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Tiferes Shlomo writes,
“A person should contemplate how,
due to our many sins, the Holy Land is under Arab control.
This breaks a Yid’s heart, and he should
shout out to HaKadosh Baruch Hu.”SOURCE: Tiferes Shlomo מסעי ד”ה א”י כן מטה השני
SOURCE: Torah Wellsprings: Collected Thoughts from
Rabbi Elimelech Biderman Shlita: Devarim T”B [Tisha BeAv], page 41NOTE: Tiferes Shlomo was written by Rabbi Shlomo HaKohen Rabinowitz
of Radomsk, who lived from year 1801 CE to 1866 CE.During his lifetime, Eretz Yisrael was ruled by the Turkish Ottoman Empire,
not by Arabs, as is incorrectly stated in this quote.__________________________________________
PERSONAL COMMENT:Fanatical anti-Zionists claim that the State of Israel
should be dismantled, which would certainly result
in Arabs controlling ALL of Eretz Yisrael [G*D forbid].However, Tiferes Shlomo writes that the Holy Land
being under Arab control “breaks a Yid’s heart”.If the Tiferes Shlomo were with us today, he would
NOT APPROVE of any plan that
results in the Holy Land being under Arab control
— for example: dismantling the State of Israel.__________________________________________
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/users/square_root/topicsEretz Yisroel being controlled by Atheists would break his heart twice as much!
SQUARE_ROOT:
Zionism has caused you to miss the entire point of his message.
What “breaks a Yid’s heart”, according to the Tiferes Shlomo and all believing Jews, is that we are still in galus, that Hashem has not sent Mashiach to bring us all to E”Y with His king in control. The Turks (or Zionists, for that matter) being in control there is just a symptom of that problem, that Mashiach hasn’t come yet.Regarding you nonsensical accusations in your personal comment, I do not recall ever reading on these forums that anyone suggested that the Arabs should take over there. If you check my other posts, however, for my own humble opinion, you’ll see that I wrote that it would likely be Eisav in control, not Yishmael. But, regardless, the idol of Zionism and its “National” bodies can and will end when Hashem sees fit to finally end that nightmare of Zionism.
Perfect.
He writes “he should
shout out to HaKadosh Baruch Hu”.He does NOT write that he should wage a war against the Arabs to take the land.
He writes to daven. Not to fight. He writes ask Hashem to intervene. He does not write that man should take the matter into his own physical hands.
Thank you for sharing this important point.
@hakatan
I would suggest the non-jewish population that leaves there could and perhaps should rule the area.
before the zionists, the arabs were well regarded by jews as good, respectable caretakers of the land in our gulis.Lol.
Katan suggests that a non defined ‘esav’ will take care of the land , or
much more important,– the many millions of innocent women, men and children therein , while
somejew prefers the local arabs who are supposedly ‘well regarded as good, respectable caretakers of the land’ …
I am not sure whether to laugh or to cry , when reading such clear delusional propositions.
Anyone with even only rudimentary knowledge of current events and recent history
understands the massive bloody repercussions [H yishmerenu] from such irresponsible approaches
there is no ‘havtuche’ anywhere in the torah that when hefker decisions are taken in regard to pikuach nefesh
that nothing would happen to the endangered people.
this is a clear halacha she’ela .
not a hashkafa she’ela
and there is a clear halacha response , in sh’a YD 157
that pikuch nefesh is docheh any issur [besides the cardinal three] including the sfek sfek sfek sfek sfeika of the oaths’ issur
which clearly is the ONLY driver of those totally delusional propositions of somejew and katan .
.
clearer than midday sun , that , when somejew and katan would be free from
their imprisonment in the confines of the mental jail of the mistaken elevation of the oaths as one of the ikarei emuna,
they , in their wildest dreams would not even think of advocating for such dangerous ideas.
.
yankel> non defined ‘esav’ will take care of the land , o
nothing to be lolling about. This was a pretty reasonable position to take in 1900 – before WW1 and even in 1920s. At the time, various shades of communism were the biggest danger against the legit western governments, and some versions of zionism were a part of that in addition to being anti-religious. Arab countries were least affected by that. So, no wonder, so many people were involved in battles against those movements.
It is now, from the knowledge of WW2 events and history after, we see that the proposed path would not be feasible. Katan’s only fault is that he reads thoughts of 100 years ago without considering the events we know now. But, you see, as we asked them for what solution they are thinking about, they at least exposed what their plan was, and we can now judge the feasibility of those plans or lack thereof.
yankel berel:
The only delusion I see in this discussion is Zionism.
The Satmar Rav wrote decades ago that if the Zionists actually cared about Jewish lives then they would go to the nations to work out a way to peacefully end their nightmare idol “State”.
It is delusional to claim as you do that the only possibility is the Zionist cataclysmic disaster. In every normal country in the world (obviously unlike the Zionists paradise), people choose to live in whichever country they expect to be treated well. It is, again, delusional to claim that the Zionist idol “State” is an exception to that rule, and that you think you can just invent that there is no way that any part of “eisav” could rule it peacefully and successfully to the benefit of the Jews (and, liHavdil, others) there.More importantly, it is obviously not a sfek-sfek-sfek…sfeika if the Zionists are violating the oaths0 That’s silly. The Zionists are, of course, flagrantly violating them as they always have, according to all opinions.
Even more importantly, no, it is not only because of the oaths that Hashem will stop the Zionist disaster at some point. Exactly because of your concern, of pikuach nefesh – that is perhaps the main reason why Hashem will end the Zionist disaster. The Zionists, as you noted, have inflamed the world, not just the entire Middle East as in the past, with their frontal attack on G-d in changing Judaism to Zionism and creating a “State” against His will and also against the will of the Jews there and, on top of that, promulgating and propagandizing their Big Lie that their “State” is Jewish and that they represent Jews, both of which are offensively and absurdly false.
It is clear that tif’eret shlomo ‘s writing quoted by square root , has no connection whatsoever to
the present situation and
its extremely weighty pikuch nefesh conundrums, to be decided by the wisest of our sages.
..
@hakatan
I always appreciate your beautiful writing and the clarity your comment provide.“The only delusion I see in this discussion is Z … if the Z actually cared about Jewish lives …. [katan]
—
that’s exactly your problem . you cannot see anything beyond the rish’ut of the z .that blinds you to all reality and warps your mind to consider the present world with a century old perspective,
time to wake up, mr katan, we are now in 2025 … and have to respond to the reality in 2025 ….
..
it is obviously not a sfek-sfek-sfek…sfeika if the Zionists are violating the oaths. That’s silly. [katan]
—
you are misinterpreting what I said .All I am dealing with ,is not the tsidkut or otherwise of the z.
We have to deal in a cold logical halachik way without emotions ,
about the continued EXISTENCE of the state ,
not about the z campaign under the british ,
not the establishment of the state ,
not about the wars that followed.
not about what the z could or should have done,
they are all history , and irrelevant
the question of the continued EXISTENCE of the state is intertwined with the pikuach nefesh of millions
and therefore extremely weighty
this question of the continued EXISTENCE of the state vs the pikuach nefesh concerns ,
is to be solved on the basis of PRESENT REALITY in 2025.
sidestepping this reality , automatically disqualifies you from any halachic logical input to deal with this problem
that would be the same as purposely ignoring the workings of a fridge and
then in the same breath claiming that you know whether its use is permitted on shabat.
—
Since the discussion is not about ‘history’ , rather about reality.meaning the EXISTENCE of the state ,
it definitely is a sfek-sfek-sfek…sfeika
whether said EXISTENCE contravenes the oaths
.
..
yankel berel:
“the question of the continued EXISTENCE of the state is intertwined with the pikuach nefesh of millions”Not really. That is literally textbook Zionism, and is heretical because it takes power away from G-d and transfers that to the “State”. Again, that “State” is a gross violation of not only the oaths but kol haTorah kulah, as the Brisker Rav noted. Obviously, as the Chazon Ish noted, it is simply a matter of time until Hashem ends that nightmare idol and its “State”.
Therefore, the core question of the continued existence of that “State” is in no way an actual pikuach nefesh question.
Obviously, if its dismantlement/transfer of powers were done improperly, then it could be a tremendous concern of pikuach nefesh, if that’s what you meant.
But regarding the core question of the “State” existing, there is obviously zero pikuach nefesh concern. If anyone claims otherwise then they are simply foolish and/or Zionist heretics. The Brisker Rav stated that it will not be the Zionists from whom Mashiach takes control of the holy land. So, obviously, Hashem will arrange the downfall of that Zionist idol, too, like all other idols, and He certainly will address any pikuach nefesh concerns.
SQUARE_ROOT:
By that “logic”, since you are not a chassid of the Chofetz Chaim, then you shouldn’t bother with his sefarim either.So, please do not follow that “logic” and instead rejoin Klal Yisrael as a believing Jew rather than as a Zionist idolater.somejewiknow:
I appreciate your kind words. Thank you. I just wish my words would actually help people rather than some other idolatrous Zionist rant overshadowing them.Worth keeping in mind that bad arguments don’t do your cause any good. It is better to have 3 solid proofs/arguments than 70 weak ones.
SomeJewIKnow, if they leave, how will they rule?
FYI, no non-Jewish ruler has done anything except persecute Jews. Mark Twain, in fact, commented that when he visited in 1867 the Land was barren. The Zionists made the desert bloom and created a regional powerhouse.
The State of Israel is a reality. That is why our enemies are going crazy. They realize that the Geula is progressing (See Yerushalmi, Berachot 1,1 that it comes slowly, in stages) and are trying not desperately to stop it. The Turks tried and lost their empire. The British tried and the Sun set on theirs. So too, all our enemies, including the Erev Rav Moshe and gilgulim of Datan and Aviram, will fail.
Katan is continuing to live in lala land …
A few questions for him – which the Brisker Rav did not address …
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for yazidi’s in the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for alawites in the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for kurds in the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for xtians in the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for druze in the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for arabs from each other in Sudan within the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for arabs from each other in Libya within the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for arabs from each other in Yemen within the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for arabs in Gaza from hamas within the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for arabs from each other in Lebanon within the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for arabs from each other in Iraq within the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
—
Assuming katan and somejew are honest enough to give accurate responses to the above questionsthe question follows –
why do they assume that the hated and demonized jews will fare any better that the above mentioned fellow arabs and fellow muslims ?
hope the lalaland somejew and katan commenters will not, like a one trick pony , broken record like, start us about the supposedly idyllic situation of the jews in moslem lands before the advent of zionism some 120 years ago.
the question is dramatic and immediate – MA NISHTANA IN 2025 ,
why are all those fellow arabs and fellow muslims in sakana over the last 20 years ,
and the hated [no difference why] jews will suddenly be safe ???
.
.Avi K:
It’s sad how you “Religious Zionists” are so bamboozled by the Zionist idol. As in:
“FYI, no non-Jewish ruler has done anything except persecute Jews. Mark Twain, in fact, commented that when he visited in 1867 the Land was barren.”First of all, the two (ruler attitude to Jews vs. land having been barren) have nothing to do with each other.
More importantly, however, there were long stretches of time throughout galus, like the Golden Age of Jews in Spain (and even the period before the Zionists invaded in the holy land), when the gentile rulers acted benevolently towards the Jews (whether because they needed the Jews or for other reasons).
Regarding the idolatrous nonsense at the end:
First of all, the eigel haZahav was also a reality. And it was (unlike the Zionist nightmare) actually miraculous, as that golden calf idol literally danced with them. Until Moshe Rabbeinu came back and pulverized it and fed its dust to its worshipers as is done to a Sotah.The geulah is certainly imminent, but it is the Zionist idol that is holding it back – not bringing it closer – of course. Claiming otherwise, like the “Religious Zionist” idolaters do, is simply silly. The geulah is accomplished by Torah and mitzvos. Zionism and its “State” are diametrically opposed to both. So, obviously, Zionism and its “State” push away the geulah, not bring it closer, as noted. And it is the Zionists that are the Erev Rav and miZera Amaleik, as it happens.
Only an idolater could take the greatest and longest-lasting in history mass-rebellion against G-d by far – Zionism – and claim that it is actually bringing the redemption, given the Torah’s clear view and plain logic that it is just the opposite. SMH.
yankel > was there pikuach nefesh for yazidi’s in the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
[with a long list]Now, we need to appreciate that R Elchonon did not know about these things. We can’t blame him for focusing at the problem at hand and not having a nevuah. Somehow, Hashem did not tell him for whatever reasons. We have a similar discussion with Rivkah not sharing her opinions of their children with Yitzhak, as she figured out that if he had “a need to know” Hashem will tell him directly.
But people who know history and ignore it have no excuse.
Chofetz Chaim ran away from emerging communist Russia – for all good reasons. He later concluded that it was better to stay and risk his life but provide some chizuk to Jews who remained trapped in Russia. What made him change his mind? probably facts that he observed – that communists were not a temporary event; that all Rabbis left; and that Russian Jews were left without leaders. And maybe that he could not help much to improve decreasing observance in free Poland also … He also changed his mind about going to EY, realizing that he will not solve the machlokes (that rages here till now), maybe personal reasons also. So, facts make talmidei chachomim update their views.
A few questions for katan – which the Brisker Rav did not address …
.katan will have to use his own head ….
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for yazidi’s in the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for alawites in the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for kurds in the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for xtians in the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for druze in the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for arabs from each other in Sudan within the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for arabs from each other in Libya within the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for arabs from each other in Yemen within the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for arabs in Gaza from hamas within the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for arabs from each other in Lebanon within the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for arabs from each other in Iraq within the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
—
Assuming katan and somejew are honest enough to give accurate responses to the above questionsthe question follows –
why do they assume that the hated and demonized jews will fare any better that the above mentioned fellow arabs and fellow muslims ?
hope the lalaland somejew and katan commenters will not, like a one trick pony , broken record like, start us about the supposedly idyllic situation of the jews in moslem lands before the advent of zionism some 120 years ago.
This is totally irrelevant .
What is relevant — is what we can logically expect from the Arabs in 2025 …
the question is dramatic and immediate – MA NISHTANA IN 2025 ,
why are all those fellow arabs and fellow muslims in sakana over the last 20 years ,
and the jews will suddenly be safe ???
.
..
@yankel berel:
No, it’s not very relevant what to expect from Arab rule in the holy land after over a century of needless and anti-Jewish Zionist agitation there, because nobody suggested that Arabs should rule there. As it happens, though, there is a different example, Morocco, where even now – despite the cataclysmic mess the Zionists intentionally made – the Jewish community still exists, with active support of their Muslim king who has restored synagogues and promoted Jewish heritage.HaKatan, the longest rebellion against HaShem is anti-Zionism, which led to a plot to turn Eretz Yisrael over to our enemies so that the lead conspirator could continue his toeva. It is continuing with refusal to do the great mitzva of defending Am Yisrael.
Alwayaskquestions, the Chofetz Chaim moved to Radin in 1869. After WW1, Radin became part of independent Poland. Check your facts before posting.
Avi, from memory, Chofetz Chaim was, I think, on the road a little during WW1 and Radin might have changed ownership several times. I think he was in also in Lita before Poland. There are several stories of that period:
– Soviet Jewish commissar was taking yeshiva students, not sure for army or works on shabbos. Chofetz Chaim visited him saying – I have no hope to convince you to change, but when you get to the din shel maaleh, you might defend yourself, saying – Chofetz Chaim was in my town, he might have convinced me to do teshuvah. So, I came to take this defence from you. [Was it literal, or was it a last desperate attempt to make the Yid listen?]– Chofetz Chaim received a letter on a Friday afternoon that the family got a permission to leave USSR (I think to Lita). His S-I-L (R Zacks?) assured him that he’ll take the first train mtzei shabbos to pick up the visas. Chofetz Chaim was surprised by this answer and told him to go immediately on Shabbos
– the story above. In Poland, he continued writing letters calling people to send packages to Jews who remained under Soviets, especially during hunger that lead to millions of deaths in Ukraine & some parts of Russia. He was specific – send this size packages every X months …
Avi K:
Please stick to facts and the Torah, not idolatrous insanity.Katan is too scared to answer questions
He knows that honesty will not serve him too well ….
.yankel berel:
Projecting again? Zionists commonly do that when the facts show them to be totally wrong.As it happens, though, there is a different example, Morocco, where even now the Jewish community still exists, with active support of their Muslim king who has restored synagogues and promoted Jewish heritage.
[katan]—
I hear your answer here.
But mr katan , what is your honest opinion ,
will EY under Arab control resemble Morrocco , a stable country for as long as we can remember, or
one of the other 12 examples of recent and present mass pikuach nefesh areas in the ME ?
considering the exagerated grievances the Arab locals are being fed with their mother’s milk for many generations
and considering the wide support hamas and islamic jihad receive in Arab society
and considering hamas’ stated policy of “the suitcase or the coffin” [H yishmor]
or their promise to duplicate October 7 again again , until there are no more jews left in palestine [H yishmor]
an honest answer mr katan – would you wager your own house on this ????
.
honesty – honesty , goes a long way ……
.
.… it’s not very relevant what to expect from Arab rule in the holy land …, because nobody suggested that Arabs should rule there …
[katan]—
plain incorrect .
somejew is clearly on record , claiming repeatedly that Arabs are respected and should be trusted with government in EY.
I asked 12 realistic questions – no answer whatsoever has been forthcoming ,yet ….
katan, however , claims some ‘unnamed esav’ should be trusted to take over government
katan consistently declines to name that country , however.
it seems it’s meant to be some sort of surprise …. in the ruach of purim maybe ….
when katan will deign to specify which country is going to be trusted to shield EY’s jews from a wild and hating Arab populace
we should ask him too whether the same wild Arab populace of EY , has agreed to be governed by this ‘esav country’ ??
very important question …
maybe katan knows what we do not know ….
maybe katan knows of other Arab populations which are governed by ‘esav vountries’ ??
he should share their names with us
just in the very unlikely case that we will be met with deafening silence as an answer [or with sidestepping]
which will cause us to take this an admission that there are not any esav countries governing Arab populations on the globe
the next question will come up – why not ??
why are no Arab populations governed by any esav countries ??
.
.“Please stick to facts and the Torah, not idolatrous insanity.”
Speak for yourself, he who worships the trinity of three Rabbonim rather HaShem Himself.
None of us are buying what you’re selling.
Yankel: All those Arab behaviors you’re describing started after that advent of Zionism and the Zionist agitation to take over political control of Palestine.
yankel berel:
Any objective observer would conclude, as the Satmar Rav wrote decades ago, that non-Zionist rule by a responsible Esav ruler would be far better for Jews there and around the world than would be any Zionist regime. This blows the mind of the Zionist idolaters, but that’s the reality. The details aren’t relevant here, nor is anyone obligated to provide them to the idolaters here.yankel, don’t laugh at their position. If I were in 1920, I might have also hoped for a benevolent ruler whether bnei Yishmael or Esav. Our immediate experience at the time was of immediate tzaar caused by anti-religious movements that already took over whole empire of Russia and were more cruel than even the czar before them. So, it was not unreasonable to worry that a similar regime, even without cruelty, would be biggest danger whether in Germany, Poland, or EY. It got to be of a puzzle why an assimilated journalist from Vienna was able to see the upcoming danger more clear than more learned and observant people. It may have been just luck – there were people in every generation who suggest something and this was the one where it was important. Imagine if Shabtai Tzvi moved people to EY right before Nazis came to power in Europe – then, he would be considered the hero.
The issue with our commentators that they see that their position was reasonable at the time, but are not able to see how it was incorrect in the hindsight. As you noted, their suggestions are very tentative.
Come on ….
Inter – Arab violence and clear mass pikuach nefesh in all 12 instances I mentioned which happened over the last 20 years are because of the Zionists ????
Hamas throwing Arabs off high rises is because of zionists ??
They have no regard whatsoever for human life , not their own and for sure not about their perceived enemies.
This is not written as a passing of moral judgement .
This is merely an observation of reality.
A reality which cannot be wished away .
A reality which has to be dealt with .
Same with all other 12 examples of totally depraved barbarities
depicted in real life right in front of our very eyes over the last 20 years all around the Middle East .
katan and somejew remind me of the proverbial ostriches
instead of burying their heads in the sand
they turn the clock back to the 1880’s – voila , no problems at all ….. all solved …..
its all the z ‘s fault ….
as if that changes reality by a millimeter …..
..
ujm > All those Arab behaviors you’re describing started after that advent of Zionism and the Zionist agitation to take over political control of Palestine.
I don’t think this argument holds. As already mentioned, in last 100 years, Arabs committed atrocities to other minorities and to other Arabs. As one of my Israeli friends said years ago: What is the mailah of being a cousin to a person who kills his brothers?!
katan> as the Satmar Rav wrote decades ago, that non-Zionist rule by a responsible Esav ruler would be far better for Jews there and around the world than would be any Zionist regime. …The details aren’t relevant here, nor is anyone obligated to provide them to the idolaters here.
You do realize that you just showed that you can’t find a realistic suggestion for Satmar model of governance in EY? I would not be surprised that SR has a better argument than you are presenting here, but you are really undermining his reputation – as he was a pretty sharp Rav. I can’t imagine if I were to ask him directly, he would give such an evasive answer. I suggest you seek some more eloquent Satmarer andask him to provide a better argument based on SR seforim so that honor of a talmid chacham does not suffer
katan :
Any objective observer would conclude, as the Satmar Rav wrote decades ago, that non-Zionist rule by a responsible Esav ruler would be far better for Jews there and around the world than would be any Zionist regime. This blows the mind of the Zionist idolaters, but that’s the reality. The details aren’t relevant here, nor is anyone obligated to provide them to the idolaters here.
—Utter folly.
SR wrote that in the fifties or in the forties when huge nations were ruled by colonial empires.
This era is long gone.
There no Arab populations being governed by esav anywhere on the globe for a long time.
There is a valid reason for that , just in case you don’t know …
They think that they can do a much better job.
Right or wrong , but that’s what they think .
So once mr katan will agree to this reality , which even a ten year old can grasp ,
then we are in business …. Arabs will not agree to be governed by outsiders , esav or not , SR or not .
Katan claims that he has some big secret in his bag , which for some mysterious reason we are not allowed to know about ….
the details of the future governing power in EY ….
he has let on that it is esav , but the rest we still have to guess …. why ???
Aha , because we are “idolaters” …..
Thats seems a fitting punishment for zionists like us !
We are sentenced to mandatory guessing games ….
—
When will katan and somejew be honest enough to agree that they do not have a solution for the pikuach nefesh needs of the jews in EY ?
When will that happen ?
Because , without honesty , it is exceedingly difficult to have real debate ….
.
.SQRT > we cannot endanger millions of Jews, and our holy places, for the Satmar Rav’s unrealistic fantasy.
I have to defend the honor of SR. It was not a fantasy before WW2. There was British empire and League of Nations with all lofty goals of minority rights. And maybe even after WW2 one could have imagined some Esav rule. But now after we know limits of Western participation in Middle East and other “third world” and history of all Arab countries. It is not Rebbe’s fault that someone continue clinging to the idea that did not survive the reality test.
AAQ:
I am not claiming to speak for the Satmar Rav and very few people alive today could probably get even close to truly understanding his greatness. My point very much remains, and the lack of detail in my humble post is in no way reflective of the Satmar Rav’s holy Torah including on this subject. You can easily read the Satmar Rav’s actual Torah on it if you were to open his sefarim on the topic.The point remains: “…as the Satmar Rav wrote decades ago, that non-Zionist rule by a responsible Esav ruler would be far better for Jews there and around the world than would be any Zionist regime. …The details aren’t relevant here, nor is anyone obligated to provide them to the idolaters here.”
If you present someone’s view, you should analyze it from the what you know. We don’t know what SR or REW would say if there were to see Yerushalaim with yeshivos and Jewish soldiers. So, you were asked a simple question that arises from SR shitah – what was the path to non-Z future for EY and also Yidden in DP camps, Muslim countries, Russia. SR did not know about ISIS, you do.
katan :
The point remains: “…as the Satmar Rav wrote decades ago, that non-Zionist rule by a responsible Esav ruler would be far better for Jews there and around the world than would be any Zionist regime. …The details aren’t relevant here, nor is anyone obligated to provide them to the idolaters here.”
—Why are the details not relevant ?
Why are we not obligated to provide them ?
Do we have those details at all ?
.
YB:
Those details aren’t needed because the point addressing the OP was sufficiently made without those details. The only ones who would have those details would be those in political power, not ordinary commenters on this forum.Those details aren’t needed because the point addressing the OP was sufficiently made without those details …
[katan]—
There are questions remaining even after your post . Seems that your point was not sufficiently made …..
.The only ones who would have those details would be those in political power, not ordinary commenters on this forum.
[katan]—
Katan agrees here that he himself does not have those details …Meaning he himself does not know which esav country would be willing to assume control of EY ….
And which esav country will be accepted by the Arabs in EY …
And still assumes that he is able to convince his readers of the practicality of his suggestion in 2025
without him self even knowing what he is suggesting ….
am wondering whether his readers should be insulted …
insulted by the apparent lack of basic intelligence katan is imputing to them ….
.
.yankel. I think we need to thank Katan for clarifying his and his rebbes’ position. To summarize my underatanding:
– anti-Z was a very reasonable response at the time, when Jewish society was destroyed from within with all kind of -isms.
– in retrospective, Z turns out to be different from communism, bundism, german-jewish nationalism – as it created a place for those non-religious Jews to survive both the spiritual and physical abyss.
– also, in retrospective, as Katan helped us to understand, there was no alternative. If we were, H’V, follow other paths, our losses would be much higher.
– Why Hashem used non-religious Zs as a kli calls for us to do teshuvah – why the religious leaders, aside from a small number of RZs and similar, were not able to lead the nation. This was probably a culmination of the whole haskalah period: Jewish communities played defence against the onslaught of modernity, and we only now are figuring out how to live in this new world.There seems to be a lack of understanding, and I apologize if anyone thinks that I was insulting their intelligence.
As mentioned before, the point remains: “…as the Satmar Rav wrote decades ago, that non-Zionist rule by a responsible Esav ruler would be far better for Jews there and around the world than would be any Zionist regime. …The details aren’t relevant here…”
You can look up the Satmar Rav’s holy words and see what he wrote. You can then take that to your LOR and ask him for details and see if he can provide to you those details if you’re really that curious. Please do not claim anything I write to be attributed to anyone’s Rebbi or Rebbe.
@Always_Ask_Questions
You summary above about Zionism being a good thing is simply horrific. As the Brisker Rav wrote (not in 1900, but a half-century later), the “State” they have managed to achieve is the greatest triumph of the satan since the cheit haEigel. Obviously, then, the “State” was not in any way a net-positive for Torah/kiruv. In fact, it has shmaded alaphim uRevavos of Jews over at least three generations and more, not to mention causing and contributing to the Holocaust which also turned many Jews off (in addition to the physical loss of millions of Jews).Since you mentioned the alternative, both the Brisker Rav and the Satmar Rav stated that if not for the “State”, Mashiach would have come. Not merely could have come, but would have come. That was the alternative that Hashem wanted, but unfortunately the wicked Zionists robbed us of that and haven’t stopped doing so until this day.
@hakatan
I think you should be clear on what likely obvious to you which is that the cause of Moshiach’s delay was because of the Zionist leanings of otherwise kosher yidden, ie those who had not already adopted the full fledged kefira of Zionism but simply acquiesced to or otherwise accepted the followers of the zionist moshiach sheker religion, since the real full fledged Zionists – shomer shabbos or not – are no longer part of klal yisroel as per Torah guidelines.Katan, I went to re-read a sefer of articles and letters from Chofetz Chaim in 1930s. He writes about different tzoros and wrong things people were doing, including sending children to non-Jewish gymnasia, non-religious or “cultural” schools. I could not find so far any criticism of RZ or even Z activites or schools (the publisher is charedi).
The fact is that those who followed Zionists to EY mostly survived and are Jewish. A large portion of them is shomer shabbat or “traditional”. Even those who are not observant (and most likely whose grandparents were not observant with or without Zs) are still Jewish and have a chance. A large number of people who never heard about Z, either post-WW2 or Sephardim came to EY without any ideology, but still benefitted. Those who listened to R Elchonon in large part perished, as did he. Those who survived and ended up in other countries also suffered high intermarriage rates. I am not sure how else you interpret these facts.
> You can look up the Satmar Rav’s holy words and see what he wrote. You can then take that to your LOR and ask him for details and see if he can provide to you those details if you’re really that curious.
You provided the words. We provided analysis that shows that the Esav idea, while reasonable at a time, does not match recent history. If you do not have an answer in your mind, maybe you can ask or write a letter to someone who share your views and share their answer with us?
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