January 4, 2011 3:27 am at 3:27 am #593933
When did it come mandatory to tip a delivery boy? I ordered from a restaurant with FREE delivery, the total was $26.25 I gave the delivery boy $30 obviously with the intention to get change, he had the chutzpa to ask me “How much change do you want?” in other words “How much of a tip do you want to give me?” Since when did this become mandatory? The dictionary defines tip – voluntary extra payment. Store owners please teach your delivery boys the definition.January 4, 2011 4:44 am at 4:44 am #920224
Your answer should have been $3.75.January 4, 2011 4:46 am at 4:46 am #920225elikParticipant
serious??? if u can afford to order in ..you can afford a small tip
if a jew he needs the money…. if a non jew its a chillul hashem not to tip!January 4, 2011 5:02 am at 5:02 am #920226
When it comes to certain professions, it is expected that the workers will be tipped. Not to do it is Chilul HaShem and causing eiva.January 4, 2011 5:16 am at 5:16 am #920227miamigirl613Member
It’s ridiculous what this generation had come to. Adding on tips as part of your cost which used to be optional!!! When they demand a tip, that is when I will probably refuse because that is just wrong. Who ever made it that a tip is mandatory. A tip is usually because the service they’ve done was satisfying. I don’t mind giving a tip to a delivery man, but that is when it is my choice not his suggestion. But to demand and even add it on as part of the cost, I’m Sorry but they are not going to get a tip.January 4, 2011 5:27 am at 5:27 am #920228
elik – What does affording to order have to do with giving him a tip? Why just because I shouldn’t go hungry do I have to give him a tip? Please explain your connection! And besides I am not his employer, he is employed by the restaurant, and the owner pays him, when its FREE delivery it means – that i do NOT have to pay for deliver, rather the owner will pay the delivery boy!January 4, 2011 5:51 am at 5:51 am #920229
real brisker, you are 100% correct. I applaud you for not tipping such mechutzif who had the audacity to ASK for a tip!January 4, 2011 6:06 am at 6:06 am #920230Baruch BohmParticipant
Let me try to clarify this: a tip is never mandatory unless it is already in the bill! As for the “chutzpa” of the delivery boy to ask, the delivery boy is aware that many will not tip and as a result will attempt to evoke guilt so that they can receive a tip. But why you may ask??? Because you mistakenly believe that the delivery boy is not dependent on the tip. Yes he probably receives a pay check from the restaurant but it is very possible he would only take the job knowing he will also be tipped, the restaurant also pays the delivery boy an amount assuming most people will tip. In conclusion: it is a Chilul HaShem not to tip, and you still have every right not to tip and the delivery boy has every right to walk away thinking the “real-brisker” man that orders food is ………..January 4, 2011 6:19 am at 6:19 am #920231
Please understand that once upon a time people got paid a normal wage and tips were “extra” revenue. Today, employers take advantage and in some type of jobs employees depend on tips because their pay is very minimal. Employers practically guarantee that they can live off the tips. One such trade is waiters/waitresses and if you have noticed that many times the gratuities are automatically added to the bottom line of the bill. I was shocked to find out that they do not earn a wage or salary from the restaurant but are hired for tips only.January 4, 2011 6:23 am at 6:23 am #920232elikParticipant
no one said you have to tip i.ts not mandatory however like I said
if it’s a jew he needs the money…. if a non jew its a chillul hashem not to tip! I,m assuming he did his job and didnt tip over the bags of food and I assume from you ordering in that you are not from “aniyei eircha”January 4, 2011 6:49 am at 6:49 am #920233TheGoqParticipant
i always give at least a buck often twoJanuary 4, 2011 8:11 am at 8:11 am #920234havesomeseichelMember
Do you know what the word tip means? It really is an abbreviation: To Insure Promptness.
On the other hand…
Some sleep away camps do not pay staff as they assume they will get tips. Unfortunately, not all staff are in “tip positions” (waitress/counselor) and are never compensated for their time at all. I know someone who worked several jobs at a camp, assuming she would “split the pot” of all tips received, as she was lead to believe. She worked the whole summer, paid to do so, and received no money whatsoever. I know the girl was upset at the camp for a while as she felt taken advantage of.
But based on the definition of the word- it is not mandatory but is there to encourage the workers to work faster/better.January 4, 2011 8:18 am at 8:18 am #920235hadassaParticipant
there are certain professions where tips are considered part of
employees’ compensation. Waiters and waitresses, cab drivers, etc.
are examples of same. Employers pay them less as the tips are considered in the equation. People utilizing their services recognize this and know they are expected to tip. Delivery persons fall into this category too. I know of restaurants that don’t pay their delivery persons ANYTHING. On the contrary, the delivery person has to pay the restaurant UPFRONT the tab for the delivery and then gets to keep what he collects.January 4, 2011 11:42 am at 11:42 am #920236ChanieEParticipant
The minimum wage for certain employees is lower (by several dollars) than the usual minimum wage so although you are not the employer, you are expected to pay part of the worker’s wages directly, not just indirectly as customers do in most industries.
From the NYS Department of Labor:
Some industries make allowances for tips; thus they set a lower hourly rate. For example, food service workers may earn $4.65 per hour because their total compensation includes expected tips.January 4, 2011 1:08 pm at 1:08 pm #920237yeshivaguy1Participant
I have done deliveries in the past and I have to say that when I was tipped I really appreciated it. On the other hand I never expected it and I was genuinely surprised when I would get a tip. I was getting a very good salary for the work I was doing so I guess that has something to do with it.January 4, 2011 1:37 pm at 1:37 pm #920239
Tipping optional and it is always okay to not give a tip. Period.January 4, 2011 1:45 pm at 1:45 pm #920240
baruch bohm – A tip is optional, the definition is an extra payment of gruatitude. Now this means that its up to me to decide whether or not I would like to give him an extra payment. Thus being – A) He cannot expect it – why, because I do not owe it to him. The same way when you buy a lottery you dont expect to recive the jackbot, rather you would like to recive it. B) He cannot have a grudge, or in any way look down on those who do not tip him. why, because they do not owe it to him, its up to them if they want to give him a extra payment for his service. C) This that he took his job with the assumption that people will tip him does not make that people have to tip him. If he is not happy that someone does not tip him than its not the non tippers fault , rather its the delivery boys wrong assumption. D) And no it is not a chillul hashem if a yid does not tip him, why? because that is the definition of tip OPTIONAL.January 4, 2011 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #920241oomisParticipant
I don’t have time at the moment to read all the posts. Only someone who has LOTS of money to spend on takeout, would ask such a question. Have you any idea how LITTLE these guys are paid (as are waiters and waitresses as well)? They rely HEAVILY on tips, to supplement their income, especially when called out in all kinds of weather, to deliver YOUR food because you didn’t cook that night, or make lunch, or whatever. No, it is not mandatory to tip, and maybe it IS a little chutzpahdig when the tip is automatically added to a bill, but it has ALWAYS been menschlech to tip.
And before anyone argues that the store owners should pay better wages – yes, they should, but they don’t. So should the hapless delivery boy suffer because of that? He might not be able to get a better job at the moment, might be paying his way through school, or not be qualified for something better. Don’t be cheap for a couple of dollars. It makes such a chillul Hashem.
TMB,and R-B you both need to take a look at yourselves and do a cheshbon hanefesh, if you would begrudge a few extra dollars when you already spent money on yourself, to someone who is not living off your tax dollars on welfare, but earning a living, just because in a “nice” way (not demanding, as was implied), reminding you that a tip is hoped-for. Asking someone how much change to give back, is NOT the same as “how much of a tip should” he take out. I believe that anyone who thinks tips should not be given, should work for ONE week (including deliveries) at such a restaurant, and see how they feel after that experience.January 4, 2011 2:28 pm at 2:28 pm #920242deiyezoogerMember
if your a person that wants to tip and you have the money you may do so, nobody will tell you yes or no but if you dont want to tip than dont and by the way you take back that 3.75 change from him.January 4, 2011 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #920243
Anyone who expects a tip, doesn’t deserve a tip.January 4, 2011 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #920244
oomis – I did not say tips should not be given, all im saying is that they are 100% optional, and one cannot expect it. This that they rely on my tip does not in any way make it more of an achrayis on my part to give them.January 4, 2011 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #920245☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
I have heard that in situations where tipping is expected (such as waiters), it becomes required in halacha. Check with your posek for guidelines.January 4, 2011 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #920246
In today’s economy TIPS are not optional, tips are not only expected but relied on. Anyone who doesn’t TIP is just plain cheap and chuzpadik! YOU can no longer go back to the former definition of the word TIP because it is no longer defined as such. TIP or gratuity is no longer based on performance and it is no longer based on whether the customer chooses to be gracious about it. The server is DEPENDENT upon the TIPS s/he collects. That is usually his form of income and WE the customers/consumers NEED to be aware of this NEW phenomenon and get used to it.
RB, the next time you pick up the phone and ask for home delivery don’t be surprised when they tell you to come PICK UP your order instead. The delivery guy has every right to refuse to go back and deliver to your home since you were so stingy and cheap! You are not the only one calling in the snow, cold and rain. The restaurant does not have a group of delivery people, they are lucky to have the one willing to go out in bad weather to all those too lazy or too cold to make the trip to the store themselves. The delivery man will be happy to keep delivering to all those who treated him graciously, which I am sure are many especially in bad weather. Without a doubt he told the owner that he will not go back to your home. So whoever else lives in your house with you will have to suffer your bad manners as well.January 4, 2011 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #920247
elik – It will not be a chillul hashem because tip means optional.January 4, 2011 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #920249
Trying my best, it is important to remember that we don’t live in a bubble, and we do have to care about the impression we make.January 4, 2011 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #920250
Tip is expected from a “mentch”, for crying out loud.January 4, 2011 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #920251MDGParticipant
A tip is about as optional as Davening Maariv (which use be called optional but has been the accepted practice).
It may seem rude to ask for a tip, but it is a downright dumb thing to ask a Mohel for a tip.January 4, 2011 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #920252
MDG, thanks for he tip!January 4, 2011 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #920253
If tips are no longer optional, they MUST be listed and included in the price.January 4, 2011 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #920254havesomeseichelMember
cedarhurst- no, I resent going to a restaurant and they put “T.I.P. 16%” or whatever the number is. (I don’t go often and I can’t afford to. But once in a really blue moon it can be done).
They should not automatically add that on top of the price of the meal. either incorporate it into the price of the food (not as an extra right before calculating tax or whatever) or leave it up to my judgment! If the waiter was rude, inconsiderate ect he/she should not receive the same amt of T.I.P. We don’t ask for things every five minutes, but if someone needs ketchup, before dessert it would be appreciated! Good service gets a better tip.January 4, 2011 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #920255
aries – BTW I did tip him, I don’t know why you are assuming I didn’t – I was just worked up that he had the audacity to pretty much ASK for a tip. Now regarding if you say that tips are mandatory these days, I have no problem with it just stores should NOT advertise FREE delivery when its NOT. They should say delivery with tip. I don’t call something free if you are paying from the left pocket instead of the right pocket!January 4, 2011 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #920256Avram in MDParticipant
Joseph (in the guise of real-brisker, Trying my best, and Cedarhurst):
Saying “excuse me” or “sorry” if you smash into someone and knock them down is also totally optional, but in U.S. culture, one who doesn’t apologize is seen as a total boor. Tipping for certain services is also a part of U.S. culture, to the point that a non-tipper is seen in the same light. To NOT tip in this culture is to communicate that you are either highly dissatisfied with the service provided, or simply rude.
A Yid in golus should not do something that would cause others to view him as a total boor. If for nothing else, do it for that reason.
All that said, seriously, if you didn’t tip the poor deliveryman, I recommend not getting delivery from the same place again.
PS – In many places, the tips ARE included in the price if the party size is large (look at the small print on some menus).January 4, 2011 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #920257msseekerMember
RB, you’re making a CH right here in the CR. The poor guy didn’t exactly force you to tip, or even ask you outright for it. He merely hinted to it (or perhaps he needed help with his math?). If he came to your door shnorring for ???? would you be happier?January 4, 2011 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #920258Avram in MDParticipant
I ordered from a restaurant with FREE delivery, the total was $26.25 I gave the delivery boy $30 obviously with the intention to get change, he had the chutzpa to ask me “How much change do you want?”
Seeing that $3.75 is right about 15% of $26.25, I’d say the deliveryman was fairly gracious for not assuming that the $30 included the tip already.January 4, 2011 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #920259I can only tryMember
Rav Belsky says that tips are halachicly required for those whose entire income is from tips.
He also says someone who doesn’t tip where it’s the accepted custom to do so doesn’t have derech eretz.
(URL for Rav Belsky’s statements and complete verbatim Q&A posted below)
My personal take on tip expectation (based on my understanding that Rav Belsky holds that it’s dependent on whether the tip is customarily given or not):
Food delivery – yes, absolutely. This is true for pizza, restaurant food, take-out food or groceries.
Luggage drop-off and pick-up (for campers) – I tip. I assume there is more of an obligation to tip those who are hired than there is to tip those who work for themselves, but this is just my opinion.
Waiter – yes, absolutely. Bad service warrants withholding some/all of the tip.
Tomchei Shabbos and other tzedaka delivery and pick-up services. No.
Barber – yes. If the haircutter is also the owner, less so.
Dunkin’ Donuts (or other take-out places with a tip jar at the counter) – No. I’ll usually toss in twenty-five cents to a dollar, but I don’t consider it obligatory.
Car wash – No. Same as Dunkin’ Donuts.
Motel chambermaid – Yes. Less obligatory than other “yes”s, since this is not the major source of their income.
source for Rav Belsky’s statements: http://www.torah.org/learning/honesty/class34.html
QUESTION 46: TIPPING
At the end of the Passover vacation at the hotel, we were supposed to tip the waiters and busboys. The recommended amount was to pay the waiters $36 and the busboys $24 for each person at the table. The hotel doesn’t pay them anything, and these workers depended totally on tips for their pay. When I gave my tips, my waiter and busboy looked quite unhappy, and I asked why. They pointed out a few families that had paid very little. When I asked the head of one of these families, who had 11 adults at their table, he said they only paid a total of $75 to the busboy (the recommended fee was $264). He added, “I didn’t realize that tips were extra. I thought they were included in my bill. Besides, tips are always optional, that’s what the word ‘tip’ means.” When I suggested that he understood the arrangement incorrectly, he objected to my being involved at all. I said that there was a problem of chillul Hashem (desecration of G-d’s name), and that I had a requirement of tochacha (showing another person that they might be making a mistake). Did I have a requirement to tell them what I think?
I think that you should definitely tell them that they should tip. If they don’t want to give $264 and they want to round it out to $250 or $200 it’s one thing. But everyone knows that tips are not included, unless there’s a “gratuities included” sign. If it doesn’t say that, then tips are not included. And if it says, “optional tipping recommended”, then it means tips are not included. And if they were new to vacationing, and they didn’t know this, then it is high time they became educated and were told. There is a problem of chilul Hashem, and what you did was the right the thing to do.
There is a gemorah (section of the Talmud) about tipping in Mesechta Megillah (the book of the Talmud dealing with Purim) in a couple of places. It says that inn-keepers weren’t able to charge rent to an oleh regel (one who attends festivals in Jerusalem). Why? Because it is said that that all of Klal Yisroel owns the property in Jerusalem. Therefore, the inn-keepers couldn’t even charge rent. But it says that the proprietors should be tipped, and that they could take the tips even against the will of the tenants. And that sum could be quite a lot. The Talmud says that we can learn from that practice that it is the way of the world to leave a tip for a proprietor. The commentaries note that the Talmud says that it is the orach ara (accepted custom, literally ‘the way of the land’) to leave a tip. It’s derech erertz (the civil, proper thing to do. And if you don’t do it, you don’t have derech eretz, and you don’t follow the ways of the world.
Generally, a tip is voluntary. But the Talmud says that for those whose entire income will be coming from the tip – such as the inn-keepers in Jerusalem – the tip becomes mandatory. So you see that in such cases, giving a tip is an obligation. This is a Hallachah (Jewish law) that the Gemorah (Talmud) states clearly, not just a nice way to behave. When I said the fee could be rounded off, it’s simply because when there’s a larger group, very often the rate is cut a bit.
So to what extent should I urge them to tip?
Well, since it’s mandatory, and even in a case where it’s not mandatory, it’s certainly the way of the world and the proper thing to do. And there is the third problem, as you mentioned, that not giving a tip could be a chilul Hashem. Given the fact that all three could be violated here, I think you should definitely urge them to pay the tip. But on the other hand, don’t be mochiach (chastising) – don’t rebuke them too much, because you may end up having a personal problem with the people. They’ll wonder, “Who do you think you are?” Are you our mashgiach (supervisor)? :Perhaps the type of person who doesn’t tip would probably not spare you a generous counter-attack, telling you how he views it.
When I mentioned it to him, he told me not to get involved. So my real question is, should I give him tochacha (rebuke) again? The first time I mentioned it he just brushed me off, and it didn’t seem to get into his consciousness at all. I wondered whether the second attempt might work.
When it’s time to give tochacha a second time, you should say, “I understand. You’re right; it’s not my business. But I seem to remember hearing that giving tips is sometimes actually an obligation. In this case it is an obligation, because the person doesn’t make his living other than from tips. And since this may be so, maybe you should ask a question to your rov.”
There are a couple of ways to make tochacha more effective. One is to say, “I think I remember having heard –“, to create some kind of hesitancy, even if you’re absolutely certain. Mipnei darkei shalom (for the sake of having peace) – because you’re trying to make peace, it’s justified to twist the truth a little bit, and you could definitely say, “I think I remember – I’m not certain – I’m almost certain.” Secondly, a person who is being mochiach (chastising) somebody else should recommend that they ask a sheiloh (questions) because it’s definitely something that can’t be decided on one’s own.January 4, 2011 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #920260SacrilegeMember
(I didnt read through all the posts so I hope I’m not repeating)
These are the people who get offended when Jews are called cheap!
Delivery is a convenience, if for whatever reason you cannot make it to the store and the store offers free delivery that is on the store NOT on the delivery person. Show some mentschlichkeit and some hakoras hatov and give the guy/gal a tip!
Where is that pet peeve thread…?January 4, 2011 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #920261
RB, my apologies, from your post it sounded like you did not tip, and most people seemed to assume that you didn’t. The delivery man did ask the appropriate question which was how much change would you like. HE could have assumed that you were giving him the entire amount as a tip, which he didn’t.
As far as claiming FREE DELIVERY is concerned….it is still considered FREE delivery since the STORE does not charge the fee, it is totally up to you how much YOU decide to tip. $3.50 is not a big tip on a $50 order. It would be a very nice tip on a $20 order. If you regularly receive a delivery from this store and it is holiday time you might have given this regular delivery guy a $20 tip. So it is FREE as far as the store is concerned since they are not receiving the payment, it is totally up to the customer how much he chooses to tip.
Our grocery stores do not advertise FREE DELIVERY and does charge a $6 or $7 fee for delivery. This is specifically to pay the driver. I don’t feel it is necessary to tip the delivery man because I know that I had already done so at the register. When I did have FREE DELIVERY, I used to leave a tip with the cashier knowing that I would not be at home when the delivery was made. When I took groceries home with me and had someone help me to the car, I tipped him as well and if it was raining or snowing I tipped him very handsomely.January 4, 2011 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #920262
ICOT – How can you ever withhold some or all of tip to a waiter, which you said you do, based on your own comment?January 4, 2011 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #920263
Avrom, the tip for a delivery boy is certainly NOT 15%. He is not a waiter.January 4, 2011 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #920264
Aries, Either you do have to tip or you dont have to tip. It depends on what the standard customary thing is. Whether you paid for the delivery is irrelevant whether you must tip. Either always or never.January 4, 2011 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #920265WolfishMusingsParticipant
ICOT – How can you ever withhold some or all of tip to a waiter, which you said you do, based on your own comment?
I’m not ICOT, but if I may take a stab at it…
The whole concept of a tip is based on social convention. In places where it is customary to tip, one should (perhaps is required to) tip for the service provided. If you’re in an area of the world where tipping is unheard of, you do not have to tip.
A part of that social convention is that the amount of the tip is based on the quality of the service. Anyone who receives tips understands that this is the way it is (or should be). As such, since it is a part of the same convention by which tips exist in the first place, I don’t see a problem with withholding a portion of the tip when the service is bad.
The WolfJanuary 4, 2011 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #920266
When it comes to Pesach hotels, this is such a touchy topic. The costs are so high that people try to nickel and dime even by squeezing as many kids into one room as they possibly can even against hotel and fire code regulations. The Group NEVER tells the guests that tipping is mandatory and they would never include it int he bill because they want to look like they are reasonably priced. THIS is the biggest chilul Hashem since it is they who are the biggest perpetrators of the scam. PEOPLE in general are NOT aware that hotel staff are NOT paid a wage and are reliant on the tips they make. The groups that run these programs should be obligated by law and by halacha to tell their guests or include it in the bill to avoid making a chilul Hashem. I think Kashrus organizations should discuss this and include this item in their contract when giving a hechsher on these hotels. They are the only ones that can control this issue because they are the only ones that have any control what-so-ever over the Pesach programs.
They should insist that each contract either has the tips included in the bill or a line that says that TIPS are mandatory and not optional. And that includes TIPS to the counselors who are not getting paid much either.January 4, 2011 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #920267winny1Participant
RB, I was a delivery person for many years and never thought a tip was mandatory. But, I looked forward to getting one as all people in that line of work do. BTW, I use the term delivery person because I was not a boy at that time. I was in my thirties, barely making ends meet working as an accountant, paying 3 yeshiva tuitions and needing extra parnassa.
Many people are busy with other things in their life when the delivery person shows up and often neglect to think of tipping. I never felt angry if I wasn’t tipped because it is not mandatory,but I was definately disappointed.
After being in that situation myself I asked my wife to be certain to always give a tip because it is the mentchlich thing to do.January 4, 2011 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #920268
It is not the customary thing that you must tip a delivery man.January 4, 2011 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #920269SacrilegeMember
For people w basic social graces it is.January 4, 2011 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #920270WolfishMusingsParticipant
It is not the customary thing that you must tip a delivery man.
I guess not in your part of Cedarhurst. In my neighborhood, it is. We tip the delivery guy EVERY time.
The WolfJanuary 4, 2011 7:17 pm at 7:17 pm #920271
avram in md – Just because someone agrees with me it doesn’t make me him!January 4, 2011 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #920272
msseeker – No, he should have said ok so your change is $3.25, and I would have said to keep it.January 4, 2011 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #920273
If tips these days are mandatory, it is still false advertisement to say FREE delivery.January 4, 2011 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #920274ProfessionalMember
many workers get no wage, or below minimum, and business owner promise them they will be paid tips instead, so tipping is a part of our culture, Rabbi Belsky’s note posted is very helpful.
I know a frum head counselor in a hotel program, who was promised it would be tips only, but they will be generous, she worked hard for entire Yom Tov, and a mother of 5 kids (some are special ed, where it was not easy to cater for them for so many hours) said hotel owner told her tipping was optional, so he tried to be nice to guests, and the worker, a frum person, was taken advantage of.
tzaar of someone who is not paid/ underpaid, and looking forward to be made whole, as misrepresnted, is not a small thing.
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