December 9, 2010 5:04 am at 5:04 am #593380myfriendMember
Pnei Yehoshua – the righteous suffer for the sake of othersDecember 9, 2010 2:33 pm at 2:33 pm #716008tzippiMember
I’ll leave this for people who are better able to access primary sources, but there is a maamar chazal that tzaddikim are mechaprim for their dor. I would suggest that SZ’s visceral reaction is because other religions take this concept as meaning that they have a lot of leeway in their lives, if at one final moment they fully accept someone in their hearts, without translating it into action and meaningful life. We have a greater concept of personal responsibility.December 9, 2010 2:35 pm at 2:35 pm #716009The RovMember
Between the Pnei Yehoshua ztv”l and sz the anon who is mevaze talmidei chachomim, my choice is the former.December 9, 2010 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #716010
SZ is correct. it is a Xtan concept. like all their concepts, taken from Yiddishkeit, twisted and overlayed and distorted as to lose all its original meaning.December 9, 2010 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #716011The RovMember
Next thing you know sz will tell us its a xtian concept to pray in a house of prayer.December 9, 2010 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #716012yitayningwutParticipant
It’s a Gemara in Shabbos, 33b:
???? ???????? ????, ?????? ?????? ?? ????December 9, 2010 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm #716016popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Next thing you know sz will tell us its a xtian concept to pray in a house of prayer.
xtian? nice!December 10, 2010 5:51 am at 5:51 am #716017RuffRuffMember
Mod 80 –
If SZ is correct, why don’t I find him on this page? I only see The Rov, who is incidentally now blocked.
Yes, like many other Mamarei Chazal, it must not be taken too far — which it never has been. There are different Dinim: the individual is judged personally and the public is judged in another way. Certain things come about because the world deserved it or the country or the group. The Tzaddik’s suffering doesn’t take away anyone’s Chet, just the punishment that was to happen to the Tzibur.December 10, 2010 8:40 am at 8:40 am #716019
my comment was sarcastic
you would have to have seen the deleted comment to understand
sorryDecember 10, 2010 11:20 am at 11:20 am #716021apushatayidParticipant
#80. I have to ask you for mechila, I was not dan lekaf zechus yesterday when I saw you did not put up my comment. After seeing your most recent comment, I see why.
Regarding the pnei yeshoshua. Seeing the words inside will show that he is far removed from the xtian concept of “the suffering servant”, for starters he is dealing on a communal level, not a personal one, which is quite clear from his words. If anything, seeing the pnei yehoshua inside one might distort his words c”v and come up with “original sin”.
The tzlach btw learns that yissurim shel ahava helps a person due to the concept, lefum tzara agra. This answers the question the pnei yehoshua starts with.December 10, 2010 11:29 am at 11:29 am #716022
i did not delete your post
there are a lot of moderators hereDecember 10, 2010 11:59 am at 11:59 am #716023apushatayidParticipant
Ok. Now I’m guilty of assuming 🙂
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