470199user176ParticipantThe three oaths are not and never were Halacha Lemaase. This fact has been sourced and laid out very clearly above. Anti-zionists pretend they are Halacha because they use them against Zionists, even though Zionists can easily explain how do not violate the oaths.
November 10, 2025 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #2470217dbrimParticipantNeither logic nor lomdus penetrates the hate-addled brains of a small minority of supposedly frum Jews who built a whole ideology around hating on a movement that has been defunct for decades. The facts (as elucidated very well by posters here): Rubum shel Rubum of halachic authorities believe(d) that living in E”Y is a Chiyuv, and that Aliya B’choma for a number of reasons doesn’t apply. In less than a few decades, “Tziyoinim” will be an insignificant minority group compared to the Chareidi demographic in E”Y, that will soon outgrow all others. There are 7 million Jews in E”Y and growing. We need a government to build/maintain roads, collect garbage, deter crime, and even defend Jewish inhabitants from enemies. We hope and pray we are witnessing Shivas Tzion but either way, the option of living in E”Y is a big gift from Hashem to be appreciated and valued, not scorned. If you think it’s chalila a curse, compliments of the so called Zionists, stay in Chutz L’Aretz, you won’t make it here anyway.
November 10, 2025 5:29 pm at 5:29 pm #2470279yankel berelParticipantlol.
katan is arguing about clear verifiable facts
avnei nezer does dispute it and points to the list in this essay
hashmatat haposkim
katan would even say that the sun is not shining in the middle of the day if that would benefit his ideology
.November 11, 2025 9:23 am at 9:23 am #2470367HaKatanParticipantuser176:
The “Religious Zionist” idolaters try very hard, but utterly fail in explaining away the absolute applicability of the oaths.yankel berel:
No, he does not dispute it. In fact, from True Torah Jews Org site (read the whole thing):
“He answers that the Jewish Oaths were imposed on the roots of the Jewish souls in Heaven…At this point, the Avnei Nezer is bothered: …how could there be a punishment for violating them? He answers that “I will permit your flesh as the gazelles and deer of the field” is not to be understood as a direct punishment, but as a cutting off of Hashem’s protection that comes as a result of the sin…Hashem’s providence and supervision is removed from the body, and the body is left as ownerless as the wild animals, which have no soul.”Clearly, it would be devastating to violate the oaths, even according to the Avnei Nezer and it is very dishonest to imply otherwise – as the Zionists idolaters do.
November 11, 2025 9:23 am at 9:23 am #2470396ZSKParticipant@HaKatan – Nice riduculously pathetic attempt at humor.
More like to get you and your two compadres to stop treating a polemic mussar sefer built entirely on an invalid premise like it’s more important than our actual canon – you know, Tanach, Mishna, Talmud, etc., and get with the program.
Or at least to stop trashing other Orthodox Jews who disagree with you on one issue.
Mods: Please remove HaKatan from this board. His constant need to turn every single issue into Zionism – and inserting Zionism everywhere he can – prevents any substantive discussion of other issues and far more interesting subjects.
November 11, 2025 8:47 pm at 8:47 pm #2470711Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantcould someone address the OP claim about lack of attention in halachik sources? This is not a simple matter, there are various patterns for various codes on whether to address things, especially if they are shaiah to the generation when the code is written.
Thank for your attention to this matter.
November 11, 2025 8:47 pm at 8:47 pm #2470788HaKatanParticipant@ZSK:
The oaths are introduced in Talmud Bavli (part of our actual canon, as you put it) and brought liHalacha by poskim throughout the ages (see the Satmar Rav for a long list) and are invoked by even the Rambam himself in Iggeres Teiman.Obviously, no Orthodox Jew should invalidate any gemara and also not mislead other Jews about vital halachos that are very real and applicable to life, as has already been proven throughout history.
November 11, 2025 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #2470820yankel berelParticipantTrue Torah Jews Org site would even say that the sun is not shining in the middle of the day if that would benefit their ideology.
.
.November 12, 2025 12:02 pm at 12:02 pm #2470904SQUARE_ROOTParticipantSince Mr. HaKatan claims to believe in Torah, he should reveal to us
which living posek or Rosh HaYeshivah gave him clear and unambiguous
permission to publicly and repeatedly refer to Religious Zionist Jews as “idolaters”,
which increases hatred between Jews and decreases Jewish unity?Since Mr. HaKatan claims to believe in Torah, he should reveal to us
which living posek or Rosh HaYeshivah gave him clear and unambiguous
permission to publicly and repeatedly refer to Mizrachi Jews as “idol worshippers”,
which increases hatred between Jews and decreases Jewish unity?What is the name and location of the Rabbi
who gave him permission to say those wicked things?When did Rabbi Moshe Feinstein ZTL ZYA ever say that Religious Zionist
Jews or Mizrachi Jews are “idol worshippers”? Probably never.When did Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky ZTL ZYA ever say that Religious Zionist
Jews or Mizrachi Jews are “idol worshippers”? Probably never.When did Rabbi Moshe Sherer ZTL ZYA ever say that Religious Zionist Jews
or Mizrachi Jews are “idol worshippers”? Probably never.When did Rabbi Aharon HaKohen Pam ZTL ZYA ever say that Religious Zionist
Jews or Mizrachi Jews are “idol worshippers”? Probably never.When did Rabbi Yisroel HaLevi Belsky ZTL ZYA ever say that Religious Zionist
Jews or Mizrachi Jews are “idol worshippers”? Probably never.Jewish History teaches us many times that Jews
cannot survive when they hate each other.
Yet Mr. HaKatan never stops increasing hate between Jews
with his never-ending evil false accusations.Just as The Satan never stops making accusations against Jews,
Mr. HaKatan also never stops never stops making accusations against Jews,
because he is a student of The Satan.Mr. HaKatan will never be happy,
until he succeeds in causing a Jewish Civil War
and another Holocaust.November 12, 2025 12:02 pm at 12:02 pm #2470906SQUARE_ROOTParticipantYankel Berel said:
“FYI. Steipler writes clearly, black on white,
in Karyane De’Igreta, volume 1,
that it is assur to say lashon hara about Dati Leumi Yehudim,
even if they [mistakenly] believe that the state is the forerunner of our ge’oula.They are not ‘begeder yatsa miklal amitecha’
and are to be considered our brother in all halachik respects.”November 12, 2025 12:02 pm at 12:02 pm #2470907HaKatanParticipantyankel berel:
This is about the practical applicability of the oaths despite endless and futile Zionist attempts to pretend otherwise, not your personal opinion of any organizations.November 12, 2025 12:02 pm at 12:02 pm #2470911pure yiddishkeitParticipantThe Avnei Nezer, the Ramban (supposing that’s what you meant regarding his piece why the Rambam skipped over mitzvat Yishuv Eretz Yisrael etc and the rest) is discussed in VaYoel Moshe you can open it and see for yourself! As I did say, the Satmar Rav covers everything there.
And however special R’ Moshe Sherer was, if you put him in one breath with the Avnei Nezer right up to R’ Kamenetzky than somethings wrong with ya man, did you by mistake just spell out your gedolim card collection, I mean the random mix of completely different people, from Rishonim, achronim to roshei yeshiva like i thought we were discussing halacha here, not politics or hashkafa, sorry….
But if you want to mix politics into this, let’s just say this, to not open another can of worms, don’t bring r.a.y.k. otherwise I’ll have to bring other quotes from his writings in order to answer why all poskim in kelal yisrael (not youtube or podcast Gedolim or whatever, they don’t count) are NOT gores him. To put him in one line with theFact end of the day is, there is no other work on the topic with the depth clarity and topic coverage like VaYoel Moshe END OF. It might hurt you, especially if your desperate to excuse zionism but that’s the fact. (I’m sure someone’s going to mention yoel kahns pamphlet in which he repeats his “answer” to a personal distortion of one sentence from VaYoel Moshe but hey hoh it’s the same guys who will sit all day ad every day searching Rabbi Google from top to bottom for any possible distortable mekor remotely connected to Eretz Yisrael, but will not open a VaYoel Moshe “because it’s clear” i.e. they follow google da’as torah….).
November 12, 2025 12:02 pm at 12:02 pm #2470912pure yiddishkeitParticipant“True Torah Jews Org site would even say that the sun is not shining in the middle of the day if that would benefit their ideology.”
Sorry:“zionists say that the sun is not shining in the middle of the day to benefit their ideology.”
November 12, 2025 12:02 pm at 12:02 pm #2470913pure yiddishkeitParticipant@SR,
Putting aside the Halachik questions, fact is your wrong.
Emigration to Eretz Yisroel was in every way like a “wall.” You missed the fact that there are two interpretations to the word bechoma, one being en-masse, and one armed, BOTH of which were broken, en-masse because unless you are desperate enough in your “defense” of zionism to walk blindfolded onto a highway, you would know from history the major campaigns that went on, smuggling, they aliyah alef and more infamously bet, and more, besides for being armed, they didn’t fight the arabs with disposable knives and forks sorry mate, however romantic you’d like zionism to be, the fact is they were armed, and that’s how they “won”.
2) Israel was not created by the nations and even IF so, VaYoel Moshe (oh sorry only at google for you) clearly brings the point that even if the nations would push us to do this we would be prohibited, due to the fact that we don’t follow the Torah so long others don’t break it, it is not a snobby i will only if my friends will game, the Torah we keep because that’s what Hashem said to do.
3) The Holocaust was oppression and therefore?? and you know what else it was? The punishment for something that apparently is not assur according to you- the three oaths….
This is besides for the fact that the Holocaust was very largely the zionists fault (not to take away from the nazi’s evil), with all the history there to prove it, Min Hameitzar, Dateline: Istanbul- the life story of Rabbi Dr. Griffels, Perfidy, Nuremberg trial documents, and so much more………It was slow. This was the first Oath. The second Oath has been satisfied because, ironically, Israel was created by a vote of the United Nations, showing the consent of the nations. Finally, as far as the third Oath is concerned, the Holocaust was certainly a case of the ultimate oppression.
November 12, 2025 12:02 pm at 12:02 pm #2470967Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantKatan> and brought liHalacha by poskim throughout the ages (see the Satmar Rav for a long list) and are invoked by even the Rambam himself in Iggeres Teiman.
See the OP for the list of MAJOR codices that allegedly omit this issue. Does the Satmar Rebbe’s list mention this code and the OP simply could not find the right seif? Let’s compare the lists.
For example, you seem to imply that the only place Rambam mentions the oaths is in his letter that he surely did not expect to be an appendix to Mishne Torah. If it is not in his major works – is there a general principle here that explains what is and is not included in Rambam? Same question for other seforim.
November 12, 2025 12:02 pm at 12:02 pm #2470968Avi KParticipantHaKatan, if you read Iyov, you will see that the Satan cannot act without Hashem’s explicit permission (of course, it could be that you believe in two gods). Rav Kook explains that secular Jews had to be the main, but not the only, force behind Zionism because most religious Jews had become too passive. All pols show that most Israelis are traditional and becoming more observant. We are getting there, slowly, in stages (Yerushalmi, Berachot 1:1).
November 12, 2025 12:03 pm at 12:03 pm #2470978ZSKParticipantSmall one:
Again: I have never doubted the existence of the oaths, that’s clear from the Gemara. You are choosing to ignore the fundamental Halachos and principles of what may or may not be used for Halachik rulings in the name of ideology. Those principles and Halachos make it quite easy to “upshlug” the polemic you treat as more important than our sacred books.
The oaths are not Le-Halacha in Risaala Al-Yemeniyya. Anyone who knows Arabic – which you very clearly don’t – can plainly see they are used rhetorically and not as binding Halacha.
I agree, no Orthodox Jew should invalidate any Gemara nor mislead other Jews about Halacha. No Orthodox Jew should be invoking Midrash Aggada as binding Halacha. Orthodox Jews with a proper education know the difference between Midrash Aggada and Midrash Halacha. They know Aggada is not to be interpreted, it is not Le-Halacha, it is to be taken at face value and at most serves an Asmachta for halachos, whereas Midrash Halacha is in fact binding and is treated very differently. Orthodox Jews with that education also know that Halacha is not typically dervied from Nevi’im or Kesuvim, certainly not a Megilla that was nearly left out of our canon together with Koheles. This is obvious and has been so for thousands of years.
@Yankel: כל מילה בסלע. They absolutely would.November 12, 2025 12:03 pm at 12:03 pm #2470990yankel berelParticipant@AAQ
this lack of attention you refer too , has duly been noted by the gaon the avnei nezer zatsal
at the end of his tshuvot on YD where he concludes that the shavuot do not apply lehalacha
cf avnei nezer YD 454: 49-51
satmar rave takes issue with his opinion in vayoel moshe
so this is a machloket between those rabanim
.
.November 12, 2025 12:03 pm at 12:03 pm #2471141user176ParticipantWhile the three oaths have been brought by poskim lehalacha they have as well if not more predominantly been omitted from Halacha. Regardless, there are thousands of halachic disputes, many with severe ramifications. This is not a new phenomenon. When there is a halachic dispute each side respects the others opinion.
November 12, 2025 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #2471278qwerty613ParticipantTo the group
You’re not going to get through to these people. They see Zionism as the root of all evil. They’re likely nice people who keep the Torah so let them be.
November 12, 2025 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #2471282HaKatanParticipantAlways_Ask_Questions, ZSK and others:
There are multiple answers for the omissions, but omission does not at all mean disagreement.
For example, the oaths are not as relevant to most people as, say, washing hands before bread.None of those, however, claim that the oaths are not in force, and poskim and history show that they very much are.
user176:
See above.A dispute is when two sides explicitly argue opposite rulings about a particular law. It is not a “dispute” when, like by the oaths, numerous poskim bring something as halacha and some happen to not mention it. That’s called an academic question as to why the others did not mention it.
Avi K:
Of course, the Satan cannot act without G-d’s permission, but that has nothing to do with this. Rabbi Kook’s philosophy was not accepted as valid Torah by the Torah sages, so no comment. But Chazal tell us that Hashem will bring the geulah Himself, not through basar viDam, regardless.November 12, 2025 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #2471346yankel berelParticipantA dispute is when two sides explicitly argue opposite rulings about a particular law. It is not a “dispute” when, like by the oaths, numerous poskim bring something as halacha and some happen to not mention it. That’s called an academic question as to why the others did not mention it.
[katan]—-
this ‘academic question’ has been asked by one of the major poskim the avnei nezer and USED in his maskana that they are not lehalacha ….
so that definitely is a dispute ….
.
.November 13, 2025 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #2471435Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipanthakatan> omission does not at all mean disagreement.
omission in a major code that summarizes halochos is definitely a factor, as yankel mentions, avnei nezer talks about it. But we are not here to weigh on whose rav is bigger, but how do the arguments actually go.
so, it is multiple codes that seemingly talk about related issues. I don’t think it means “disagreement”. It may be simply a “disregard”. Nobody before Rambam, as far as we know here, put “3 oaths” into a halachik book (Saadiya gaon?). So, he did not have to disagree – which he has no problem doing when needed. He simply did not think that this is halachically binding. Maybe if you find anything mentioned about 3 oaths in related seforim like beis yosef, then we can discuss this further.
So, it is mentioned that Stamar Rebbe took issue with the issue of omission, can someone summarize his argument?
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