Going OTD in the IDF

If this is true – this is either to a bad job educators are doing or maybe because they are allowing only the weakest students to go to IDF. We do have halochos that anyone in some Parsha or stam afraid should stay home. Maybe, yeshivos should have a special pre-army track – take physically capable students and teach them middos and halochos of how to behave in the army and show the world what the Torah education can produce. Start with a small group as a pilot project.

I’m also very curious how many members who join “Jews for J” also go off the derech…

I only have anecdotal evidence. I made Aliya to a settlement, and befriended a group of guys. Because I was an oleh, my enlistment was deferred by a year, and in the meantime, my friends who were all religious, some even shtark, joined. All of them except for one went OTD. I saw this and threw out the enlistment papers.
A year later, one or two of the OTD boys kind of came back, meaning they don’t violate Shabbos and mostly wear a kippa.

50–70%? That number is laughably inflated and collapses under the slightest scrutiny. If it were true, we’d be watching tens of thousands of religious dropouts flooding Israeli society every single year. No serious researcher, statistician, or even anecdotal observer can back that up — it’s scare tactics, nothing more.

And let’s be honest: just as many young men go off the proverbial derech after 12 years in the Charedi yeshiva system itself. Anyone who’s spent time in the real world knows this. Pretending the phenomenon only exists in the IDF is cheap, predictable, and a shameful case of passing the buck.

Worse yet, it is disgraceful to constantly demonize the IDF — the very institution where young Jewish men and women fight, and too often die, protecting all of Am Yisrael, including those who sit comfortably at home and brand them as lowly, godless untouchables. If you want to have an honest conversation about challenges to faith in our generation, fine — but stop using the IDF as your whipping boy. It insults both the truth and the sacrifice of Jews who risk their lives for Klal Yisrael.

A fair follow-up study would also be “How many IDF soldiers became baalei Teshuva as a result of their service in the IDF? Rabbi Shalom Arush and Rabbi Lazar Brody come to mind

I’m not going to answer the question because I realize I don’t know. No one does. There hasn’t been any significant study done to my knowledge. Our resident Kanoim and likeminded people will say that the IDF causes people to go OTD; a quite obvious cause and effect. Hesder-minded people won’t want to discuss it because obviously one is too much.
Those who speak don’t know. It’s unlikely anyone does know; even if someone does, they won’t talk about it based on demographics. LuckyStrike, I appreciate that you’re asking questions, but take everything with a grain of salt; it is an emotionally loaded topic with great incentives to bend the truth.

This is purely anecdotal, but I live in Israel and know a number of religious boys who went to the army. I know of one who went OTD, and one who was on their way to being OTD but came back because of the army. All of the others (hesder boys) thankfully remained frum.

What @Ari Knobler said is true.

This is just plain slander and laughably untrue. For this to be true, thousands would have to be going OTD every year and that just is not true by any stretch of the imagination. The RZ Tzibbur would literally be unable to run a Shul or minyan if this were true, much less the 80 thriving Yeshivot Hesder and the numerous Pre-Army Mechinot.

It is as I have said: Those who go OTD in the Army by and large are those who were looking for an excuse to do so.

Since there are no official metrics being recorded on the matter ( at least to my knowledge ), and so all information anyone has to share on the topic is tachles mere heresay – I’ll throw in my 2 cents as well, as someone who was in a Haredi battalion (gdud 97), as a combat soldier, and as someone who has seen at least 15 individuals go completely OTD while in the IDF in a Haredi battalion (only counting those whom I can mention by name, and discuss their specific journey in some level of detail – NOT including all the other dozens who I’ve seen go OTD without being directly involved in their story in any way shape or form).

The issue with Yiddishkeit in the IDF, even in the Haredi battalions, is a bit complex, and I don’t have the time to sit through an entire explanation of my own observations atm – do let me know if you’re interested in the rest of my take – but the gist of it… In the army, the first stage is always to break down the person in order to rebuild him the way the army wants him to be – with complete submission and loyalty to their system. Every single minute of the day is planned out. Important to mention as well, is that it is not common enough to have an actually religious commander over you, and even in the Haredi battalions, at best you can hope to get a commander that is either OTD himself – but technically Haredi because “he’s been there” – or a Mizrachi, which has its own issues (they have no problem being lax in many mitzvos as a way of life, something which someone from a Haredi backgorund will falter in). So for 4 entire months of Tironut/basic training, excluding a very brief Shabbos break every few weeks where all the soldier wants is to sleep and eat well before going back immediately after – every. single. minute. is planned out. A combat lesson here, a physical test there, run here, run there, eat for this amount of time, bentch for this amount of time, daven for this very limited amount of time. If you’re ever late by a single SECOND anywhere (quite literally – you have to start a stopwatch and match to the second of the commanders), you get punished, and any punishment is severe enough that you avoid it like a disease. 5 minutes to snack on this little cake that’s supposed to be shared among 20 soldiers, etc. etc. etc…at night you have your only “free hour” to do whatever you want, within the limits of the base…so you call mommy, and the stronger soldiers will at the beginning attempt to learn something while falling asleep, while everyone else will play a video game or shower or whatnot, because they have no strength WHATSOEVER to sit and learn after such an intensive day, and after waking up at whatever unGodly hour…

And then some days you have to wake up at 4 am — what about davening? you have to demand from the commander to give you davening time, because he might forget, that you’re not allowed to do anything until you daven once the sun comes up…but you’re int he middle of an exercise??? Not simple! And the soldiers don’t really have strength to daven anyways – it’ sjust an excuse to “relax a bit” because they’re so worn out….see where the problems start?

The Haredi battalions CLAIM to provide a learning hour once a day – but that’s nonsense…it doesn’t always happen, and most soldiers abuse it to put their heads down and sleep. Once or twice a week some rabbis come and give chizuk shiyurim….but do I need to expand on the efficacy (or lack thereof) of this, in the grander scheme of things?

So only 4 months this goes on? Nope! Now that the soldiers are worn dry of ruchniyus, they have 4 more months of advanced training! Certainly NOW they’ll start taking Yiddishkeit seriously again, right? Think again… Months of field work, having to fight for your rights as a Haredi, not many survive this long….Then another few months of getting adjusted to real-life combat duties, and you finally have SOME freedom to practice Yiddishkeit with some form of freedom – taking advantage of long hours of nothing in between activities. But even then, you will often have to wake up before dawn, or only come back to base at that time –you’re already half asleep, will you now daven with kavana? Learn something? Not a chance, after all these months of being starved spiritually…

What could be the solution? If the ARMY has a ruchniyusdig underlying spirit, and the commanders take it seriously, and they provide ample time for grouped shiyurim, a rabbi on base in the same capacity as the base psychologist – always available to guide any soldier needing spiritual assistance and to answer questions on demand – negelvasser that’s expected of every soldier in the morning in the same manner as being in uniform for morning call, some sort of system-backed agenda etc. etc…then it could EASILY work. But the army does not care about this! It’s all an EXCUSE to get Haredim to join and leave the yeshivos – it’s 100% a scam. There are very earnest rabbis out there who truly care to help Haredim be the best they can be, since if they’re already going to join, at least give them a proper system, and they help many bochurim become more frum as a result of the army – but they have to fight by their teeth against the army system in order to make it work, and yasher koach to them. But the army itself is not in and of itself a place for a yeshiva bochur, no way no how…

I’m literally joining this thursday (the reserves שלב ב) im curious to know what the story is so im going to find. personally all problem examples wouldnt apply to as a married man. i wouldnt go to vacation pool party without my wife etc

Ysiegel:

I’d be very interested in hearing the rest of your take.

Thank you

Bottom line – those who claim the damage need to show some real statistics. Go to your rosh yeshiva or a speaker against the army and ask them to open the books and count what happens with the yeshiva graduates.

I do not have hard numbers. But in my day to day, I interact with hundreds of men that went through the IDF.

By and large, people who went in strong in their yiddishkeit came out even stronger. I have a friend who went in minimally orthodox and came out going to the Mir. I had someone working by a neighbor who went into Gaza without a kippa, and came out shomer shabbos, wearing tefillin, keeping kosher, and is now married to a women, frum, young woman.

War can mess up anyone. Sometimes, that pain reflects itself in religious observance. Sometimes, it means sleepless nights and PTSD.

But to say that most people going into the IDF come out abandoning religion is just false. I have “secular” coworkers who went in with tattoos and eating shrimp. And they came out of Gaza wearing tzitzis and putting on tefillin. Some daven daily. I don’t ask about shabbos, but I know some are doing more in that regard as well.

The reverse can also be true, especially of young men on their own path. I know young men who were already in their own journey in 10, 11 ans 12th grade. This journey didn’t always involve traditional observance of hallacha – even boys from the “best” families. In general, those boys that started the IDF with a yeshivat hesder or mechina, come out very strong. Those that don’t have a firm grounding in their observance may not have a positive growth in terms of adherance to hallacha. It should be noted, that I don’t know of any young man that came out losing kashrus – the army serves kosher and people aren’t very exposed to treif. I do know some boys who came out with a TV, a few who weren’t keeping shabbos. Often, these young men were already on the fence about their shabbos observant before the IDF.

But I will tell you something amazing. Every single young man I meet who comes out of the army is on fire. They have a very real sense of what it means to be part of Am Yisrael. To put your life on the line to protect a fellow Jew. To dedicate years of your life to the community.

Going “off” in the IDF isn’t too common, and it’s nothing like a frum boy who goes off to secular college in the US and marries a shiksa. These young veterans are on fire with a love for their people. Chas V’Shalom, would we, who haven’t lived their experiences, who don’t understand their challenges, look down on them or speak ill of their putting their lives on the line.

jdb:
“But to say that most people going into the IDF come out abandoning religion is just false. ”

No, it’s the simple truth, of course. The Zionist army is expressly designed to change Jew and Judaism to Zionist and Zionism – and it has done exactly that, as we all know. Rav Steinman told a boy who came to him that no matter what framework he used, he would come out of that shmad army as “a total goy”.

I think simcha is up to something. Some articles about this inyan say that the soldiers can become, lo aleinu, non-charedi, rather than non-observant.

simcha613:
No, not at all.

Hallalu ovdei A”Z, vaHallalu ovdei A”Z.

As Rav Steinman told a boy who came to him, if you go to that army – in any framework – you will come out of that “a total goy”. He didn’t say “Religious Zionist idolater who puts on Tefillin each day”; he said “a total goy”.

This is, of course, what that army is expressly designed to do (turn Jews into hebrew goyim), and this is exactly what has, unfortunately happened, R”L L”A.

@hakatan
I can’t begin to understand how you can claim that anyone who adopts the shitif of zionism and lehavdil Torah is not “off the derech”.
Does that mean they are necessarily kofrim/minim/goyim? no certainly not, as both the Chazon Ish and the Stepiler have said about such a grave mistake for some people it’s done innocently enough that they simply need to hear to correct(ed) Truths and they will quickly realign themselves to doing rutzon Hashem and keeping the pure Torah. This is exactly the distinction the Rambam makes about so-called “tinikei shenishbu”, some – perhaps a small minority – will happily reject the sheker when exposed to truth.
(Others will continue to show their true colors in Coffee Room comments… )
In any case, those unfortunate sincere “tinikei shenishbu” are still “off the derech”, until they aren’t.

Simcha613: Do you envy the din vecheshbon of someone who can be Motzi la’az so publicly on the entire Masorti/Conservative/Reform tzibur, including rabbanim, dayanim, and talmidei chachanim?

Do you hope they are able to do teshuva before that time comes, but considering the amount of genuine mechila they will need, it’s will be a monumental achievement?

@simcha613
It is strange to me that you find what I (or @ujm or @hakatan) are saying is novel. Our stance is not just mainstream amongst the teachings of Gedolim, if you accept the “OTD” lines drawn by those gedolim, the stance is unanimous. In other words, if you accept any of the Steipler, the Chazon Ish, the Brisker Ruv, Rav Elchunon Wassermen, Rav Kotler, Rav Vosner, Rav Elyashiv, the Beis Yisroel, etc. as the “gold standard” of Torah mesorah, they have all said – some more gentle than others – that “dati leumi” is rooted in kefira and just another unfortunate form of moshiach sheker just like Reform, Yashkeh, etc.

This is why there is no specific rejection of Vayoel Moshe because the fundamentals are agreed upon by all “charedim” across our camps (despite the clear dissent of some to pursue questionable “hora’as shueh’s”).

I think I saw it from Maharam Shick zy”a that said that he wishes he had the power to separate out real yiddishkeit as a distinctly different religion than “reform” in the mind of the public and have its crooked followers at least stop claiming their heresy was “Jewish” as the previous Gedolim were successful to do under the rebellion that from Xtianity. Certainly, with the infringement of “dati leumi” kefira today, we are in even more dire straits, H”Y.

In any case, I don’t understand why you are surprised that I express the Torah from these many gedolim regarding this threat.

@simcha

@ujm

@katan

@somejew

Fyi. Steipler writes clearly, black on white, in karyane de’igreta vol 1 , that

it is assur to say lashon hara about dati leumi yehudim even if they [mistakenly] believe that the state is the forerunner of our ge’oula.

they are not ‘begeder yatsa miklal amitecha’

and are to be considered our brother in all halachik respects .
.
.
obviously they are not jews for j

obviously they are not OTD when fully observant

obviously they are not ‘geshmad’

.
they are only ‘mistaken’ in one aspect , but still our brothers with

a hiyuv de’oyraytah of ve’ahavtah leacha kamocha, towards them.
.
.

@yankel berel and @simcha613:
It is possible, according to some opinions, that one could believe in heresy yet not be considered an actual heretic. But the heresy in which they believe is still 100% heresy.

Regardless, that same Chazon Ish stated that “Dati Leumi” wine is yayin nesech.

Yankel Berel said:

“FYI. Steipler writes clearly, black on white, in Karyane De’igreta, volume 1,
that it is assur to say lashon hara about Dati Leumi Yehudim,
even if they [mistakenly] believe that the state is the forerunner of our ge’oula.

They are not ‘begeder yatsa miklal amitecha’
and are to be considered our brother in all halachik respects.”

__________________________________________
MY RESPONSE:

Thank you very much for your erudite quote.

When you are able to, please give us a more exact source:
chapter number, paragraph number, page number.

I thank you very much in advance.

Hakatan- I have never seen a modern day posek prohibit davening in a dl shul, including dl men for a minyan, eating at their homes, drinking their wine… Whatever some of the gedolim have said in the past, which was also likely a response to the militant anti religion Zionism which does not exist in the same way anymore… Minhag Yisroel has clearly paskined against it… And to claim that dl Jews are in the same category as christians, reform Jews, conservative Jews is a terrible aveira. You can think that one of the positions may be heretical, which I also disagree with vehemently, but that’s still much much different than labeling the entire tzibur as OTD and idolators.

The problem is that somejew and katan are employing a literal reading to divrei drush

they are mistaking divrei drush and divrei mussar as if they were halachot psukot arrived at kedarka shel torah

they are not

hence, their ‘totally off’ maskanot …
.