January 22, 2013 9:35 pm at 9:35 pm #946643walton157Member
MDG: Yes, that is why they are called “male”, for they have no self control at all.January 22, 2013 9:45 pm at 9:45 pm #946644
OneOfMany said: “MDG: So you’re saying that one of the most active and combat-ready military forces in the world is in some significant proportion structured around providing its soldiers opportunity for fornication?
Yes. What does one have to do with the other? Men can be physically intimate and emotionally detached at the same time. We all need some entertainment – some are more Tahor than others.
What does your answer have to do with my question?January 22, 2013 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #946645
DY, lots of people like to argue “Don’t judge me by my clothes, but what’s inside.” Is that what you’re saying here, that the outfit doesn’t reflect your inner views necessarily?
If that’s the case, would you go around with a sweatshirt that said “I hate Chareidim”?January 22, 2013 10:23 pm at 10:23 pm #946646
OOM: Why is MDG’s original comment hard for you to accept? In the thousands of years of the history of war and mankind, armies have won and lost their greatest battles without women. Women are not suited for combat. Bringing women into an army does not strengthen an army.
Why else, do you propose, has tzahal always been on the forefront of contemporary armies in placing women in combat?January 22, 2013 11:00 pm at 11:00 pm #946647
Joseph: What does your comment have to do with my question, or MDG’s comment?
I am starting to feel like we are playing broken telephone here…January 22, 2013 11:27 pm at 11:27 pm #946648
OOM: Clarify you original point, please.January 22, 2013 11:33 pm at 11:33 pm #946649☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
No, that’s not what I’m saying.January 22, 2013 11:35 pm at 11:35 pm #946650
Joseph: Clarify what was unclear about it.January 22, 2013 11:38 pm at 11:38 pm #946651
I thought my comment addressed your point, but you now indicate otherwise. What was your point?January 22, 2013 11:49 pm at 11:49 pm #946652
My point was that MDG sounded like a wacked-out conspiracy nut. I thought that was quite clear.
What exactly was your point?January 22, 2013 11:52 pm at 11:52 pm #946653
DY: Please don’t call me 613. It makes me feel like a number*.
(just kidding!)January 23, 2013 12:13 am at 12:13 am #946654WIYMember
Who is Joseph here?January 23, 2013 12:19 am at 12:19 am #946655
But since you ask…hm…on this thread, Loyal Jew and The Litvishe Kiryas Yoelite. (And sushee/sushe.)January 23, 2013 12:49 am at 12:49 am #946656
sushee- just because in the past women have not faught in wars,why should that change anything now? in the past thousands of years women and girls got by without a proper education by any means and yet we are almost at a 100 year mark of Bais yaakov and relizing what a mistake it was for girls not to have learned previsoulsly. Besides who says that women are not good for combat and that they dont help?January 23, 2013 1:40 am at 1:40 am #946657
ym613: Society, including women, was far better off before the shas hadchak that required the beis yaakov system. Women in combat is a terrible problem on so many levels, tznius being the foremost in addition to the points I earlier made about it.January 23, 2013 1:44 am at 1:44 am #946658
Women have less body mass, plus are distracting to men in combat. Unless it’s an all-woman unit fighting against an all-women unit, seems like a waste of time incorporating women into an army to me.January 23, 2013 2:49 am at 2:49 am #946659
sushee-why do you think that soceity was better before women where treated equally? besides without bais yaakovs how do you expect for all these young girls being able to work so their husbnands can learn in kollel all their lives( girls can only work in certain places if they know the halochos wich they learn in school!) and what problems exactly may that be for tznius please tell me?
Torah613- in what way do you think women are distracting to men? and you are being very sexiest right now,you can say majority of women do have less body mass then men but there are many women out their that are stronger and can fight much better then certain menJanuary 23, 2013 3:03 am at 3:03 am #946660
Yiddishmeidl, I really shouldn’t have to spell out in which way women are distracting to men. Just take my word for it that we are. Or ask a man.
Yes, and there are many 13 year old boys out there who are taller than many women.January 23, 2013 3:39 am at 3:39 am #946661
torah613-edited. We aren’t discussing that. But, you are incorrect, as a quick google search would prove
yes your right there are on occasion young boys taller then women,but they also are not necassirly stronger or better built,and women do mature faster then men adn are able to handle things of war better.January 23, 2013 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #946662HaKatanParticipant
DaasYochid, no, I could not come up with a better analogy. Regardless of how commendable some of the people who serve in the IDF are, they are part of an organization that is anti-Torah which is, in turn, a part of a State that is anti-Torah. So I thought my analogy was actually pretty charitable.
Regardless, as you mentioned at the end of your post, it doesn’t matter what you might think your reason is for wearing a sweatshirt or anything else.
If the garment carries with it a popular connotation then by wearing that garment you will convey that connotation even if you’re doing so because it’s “stylish” or comfortable or you like the color or for any other reason.
Wearing an IDF sweatshirt necessarily implies endorsement of the IDF and, also by extension, the State of Israel. This is, therefore, inappropriate, on many levels, as mentioned earlier.January 23, 2013 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #946663
Yiddishmeidl: Fine, so go join the US army (or Tzahal if you’re in Israel).January 24, 2013 1:03 am at 1:03 am #946664
im so glad that you are checking with google for accuracy but its a pity that you trust the internet over frum people. I have very good friends with family in tzahal currently and i have seen how they dress and i will tell you its as frum as any bais yaakov girl. everyone has a choice when getting dressed how and what to wear and in the army the also have a choice,im sorry you think i was misinformed
torah613- im not saying i have a tivah to join the army,because i dont. I am trying to defend those i know who do,theres nothing wrong with it and theres nothing wrong with women showing their eqaulity to men and theres nothign wrong with wearing tzahal sweatshirts,supporting tzahalJanuary 24, 2013 1:27 am at 1:27 am #946665
Equality does not mean that people should be treated the same.
With that said, I am not interested in this discussion with you, Yiddishmeidl, and it stops here.January 24, 2013 1:53 am at 1:53 am #946666
what i said was that women have every right as men do in the army,they should be given the same oppurtunity and cahnces,
and that is totally fine with me, i find it hard to believe that their are still people like you who dont believe in giving men and women equal chancesJanuary 24, 2013 1:56 am at 1:56 am #946667
So have it with me. ^_^
What does “equality” mean?January 24, 2013 3:27 am at 3:27 am #946668
equality means that people,male and female,are given the same chances and treated the same way. Such as men and women are equaly strong sometimes opposed to how some people veiw that men are always strong and women are weakJanuary 24, 2013 3:38 am at 3:38 am #946669
lol I meant torah613613torah. I think I (mostly) agree with you.January 24, 2013 4:07 am at 4:07 am #946670
OOM – Equality is giving people equal opportunities with consideration of biological realities. 🙂January 24, 2013 4:16 am at 4:16 am #946671
Men and women are not equal. Women should not get an aliya and men should not tzind lecht Erev Shabbos.January 24, 2013 4:29 am at 4:29 am #946672
Equality is giving people equal opportunities with consideration of biological realities.
I entirely agree. And I think yiddeshemeidle613 agrees with you too. No one thinks that women who are unfit for battle should be sent out into war zones. In fact, I don’t really think that most women would serve much use in a war at all (at least in hand-to-hand combat). The point is that that does not logically impute that there are none who can, and therefore cannot serve as a basis for banning all from combat.
My view, basically, is that equal opportunity be bestowed, and care be taken that it be truly “equal,” and not merely intended to pump the number of females for good PR. Any female with the correct motivations (and self-respect – any true feminist would be loathe to respond to such pandering) would probably pass muster and be worthy.
Joseph: Please join only to add something relevant to the subject at hand.January 24, 2013 5:47 am at 5:47 am #946673Loyal JewParticipant
OneOfMany, whatever you think I can’t stand in for your legendary “Joseph” but all commenters should “add something relevant to the subject at hand.” Here is something relevant about wearing IDF sweatshirts. As we sit here, that Cantonist organization is preparing to chap 3000 Jewish boys and some of us think it’s OK to wear its sweatshirt. That says all that needs to be said about “equal opportunity.”January 24, 2013 6:02 am at 6:02 am #946674
Okay, I’ll go for irrelevant: I don’t particularly approve of wearing IDF sweatshirts. Did I say something that made you think that?January 24, 2013 11:47 am at 11:47 am #946675TheBearIsBackMember
It should be worn as a “schmatte” – for cleaning the house, taking out the garbage, shopping in a dirty outdoor market, painting, arts and crafts, messy cooking etc. It can also be worn on Peerim, if your legs are slim enough to fit in its arms and you wear something equally absurd but tznius over it.January 24, 2013 1:40 pm at 1:40 pm #946676mddMember
Loyal Jew, your warped and extreme comments betray your true id. Yoe are –Joseph.January 24, 2013 2:26 pm at 2:26 pm #946677takahmamashParticipant
As we sit here, that Cantonist organization is preparing to chap 3000 Jewish boys and some of us think it’s OK to wear its sweatshirt.
Imagine, if 3 thousand boys went in, perhaps 3 thousand girls would not have to go in.January 24, 2013 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #946678
OOM: The problem is also incorporation. We agree that SOME women are stronger than SOME men. But it’s also about practicality. Incorporating women into an army is hard because men are distracted by them and want to protect them in battle.
Anyway, lo silbash kli gever al isha. So it would be an issur d’Oraysa in any case.January 24, 2013 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #946679HaKatanParticipant
“Imagine, if 3 thousand boys went in, perhaps 3 thousand girls would not have to go in.”
Imagine how many of those boys would, CH”V, experience tremendous nisyonos and yeridos in their avodas Hashem.
And all for no reason other than that the Zionists want to shmad them just as they’ve always done.January 24, 2013 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #946680
torah613: We were talking about the concept of equality. The practicality of incorporation does not factor into the concept. And while the religious implications are definitely a sticky wicket in and of themselves, they are still irrelevant to what we were discussing.January 25, 2013 1:23 am at 1:23 am #946681YW Moderator-42Moderator
Wearing a Yankee sweatshirt is yarog v’al yaavor in Boston.
And in response to shiratobala on page 1, men have a mitzvah of tznius too.January 25, 2013 1:26 am at 1:26 am #946682
OOM: We’re talking about equality as it relates to women being in the army. If it takes special effort to incorporate someone in the army, than it is not equal.
That’s why disabled men don’t get into special needs platoons in the army. They just get discharged.January 25, 2013 1:50 am at 1:50 am #946683
torah613: Hm, I was actually trying to talk about equality in general, using the army only as an example. But okay.
I do not believe the moral imperative to treat people equally is mitigated by how hard it is to do so. Additionally, any inconvenience can simply be a backlash from being in an unjust state of inequality. So I can’t agree with you at all on that. …but I can’t really refute it, either.
And what do disabled men have to do with this? If they are unfit for duty, they are discharged. If a woman is unfit for duty, she is not given a commission.January 25, 2013 1:57 am at 1:57 am #946684NaysbergMember
If you admittedly cannot refute torah613’s point, you ought to concede it.
Additionally, the religious aspects are indeed part and parcel and very relevant to the discussion.January 25, 2013 2:01 am at 2:01 am #946685
Joseph: If I cannot definitively prove that there is a God, ought I concede that there isn’t?January 25, 2013 2:19 am at 2:19 am #946686
Well, according to pure equality, every man, no matter how fit, should be permitted to serve in the army if they wish to.January 25, 2013 2:52 am at 2:52 am #946687
I think we defined equality as relates to this discussion as “equal opportunity, with consideration of biological realities”? According to this definition, your sentence should read: Every man, no matter how fit, should be permitted to apply to serve in the army if they wish to.April 16, 2013 10:55 pm at 10:55 pm #946688
I’m wearing my Tzahal sweatshirt. ^_^April 16, 2013 11:10 pm at 11:10 pm #946689
LOL OOM. (or SNORT if you prefer 🙂 )April 16, 2013 11:16 pm at 11:16 pm #946690WIYMember
This was a fun thread.April 16, 2013 11:33 pm at 11:33 pm #946691April 16, 2013 11:46 pm at 11:46 pm #946692
I am not b’davka for or against them. Joe seemed to think I was defending wearing them from an ideological standpoint, and I was trying to tell him that I wasn’t. I do own one and have no problem wearing it, but would not wear it in public as a statement because I have no statement to make.
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