Home › Forums › Decaffeinated Coffee › Tiferes Shlomo and the modern State of Israel
- This topic has 83 replies, 10 voices, and was last updated 18 hours, 34 minutes ago by yankel berel.
-
AuthorPosts
-
September 18, 2025 11:53 am at 11:53 am #2451501yankel berelParticipant
the real full fledged Zionists – shomer shabbos or not – are no longer part of klal yisroel as per Torah guidelines.
[somejew]—
somejew clearly contradicts karyane de’igrata vol 1 …..
and contradicts worldwide accepted halachik practise in all batei hora’a
and all rabanim and dayanim
all because of some supposed obligation to fit with wrongly preconceived ideological shitah ….
.
.September 18, 2025 11:53 am at 11:53 am #2451502yankel berelParticipantAs mentioned before, the point remains: “…as the Satmar Rav wrote decades ago, that non-Zionist rule by a responsible Esav ruler would be far better for Jews there and around the world than would be any Zionist regime. …The details aren’t relevant here…”
You can look up the Satmar Rav’s holy words and see what he wrote. You can then take that to your LOR and ask him for details and see if he can provide to you those details if you’re really that curious. Please do not claim anything I write to be attributed to anyone’s Rebbi or Rebbe
[katan]—
in other words – katan hereby admits that he does not have a solution …
he refers ‘curious’ people to a non defined address
to explain a non defined idea …
and on top of all that, still expects the ‘non curious’ people to take him seriously ….
.
.September 18, 2025 11:54 am at 11:54 am #2451591HaKatanParticipantAAQ:
“The fact is that those who followed Zionists to EY mostly survived and are Jewish. A large portion of them is shomer shabbat or “traditional”. Even those who are not observant (and most likely whose grandparents were not observant with or without Zs) are still Jewish and have a chance.”
First of all, Palestine was under grave threat from the Nazi general Rommel, and Hashem supernaturally interceded to save all the Jews there from the evil Nazis. Second, you have ignored everything I wrote about this in my post. Those who went to Palestine “mostly survived and are Jewish”, you say? Again, the Zionists have shmaded generations of Jews, all of before, during and after WW II. “Shomer Shabbos” or “traditional” are nice, in theory, but anyone who denies even a single letter of the Torah is a heretic, and the Zionists deny much more than one letter – more like the whole Torah, with some limited exceptions. As the Brisker Rav put it, and many others including the Gerrer Rebbe signed on, the “Religious Zionist” education is a “sea of heresy mixed in with a drop of Torah”.
Next:
“You provided the words. We provided analysis that shows that the Esav idea, while reasonable at a time, does not match recent history. If you do not have an answer in your mind, maybe you can ask or write a letter to someone who share your views and share their answer with us?”No, you did not provide any such analysis. You just pointed out random ideas that do not at all refute the Esav idea. The Esav idea, of course, remains perfectly reasonable today. Just hypothetically, and for example, if the United States of America were to take over and annex that as an overseas territory, do you really think that President Trump or a similar leader would allow some savage to ruin that? No, he obviously would not.
September 18, 2025 7:31 pm at 7:31 pm #2451985somejewiknowParticipant@yankel-berel
Nothing I said is at odds with “karyane de’igrata” nor with mainstream published halacha.
I addressed these complaints of your repeatedly and you ignore them and repeat the question as if I never offered an answer.So here it is again:
1) The Steipler Geon never said a Zionist cannot ever become a kofer b’ikar. (see https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/going-otd-in-the-idf#post-2445601 )
2) There are zero mainstream charedi poskim who have published psak defending zionism, zionist ideology, or full-fleged zionists. There has not even been a published disagreement with the well known Vayoel Moshe from Satmar Rebbe (see https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-antizionism-amongst-religious-jews-has-no-legitimate-detractors )Whatever “mainstream psak” you might be thinking of (if you are thinking at all.. can’t tell) would likely be the majority of
tinuk sh’nishba types that are not “full fledged” zionists, i.e those who have been deceived on what the Torah teaches and if they would be faced between accepting the 13 ikkarim OR “dati leumi” zionism would reject the false moshiach religion called “Dati leumi”. Others might very well choose zionism, R”L. In the meantime, fools like yourself think they can worship both Baal and Hashem, H”y. In light of the doubt presented by the reality that many shomer mitzvos mistakenly think “dati leumi” is a kosher shita in Torah, the poskim have poskin’d.September 18, 2025 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #2452036Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantKatan, you are using circular logic – everyone related to zionism is a heretic. Therefore, all the people saved by Zionists and who are observant today are heretics and their lives do not matter. This is against anything I ever heard from gedolim of any direction. R Schach, for example, writes that Hashem caused Arabs to hate early Zionists to prevent them from assimilation into local culture. Clearly, Rav thought that Hashem cares. Even if taking your position, Israelis stayed Jewish, while similar Jews in other countries intermarried or were killed.
> President Trump
We don’t know what will happen in the future. We were discussing definite events in the past – none of the middle eastern countries stayed under Esav, they went thru communist and islamic phases. Your “solution” would have condemned all Jews of EY, Europe, Sefarad, USSR to either assimilation or physical suffering. Again, if you have a Rov to ask – I’ll be interested to hear his opinion on this hypothetical future.
September 18, 2025 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #2452113yankel berelParticipant…. and for example, if the United States of America were to take over and annex that as an overseas territory, do you really think that President Trump or a similar leader would allow some savage to ruin that? No, he obviously would not.
[katan]—
Oh … after so much prodding …
finally did katan agree to let the cat out of the bag ….
the secret is out : the US is the mysterious esav who is going to administer EY .
the same US who withdrew from Afghanistan , Iraq and Lebanon after
many years ,
many dead ,
many wounded
many trillions of debt,that very same US will have the appetite to tolerate another round of their middle eastern adventures ?
and successive administrations will keep the course ?
new and changing majorities in congress and senate will keep up their support ?
..
the most important question – what will the situation be when the inevitable withdrawal will happen ?what is the situation going to be for the mothers and the children in EY ?
what is the situation going to be for the elderly in EY ?
what is the situation going to be for the fathers, the breadwinners and protectors of the family, in EY ?
what is katan suggesting ?
to have bitachon ?
.kdushat levi and r yisrael salanter both famously said that
there is no place for bitachon when someone else’s gashmiyut is at risk …am betting that katan would not risk his own house – where he should have bitachon- in such a scenario …
whoever follows katan in this reasoning , is totally off the torah derech ….
.September 18, 2025 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #2452115yankel berelParticipantFirst of all, Palestine was under grave threat from the Nazi general Rommel, and Hashem supernaturally interceded to save all the Jews there from the evil Nazis ….
[katan]—
Not ‘supernatural’ .
that was not a nes .
just like Israeli military victories are not a nes
same with the military victory of the british at el alamein – it was not a nes .
both were clear hashgacha pratit.
.
.September 21, 2025 12:52 pm at 12:52 pm #2452206yankel berelParticipantyou said and I quote :
“the real full fledged Zionists – shomer shabbos or not – are no longer part of klal yisroel as per Torah guidelines.”
A] real full fledged zionists , shomer shabbat [and I will add here] shomrei halacha and ma’minim be 13 ikarei emuna
which I suppose is included in your description of shomrei shabat – are no longer part of klal yisroel
by sole virtue of their being ‘full fledged zionists’
thats my understanding of your words ….
.
B] what do you mean by the words ‘full fledged zionists’ ?
again , my understanding here – someone who believes that the medina is athalta d/g .
he supports the medina with all his might
and thinks that this is thw way to bring mashiach
ad kan my understanding of your description of a ‘full fledged zionist’
please correct me if I am wrong in A ? in B ? or in both ?
.
.Supposing I am right in both A and in B , and I do understand you correctly ….
then I definitely stand by my previous post
you do contradict karyane de ‘igrata and all rabanim and dayanim in klal israel .
.
..
am interested to hear your rejoinder .
.
.September 21, 2025 12:52 pm at 12:52 pm #2452215yankel berelParticipantsomejew’s brain is apparently kidnapped by aliens and reprogrammed by them to make
him think that it is a binary choice between the 13 ikarim and zionism
hence his convoluted and wrong approach.
.in somejew’s reprogrammed mind it is a contradiction
either you are with zionism or you are with the 13 ikarim
would like to get hold of those aliens , maybe
they can deprogram somejew’s mind and let him think , think and …. think
.
.maybe he will see that zionism , although it is , in my eyes, and
in most of the rabbanim’s eyes, a negative movement
and although most of its adherents and founders were apikorsim
.nevertheless it is still possible to fully believe in the 13 ikarim
and still be a ‘full fledged’ zionist
I challenged somejew repeatedly on these pages to explain why it is impossible
to adhere simultaneously to the 13 ikarim and to zionism
but I was not deemed worthy enough in his eyes to merit a response on that specific question
probably it is, because he is too wise to answer fools like me ….
.
but I will pose the question again anyhow
where in the 13 ikarim do we find a contradiction to zionism ?
.
.September 21, 2025 12:52 pm at 12:52 pm #2452217HaKatanParticipantyankel berel:
You misunderstood. As I wrote, it was an example and illustration under the specific conditions noted. Besides, you cannot compare the attempts to remake a country vs a peaceful handover (however exactly that would work out).Again, the point is that Hashem does not want the Zionists there so, therefore, there obviously must be a better alternative. Decades ago, the Satmar Rav noted that if the Zionists wanted, that they could approach the nations to have them figure it out. Only a Zionist idolater would definitively state that it is impossible to have anything other than Zionist rule.
September 22, 2025 1:24 pm at 1:24 pm #2452895Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantkatan > therefore, there obviously must be a better alternative. Decades ago, the Satmar Rav noted that if the Zionists wanted, that they could approach the nations to have them figure it out. Only a Zionist idolater would definitively state that it is impossible to have anything other than Zionist rule.
So, you conclude, as we do, that there was no logical alternative for a goyishe government in EY, only smuchim alhanes. Again, this is in retrospective, SR did not know that. But if you are willing to rely on the nes, you should not limit yourself to Zionist restrictions. Maybe organize your own state in the area – PA, Gaz, East bank? Maybe a realistic approach right now would be a buffer state between Israel and Lebanon or Syria? Syrians are very eager to show their tolerance, so a mixed Druze/Satmar state could work.
September 22, 2025 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #2453043yankel berelParticipantkatan > Decades ago, the Satmar Rav noted that if the Zionists wanted, that they could approach the nations to have them figure it out
—since when do we base solutions regarding pikuach nefesh problems on how situations presented themselves half a century earlier ??
your approach here , sounds [sorry] like a choice between comedy and a tragedy ….
.
.September 22, 2025 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #2453045yankel berelParticipantkatan > … Only a Zionist idolater would definitively state that it is impossible to have anything other than Zionist rule.
—
you missed someone out here …. a realist .
a realist is not beholden to any ideological straightjacket
a realist has no preconceived notions to what the solution is meant to be
a realist’s solutions are tailor-made to …. reality
exactly the approach the torah mandates the Jew to take
torah mandates the Jew to find and execute the most fitting solution to reality as is possible
if that means the continuation of those despicable zionists – so be it …
pikuach nefesh doche et kol hatora , including any possible shavu’oth
.
.September 22, 2025 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #2453042yankel berelParticipantkatan > the point is that Hashem does not want the Zionists there so, therefore, there obviously must be a better alternative
—
you see that the zionists ARE THERE , must be therefore , that Hashem wants them there ,
otherwise they would not be there ….
.
there must be a better alternative …. who said ???.
.September 25, 2025 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #2453307yankel berelParticipantit is still possible to fully believe in the 13 ikarim
and still be a ‘full fledged’ zionist
.
.I challenged somejew repeatedly on these pages to explain why it is impossible
to adhere simultaneously to the 13 ikarim and to zionism
but I was not deemed worthy enough in his eyes to merit a response on that specific question
.
.maybe it is because he considers himself too wise to answer fools like me ….
.
but I will pose the question again anyhow
where in the 13 ikarim do we find a contradiction to zionism ?
.
.
.September 25, 2025 2:32 pm at 2:32 pm #2453539yankel berelParticipantAs usual , there is no response forthcoming from either somejew , nor katan on the above issue
but had another important question to both of them :
if you , somejew or katan , would have been on that fateful bus in ramot when those two arab murderers started shooting at innocent civilians , murdering six and wounding countless others ,
and you would have a mobile on you – would you call the police ??
please , a “to the point answer” , without sidestepping , with a reason behind your answer …
.
.September 25, 2025 10:19 pm at 10:19 pm #2453905somejewiknowParticipant@yankel-berel
answer your question, you would need to define “gulis”, “moshiach”, and “zionism” first.
You are welcome to provide your working definitions or request mine, I only ask that they are meaningful specific definitions, such as – for example – your definition of zionism must specifically mean the novel ideology that was started with that name in the late 19th century and is currently valid for that movement.
If your answer is “no one knows what zionism is” or some other ignorance, it precludes any meaningful persuasive conversation.September 28, 2025 9:20 am at 9:20 am #2454089HaKatanParticipant@yankel berel:
“you see that the zionists ARE THERE , must be therefore , that Hashem wants them there, otherwise they would not be there ….”
So, by that logic, the Nazi concentration camps must have also been what G-d WANTED (not just allowed to happen, but WANTED); otherwise, those would not have been there either.
For that matter, the destruction of the Temples and the murder of the millions (or more) in Beithar, and on and on, must have also been what G-d WANTED.
Obviously not. He certainly allowed it to happen, but very much did not WANT it to happen.
September 28, 2025 9:23 am at 9:23 am #2454098yankel berelParticipantno problem . challenge accepted
here we go
zionism is the movement which advocated for a return of the jews to EY and their establishment of an independent state there .
galut is the forced dispersion of the jews after hurban bayit sheni
mashiach is the shliach from the RBSH’O to take all jews back to EY and who will rebuild the bet hamikdash
.so the question was and still is – where in the 13 ikarim is there something against zionism ?
.
thanks
.September 29, 2025 11:28 am at 11:28 am #2454563somejewiknowParticipant@yankel-berel
thank you for the response.Zionism as you describe doesn’t fit the history. The first generations of zionism were not focused on EY, rather there were numerous suggestions and considerations before the movement voted on EY.
I would suggest tweaking your answer to “zionism is the movement which advocated for establishment of an independent ‘Jewish’ state anywhere “.
gulis is not only the dispersion of Jews, rather gulis is a reality even in EY. I would suggest a better definition: Gulis is a Divine decree for the Jews to suffer under “shibid malchiyis” – under the the rule of non-Jewish nations. This definition aligns very well with the makoros in Torah that point out that the gulis of buvel has never yet fully ended (as Bais Sheni was not fully independent from shibid malchiyis).
moshiach is a bit more specific than what you wrote. Moshiach is a direct descendent of Duvid Hamelech who is a nuvi of Hashem (with all the established conditions of a nuvi) who brings back all Jews to tshiva (keeping all miztvos), can judge and issue psak with his smell, rebuild the Beis Hamikdash, and restore Malchis Beis Duvid as King. There are more details brought in chazal, such as Eliyuhi Hanuvi (also a nuvi of Hashem, of course) will publicly announce the arrival of Moshiach before he reveals himself, and I am sure that you agree that the definition of “Moshiach” must include all those details as well, even if here is not the place to expound on them all fully.
Please let me know if you agree with my adjustments or provide your feedback in order to move the conversation forward.
September 29, 2025 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #2455372Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantsomejew > “zionism is the movement which advocated for establishment of an independent ‘Jewish’ state anywhere “.
maybe. Early pre-Hertzl Zionism – Odessa and such, were focused on EY. And so was Hertzl. True, his primary motivation was fear of anti-semitism in Europe (pretty prophetic, unfortunately), and when things did not develop as fast as he expected, he proposed Ua=ganda – and the idea was soundly defeated.
Ironically, it seems that Uganda would be OK with you, not (or less) against 3 shevuos.
October 1, 2025 1:27 am at 1:27 am #2455492somejewiknowParticipant@always_ask_questions
Don’t make this about be. I only ever publicize and defend established Torah ideas. And no, Zionism is evil and antisemitic in the US as in Uganda as in Palestine. Dont get me wrong, their Zionist movement has certainly profaned the holy land as much as the holy language and the holy nation, turning them all into physical secular concepts. And, I suppose it would be better if the didn’t profane the holy land and chose Uganda or had not profaned the holy tongue and chose Russian, and kv”ch bkv”ch if they hadn’t targeted the holy nation and called themselves anything but “Jewish”. Nonetheless, it would all be the same battle against Hashem and His Torah, just perhaps less effective on tricking simpler Jews.October 1, 2025 1:28 am at 1:28 am #2455494HaKatanParticipantAlways_Ask_Questions:
“And so was Hertzl. True, his primary motivation was fear of anti-semitism in Europe (pretty prophetic, unfortunately)…”
This is a classic Zionist myth, of course.No, his primary motivation was wanting to be “normal”, which is why his first plan was mass baptism R”L L”A. Once that didn’t work out, he chose Zionism, especially because of how en vogue it was among the Christian Zionists (who long pre-dated him and his fellow heretics) and how he would be able to propagandize Jews for it.
If his mythological supposed concern was in any way “prophetic”, then it was very much of the “self-fulfilling” type. In fact, he and other Zionists deliberately said nasty things about Jews, like “A Jew’s life is a dog’s life”, and that a Jew cannot be a citizen of his host country, and on and on. He, himself, wrote that anti-Semites will become the Zionists’ friends, because that would get Jews to emigrate to their planned future State.
And on and on.
October 1, 2025 1:28 am at 1:28 am #2455495yankel berelParticipantRe the definition of zionism
You are correct about their founders view about a state not in EY .
However he was overruled at the time , and now no one is even dreaming about a state anywhere else.
the zionism of today is squarely centered on EY .
and that was the intent of the original question , how is zionism of today against any of the ikarim ?
.
.October 1, 2025 1:29 am at 1:29 am #2455497yankel berelParticipantsomejew > Gulis : This definition aligns very well with the makoros in Torah that point out that the gulis of buvel has never yet fully ended (as Bais Sheni was not fully independent from shibid malchiyis).
—Have a look at rashi sanhedrin 97 where he explains that many years of bayit sheni period was characterized by ‘kavod’ because they were politically independent and self governing … without shibud malhuyot .
—
umipnei chata’enu galinu me’artsenu venitrachaknu …. galut translates as exile in english
but you are correct that there are added meanings to the term galut as is mentioned by the gra that after the 4 galuyot under the 4 malhuyot, there will be a fifth galut under the erev rav mizera bnei yisrael , which came true in our days in EY itself
so we do see that galut could be in EY itself too.
there was a gezera min hashamayim of exile and shib’ud malhuyot , as evidenced by the facts on the ground and as stated by hazal.
.
.October 1, 2025 1:31 am at 1:31 am #2455539yankel berelParticipantOctober 3, 2025 8:37 am at 8:37 am #2456050somejewiknowParticipantI have attempted, because I demand from myself, to provide definitions that are intrinsic and fundamental to each concept. So, the definition of zionism – as per this standard – must be unique and consistent to that specific ideology, meaning it applies to the first founders as well as each successive generation that carried their disgusting banner. And the inverse is true, meaning here if someone believes jews should NOT establish their own “Jewish” state anywhere in the world, they could never be called a zionist. While some have emphasized other ideas, working land, becoming rich, making peace, killing others, becoming secular, becoming religious, etc, the core defining feature of what is or is not “zionism” remains the same: establishing a “Jewish” state.
so too the definition of gulis I provided is consistent across all meforshim, both those meforshim who say that the years of Bayis Shaini were gulis and those who say they were geila.
However your feedback reveals a mistake you are making, perhaps in light of your reliance on artscroll translations. In Torah, “gulis” is a state of our relationship with Hashem, also called “gulis haShechina”. Pointing to the quote you mentioned, gulis is the reality of our sins standing in the way, and gulis is the means of fixing – and thereby removing – those sins. And this is not “added layers of meaning”, rather this is fundamental to the concept of gulis and geila, as chazal teach and is an explicit pasuk that gulis cannot end without tshiva.
A symptom of gulis and a key mechanism of gulis being the tikun is our dispersion amongst various nations and our exile out of eretz yisroel. Yet the reality of gulis exists even when jews gather together and even when we are in the physical borders of EY. This is why many haluches are different in EY during gulis vs geila. This is also why Yerishalmis today still say “leshuneh habu b’Yerishalyim”.
So, I would like to update my definition of “gulis” to: Gulis is a Divine decree for the Jews to suffer under “shibid malchiyis” specifically because of our sins to Hashem that caused “Gulis Shechina”. The gulis is the Divine mechanism towards our tikin and will necessarily only end when Jews do teshiva.
Regarding the definition of Moshiach, I omitted another distinct point worth mentioning: “מקבץ נדחי ישראל” as the Rambam says it, which means gathering all the dispersed Jews together. I’ve added it below.
RECAP:
Zionism is the movement which advocated for establishment of an independent ‘Jewish’ state anywhere.Moshiachis a direct descendent of Duvid Hamelech who is a nuvi of Hashem (with all the established conditions of a nuvi) who brings back all Jews to tshiva (keeping all miztvos), can judge and issue psak with his smell, rebuild the Beis Hamikdash, gather all dispersed Jews together, and restore Malchis Beis Duvid as King. There are more details brought in chazal, such as Eliyuhi Hanuvi (also a nuvi of Hashem, of course) will publicly announce the arrival of Moshiach before he reveals himself, and all those details as well, even if here is not the place to expound on them all fully.
Gulis is a Divine decree for the Jews to suffer under “shibid malchiyis” specifically because of our sins to Hashem that caused “Gulis Shechina”. The gulis is the Divine mechanism towards our tikin and will necessarily only end when Jews do teshiva.
Please let me know if we are in agreement with the three definitions and I will continue to the next step.
October 3, 2025 8:38 am at 8:38 am #2456100Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantHaKatan, right, Herzl was a thoroughly assimilated Jew who realized, to his shock, that Jews are hated and started looking for ways out. Many people like him chose conversion, others chose to fight their governments in a hope that revolutions will bring equality among other benefits. All of those people are not part of Jewish nation anymore. Those who among all -isms chose zionisms (thanks, in part, to Herzl) have their grandchildren Jewish and maybe even observant.
October 5, 2025 11:55 pm at 11:55 pm #2456497HaKatanParticipantAlways_Ask_Questions:
You aren’t being specific: Jews who specifically were looking to “integrate” into secular culture were rejected from doing so. Jews continuing to live as Jews as did their fathers and grandfathers and all the way back, however, were doing just fine.You also seem to have missing the part that his Plan A was conversion. He himself has zero Jewish descendants as do others who became Zionists, of course. Since the entire goal of Zionism was assimilation, there would obviously be no objection to intermarriage. Even today, Zionists move out to various countries and marry the women there. And, not to forget, the wicked Zionists also run programs to mingle their youth with the Arabs, and Yad Lachim and others exist specifically for the purpose of rescuing Jewish women from the hell that is an Arab “husband” and village.
No, Zionism does not at all guarantee Jewish grandchildren.
October 5, 2025 11:55 pm at 11:55 pm #2456529yankel berelParticipant@AAQ
your description of zionism and its supposed benefits are totally warped and not resemble reality at all.
as I told you many times … you jump to opinions first and only then to the facts .
with the result that you grossly misinterpret the facts
your said misrepresentation of the facts are subsequently used by you
to back up your previous opinions which were not based on objective facts in the first place….
in other words – until you do not change your modus operandi
you will be perpetually stuck in a self delusional world .
.
.October 9, 2025 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #2457367Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantHaKatan > You aren’t being specific: Jews who specifically were looking to “integrate” into secular culture were rejected from doing so. Jews continuing to live as Jews as did their fathers and grandfathers and all the way back, however, were doing just fine. … his Plan A was conversion.
Yes, of course – Hertzl, like many non-religious Jews at the time – hoped to become equal citizens and Dreyfus affair showed him that this is not attainable through assimilation. What I am saying – for people like that, following Zionists to EY was a way better path than alternatives that existed at the time – conversion, communism, german nationalism. That was the main impact of Zionism on Jewish population. In no way I am supporting all the other narushkeit.
October 9, 2025 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #2457368Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant> He himself has zero Jewish descendants
his family was indeed tragic. He had 3 Jewish children, so he was yotze on pru urvu. Two children died young from overdoes/shooting themselves. Third was killed in the nazi camp. The grandson eventually killed himself after the war.
October 9, 2025 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #2457419yankel berelParticipantdisagree re definition of zionism
our dabate is about how to view the zionist of today – not the zionist of the congress of basel some 130 years ago.
the zionist of today is the one who advocates for a jewish state and its welfare in EY
no zionist today advocates for a state in uganda , birobidzhan or anywhere else.
this debate has to be had on a realistic basis .
that is today’s reality and our debate should reflect that reality.
.
.October 9, 2025 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #2457420yankel berelParticipantsome minor adjustments re your other definitions –
mashiach – rambam does not bring all of your descriptions in hilchot mlachim although they do appear in hazal .
could be he held that those left out are in dispute between various different hazal and thats why he left them out …
.
re galut – agree , but the gra said that after the shib’ud of the four malhuyot we will suffer from a shib’ud under the erev rav mizera yisraelwhich fits the present situation where the ma’aminim are a persecuted minority under erev rav kofrim mizera bnei yisrael.
that is also a form of galut
.
. -
AuthorPosts
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.