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must you tip your waiter in camp ?
I think the waiters sometimes work harder than the counselors and it’s very important to tip them. They’re the ones who get up early to set the table for breakfast and stay late after supper to clean up. Not only that but during the meal every five minutes they’re getting up to serve you. In the camp that I go to counselors are practically expected to laze around in bed all day.
The waiters work extremely hard and even if your son/daughter didn’t think the waiter was good he/she still worked hard maybe not as hard as everyone else and some sort of tip should be given. In some camps tips are mandatory.
KIDS cannot and should not determine whether or not a waiter (or counselor) worked “hard enough” to deserve a tip. They are not good judges of what is work and what is not, unless they see that waiter sitting down all day while everyone else picks up the slack.
I was never a waiter in camp but when I worked in a camp I got up early to daven with the waiters (with all the distractions that go on with making sure your young campers are sitting, behaving and davening during davening I thought I could have more kavannah if I daven earlier with the waiters).
These individuals have to get up earlier than other staff members, set up and clean up after three meals a day and they only get noticed if something goes wrong.
Waiters definitely deserve a tip.
Yes, you should tip your son[s waiter. He is underpaid, and in some cases it used to be they were not paid at all (“But you’re having a free summer in the mountains!”). The tips WERE the salary.
I believe that any organization that sells goods or services should have an obligation at the first time they advertise or disclose prices to also advise what amounts of tips are expected.
Moving in this direction will probably need to be done at the national level.
This will avoid consumers and workers from being “ripped off”.
I did visit a place, Italy where prices always included all taxes and “service charges”.
I believe workers and consumers are happier there and businesses can still make a profit since all the competitors have to follow the same practices.
Josh31-
At a restaurant with my wife recently we were showed a table and a waitress came to take our order, that was the last time we saw her. We then had to wash the silverware ourselves since it was dirty. A different waiter brought us our food, we had to get up ourselves to get more water, ask someone to remove our plates when we were done, ask for the dessert menu and get the bill. “At least we saved some money because we don’t have to tip” joked my wife.
“Nope”, I responded, “they are one step ahead of us, they included an 18% tip in the bill”.
Had the tip not been included automatically we would have received different service.
(We still go back since we like the food. On our last visit the waiter tried to remember our order and got it all wrong, but the food was good anyway.)
I waitered in my camp days, and yes it is very hard work, much deserving of a tip (maybe not what the letter from camp suggests, but at a minimum $20 per trip, even for a slowpoke)
Same answer as given on the “camps charging a youth-core processing fee” even though they are not allowed to.
They can get away with it, so they do.
In some camps the waiters pay 60% of what a regular campers tuition is because they have to be fed, they go on trips, they go out in the mountains (shop-rite, bowling) etc… It all costs money for the camp!
Perhaps. But they don’t charge the senior staff (who mostly come with kids and a spouse), and costs a whole lot more to feed them.
Why not? Becuase senior staff would never stand for it, and teenagers (and by default, their parents) are hostages.
Don’t like it, but its the system we made, so I gotta live with it.
-Josh31-
“I believe that any organization that sells goods or services should have an obligation at the first time they advertise or disclose prices to also advise what amounts of tips are expected.”
Restaurants are required to state that gratuity is included. This must be stated on the menus if not then you are not required to pay the gratuity. Basicly, it must be in print either on the menu or on a sign posted in the establishment.
You should tip them just like you tip counselors. Its just proper and shows appreciation. The boy slaved away so your son can eat 3 meals a day. The waiters work VERY hard and are the most under-appreciated people in camp.
I cant tell you what to do with your money but realize that if you didnt tip in a restaurant the waiter would not forget you and the next time you came to that restaurant hed make sure something nasty ended up in your food.
Its just low class not to top. Especially a camp waiter who slaves away 3x a day every day of the summer for your child.
You are Karging out on $35-$40? Seriously think about it. The tip in some fancy restaurants are almost that for one meal!
The following is cut-and-pasted from Torah.org
The URL is http://torah.org/learning/honesty/class34.html
QUESTION 46: TIPPING
At the end of the Passover vacation at the hotel, we were supposed to tip the waiters and busboys. The recommended amount was to pay the waiters $36 and the busboys $24 for each person at the table. The hotel doesn’t pay them anything, and these workers depended totally on tips for their pay. When I gave my tips, my waiter and busboy looked quite unhappy, and I asked why. They pointed out a few families that had paid very little. When I asked the head of one of these families, who had 11 adults at their table, he said they only paid a total of $75 to the busboy (the recommended fee was $264). He added, “I didn’t realize that tips were extra. I thought they were included in my bill. Besides, tips are always optional, that’s what the word ‘tip’ means.” When I suggested that he understood the arrangement incorrectly, he objected to my being involved at all. I said that there was a problem of chillul Hashem (desecration of G-d’s name), and that I had a requirement of tochacha (showing another person that they might be making a mistake). Did I have a requirement to tell them what I think?
RABBI BELSKY
I think that you should definitely tell them that they should tip. If they don’t want to give $264 and they want to round it out to $250 or $200 it’s one thing. But everyone knows that tips are not included, unless there’s a “gratuities included” sign. If it doesn’t say that, then tips are not included. And if it says, “optional tipping recommended”, then it means tips are not included. And if they were new to vacationing, and they didn’t know this, then it is high time they became educated and were told. There is a problem of chilul Hashem, and what you did was the right the thing to do.
There is a gemorah (section of the Talmud) about tipping in Mesechta Megillah (the book of the Talmud dealing with Purim) in a couple of places. It says that inn-keepers weren’t able to charge rent to an oleh regel (one who attends festivals in Jerusalem). Why? Because it is said that that all of Klal Yisroel owns the property in Jerusalem. Therefore, the inn-keepers couldn’t even charge rent. But it says that the proprietors should be tipped, and that they could take the tips even against the will of the tenants. And that sum could be quite a lot. The Talmud says that we can learn from that practice that it is the way of the world to leave a tip for a proprietor. The commentaries note that the Talmud says that it is the orach ara (accepted custom, literally ‘the way of the land’) to leave a tip. It’s derech erertz (the civil, proper thing to do. And if you don’t do it, you don’t have derech eretz, and you don’t follow the ways of the world.
Generally, a tip is voluntary. But the Talmud says that for those whose entire income will be coming from the tip – such as the inn-keepers in Jerusalem – the tip becomes mandatory. So you see that in such cases, giving a tip is an obligation. This is a Hallachah (Jewish law) that the Gemorah (Talmud) states clearly, not just a nice way to behave. When I said the fee could be rounded off, it’s simply because when there’s a larger group, very often the rate is cut a bit.
QUESTIONER
So to what extent should I urge them to tip?
RABBI BELSKY
Well, since it’s mandatory, and even in a case where it’s not mandatory, it’s certainly the way of the world and the proper thing to do. And there is the third problem, as you mentioned, that not giving a tip could be a chilul Hashem. Given the fact that all three could be violated here, I think you should definitely urge them to pay the tip. But on the other hand, don’t be mochiach (chastising) – don’t rebuke them too much, because you may end up having a personal problem with the people. They’ll wonder, “Who do you think you are?” Are you our mashgiach (supervisor)? :Perhaps the type of person who doesn’t tip would probably not spare you a generous counter-attack, telling you how he views it.
QUESTIONER
When I mentioned it to him, he told me not to get involved. So my real question is, should I give him tochacha (rebuke) again? The first time I mentioned it he just brushed me off, and it didn’t seem to get into his consciousness at all. I wondered whether the second attempt might work.
RABBI BELSKY
When it’s time to give tochacha a second time, you should say, “I understand. You’re right; it’s not my business. But I seem to remember hearing that giving tips is sometimes actually an obligation. In this case it is an obligation, because the person doesn’t make his living other than from tips. And since this may be so, maybe you should ask a question to your rov.”
There are a couple of ways to make tochacha more effective. One is to say, “I think I remember having heard –“, to create some kind of hesitancy, even if you’re absolutely certain. Mipnei darkei shalom (for the sake of having peace) – because you’re trying to make peace, it’s justified to twist the truth a little bit, and you could definitely say, “I think I remember – I’m not certain – I’m almost certain.” Secondly, a person who is being mochiach (chastising) somebody else should recommend that they ask a sheiloh (questions) because it’s definitely something that can’t be decided on one’s own.
Camps dont pay because they want you to pay. If camps paid them you would be charged more to send your son to camp. Additionally this way they offer the parents an opportunity to personally show appreciation to their sons counselors, waiters and Rabbeim. The tip system also motivates people to do a better job so they get a bigger tip. I hope this helps.
“Besides, tips are always optional, that’s what the word ‘tip’ means.”
I was always taught that TIPS is an acronym for
T o
I nsure
P rompt
S ervice
Tipping is always a sensitive issue. Camp tipping is very important especially showing and teaching kids hakaros hatov. Not everyone pays the same camp fees depending on the family income and scholarship, etc. Many kids are children of Rebbeim, etc. So tipping is separate from camp fees and parents should not forget about the waiters or the Lifeguards which are usually forgotten. And that goes especially for day camps. Everyone forgets about the Lifeguards who do a very important job for all of us and it is not easy considering how many kids are at a pool or lake at one time.
As far as Pesach tipping is concerned….people feel that they are paying way too much for Pesach as it is and yet they still go. It is not fair that caterers and hotels hire wait staff and don’t pay them. THEY know good and well that inzerer yiddin don’t feel like shelling out much at the end of the chag and they should either collect it upfront in taxes and fees, or include it in the price of Pesach and “PAY” the staff themselves. They probably do this so they don’t have to withhold taxes and pay all sorts of insurance, workers comp, social security and other taxes for them. But that is totally unfair to the staff and a chilul Hashem.
As far as wait staff in a restaurant, it goes both ways, the restaurants do not pay the wait staff and so if they include it in the bill as a 18 percent gratuity it makes it easier, but if the wait staff does not do a good job you should be able to remove it and let the owner or manager know why. YOU shouldn’t be forced to pay it if it isn’t warranted. And there are very unscrupulous owners who don’t give the staff the 18 percent collected anyway. Of course if you received excellent service you can add to the tip because that is all they get.
For the thread about tipping Counselor and Junior Counselors (JCs) goto http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/tipping-counselors
Your original question was “Must you tip your waiter in camp?’
In all honesty it’s hard to say that you “must” do anything.
Then you procede to ask “why” a few times.
If your question is why doesnt the camp pay them,
then the answer may be because, firstly it has been the accepted thing for many years that the waiters do not get paid. The second reason may be because the camp feels that they are young and do not really have another choice.
They are usually too old to be campers and too young to be counselors. Many camps even charge the waiters to come to camp.
The job of the waiter is in fact alot of work.
If your question is “why” do they deserve it, it is because they are providing a service for you.
Same as the delivery man, or the roomservice in a hotel, or the waiter in a restaurant.
They are up early and spend the majority of the day servicing the children, and I must say, as someone who spent many a summer in staff positions, many staff members take the “tip” issue very seriously.
The staff understands that not everyone can afford the full amount but it’s simply Hakarat HaTov and will be happy even with a modest tip.
The staff do not understand how some parents can spend thousands of dollars on camp but still hold back the tip which is a fraction of the whole camp expense.
Sometimes we see campers with a seemingly endless canteen account but they still cannot give a tip to the staff members who devote most of his day for a month or two straight servicing them.
Also the tip gives the waiter an incentive to service the children. If a parent tips the waiter, it gives the waiter a feeling that he is being appreciated, and it makes the waiter want to service the kids more, but if the waiter does not get tipped than subconsiously the waiter says, “why am I working so hard if I am not being appreciated?”.
If a parent cannot afford the full amount, the staff member generally understands the situation and will appreciate whatever is affordable.
But when a staff member who is dealing with your son the entire summer, and sees him wearing expensive clothing and hears him talking about costly vacations and sees him spending alot of “canteen” money, and when the parents come on visiting day, they show up in an expensive new car, dressed in designer clothing and wearing $300 shoes does not get tipped, it can come across as a surprise and an insult.
As a side point, many staff members talk with each other about the tips that they receive and from whom they are received them.
If you are known amongst the staff to be a tipper than there is a possibility that subconciously they will treat your child better.
One summer back when I used to be a counselor, I worked in a very expensive camp. At the end of the summer it was interesting to see how some of the campers who needed very little attention, and were the easiest to deal with, sent a beautiful letter and nice tip while some of the more difficult campers sent nothing.
I must say that in a way I was surprised both ways. I was surprised that the parents of a camper who required very little attention and left camp a few weeks early sent a beautiful letter and a nice tip. I felt almost like I did not deserve it. I was also surprised that the parents of some kids who were a little more difficult, and needed more attention, sent nothing.
Looking at it now, things add up perfectly, THE FRUIT DOES NOT FALL FAR FROM THE TREE Some children are appreciative, and easy to deal with because they are brought up that way. (their parents tip and the kids don’t give a hard time) Some parents are not appreciative and the message is passed onto the kids. (the parents do not tip, the kids are hard to deal with)
While I do know that some campers were sponsored, an some got tuition breaks, How can someone spend between $4,000 and $5,500 on tuition and not have the courtesy to tip is difficult for me to understand.
I sincerely hope that this posting put you at ease with the tip situation.
Remember, weather you give a modest tip, a thoughtful tip, or a generous tip it’s the thought that counts and it is beautiful to be Makir Tov to the people who ensured that your child had a fantastic summer.
May we all be Zoche to have a safe and healthy summer of growth, in the true spirit of Torah and Mitzvot.
P.S. If you really think that the camps should pay them, and there is no other way, I am sure you can work out a deal with the camp director so they can charge you a little more tuition, (5% of 3,000 is 150) and they can divide the money amongst the people that deserve to be tipped.like the Counselor, JC, Waiter, CIT, Learning Rebbe, Lifeguard, etc.
Or if it makes you more comfortable, you can look at it as though the camp is giving you a 5% discount so you can put that money toward tips.
ES WHY
If you are known amongst the staff to be a tipper than there is a possibility that subconciously they will treat your child better.
That may be true, however, I don’t think that is proper. Your job is to take care of every camper. Regardless of the tip.
I know that it is hard for some parents to come up with the extra cash on visiting day to tip all the counselors, waiters, Rebbeim, etc. But that is still no excuse not to show hakaros hatov and also not to teach your child to show hakaros hatov. No one needs to know what is in the envelope especially not the child. If you can’t afford a decent tip or no tip at all it does not remove your obligation of hakaros hatov and appreciation. Please write a note explaining your situation but thank the staff person and tell him how much he/she means to your child and how much you appreciate how hard they work and how much they contribute to the overall camp experience.
Bump. I worked as a counselor in a day camp. The parents on the second to last day of day camp were given a letter letting them know that the only wages we as counselors would be getting is whatever tips they send in. Only half of the kids gave anything at all. I appreciated the $5 and a card and I think I may still have the card somewhere. Some people gave checks which was nice as a thought but I didn’t have a bank account yet so it made things slightly complicated (I was a young teenager at the time). My campers weren’t particularly wealthy so I didn’t expect a lot but I would have liked a letter even if they couldn’t include any money along with it. One parent actually did that (didn’t say they had no money; the mother just wrote that she appreciated all I did for her daughter that summer) and I thought it was really nice.
I worked as a waiter in a learning camp when I was youinger. The camp charged me for the summer, albeit a reduced fee – however, the only way I was able to cover even that reduced fee was using the $$$ I received in tips – and the camp knew this. The camp also put out that Rav Yakov ZT”L had said that not tipping the waiter in camp was a form of Gezel, as the tip was expected at the time the work was done.
I can truly say that to this day, decades later, I can still recall several individuals who did not tip – as well as several specific individuals who were particularly generous. One thing that really sticks in my mind is one of my tables where one of the guys had worked as a waiter himself a few years earlier. That table in particular was generous in tipping, and the former waiter came over to me to ask me to let him know if anyone there had not tipped, as he’d approach them about it – he said that since he’d been in that position hiself previously, he knew how hard we worked and how much it stung when no tip was given.
I can say that even now, years later, I remain sensitive to those who rely on tips, and tend to tip more generously than most (even when it was a financial strain), since I know how much it means to them.
an Israeli Yid
In 1973 I was asst. director of a Jewish Sleep away camp in New England. Tipping had been such a problem that effective the 1974 season, we raised tuition 10% and raised salaries 10% and did away with tipping.
On visiting and pickup days, large signs were posted to remind parents of the no tipping policy.
It lasted for about 30 years. Now they don’t have waiters and allow tippingTo ty
1. When waiters file income tax return, they must to report tips (see IRS regulation). It telling me, that tips are legal in USA
2. Waters have pretty low hourly rate because tips working as a commissions for them.
What make you think that tipping barber/taxi driver and so on is OK? They also paid by place they workcv it’s very rare that a waiter in camp makes enough, to have to file taxes. If camp withholds for income taxes, then the waiter should file for the refund. But, yes tips are income. Since they get tipped in cash, I doubt camps ever put it on the W-2.
anisraeliyid – your post makes me feel awful. I worked in camp when younger and we were all paid. Our wages were lower than low but those were the wages we agreed to when we took the job. When my kids were camp age and people mentioned tipping I thought it was pure chutzpah. Tipping implies money beyond the salary. Which would be fine in a restaurant. But not camp. Camps charge $1600 to $2500 for 3 plus weeks (not 4 anymore). That is not a small number to any middle class parent and I don’t have anything close to that to spend on just one kid. But at a certain age it is imperative that they be out of the city in the summer.
After finding the least expensive camp, and agreeing to drive 10 hours to avoid a plane ticket I can’t afford, we proceeded to purchase excessive amounts of clothing. Both clothing that he could benefit from anyway (more underwear and socks), and clothes he will never touch outside of camp. Do you have any idea how much this can cost a family for just one child? Then camp is coming to an end and we receive an envelope for tips. Not an envelope for the waiter, 7 envelopes! 2 waiters, 2 counselors, one learning rebbe, one shiur rebbe, and the night seder rebbe. And then the recommendations for $40-$50 dollars each. There was no way we could come up with money like that after all of the other expenses, and for you to say that it was my achrayus, not the camps, and not your own (!) is unfair. If the camp believes you deserve wages, then they should pay them. Charging thousands for 3 weeks is no discount that would justify tacking on an extra $250 plus at the end. And if you believe you need a salary, then you should be working a job that pays one.
One year I held the envelopes until Chanuka and used money I got from relatives to pay the tips with a note of apology. The idea that there are waiters out there who remember years later which parents didn’t tip (as you stated) is humiliating. And sadder than that is the idea that you don’t see what is wrong with this system.
I cannot see any excuse for charging great sums for camp and then asking us to pay your staff (who I DO agree deserve plenty!) I also can’t understand the oblivious attitude of people who don’t appear to have a clue what life is REALLY like for most of the frum population.
Syag – a couple of points:
1. This was a learning camp, with the campers all age 13/14 and up. There were no counselers, and hte Rabei’im were not tipped. The waiter was the only one who was tipped ($30 for half a summer, $50 for the full summer).
2. The cost of this camp was significantly less than most, as they were far from a “luxury” camp – the focus really was on the learning.
3. The camp clearly included mention of the tips in the information package that was sent to campers/parents before the summer. This was not a surprise sprung on campers at the last minute.
4. There were clearly some campers who had no ability to tip at all, or who were only able to tip a minimal amount (I recall one person giving me $5 for the full summer). I can not have a ta’ana against someone like that – and in fact, I was told that I could count the tip that I “should have” received from such a person against my ma’aser obligation.
5. It is so common to need to tip staff that it should be taken into account in determining your budget for camp.
6. I have more than a clue as to what life is like for “most of the Frum population”. I was working at camp as I otherwise could not go – waiters at that camp were essentially regular campers with a job on the side. We attended Seder and Shiurim with everyone, but had to come a bit late/leave a bit early to set up and clean up the dining room, had much less free time, and had to bolt down our meals so that we could do our jobs properly – but that was something we did it so that we could be in a proper learning environment for the summer.
So while I sympathize with you to an extent, there is another side to the story…
an Israeli Yid
Your sympathy is not necessary. I was telling you thst your complaints display a lack of understanding.
1. Yes, this was also a learning camp. 7 envelopes.
2.same (possibly same camp)
3.there is a difference between expecting to tip – translation being to slip a bit of extra money – to the waiter, and getting a list of recipients with expected amounts totaling hundreds.
5. You have a great sense of humor
6. If you truly knew how we/they live, you wouldn’t have made most of your other comments.
One of my sons also went as a waiter because we could not afford for him to be a camper. He went knowing there was no salary. If his intent was to earn money he wouldn’t have taken the job. Every penny he received was a gift. Not an expectation. It is your employers job to pay your salady. Camps have no business requiring fees that take us all year to pay off, and expect us to pay their staff as well. On top of all the other purchases we have to make just to send them it is an unreasonable request. And putting it in the brochure dodsnt make it more reasonable.Syag – you clearly have a different view, and are not going to be convinced. I continue to believe you are incorrect, particularly when (a) the camp says up front that it is expected to tip the waiters amount X, and (b) the waiters are not only not paid by the camp, they are actually charged for the privilege of working there, with the expectation that the tips received will cover that amount. I suppose the camp could have just raised the fee by $50 per camper and then not charged the waiters, but would that really put parents in a different place? This way, there is an incentive for the waiters to provide good service, and there will always be some individuals who tip more than the recommended amount – so there is an upside for the waiters as well.
As to your comment that I don’t know how you live – you are correct. You also don’t know how I live now, and under what circumstances I grew up – so your comment is really out of line. We are two anonymous individuals on the internet commenting on a general issue, and we should make sure to convey our views logically and respectfully.
an Israeli Yid
As to your comment that I don’t know how you live – you are correct. You also don’t know how I live now, and under what circumstances I grew up – so your comment is really out of line. We are two anonymous individuals on the internet commenting on a general issue, and we should make sure to convey our views logically and respectfully.
Yes, a different view. Which does not make me incorrect, that is what is so wonderful about having conversations.
I don’t believe that the brochure stated the tipping amounts or the number of people involved and even if they did, that would not make it affordable. My point to you was the concept that staff is voluntary and then have expectations to be tipped as a salary by parents who may have already shelled out beyond their means.I also had no problem paying a small fee for my son to have the privilege, as you say, of working as a waiter. I did it myself. It’s a fun but grueling summer with friends, and it is what it is. If I wanted a paid position, I should have looked for one. To add in this last post that the expectation is that the tips would cover it, that should be a hope, not an expectation (my view).
As far as charging an extra $50 for camp etc. It doesn’t really work that way. Camps are strapped too. They don’t have the figures worked out to the dollar so that the $50 this way comes from that. They have huge budgets and charge whatever they can expect to get parents to pay (as in whatever the going rate is) I would doubt their income matches their output but I don’t see any excuse for making salaries outside of their budget.
As far as my comment being out of line – I don’t agree (my view). If you were talking about the system and how you love or hate it I would have never have commented at all. But you made a comment above about the families who don’t tip, who you’ve kept in your mind years later. That, to me (my view again) is insensitive toward many parents, and an added dig to those out there who just plain couldn’t. Telling you you have misjudged is not out of line. It was a request for understanding. And potentially a plea for mechila to many already hurting parents.
respectfully, syag
Privilege of working as a waiter?
*headscratchingemoji*
Sorry, Syag – you were and continue to be out of line in your assumptions about me. There was a clearly-implied assumption about my “lack of sensitivity” to others due to not understanding how you or ohters live. I resent your assumptions, and your inability to understand this makes continuing this conversation pointless.
I will therefore not respond to your other points – though there are answers to them.
an Israeli Yid
Ummm what assumptions exactly? I have no clue who you are and don’t claim to have any assumptions about you. I stated my opinion and personal view of your comments. I wrote that I was giving my opinion and personal view of your comments. I pointed out exactly which things you said that led me to my opinions, and you are more than welcome to oppose the view. So what is wrong with that? Do you resent the fact that you said you still remember who didn’t tip you, or are you resenting the fact that it made me feel like two cents?
Personally I was not aware that opposing your views was a deterrent to having a conversation, I actually think that is a silly excuse not to respond to someone. Especially when your grounds for upset are the assumption that I am making assumptions.
I am sorry you are having trouble with this. You seem offended for some reason (my view and assumption) and for that I apologize.I just got arrested by a female cop…oops wrong thread. NM
😂😂🤣🤣
to 1
My point was that tips are legal and it is additional income for waiters who getting a small salary. If we tip a waiter in restaurant, we need to tip waiter in a camp as well
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