October 11, 2010 2:57 pm at 2:57 pm #592588
I actually saw this topic in the Yated’s Reader’s Write and I think it warrants a discussion. A child (not sure girl/boy) wrote in that his parents are struggling and because of that he didn’t get his report card from last year, and he doesn’t feel the chaysheck to study hard for this year, because he toiled so hard last year and he can’t get to see his marks. Im not judging him on that, but im ccurious to hear if its a right thing to do- to withhold a childs report card because the parents are struggling to pay tuition.October 11, 2010 3:41 pm at 3:41 pm #701358
An appropriate solution to non-payment of tuition has not yet been discovered. End of story.October 11, 2010 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #701359
It’s not a new issue, I personally dont think it’s fair.
The chinuch roundtable had the question last year and most of the Rabbonim felt it wasnt right.
2 years ago my friend made about half of what he did the year before and couldnt pay the amount the school wanted, so his girls didnt get report cardsOctober 11, 2010 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #701360
Arc- yes i remember the chinuch roundtable had the question and i noticed that most of the answers were that parents are not making tuition their priority etc…. and that they did not really touch base with the question itself.October 11, 2010 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #701361
Welcome to the dog-eat-dog world. Kids are constantly being used as leverage (divorce, parent struggles, tuition).
But I really can’t blame the schools. I was a few thousand in the red, and the school but the screws to me Regents time. So I coughed up a hefty payment. And you know what? I would have done the same thing to the administrator, if the roles were reversed.
And we wonder why teens are so cynicalOctober 11, 2010 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #701362commonsenseParticipant
it’s definitely not right to put the kids in the middle but what leverage does the school have. i am sure there are many parents that have the right priorties but i know of quite a few who don’t. there are many people who view sending their kids to school as a right and put tuition on bottom of the list of neccesities. I have a hard time of where to draw the line but schools cannot run on air, teachers like to eat too!October 11, 2010 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #701363
what leverage does the school have
Is that an argument to say that they can use the kids as leverage?
They have no leverage.October 11, 2010 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #701364
Schools have leverage. They are too menchlech to use it.October 11, 2010 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #701365gavra_at_workParticipant
Would any of you be happier if the school said we will give you your card but find another school for next year?
I am very torn on this one. On one side, to fault the child is wrong. On the other, the school has the right to withhold services if they are not receiving payment.October 11, 2010 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #701366HelpfulMember
Levarage other than the children?
Or do you mean they can make a Korbon out of a child.October 11, 2010 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #701367
Helpful. Like I said, they have leverage, but are too menchlech to use is.
I’m related to school administrators. I know how hard they try NOT to use the child as leverage, but when they must, they go to their Rav and ask for permission to do so. More often than not the Rav contacts the families Rav (whenever possible and if not, the family directly) apprises him (or them) of the situation and more often than not, some tuition is forthcoming from the parents. Sometimes the Rav will tell them that they cant use the child as leverage based on his understanding of the situation. the bottom line is, the schools DO have leverage, but unless pushed hard against the wall, will not use it. They are mechanchim, not mafioso.October 11, 2010 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #701368gavra_at_workParticipant
They could put out the list of scholarship children, with requests to “sponsor a child” (which is stam not a bad idea, if it is done the right way (with some Menschlichkeit)).
Menschlichkeit, you know… something between men… it’s about honor, and character… untranslatable. That’s why it’s Yiddish.October 11, 2010 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #701369
I did’nt say its right to use kids as levrage, I just said its a sad fact.October 11, 2010 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #701370telegrokMember
It’s wrong. Period.
Once a school accepts a student, it is required to provide that student with a level of service that is equivalent to the services provided to all other students. And, I would hardly call a “report card” a service.
If the school finds the amount of tuition paid by the parents unacceptable, then it should simply dismiss the student from the school.
But to play this “half-way” game is nahreshkeit: if you accepted the student, then treat the student as a student.October 11, 2010 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #701371
“They are mechanchim,”
Apushtayid- is that the correct chinuch, to withhold a childs report card? I can actually say firsthand what it feels like to have a report card withheld, and its not pretty. Especially knowing that its not your fault and that your parents are trying really hard. In addition, the school knew that throughout the year tuition was being paid steady (a little per month or whatever). It wasn’t like it was not being paid at all. And, the “punishment” didn’t gain anything, tuituion was still being paid at the exact rate as before. It just caused heartache.October 11, 2010 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #701372
Blinky. I can also telly you first hand how it feels to have my own report card and grades witheld. Nevertheless, I dont see it as as flawed chinuch in witholding a report card (I was told how I did by my teachers, the school didnt assur it) from a student. I think the chinuch is worse when parents dont try and sit down with school administrators to work things out.
I dont know all administrators and all parents. The ones I do know (those I am related to and those who work in the yeshivos my children attend) bend further and further backwards until there is simply nothing left to bend. How many parents can you say have the same attitude towards tuition (I can only speak on behalf of myself)?October 11, 2010 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #701373
I can actually say firsthand what it feels like to have a report card withheld, and its not pretty. Especially knowing that its not your fault and that your parents are trying really hard
And that’s why, Blinky, you love / respect your parents, much more than you do the school you went to. As it well should be.
To quote an adom godol, when it came to a shechita question, and he was told, XYZ’s team said this is the better way:
You can believe them.. ven ez kimpt tzi tzappen blit, zei zennem mumchim! (no real way to translate into english, but essentially means when it comes to bloodsucking / kishka eating, the mosdos are pros)October 11, 2010 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #701374Dr. PepperParticipant
I would have paid to have my report card withheld.October 11, 2010 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #701375
“I would have paid to have my report card withheld.”
haha.October 11, 2010 9:39 pm at 9:39 pm #701376emanParticipant
Unfortunately, a lot of people are trying to get away with paying, which is wrong. I once served on a tuition committee. A few examples.
1. A son works for his father and shows an unusually small amount of income on his 1040. Looking at his lifestyle it is obvious he is paid off the books.
2. A person who I knew had switched jobs in the past year shows his w2 from 1 employer with a reduced annual income instead of his 1040.
3. A person who just remodeled their home, had a maid and wanted a reduction.
With people like that, unfortunately the Yeshivos have to be tough.October 12, 2010 12:19 am at 12:19 am #701377
Yeshivas should separate the money from the chinuch and many do. There are tuition committees working with the Financial administrators who are working separate from the Rosh, principal and administrator of chinuch. Two separate entities, one taking care of the children and curriculum and one taking care of the finances. Most require credit card accounts and automatic monthly payments in order to register your child for the year. They do not concern themselves with how you make those arrangements that is up to the parents. So whether they do it through their own account or have someone sponsor them, the yeshiva gets paid. If there are extenuating circumstances they work it out on the financial side of the Yeshiva and the children themselves are not effected.
Understand what this means. Parents HAVE to be financially responsible or they wind up paying more in tuition costs because they pay interest to the bank or lender for late payments on their credit card bills from which the tuition payments have already been drawn. So if parents would rather spend money on fancy cars, or fixing up their home, they know that the Yeshiva gets paid first and that will show up at the top of their credit card statement every single month.
At no time should a child have to suffer because a parent is late in tuition payments. A parent should work something out with the financial office, whether it be to raise funds for the yeshiva to meet his obligation, or fill out the appropriate paperwork “on time” to see if they are eligible for scholarships, etc., or even barter with the yeshiva depending on what kind of skills he or other members of his family can provide for the yeshiva. As a matter of fact yeshivas should promote the skills of those in their parent body who have difficulties paying their tuitions so that other members of the parent body can avail themselves of their services and give them the parnasah to afford the tuition.
While most Yeshivas send home a weekly newsletter and “charge” for the ad space, this would be a great opportunity to do this chessed and by the same token promote much needed tuition dollars for the yeshiva, by advertising for those parents who need work in order to pay their tuition bills. No one will know whether these parents paid for the ads or not, so why not work together to make it work for everyone?October 12, 2010 1:09 am at 1:09 am #701378popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Everybody has their own obligations.
A parent’s obligation is to support the people who are moser nefesh to teach their children.
A rebbe’s obligation is to do what is best for his students. It is not best for his students to make them feel bad for their parents’ inability to pay.
Any school which feels it can only operate in this way should close down. Are you trying to help klal yisroel, or trying to secure yourself a job which doesn’t come with the guilt of leaving learning?
Who was expecting that from me?October 12, 2010 3:39 am at 3:39 am #701379chesednameParticipant
1) i doubt a child wrote it, a parent wrote it to get more sympathy, and it seemed to have worked.
2) is it fair that rich zevulin goes in to the pizza store puts down $5.00 and walks out with 2 slices and a soda, while yissocher asks for the same thing, with no money and was turned away? why should a yeshiva provide anything for free?
that being said, if you’re asking parents to pay more than the actual cost of tuition, to subsidize other students, then make sure you’re charging what they can afford! also if you’re charging more than it cost, i think the parents that pay full tuition should have the right to see the books. what is the principal taking? how many kids does he have on the payroll? etc..
as far as the question of holding back the report card, they do have the right if tuition wasn’t paid, but i don’t see it helping much. parents can’t print money, or withdraw what’s not in the bank.October 12, 2010 11:06 am at 11:06 am #701380minyan galMember
I think that part of the problem may be that there are too many schools and yeshivot. Each has their own reasons for existing and has its own following but, with today’s economy, it is time to re-evaluate. It may become necessary for some of these institutions to amalgamate to cut down costs. While I don’t feel that withholding a student’s grades is fair to the child, many parents, often through little fault of their own, are not paying their way. Worse, are the parents who are not paying their fair share – which is common and affects the global budget of the school. Tuition fees are only going to increase and steps must be taken to ensure that all children receive the education they deserve. The problem is not going to go away.October 12, 2010 1:03 pm at 1:03 pm #701381
When parents make it a priority to pay tuition, then maybe I would feel more compassionate. A Yeshiva education is a priveledge, not a right.October 12, 2010 1:21 pm at 1:21 pm #701382
minyangal, you have a very good point. People open up their own yeshivas for their own reasons. Some are very good ones like a new concept or placing kids others threw out. But some are just really to create an environment so they themselves can make a parnasa or to stroke their own ego. This of course adds to the burden of mortgage payments, building fund which they attach to the parents’ obligations, dinner, melave malka, etc. all in an effort to raise funds for the yeshiva but one parent might have their children in 2 to 4 different yeshivas and that is the least if you have girls and boys in both elementary and high school. If you have more than 4 kids and have various needs you can be supporting 6 or more yeshivas at a time. Each with their own demands.
I don’t think that out-of-town yeshivas experience the same problems that big cities do for these reasons. They might need to raise money for Kolel but not really to run mainstream yeshivas because they basically have one for the entire community or one for boys and one for girls. Or like the joke goes about shuls one they send to and one they don’t.
There are many chapters to this story, it is more than just to sides to the coin. But no matter which way you look at it, if you get the children involved you destroy them. Children should be left out of it as one other poster commented. If you accept the child do not involve him. If you can’t afford to accept the child do not accept that family for the next year.October 12, 2010 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #701383
For #1 & #2 you are correct.
For # 3, There is no chiyuv for a person to live in a run down home and if both parents are working then a maid can become a necessity. Additionaly, maybe the renovation was done because they have a daughter of age, and as the yeshivas are teaching, you must find someone to support you and if the house looks disheveled, of course they can’t support you.
One of the real reason there is tuition rasing issues is because parents don’t trust the finances of the institutions. They are closed books, how do I know you are spending the money wisely? If I don’t trust you then you are not my priority in paying bills.
EDITEDOctober 12, 2010 2:06 pm at 2:06 pm #701384
So, as questioned above, is it better to kick a child out of school for non-payment or withhold a report card?
Remember, if there are enough non-paying families, the school will close. Then no one gets their report card.October 12, 2010 2:08 pm at 2:08 pm #701385
Rescue, you are drinking the koolaid.
Seriously – why do people feel entitled to cleaning help when they have other bills to pay? Unless they are disabled or something, do without. I’m tired of people crying they are “tuition poor” when they have many luxuries.
Our friends are putting in a $250,000 renovation on their house. They get a scholarship.October 12, 2010 2:26 pm at 2:26 pm #701386
Cleaning help is not koolaid. I have heard that there a Rabbonim that say cleaning help is a must and not a luxury. Why are you drawing the line at cleaning help? Maybe the rule should be that you can’t buy takeout, nosh bags at the store for the kids, anything more than rice and beans for dinner and chicken only on shabbos and no meat. What to you is a luxury is to some a necessity. I am sure we can go through your spending habits and find some “luxuries” and therefore you should pay more tuition. Do you use airconditionig in the summer? that’s a luxury use a fan and sweat a little. Is your thermostat set abouve 64 or 66? wear a sweater.
As far as your neigbours $250k renovation, do you know where the money is coming from? Did they maybe have termite damage and have to gut the house? Maybe they need a bigger house and this is a cheaper way of ataining it? Maybe someone in the family was getting depressed over the house and this is the way to get rid of the depression? Tuition commitees are generally aware of these things, if they’re not, it is still not your business. I pay what I can, if someone else is lying cheating or stealing, it’s HKBH’s responsibility to take care and worry about it. HKBH gives everyone what they need, if other people pay more and your tuition payments go down it does not mean you will have extra money in your pocket.October 12, 2010 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #701387
Rescue, your response is basically why the Yeshiva system is collapsing.
True, there are some things that are luxuries to some that aren’t to others (like a disable person might need cleaning help).
Jews today have NO priorities when it comes to money. They want a full yeshiva education, live in expensive neighborhoods close to shuls, have many children, learn in Kollel, have a stay at home mother, have cleaning help, 2 cars (depending on location), send their kids to summer camp, seminary/beis medrash in Israel, Jewelry, vacations, Pesach in hotels….
We need to make choices. If tuition costs $4,000/child (and that’s on the cheap) and you have 8 kids, do you send them all? Can you afford $32,000 after tax money? If not, do you get rid of your cleaning help to pay for it? Or homeschool some kids and send others to yeshiva? Or sell your engagement ring? Or your silver candle sticks and light with tea lights? Or your cars?
We all want things we can’t afford and this generation is all taking as much as they can without giving. Its not suprising, when most people think of cleaning help as a necessity. Symptom yes.
And yes, I know where they are getting the money from. Its not termite damage.October 12, 2010 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #701388
rescue37, let’s put yeshivas and tuition aside for the moment and lets just talk about luxury vs necessity. Maybe you should take another look at what you are saying. This is a totally spoiled generation, I had four kids and my oldest was 9 and I had to go back to work for my husband and the time when I first got cleaning help. Do you get that? A 4 bedroom home on 4 floors, cooking and cleaning and even laundry! Yup, I didn’t even send shirts to the cleaners I ironed and starched them all myself. And I worked at my daughter’s school to pay off tuition when i had all three of them in school. I even did rope chains and sheitels in my home to help with expenses.
Today B”H, I am in a different matzav, but when I had to, yes we ate mostly chicken and not meat. Meat was a luxury. Even OJ was a luxury. We bought things on sale and watched every penny. We didn’t use paper plates or plastic cups, I washed the dishes. I even hung out laundry to dry to save on the electric for the dryer. And who cared about designer labels when you were happy to even have clothes that fit your child properly and be able to afford to buy something new when they needed it. We recycled our children’s clothing among our brothers and sisters and we got them back when we needed them. Understand that when you must you do without! AND you do put your priorities in order!
I am all for Dan L’kaf zchus and no one should be judging or peeking into yenem’s windows, but if you discuss luxury vs necessity know what you are talking about.October 12, 2010 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #701389
most people arent redoing their houses. most people that redo their houses arent doing it at the expense of tuition.
most people cant afford tuition because they cant afford it.October 12, 2010 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #701390
This thread wasn’t started about why there is a lack of tuition (SJS- i was waiting for your comment on cleaning help:) It was just an ethical question, can a school withhold something forom the child? Will that generate more $?October 12, 2010 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #701391
I dont think its right if it didnt/doesnt work schools would not do it.October 12, 2010 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #701392
That question has been answered already. The ensuing discussion is the natural and predictable direction of the conversation.
The bottom line issue here is mistrust. The schools do not trust the parents to pay as much as the school believes they should be paying. The parents do not trust the school’s decisions about tuition levels, scholarships, and money management. The parents also do not trust each other to be doing enough to pay their fair share. It is a constant battle, and the battle can never be won.
The only solution is to wave a white flag. End the battle. If all sides are serious about working together towards a resolution then there needs to be open, honest two-way communication . There should be monthly town hall meetings where the school shares operating information with the parents, in exchange for promised co-operation and participation. Both sides need to be giving more.October 12, 2010 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #701393
Blinky, my response is that when parents take tuition more seriously, then it would be wrong. Until then, parents don’t take it seriously and the school should let the parents know that they aren’t getting their final “product” until tuition is paid.
Arc, tuition isn’t paid because most people have many luxuries (there is no need to live within the boundaries of Boro Park for example when you can save a few hundred a month by moving 1/2 mile away – that’s a luxury). Reduce luxuries, more money would come in, less scholarships needed, better financial situation for everyone. Children get report cards. Viola!October 12, 2010 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #701394Ben TorahParticipant
SJS – question for you:
Suppose in 6 years both you and your spouse are, G-d forbid, out of work. You have 2 or 3 children in school. Tuition is $20,000+. Income is zero (or close to it.)
Does your views change? Will you accept a tuition break? Is it acceptable for you to be able to defer paying tuition?October 12, 2010 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #701395
Ben Torah, you misunderstand what I’m saying.
When someone is going through a rough time, we should help them AND BE ABLE TO HELP THEM. Someone in a perpetual state of “poor” for making bad choices, deserves help but not in money form. In the form of help of how to spend less and do with less.
If my husband and I were out of work, we would probably pull our kids out of school and homeschool in the duration. We would also try to move in with family and rent out our house to minimize expenses. We would sell our possesions. We aren’t “too proud” to do these things.October 12, 2010 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #701396
You can’t compare what you went through to what is happening now. Generations have changed and the expectations are different. The blame rests not only on the parents but yeshiva education as well. When bochrim expect/demand to be supported and girls are taught that they must marry a kollel guy, why should their standard of living be less than what they are used to? The luxury of 20 years ago is a necessity now, that is just the way it works. air conditioning, a car, takeout/prepared foods, aluminum pans, human hair sheitels, are they luxury or necessities? Depends who you ask and what generation they are from. Why should someone give up on luxaries when they are doing what was brainwashed into them in school? There was no mention of having to do without during the brainwashing.October 12, 2010 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #701397Ben TorahParticipant
rescue – no school I know brainwashed anyone into thinking human hair sheitels, takeout, or air conditioning are necessities. Perhaps someone did. But not the schools.October 12, 2010 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #701398says whoMember
So you suggest that every jew that is on scholarship should pick up their family and move to the cheapest rental. People and family are not ROBOTS. Imagine every time someone goes through a money crisis they have to move.October 12, 2010 3:42 pm at 3:42 pm #701399
Why are you revolving the world around brooklyn? choosing a community that you want to live in isnt a luxury.October 12, 2010 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #701400WIYMember
QUESTION TO ALL
Is the report card really the childs? Isn’t it for the parents to see how the kid is doing and then to keep (as nachas or sentimental value)?
Most kids don’t care about the physical report card all that much, that’s why the parents are being punished when it is withheld.October 12, 2010 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #701401
the kids care, most kids want to see their work quantified.
also most schools that dont give report cards withhold the transcripts as well.October 12, 2010 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #701402
“Most kids don’t care about the physical report card all that much”
WIY- i disagree. Kids that are concious of their marks and try hard do like to see it. It also gives them a boost to see their hard work pay off. This thread was started because a child did not receive his report card and just doesn’t want to try hard again for this yr. because he didn’t get to see his previous results. my heart really goes out to this child because obviously for HIM and im sure others it make a difference when something is witheld. In addition it is also embarrasing as classmates discuss their marks (typical human nature fore kids even though its not so smart) and you are left out because of s/t you can’t control.October 12, 2010 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #701403
I’m not talking about someone losing their job and needed a leg up every once in a while. If you are perpetually on scholarship, that means you can’t afford your current lifestyle.
Whatever community you are in, there is generally a cheaper option farther away. Even if it means walking 2 miles to shul on Shabbos. I know people who have done that.October 12, 2010 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #701404
moving is expensive and 2 miles from a jewish community is very far. many frum people want to live in a frum city because the environment is more conducive to a torah lifestyle.
In my opinion living in a frum neighborhood isnt a luxury and most schools probably agree with that.October 12, 2010 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #701405
Moving cost will be recovered in a short span of time.
Sure, 2 miles is far. But doable. 100% doable. Is a yeshiva education more valuable than being far from shul?
This is what I mean. No one wants to prioritize their money. Schools come LAST. So no, I don’t really feel bad for the family that doesn’t get a report card or transcripts because they haven’t paid up.October 12, 2010 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #701406YW Moderator-80Member
So no, I don’t really feel bad for the family that doesn’t get a report card or transcripts because they haven’t paid up.
its amazing how you know all the circumstances of these families and can judge them so convincingly
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