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the real full fledged Zionists – shomer shabbos or not – are no longer part of klal yisroel as per Torah guidelines.
[somejew]—
somejew clearly contradicts karyane de’igrata vol 1 …..
and contradicts worldwide accepted halachik practise in all batei hora’a
and all rabanim and dayanim
all because of some supposed obligation to fit with wrongly preconceived ideological shitah ….
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.As mentioned before, the point remains: “…as the Satmar Rav wrote decades ago, that non-Zionist rule by a responsible Esav ruler would be far better for Jews there and around the world than would be any Zionist regime. …The details aren’t relevant here…”
You can look up the Satmar Rav’s holy words and see what he wrote. You can then take that to your LOR and ask him for details and see if he can provide to you those details if you’re really that curious. Please do not claim anything I write to be attributed to anyone’s Rebbi or Rebbe
[katan]—
in other words – katan hereby admits that he does not have a solution …
he refers ‘curious’ people to a non defined address
to explain a non defined idea …
and on top of all that, still expects the ‘non curious’ people to take him seriously ….
.
.AAQ:
“The fact is that those who followed Zionists to EY mostly survived and are Jewish. A large portion of them is shomer shabbat or “traditional”. Even those who are not observant (and most likely whose grandparents were not observant with or without Zs) are still Jewish and have a chance.”
First of all, Palestine was under grave threat from the Nazi general Rommel, and Hashem supernaturally interceded to save all the Jews there from the evil Nazis. Second, you have ignored everything I wrote about this in my post. Those who went to Palestine “mostly survived and are Jewish”, you say? Again, the Zionists have shmaded generations of Jews, all of before, during and after WW II. “Shomer Shabbos” or “traditional” are nice, in theory, but anyone who denies even a single letter of the Torah is a heretic, and the Zionists deny much more than one letter – more like the whole Torah, with some limited exceptions. As the Brisker Rav put it, and many others including the Gerrer Rebbe signed on, the “Religious Zionist” education is a “sea of heresy mixed in with a drop of Torah”.
Next:
“You provided the words. We provided analysis that shows that the Esav idea, while reasonable at a time, does not match recent history. If you do not have an answer in your mind, maybe you can ask or write a letter to someone who share your views and share their answer with us?”No, you did not provide any such analysis. You just pointed out random ideas that do not at all refute the Esav idea. The Esav idea, of course, remains perfectly reasonable today. Just hypothetically, and for example, if the United States of America were to take over and annex that as an overseas territory, do you really think that President Trump or a similar leader would allow some savage to ruin that? No, he obviously would not.
@yankel-berel
Nothing I said is at odds with “karyane de’igrata” nor with mainstream published halacha.
I addressed these complaints of your repeatedly and you ignore them and repeat the question as if I never offered an answer.So here it is again:
1) The Steipler Geon never said a Zionist cannot ever become a kofer b’ikar. (see https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/going-otd-in-the-idf#post-2445601 )
2) There are zero mainstream charedi poskim who have published psak defending zionism, zionist ideology, or full-fleged zionists. There has not even been a published disagreement with the well known Vayoel Moshe from Satmar Rebbe (see https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-antizionism-amongst-religious-jews-has-no-legitimate-detractors )Whatever “mainstream psak” you might be thinking of (if you are thinking at all.. can’t tell) would likely be the majority of
tinuk sh’nishba types that are not “full fledged” zionists, i.e those who have been deceived on what the Torah teaches and if they would be faced between accepting the 13 ikkarim OR “dati leumi” zionism would reject the false moshiach religion called “Dati leumi”. Others might very well choose zionism, R”L. In the meantime, fools like yourself think they can worship both Baal and Hashem, H”y. In light of the doubt presented by the reality that many shomer mitzvos mistakenly think “dati leumi” is a kosher shita in Torah, the poskim have poskin’d.Katan, you are using circular logic – everyone related to zionism is a heretic. Therefore, all the people saved by Zionists and who are observant today are heretics and their lives do not matter. This is against anything I ever heard from gedolim of any direction. R Schach, for example, writes that Hashem caused Arabs to hate early Zionists to prevent them from assimilation into local culture. Clearly, Rav thought that Hashem cares. Even if taking your position, Israelis stayed Jewish, while similar Jews in other countries intermarried or were killed.
> President Trump
We don’t know what will happen in the future. We were discussing definite events in the past – none of the middle eastern countries stayed under Esav, they went thru communist and islamic phases. Your “solution” would have condemned all Jews of EY, Europe, Sefarad, USSR to either assimilation or physical suffering. Again, if you have a Rov to ask – I’ll be interested to hear his opinion on this hypothetical future.
…. and for example, if the United States of America were to take over and annex that as an overseas territory, do you really think that President Trump or a similar leader would allow some savage to ruin that? No, he obviously would not.
[katan]—
Oh … after so much prodding …
finally did katan agree to let the cat out of the bag ….
the secret is out : the US is the mysterious esav who is going to administer EY .
the same US who withdrew from Afghanistan , Iraq and Lebanon after
many years ,
many dead ,
many wounded
many trillions of debt,that very same US will have the appetite to tolerate another round of their middle eastern adventures ?
and successive administrations will keep the course ?
new and changing majorities in congress and senate will keep up their support ?
..
the most important question – what will the situation be when the inevitable withdrawal will happen ?what is the situation going to be for the mothers and the children in EY ?
what is the situation going to be for the elderly in EY ?
what is the situation going to be for the fathers, the breadwinners and protectors of the family, in EY ?
what is katan suggesting ?
to have bitachon ?
.kdushat levi and r yisrael salanter both famously said that
there is no place for bitachon when someone else’s gashmiyut is at risk …am betting that katan would not risk his own house – where he should have bitachon- in such a scenario …
whoever follows katan in this reasoning , is totally off the torah derech ….
.First of all, Palestine was under grave threat from the Nazi general Rommel, and Hashem supernaturally interceded to save all the Jews there from the evil Nazis ….
[katan]—
Not ‘supernatural’ .
that was not a nes .
just like Israeli military victories are not a nes
same with the military victory of the british at el alamein – it was not a nes .
both were clear hashgacha pratit.
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