January 20, 2013 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #607859
Tznius or not?
Harmless or not?
I see lots of frum girls wearing them at home.January 20, 2013 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #946592achosidParticipant
What about a US army sweatshirt?
Same answer.January 20, 2013 6:48 pm at 6:48 pm #946593
I think they are one of those “status symbols” that frum girls like to have that indicate that they have been to E”Y. I think they are completely harmless, if you are wearing it at home- even in public, there is nothing wrong with it. I mean, I would not go into a Bais yaakov wearing one, but when you go to malcha, or are in other places, I don’t see the harm in it. How are they not tznius? Mine is pretty baggy to say the least, I feel like a gangsta sometimes in it, at other times, it reminds me that I have the ability to be in control…January 20, 2013 7:21 pm at 7:21 pm #946594WIYMember
Why would “at home” be an issue unless at home means in the US.January 20, 2013 7:47 pm at 7:47 pm #946595ImaofthreeParticipant
I think it depends on the girl and her taste.January 20, 2013 8:01 pm at 8:01 pm #946596
It kind of feels like a political statement to me.January 20, 2013 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #946597mddMember
I think it is a problem. I am not going into the reasons (at least, for now).January 20, 2013 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #946598
Considering that one of the main purposes, if not the main purpose, that Tzahal has women is for disgusting non-Tsnius reasons, I would consider it a terrible thing.
A girl wearing a Tzahal shirt is like saying (whether she realizes it or not) that she approves of the way Tzahal uses and abuses women. Wearing that shirt is like saying “I’m with them.” Would you consider it tsnius if a girl wore a shirt with a big picture of a rapper whose lyrics are misogynist and degrading to women?
A friend of mine – former chayal – told me how Tzahal bussed in chayalot to the soldiers for the express intent of hooking up. To me, this is institutionalized zenus and a just a notch higher than human trafficking. Bilaam must be laughing in his grave.January 20, 2013 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm #946599Boro Park GirlMember
MDG, u r sooo wrong!
snowbunny is right. I am from a very frum circle and as a teenager I always wanted a tzahal sweatshirt because it was a shticky thing to wear at night in camp and by school shabbosim. I honestly do not think anyone is associating with the IDF by wearing these sweatshirts- they are really status symbols just like any brand names…January 20, 2013 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #946600rebdonielMember
Maybe they support the brave men and women who risk their lives for the defense of the Jewish people day in and day out?January 20, 2013 11:18 pm at 11:18 pm #946601
You missed an important phrase in MDG’s post:
(whether she realizes it or not)January 20, 2013 11:38 pm at 11:38 pm #946603
As a frum female who wears a tzahal sweatershirt,i would like to say that at least majority of those who like myself wear these sweatershirts have no meaning behind the wearing of these sweatshirts other then they are warm,cuteand like snowbunny said it shows that the person was in E”Y. Besides the point that we should atleast be supporting tzahal a bit and most frum people dont,i think its a kiddush ‘H when goyim see the sweatershirt and see how frum a person is. Most have the beleife that as frum Jews we shouldnt and dont support the state of israel and we should! For those of you who will keep wearing the sweatershirt after reading this keep it up! think for yourself!!!January 21, 2013 12:08 am at 12:08 am #946604
Its kinda like how more secular Jews wear coca- cola apparel in Hebrew as their status symbol.January 21, 2013 12:28 am at 12:28 am #946605
Most women have no idea, not a clue, about a man’s yetzer hara. Every male has a strong tendency to see women in an Arayos fashion. Every male.
A frum man will try to combat it. The greatest, like the Steipler Goal and the Baba Sali, were on constant guard to fight it. They would not speak with women. They would even not read a note from a woman (they could tell who wrote it just by looking at the writing), for they knew the enemy better than us. They stopped all infiltration, even the slightest.
A non-frum man will become ensnared by the enemy and become it’s slave. He will try to constantly feed his evil master. He then will look for ways to play the field, planting traps, lure the prey, hunt, and kill to feed the enemy. But the desire is only momentarily sated; soon to desire more, as the hunger grows.January 21, 2013 12:50 am at 12:50 am #946606
MDG: Now that is one way to resolve the shidduch crises.January 21, 2013 3:49 am at 3:49 am #946608mddMember
Ladies, I am sure you do not mean it, chalilah, but it is like wearing a beis bushah uniform. It is like wearing a t-shirt with an avidah zorah temple on it. Support the the army in other ways.January 21, 2013 4:06 am at 4:06 am #946609
“Support the the army in other ways. “
I agree. I did not want to imply a blanket condemnation of Tzahal.January 21, 2013 4:20 am at 4:20 am #946610
Boro Park Girl and Yiddishe Meidel, this is exactly the kind of attitude that surprises me. By supporting Tzahal, you are supporting the secular state. Not everyone in Tzahal is even Jewish! Why can’t you wear a Magen David t-shirt instead?January 21, 2013 4:22 am at 4:22 am #946611
MDG, I don’t think they are any less tzanua than any other sweatshirt.January 21, 2013 4:34 am at 4:34 am #946612
Recognizing tzaha”l is not the same as recognizing the state.January 21, 2013 4:47 am at 4:47 am #946613
DaasYochid, I believe it is. One of our three promises to Hashem is that we won’t take back EY by force.January 21, 2013 4:47 am at 4:47 am #946614
I think the Chazal is “Lo Yaalu B’Choma”. One of the others is that we won’t throw off the yoke of the nations. And the third is that we won’t force Moshiach to come.January 21, 2013 5:12 am at 5:12 am #946615OneOfManyParticipant
MDG: So you’re saying that one of the most active and combat-ready military forces in the world is in some significant proportion structured around providing its soldiers opportunity for fornication?
…really?January 21, 2013 5:20 am at 5:20 am #946616Loyal JewMember
It is mindless and dangerous to wear such a thing. Mindless because “Tzahal” is the ultimate in untznius r”l. Dangerous because people are watching and there is a shidduch crisis.January 21, 2013 5:23 am at 5:23 am #946617
Also that we won’t defend ourselves from those that are trying to kill us?January 21, 2013 5:48 am at 5:48 am #946618
613’s point is that tzahal violated the shavuos (and also caused the situation of those trying to kill us, that you speak of.)January 21, 2013 6:00 am at 6:00 am #946619
torah613-your attitude is what surprizes me! yes there are some tzahal that arent Jewish,but what about those that are? Do you really think it makes them feel good when people say we shouldnt support tzahal just becasue there are non Jews,it should be we support it BECAUSE there are jews no matter the amount! and by wearing a magen david doesnt show that i relize that my fellow brethern and people i know are fighting with their lives so that we may go to E’Y,and yes we should be relaizing the secular state to some extent! otherwise we might not be even allowed in today!!January 21, 2013 6:06 am at 6:06 am #946620
I understand that there are different opinions, however I don’t think there is a point of debating the legitimacy of Zionism here on this website…January 21, 2013 6:10 am at 6:10 am #946621WIYMember
We really run EY?! What a joke! EY is and has been a satellite of the US for many decades.They probably couldn’t exist without the US money weapons and protection in the UN.January 21, 2013 6:25 am at 6:25 am #946622
It is inappropriate to wear an IDF sweatshirt, regardless of how naive its wearers may be.
Every army indoctrinates its members in its nation’s core values. Regardless of your views on the State of Israel, and how much Zionist kool-aid you’ve had regarding how the IDF protects Jews, etc. ad nauseum, those core IDF/Zionist/anti-Torah values, including the rampant znus there, and that the gedolim have already ruled it is Yehareig viAl Yaavor to join that army, are all obviously very much not in consonance with those of a BY Girl.
I’m surprised this is even a hava amina. Besides for the whole Zionist mess, the gedolim said it’s better to forfeit one’s life than to join the IDF. Yet some BY girls think it’s okay to wear a sweatshirt with the IDF logo imprinted on it because they want a wearable memento from Eretz Yisrael?
(Would you wear a sweatshirt with an image of an avoda zara on it as a memento from a trip to Rome, lihavdil?)
Do they not make sweatshirts with Yerushalayim or the Kosel or something else that’s actually Jewish, if you must have a memento from E”Y? Even if not, where is your sensitivity?
On another note, who said you have to support the army, and who told you it’s a kiddush Hashem to show the nations you support the IDF? Maybe you have no business supporting that which the gedolim ruled is yehareig viAl Yaavor to join and that it’s in fact a chilul Hashem to show the nations that you support anyone but your host country?
Ask your LOR, but Zionism is a very big problem, even if the current attitude to it is essentially, “it’s terrible that Zionism came around, but now that it did, we can’t do anything about it”. This doesn’t kasher their various forms of rishus and it does not kasher their State or anything else about them, either.January 21, 2013 6:43 am at 6:43 am #946623
There’s a difference between showing support for the state, or for the individuals who, l’maseh, are putting their lives on the line to protect Yidden.
I greatly respect the Satmar shitah, but it’s not the shitah of the litvishe gedolim, who did show gratitude to soldiers.January 21, 2013 6:56 am at 6:56 am #946624
Perhaps on an individual basis, but the Litvishe gedolim (as a rule) didn’t recognize tzahal as an institution.January 21, 2013 7:13 am at 7:13 am #946625
snowbunnny-i think your totally right,this is a long standing issue and not really the place to be dissuced on this kind of site,especially around the topic of sweatshirtsJanuary 21, 2013 1:49 pm at 1:49 pm #946626NaftushMember
MDG intones: “A friend of mine – former chayal – told me how Tzahal bussed in chayalot to the soldiers for the express intent of hooking up.” This friend must have reported the ghastly incident to someone, say, a media correspondent, a government watchdog, or a lawyer acquaintance, especially since he knew what the “express intent” had been. The resulting investigation must have generated lots of headlines. So, MDG, please tell us what came of it, apart from providing you with titillating fodder for lashon hara against the IDF.January 21, 2013 1:55 pm at 1:55 pm #946627
Thanks to Litvish Kiryas Yoelite, that was the point.
Of course I support individual soldiers! I think all the soldiers in Tzahal are very brave and I’m thankful for their sacrifice of time and exposure to danger to support Jews. That’s a different issue entirely. This thread is about the appropriateness of wearing Tzahal sweatshirts, you can start another thread to talk about sweatshirts in general (as WIY already has) or Tzahal in general.
Thanks for posting HaKatan.January 21, 2013 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #946628
Better question, I see a lot pf BOYS wearing Yankee T-Shirts etc. during Bain Hazmonim, is that Tznius?
Which is preferred, if you have to pick one..Yankees or Tzahal?January 21, 2013 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #946629
As a man, I would still never wear a tzaha”l sweatshirt, because of the political connotations.
My point is that I can see someone wearing it not as a political statement, but rather as a show of personalsolidarity with the soldiers.January 21, 2013 5:50 pm at 5:50 pm #946630
OneOfMany said: “MDG: So you’re saying that one of the most active and combat-ready military forces in the world is in some significant proportion structured around providing its soldiers opportunity for fornication?
Yes. What does one have to do with the other? Men can be physically intimate and emotionally detached at the same time. We all need some entertainment – some are more Tahor than others.
Rabbi David Orlofsky has a good shiur on a man’s yaitser hara and how many men will do whatever it takes to satisfy that urge. You can find it at simpletoremember.com
Naftush said: “This friend must have reported the ghastly incident to someone, say, a media correspondent, a government watchdog, or a lawyer acquaintance….”
No one was forced to do anything. They just set up the situation for debauchery and let nature take its course. You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink. If the horse is thirsty, it’s going to drink.January 22, 2013 4:37 am at 4:37 am #946631
DaaasYochid, wearing anything with a logo on it explicitly denotes support for that organization, so anyone who wears it for whatever reason is still incorrect in doing so.
anon1m0us, there’s no contest between the two, though organized sports happens to be another topic.
Many yeshivos and camps have taken their students or campers to ball games. As well, many gedolim have proclaimed it’s yehareig ViAl yaavor to join the IDF.
Is it not very obvious which shirt is better to wear?January 22, 2013 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #946632
It’s implicit, not explicit, but because it’s implicit, I wouldn’t wear it.
And it’s not true for any organization; if I wear a Wildlife Conservation Society sweatshirt, it’s not because I support them,it’s because they gave me a free sweatshirt when I signed up (as a way of saving money on the zoos/aquarium).January 22, 2013 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #946633
DY: I don’t think Maris Ayin would apply for a WCS shirt. Because you are against Tzaar baalei chaim, and everyone knows you don’t give money to save sharks because you care about the sharks. It’s completely different davka paying for these sweatshirts. Tzahal doesn’t give them out for free.January 22, 2013 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #946634
HaKatan: Can you please list off the MANY gedolim that state that it is yehareig ViAl yaavor to join the IDF? Do not include Satmar or Neutra Karta.January 22, 2013 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm #946635
The Chazon Ish says it is yeherag val yaavor for women to join the idf.January 22, 2013 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #946636
The Litvishe Kiryas Yoelite: and men?January 22, 2013 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #946637
Hakatan said, “anything”.January 22, 2013 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #946638ShiraTobalaMember
As long as you cant see your collar bone or elbows or knees. Also, boys don’t have the Mitzva of tznius.January 22, 2013 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #946639
DaasYochid: Not sure I get your pointJanuary 22, 2013 7:36 pm at 7:36 pm #946640
I don’t think wearing a sweatshirt is an automatic show of support for whatever is behind the logo, as HaKatan opined. It may or may not be.January 22, 2013 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #946641
DaasYochid, by wearing a WCS shirt or any other t-shirt, whether or not you got it for free, you are, like it or not, expressing an approval for that organization. That’s just the facts.
You may mean differently, and that’s very nice in your own thoughts, but, in the real world, wearing a logo implies some recognition/support of what that logo represents.
With a Sports Team, for example, it could mean you enjoy watching their games or attending their games in person. It could also mean you consider them to be role models or more; but it doesn’t necessarily mean that.
There is no possibility of kosher endorsement of the IDF. The best you can say is that, once the Zionists made the mess they did, the IDF is now needed to deal with that mess. Arguably. But that’s not why one wears a t-shirt or sweat-shirt, just like you wouldn’t wear a sweatshirt with a toilet plunger (except as an an inappropriate joke) despite its utility, so the obvious implication of wearing an IDF sweatshirt is more than that, one of endorsement, which is inappropriate on a number of levels.January 22, 2013 9:11 pm at 9:11 pm #946642
Sorry, soldiers aren’t toilet plungers. Couldn’t you have thought of a better analogy for people who risk their lives to protect Yidden (no matter what their motivation might be)?
Your analogy to sports teams is a pretty good one – some people wear those sweatshirts to show support for the team displayed, and some (although certainly a minority) simply because it’s stylish or because they received it from a fan or bought it in the local thrift shop.
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