February 22, 2009 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #589443
Do you think people should get drunk on Purim or not? Do you think underage bochurim should get drunk on Purim? Do you think its ok to drink at night also as opposed to only by the seuda?
I think people should get drunk but only if they act like a yid and not a goy when they are drunk. I also think its ok for underage bochurim to drink as long they act like a yid is supposed to act. Also, i think its ok for people to drink at night because the whole Purim your supposed to be Misamaech so why not, as long as you know your going to wake up for Megilla.February 22, 2009 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #674473
flatbush: Agreed.February 22, 2009 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #674474
How exactly does a drunk yid act? Just remember, various counties have laws under which you can be prosecuted for underaged intoxication. Teenagers are not mature enough to know when to stop drinking.February 22, 2009 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #674475
I have no problem with a teenage boy drinking on Purim in in parent’s presence, and I probably will allow my sons to drink, even to inebriation when they get old enough. I plan however on supervising it. But there is no way a yeshiva can truly vouchsafe the saftey of a bunch of rowdy drunken boys. All that’s needed is for one boy to be sick while asleep on his back, for a fatality to occur. Moreover, many boys go out to schnor while drunk, and the risk of traffic accidents is high.
Personally, I follow the Rema’s recomondation on Purim.February 22, 2009 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #674476
Under 21 should DEFF not!!!
Don’t drink like a physco. This whole drunk buisness makes me uneasy about purimFebruary 22, 2009 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #674477
“I think people should get drunk but only if they act like a yid and not a goy when they are drunk”
Basically you are saying that you think people should get drunk but only if they don’t get drunk…February 22, 2009 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #674478
Its me, syrian. Lost my password. Anyway, flatbush WHY do u think underage buchurim should drink?? Its ILLEGAL why make a chilul Hashem??? The ones who are underage are the ones who get in trouble….they should NOT be drinking and no one should encourage them to eitherFebruary 22, 2009 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #674479
“I think people should get drunk but only if they act like a yid and not a goy when they are drunk”
Basically you are saying that you think people should get drunk but only if they don’t get drunk… <<
How a drunk acts is a great barometer for who he/she TRULY is. I have seen drunks who learn and give brachos. It is quite sad that you only know of people that have their inner goy come out when they are drunkFebruary 22, 2009 9:40 pm at 9:40 pm #674480
i think the bigger issue is, people don’t know their drinking limit!!! the younger guys have to realize that, they can’t compete with the older bochrim who are more used to drinking!!!February 22, 2009 9:46 pm at 9:46 pm #674481
an open bookParticipant
JayMatt19: but you & even the person themself cannot be sure of how he will act ahead of time. so should he drink & find out if he acts like a goy or maybe just not experiment that far?February 22, 2009 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #674482
asdfghjkl, the older guys are more used to drinking?? jk- i don’t drink all that much – i’m sure you drink a heck of a lot more.February 22, 2009 10:05 pm at 10:05 pm #674483
Echad hamarbeh ve’echad hamam’it ubilvad sheyichavein libo lashomayim.
Clearly chamira sakanta meissura, and there is clearly no heter to drink so much that you can’t daven or bentch. The mishna brurah is clear on this point, and I have yet to see someone who argues and holds that these mitzvos do not apply on Purim. Bentching is a deoraysa, and so is Krias Shma. Even on Purim, they’re halachos deoraysah, not chumros.
The famous bochur who almost died from alcohol poisoning on Purim should give us all pause. The Maharsh”a in Maseches Megillah says “shachtei Raba lereb Zeira” meant that he convinced him to drink too much and Reb Zeira became mortally ill. The Maharsha also adds in bava metzia that a tzurva merabbanan is allowed to claim on Purim that “lo yada” even tho he’s in a state of “yada”.
Finally, the Gr”a and many others say that “ad delo yada” means an inability to calculate the gematria of “arur Haman” and “baruch Mordechai”.February 22, 2009 10:13 pm at 10:13 pm #674484
>>JayMatt19: but you & even the person themself cannot be sure of how he will act ahead of time. so should he drink & find out if he acts like a goy or maybe just not experiment that far? <<
I wasn’t giving p’sak. I was just commenting how sad it is that the original post said it as an absolute (that drunk yidden act like goyim)
I would like to point out that the mitzva is ONLY BY THE SEUDAH, AND ONLY ON WINE (red wine to be exact). There is no mitzva the night before, the week before. No mitzva on vodka, whiskey, bourbon or the like. and no where in any sefer is there a mitzva to smoke anything.February 22, 2009 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #674485
“The jovial character of this feast is illustrated in the saying of the Talmud (Megilla 7b) stating that one should drink on Purim until he can no longer distinguish between (ad delo yada) the phrases, arur Haman (“Cursed is Haman”) and baruch Mordechai (“Blessed is Mordecai”). In Hebrew these phrases have the same gematria (“numerical value”), and some authorities, including the Be’er Hagolah and the Magen Avraham, have ruled that one should drink wine until he too drunk to calculate these numerical values.
“This saying was codified by Rabbis Isaac Alfasi (the “Rif”), Asher ben Jehiel (the “Rosh”), Jacob ben Asher (the “Tur”), Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chayim 695, and is interpreted simply (as explained above) by the Chatam Sofer. This interpretation of the Talmudic statement, or the acceptance of the statement itself, is disputed (for various reasons) by the Tosafists (based on the Jerusalem Talmud), Maimonides, Rabbeinu Ephraim, Ba’al HaMa’or, Nissim of Gerona (the “Ran”), Orchot Chaim, Be’er Hagolah, the Magen Avraham, Rabbis David HaLevi Segal (the “Taz”), Moses Isserles (the “Rema”), Vilna Gaon, the “Maharsha”, Rashash, Tzeidah LaDerech, Hagahot Maimoniyot, Ra’avyah, Korban N’tan’el, the Bach, the Maharil, P’ri M’gadim, Kol Bo, Chochmat Mano’ach, the Mishnah Berurah and others. These authorities all advocate drinking wine in some quantity, but all (except Hagahot Maimoniyot and Ra’avyah) discourage the level of drunkenness suggested by the Chatam Sofer. The Rema says that one should only drink a little more than he is used to drinking, and then try to fall asleep whereupon he certainly will not be able to tell the difference between the two phrases indicated by the Talmud. This position is shared by the Kol Bo and Mishnah Berurah, and is similar to that of Maimonides.”
— from WikipediaFebruary 22, 2009 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #674486
moish: ha yeah!!! i’ve seen so many times, the younger guys going shot for shot with the older guys & end up passed out!!! something i’ve learned from heavy drinkers-ya ganna have pickles or food like that to wash all that alcohol down!!!February 22, 2009 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #674487
no, just don’t mix drinks and make sure to drink double water so you don’t dehydrate.
liquor before beer, you’re in the clear
beer before liquor, never been sicker
not sure where wine falls in so just stick to oneFebruary 22, 2009 10:45 pm at 10:45 pm #674488
By the way, the Orchos Chaim (quoted by the Beis Yosef) opposed drunkenness very strongly, as follows: “A person is obligated “livesumei” on Purim – not to get drunk. For drunkenness is an issur gamur, and there is no greater sin, for it can lead to gilui arayos and bloodshed and many other aveiros. Rather, a person should simply drink a bit more than he is accustomed to.” Several rishonim hold that this is the point of the continuation of the gemara “Kam rabba/rava (depending on the girsa) v’shachtei l’Rabbi Zeira.”
It seems like most poskim held that people should not get very drunk, and that they should just drink more than they usually do.
Moish: Rashi spells out that it is only a mitzvah to drink wine, not other alcoholic beverages. I am unaware of any rishonim that disagreed with Rashi.
P.S. The mitzvah livesumei only applies during the daytime.
P.P.S. People should be careful about how they time their seudas so that they can bentch and daven both mincha and ma’ariv without being drunk. For example, daven mincha at mincha gedola. Then start the seuda and drink. Drink moderately and stop drinking early enough that by the time you bentch and daven ma’ariv you are reasonably sober.February 22, 2009 10:46 pm at 10:46 pm #674489
moish: the pickle rule works awesome!!!February 22, 2009 10:47 pm at 10:47 pm #674490
moish: cute lines there!!!February 22, 2009 10:50 pm at 10:50 pm #674491
oh i know that, i was just letting asdfghjkl know that i know how to not get sick.
happens to be, last purim i don’t think i drank anything. i think i was sick or something – don’t remember anymore.February 22, 2009 10:56 pm at 10:56 pm #674492
an open bookParticipant
jaymatt19: ok got itFebruary 22, 2009 11:14 pm at 11:14 pm #674493
I agree with cantoresque as far supervising how much teenagers drink under the age 18 or 19. What I have a problem with is the fact that people who are inebriated drive a vehicle in that condition. A solution might be to appoint someone to be a designated driver who will not imbibe maybe drink Grape Juice instead. The driver would give the designated driver his keys to drive him home.February 22, 2009 11:29 pm at 11:29 pm #674494
asdfghjkl, they’re OLD…February 22, 2009 11:38 pm at 11:38 pm #674497
moish: yup but cute………!!!!February 22, 2009 11:42 pm at 11:42 pm #674498
yank what’s the difference between 13 and 20?
if you’re going by jewish law, 13 is a man. and if you’re going by american law it’s 21. so in between is all the same.February 23, 2009 12:27 am at 12:27 am #674499
There are several halachic differences between ages 13 and 20, none of which relate to drinking on Purim AFAIK.February 23, 2009 1:31 am at 1:31 am #674500
If you are under 21, you get drunk and break some law, like driving under the influence, you will get into MAJOR trouble (you are already breaking the law just by drinking at all). The problem with being drunk is that most people have no clue as to how drunk they really are, and what they are doing. Ad d’lo yada, in this day and age, can be a light buzzed feeling, it doesn’t necessarily have to be out and out drunk. When our chazal talked about this “mitzvah,” they lived in a time when people drove wagons with animals. They didn’t have two-ton killing machines under their control (or lack, thereof). I sincerely doubt any responsible rov would suggest that talmidim should get plastered. Some of the biggest chillulei Hashem have occurred in Purim, because boys drank obscene amounts of liquor. Halevai that these same boys were as dedicated to getting to minyan on time every day, as they are to being mekayeim the mitzvah of “ad d’lo yada.” Amazing what chassidim they become when they want to be. As you can tell, I am totally opposed to the kids drinking altogether, much less getting drunk out of their minds. There is no such thing as responsible drinking for irresponsible people.February 23, 2009 1:40 am at 1:40 am #674501
you know what i meantFebruary 23, 2009 1:40 am at 1:40 am #674502
I’m not sure if we’re allowed to post links, so I’ll just direct everyone to an article by Rabbi Dovid Rosenfeld at Torah.org on drinking. I think it’s called, “Wine and Self-knowledge.”February 23, 2009 2:39 am at 2:39 am #674503
Actually the amount a person under a certain age drinks is really up to the Rav. or individual pouring the drinks. This would depend on if whether the drink is either Wine or Moshka. Hopefully a Bochur would not be served Moshka just Wine, unless his Father or Uncle were present at the time and gave the Person pouring permission to pour the Bochur Moshka.This seems like a Conservative Position but being a Zaida many times over, I have seen many times Young People imbibing Moshka and vomiting in Shul RL. I am sure you and your family would not appreciate this scenario. Leaving the Shul in an inebriated state, could potentially make the same Bochur unprepared negotiating traffic when crossing a busy street or Boulevard. We are all responsible for each other. In short what I am trying to say is for the person pouring to discriminate and discern the age of the individual requesting the drink and to act prudently.February 23, 2009 4:12 am at 4:12 am #674504
Thank you oomis1105 for your psak din on how ad dlo yada changed for “todays day and age.”February 23, 2009 4:19 am at 4:19 am #674505
“Basically you are saying that you think people should get drunk but only if they don’t get drunk… “
noitall: if i wanted to say that, i simply would have said that. please dont put words in my mouth. if you think when all yidden get drunk they act like goyim, unfortunately you are either naieve or just stereotyping frum yidden.
“Anyway, flatbush WHY do u think underage buchurim should drink?? Its ILLEGAL why make a chilul Hashem??? The ones who are underage are the ones who get in trouble….they should NOT be drinking and no one should encourage them to either”
blackcar: i never said they should. i said its ok. and when i said they have to act like yidden that means not making a chillul Hashem. if they will make a chillul Hashem obviously they cant drink.February 23, 2009 5:58 am at 5:58 am #674506
“Do you think people should get drunk on Purim or not?”
Yes, if you are able to resurrect anyone you might kill (chas v’shalom) due to your drunkedness.
No, otherwise.February 23, 2009 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #674507
As long as the provider of drinks to those under 21 is ready to go to jail and/or be sued due to their actions, they can serve someone under 21. 21 is random, as why not 20?
The problem with drinking at night is that you are not prepared (drunk, hung over, no longer in the mood, etc.) to be Mikayem the Mitzvos Hayom. Since there is no Mitzva to drink at night, someone who cares about Mitzvos should not put themselves in a matzev where they might miss out on Choivas Purim.
Josh31: Rav Zeira refused to go back, so even then its not a good idea.February 23, 2009 6:10 pm at 6:10 pm #674508
josh31: i dont think any frum yid killed another person when he was drunk on Purim. if your reason you cant get drunk on purim is because you might kill someone thats ridiculus and preposterous.February 23, 2009 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #674509
the age 21 is ridiculus. even 20 would be stupid. if an 18 yr old could join the army and die for his country and if 18 is a legal adult why on earth is the drinking age 21? the age should be 18 like everything else in america.
plenty of people are able to get drunk at night and be mikayem the mitzvas hayom. for those that cant should not get drunk as i said dont drink at night unless you can wake up for megilla. i should have wrote as you said to be mikayem all of the mitzvas hayom and not just to wake up for megillaFebruary 23, 2009 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #674510
gavra_at_work >>Rav Zeira refused to go back, so even then its not a good idea. <<
Rav Zeira refused to go back BECAUSE HE KNEW THAT RABA WOULD BE DRINKING AGAIN!! Even after shecting Rav Zeira, Raba was still going to drink.
(Please don’t read more into my words than I have said. Just discussing a gemarra here)February 23, 2009 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #674511
flatbush >>plenty of people are able to get drunk at night and be mikayem the mitzvas hayom. for those that cant should not get drunk as i said dont drink at night unless you can wake up for megilla. i should have wrote as you said to be mikayem all of the mitzvas hayom and not just to wake up for megilla <<
except that the mitzva of drinking (getting drunk) is specifically by the seudas hayomFebruary 23, 2009 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #674512
I agree about the age (they used that argument for voting age), but the law has consequences that may not be avoidable.
Imagine (CV) a child gets into an accident due to Purim drinking (DUI or not). The insurance company which pays for the hospital, rehab etc. will want rembursment from the (legally) guilty party who provided the booze. THEY will notify the police. If the family/injured parties do(es) not cooperate, the insurance company will not be responible to pay and they will be left with hundreds of thousands (if not more) in bills which will force them to cooperate.
As far as the second point, you can’t (for most people, you may be different) get the same geshmak from drinking during the seudah if you’re hung over from the previous night.
As far as Raba & Rav Zeira, is offen a Gemorah. If you don’t think its possible for a Purim drunk to die and/or kill someone else (DUI), you are living in a dreamworld (I don’t think you are, so could you please elaborate?)February 23, 2009 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #674513
The Aruch Hashulchan spells out all the major sheettos on the matter. Why, bederech klal, more people tend to go toward the maikal sheetah but here more people gravitate to the machmir sheetah? [rhetorical question]February 23, 2009 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #674514
Aside for all the legal/safety issues involved, i have seen guys say and do things they regret big time….but like most things in life, if you do them with moderation and control it doesnt have to become something bad/out of control….February 23, 2009 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #674515
Thank you oomis1105 for your psak din on how ad dlo yada changed for “todays day and age.”
You’re welcome, Joseph @@. It is not my p’sak, but the opinion of my rov.February 23, 2009 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #674516
Everything in moderationFebruary 23, 2009 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #674517
josh31: i dont think any frum yid killed another person when he was drunk on Purim. if your reason you cant get drunk on purim is because you might kill someone thats ridiculus and preposterous
Flatbush, I would love to know how you can write with such certitude. It would be nice to believe what you posted, but you happen to be wearing rose-colored glasses. I cannot go into details, but a boy in my neighborhood caused a very serious accident one Purim from his “adherence” to this mitzvah, and I doubt any rov would say that he will be getting any sachar for that. He also caused a great chillul Hashem at the time, because a non-Jew was one of the victims. I reiterate my concern that the rabbonim who strongly believed in the “ad d’lo yada” drinking, lived in a time when people did not operate dangerous vehicles or machinery, and lived in small towns, not going out of their daled amos while drunk, as so many of our youth are doing under the guise of simchas purim, or worse, collecting tzedaka. And any adult who offers them a drink is BEGGING to be sued if anything bad should happen as a result.
I have an alternative idea. Let the boys congregate in one home (where they will spend the entire night), and limit them to X number of drinks (say, 3) under adult supervision. This will ensure that no one is out driving drunk, vomiting on someone’s lawn (which happened to me a few years ago, as I live next door to a boys’ yeshivah high school and the wonderful young men decided my backyard was their personal toilet), or getting into trouble. It would need to be someone with a large rumpus room, to accommodate the group. At least they would be safe and not causing trouble anywhere. And if one got too rowdy, the parents could easily be reached to come get their offspring.February 23, 2009 8:25 pm at 8:25 pm #674518
Mayan – your post made me smile 🙂February 23, 2009 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #674519
JayMatt wrote: “Even after shecting Rav Zeira, Raba was still going to drink.”
That is actually the svara given for why the Rif, the Rosh, and the Tur paskened according to “ad d’lo yada.” (How they interpreted “ad d’lo yada is less clear.” Perhaps they held like Tosfos, based on the Yerushalmi, that ad d’lo yada is actually a pretty minimal level of drunkenness).
Of course, it is worthwhile to mention the Maharsha, who writes that Rav Zeira didn’t actually die. He says that Rabba pressured Rav Zeira to drink so much alcohol that Rav Zeira became dangerously ill. This is a good Maharsha to remember for Purim.
Mayan_Dvash wrote: “Why, bederech klal, more people tend to go toward the maikal sheetah but here more people gravitate to the machmir sheetah?”
I’m not sure what you mean. In this case, being machmir in either direction means being maikel in the other. If your machmir on getting super drunk, your are being maikel according to the shitos that assur getting drunk. If you are machmir on staying sober, you are being maikel on the shitos that say to get drunk. It is impossible to be yotzei kol hashittos in this case.February 23, 2009 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #674520
I’m not sure what you mean. In this case, being machmir in either direction means being maikel in the other.
What I think Mayan was insinuating (and tongue in cheek), is that with most mitzvot, people try to get away with doing the minimum. Here, everyone wants to go according to the shitta that lets you do the most (AKA drinking the most).February 23, 2009 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #674521
TJ, I suspect you are of those who do not take the phrase “ad delo yoda” at face value. Unfortunately, those who get drunk out of their box do and are “machmir” on fulfilling that phrase.February 23, 2009 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm #674522
yeah by the way, when pesach comes around everyone’s gonna be skimping on the wine… what happens in one month??February 23, 2009 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #674523
yeah by the way, when pesach comes around everyone’s gonna be skimping on the wine… what happens in one month??
They remember their purim hangover.
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