June 10, 2011 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #777453
There is no reason to look into car windows when walking in the street or when waiting at the corner to cross. There is certainly no reason to look into a car window AND down, unless one specifically wanted to.
Has anyone sees “sandrac” since alerting us to this horrible “crisis”? Am I the only one who believes this thread was started by a bored teenager who is laughing at the replies this “crisis” has generated? come on people.June 10, 2011 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #777454yaakov doeParticipant
This problem does not exist in Villiamburg, Munroe or New Square since women there don’t drive. If we extend this ban to Flatbush and Boro Park we could solve the skirt problem, the traffic problem and the parking problem.June 10, 2011 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #777455
If we adopted a specific chineese practice we could do away with this problem too.June 10, 2011 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #777456gavra_at_workParticipant
I think the man is right. In Oz v’hadar, he says the same. Jews are affected more by Jewesses. Look it up.
At least Joe has a good point with affinity attraction.June 10, 2011 6:58 pm at 6:58 pm #777457
“mike: Why don’t you further denigrate the Torah by calling those who uphold the Mitzvah in the Torah of Tznius as being “Taliban”, “Mullahs”, and “Ayatollahs”. The same people who equate tznius to “burquas”, do the same.”
Commending women for doing their best to dress tznius and on occasion when the dress does inch up, telling men not to stare is in no way denigrate the Torah. Please re read my earlier postJune 10, 2011 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #777458
Mike, even if one sees something inappropriate accidentaly for a split second, it is already a problem.
Mike, also check what the definition of leitzanus is!June 10, 2011 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm #777459EzratHashemMember
Many women complain that the stores only have shorter skirts now. Are there no entrepeneurs in the clothing industry who see the opportunity to sell a line to those of us who don’t want this nisayon in the clothing store? BTW, it’s comical that the women who wear the shorter skirts spend a lot of time tugging at the hem to draw them over their knees.June 12, 2011 1:51 am at 1:51 am #777460shev143Member
Sandrac, watch your own eyes and you wont have a problem with what others are doing.June 12, 2011 3:46 am at 3:46 am #777461EnglishmanMember
shev, you can’t dress like a prutza and simply tell men not to look. Women have obligations in how to dress, in addition to men’s obligation not to look.June 12, 2011 3:55 am at 3:55 am #777462
I don’t understand what the misunderstanding is. You’ve said that pencil (straight) skirts cannot always cover the knees when getting in or out of a car or especially a minivan (or even just sitting in a car). A skirt that cannot keep the knees covered at all times cannot be worn. That would eliminate pencil skirts.June 12, 2011 3:57 am at 3:57 am #777463
Shev143, for the n-th time, even if one is careful about shmiras ha’einaim, it is possible to see things unintentionally for a split second — and it’s already a problem.June 12, 2011 5:33 am at 5:33 am #777464a maminParticipant
I am totally unamused by the sarcasm in this thread.Tznius is an important issue!! I think we have to all stop looking at what everyone else should or should not be doing!! You need to watch out for yoursef!!!June 12, 2011 8:06 am at 8:06 am #777465YW Moderator-42Moderator
Has anyone sees “sandrac” since alerting us to this horrible “crisis”? Am I the only one who believes this thread was started by a bored teenager who is laughing at the replies this “crisis” has generated? come on people.
I had originally thought this was Joseph starting a crisis under a new old name. He has denied it. Make of that what you want…June 12, 2011 9:23 am at 9:23 am #777466momadviceMember
I think that according to what one does, one dresses differently. For example if one goes bike riding one should not go with the same skirt as when one goes walking. If one really has to go out in the car with a stright skirt, a practical idea would be to have or to make a wrapover that is left in the car ready to be used whenever necessary. Wishing you hatlacha in your efforts.June 12, 2011 11:05 am at 11:05 am #777467lesschumrasParticipant
“I think the man is right. In Oz v’hadar, he says the same. Jews are affected more by Jewesses. Look it up”
Question #1: Two women get out of different cars, both dressed in shorts. If neither is wearing any religiously related jewelry around their neck, how does a man know which one is Jewish?
Question #2:Then whay are so many Jewish men attracted to and marry non-Jews?June 12, 2011 11:32 am at 11:32 am #777468am yisrael chaiParticipant
“This problem does not exist in Villiamburg, Munroe or New Square since women there don’t drive.”
The challenge is with entering/exiting the vehicle, regardless if from the driver’s or passenger’s seat.
You would probably advocate women not leaving the kitchen altogether to alleviate the tznius issue…June 12, 2011 12:34 pm at 12:34 pm #777469minyan galMember
lesschumras- I agree with your question #2. I have heard that the intermarriage rate is hovering around 70% these days – I cannot cite the source because I don’t remember. I even know an extremely frum man who was more “attracted” to gentile woman and he married one – of course, after she converted. She now has 9 children and wears a sheitl. But, the point is where would he have had the opportunity to become involved with her in the first place? I know that once a person is converted, we are to accept them as if they were born Jewish, but usually, no matter how frum they are, something is lacking (my personal opinion). I often think that because “being Jewish” is more than religion – it consists an awful lot of culture. Most secular Jews have something about them that is more Jewish than the most frum convert. This is not meant to be a blanket statement, just a generaliztion from my personal observations. What do the rest of you think? I know it is a little off the topic of this thread.June 12, 2011 1:12 pm at 1:12 pm #777470
I don’t understand why so many men are spending time looking at women getting in and out of cars…I have no idea if this is an issue since I don’t look. In order to look that means you are staring where you shouldn’t. Instead of suggesting this is a tznius issue, I think those with a problem with it need to look internally…June 12, 2011 1:37 pm at 1:37 pm #777471shev143Member
Crisis? why is everything a Crisis?June 12, 2011 2:30 pm at 2:30 pm #777472whatrutalkingabtMember
He’s right that girls and women sit in their cars that way…I just never knew anyone can see.
Guess it doesn’t hurt to be more carefulJune 12, 2011 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #777473
I think that according to what one does, one dresses differently. For example if one goes bike riding one should not go with the same skirt as when one goes walking. If one really has to go out in the car with a stright skirt, a practical idea would be to have or to make a wrapover that is left in the car ready to be used whenever necessary.
The problem with going out in a dress not compatible or long enough for a car or minivan and all other daily activities, and leaving something in the car to cover you when you get in and out, is that you will be stuck if you go into another persons vehicle where you don’t have the wrapover. Are you not going to travel because your clothing will then make you untznius?June 12, 2011 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #777474minolsMember
tznius CRISIS ??? #1 Not every problem is a crisis. #2 please remember the Gemorah in Sotah about how women are zocheh to be save. Itdoes not say by whethe their skirts are always below the knee or if they never neer talk loshon hara, but if they support (emotionally and physically) the learning of their male relatives. Of course the other things are important but let’s not get obsessed !!!June 12, 2011 4:54 pm at 4:54 pm #777475am yisrael chaiParticipant
“Crisis? why is everything a Crisis?”
The OP meant “creases” and was concerned with the irony, I mean, ironingJune 12, 2011 9:57 pm at 9:57 pm #777476HachamMember
I would certainly characterize it as a crisis. Why any less than the “Shidduch Crisis”? When you have an epidemic where people are shamelessly wearing a miniskirt (i.e. above the knee – either literally or with movement or sitting) and shaitel combination, and even have the audacity to come to shul(!) like this in the frummest of neighborhoods, yeah I think crisis might be a little tame of a description for it.
And what is this telling men not to look have to do with the issue? Sure they shouldn’t. But we still need to dress non-provocatively whether they look or not. That means (amongst other things) at the very minimum an *always* covered knee. There’s no way you are not going to be seen even inadvertently. You can’t go in public (and that includes cars) immodestly, period.June 13, 2011 1:24 am at 1:24 am #777477dunnoMember
I don’t understand why so many men are spending time looking at women getting in and out of cars…I have no idea if this is an issue since I don’t look. In order to look that means you are staring where you shouldn’t. Instead of suggesting this is a tznius issue, I think those with a problem with it need to look internally…
Thank you, mikehall12382. While tznius may have to be worked on, it’s time for men to start being more careful with shmiras ainayim as well.June 13, 2011 1:53 am at 1:53 am #777478
Women need to be tznius and men need to have shmiras einayim. One doesn’t absolve the other. You can’t say I don’t have to be tznius since men should have shmiras einayim.June 13, 2011 1:54 am at 1:54 am #777479
And an additional point — unrelated to above — is that even men who have the best shmiras einayim will still see the women in public.June 13, 2011 2:16 am at 2:16 am #777480
Shlishi… Your post makes it seem like the women are not dressing tznius. This is not the case, they are. The issue appears to be with men looking where they shouldnt, It’s not like these women are walking around in shorts and tank tops. They are dressing accordingly and that in itself has to be commended. I have no idea how hard it is to dress in such a manner for obvious reasons, but I do admire them…it certainly is not easy.
These women are doing their part to dress appropriately, I suggest the men do their part and “guard you eyes”….
If you have such a strong issue with it, maybe you need to find a community that is better suited for you…I’m not trying to be smart but when I bought my house a lot of time was spent finding the right community that would work for my family.
If this is such a crisis then this seems to be the “norm” for this neighborhood….June 13, 2011 2:23 am at 2:23 am #777481
mike: Even a bunch of girls in this thread (pumper, hacham, whatrutalkingabt, etc.) said they agree they’re IS a tznius problem in this area. I’m not sure how you missed that. Like mdd said, the skirts need to be longer. This is a strict halachic issue (that knees need to be always covered), not a community standard issue.June 13, 2011 2:44 am at 2:44 am #777482
Shlishi, I’m not totally disagreeing with you. The problem arises when getting in and out of the car. Thus I suggest men do their part and not look…if the skirt is below the knee, I don’t believe it’s the women’s fault if it rises up.
To me the bigger issue would be with skirts well above the knee, if that was common place I would agree with the term crisis…this just doesn’t seem to be one from my point if view…June 13, 2011 2:56 am at 2:56 am #777483BEST IMAParticipant
It is a big problem even if the skirt covers your knees. When I’m getting out of an SUV even if it has running boards no matter what kind of skirt I wear I always feel like its a problem. If its a loose skirt it tends to fly up. If its a straight skirt even if it covers my knee when Im sitting, getting out of a car is a whole different thing than sitting. You’re turning around and jumping down its really very hard to keep your knees covered and I try to hold my skirt down but it doesnt always work. Im still trying to figure out a solution.June 13, 2011 3:28 am at 3:28 am #777484walter sobchskMember
of course men should have better shmiras e,but the shorter skirts/tighter clothing doesnt make it easier.even in the frumest communities its a massive problem.and its time the rebitzens,teachers woke upJune 13, 2011 3:43 am at 3:43 am #777485
Mike, the obligation for the women is to have their knees covered at all times. Period.
And for the (n+1)-th time, even if one is careful with shmiras ha’einaim, one can still accidentally see inadequately-covered women. Therefore, they have to be dreesed properly at all times.June 13, 2011 4:44 am at 4:44 am #777487
MiddlePath: How one “feels”? That’s reform. Shulchan Aruch most certainly does force rules on us all, including specifically what must be covered at all times.June 13, 2011 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #777488mewhoParticipant
seriously speaking, if the women wear tight skirts that are down thill their shins they will have to hike them up to get in and out of any vehicles.
perhaps thats the first thing that should go.
stop with the tight skirts.June 13, 2011 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #777489cherrybimParticipant
“I don’t understand why so many men are spending time looking at women getting in and out of cars…I have no idea if this is an issue since I don’t look.”
Well, after reading this thread, it seems that there are quite a number of frum men who do look. And good thing that they do, how else would we know of the car tznius crisis.
Keep it up guys and Tizcu l’mitzvos!June 13, 2011 11:02 pm at 11:02 pm #777490s2021Member
cherrybim LOL!!June 13, 2011 11:29 pm at 11:29 pm #777491
Someone needs to start a thread…”crisis of men looking at women getting in and out of cars”. :)….just joking….or am IJune 13, 2011 11:58 pm at 11:58 pm #777492
If there are indeed so many men looking at women, I surely wouldn’t want to be one of those women being ogled, and would thus properly cover up to minimize such a thing.
And is saying men shouldn’t look really an excuse to wear a miniskirt?June 14, 2011 10:39 am at 10:39 am #777493
A skirt that falls below the knee is not called a mini skirt….June 14, 2011 1:20 pm at 1:20 pm #777494
Having read a lot of the posts here — talk about “leitzanus echad doche mea tochechos”.June 14, 2011 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #777495
I wouldn’t classify anything written in this thread as tochacha.June 14, 2011 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #777496bptParticipant
With 90+ posts, I really can’t say something that has already been said, but I will add this.
The hemline competition is just that. Very competitive. If I were a woman of semi decent looks, and pitted against 100s of other women in my age / demographic area, I’d look for every advantage I could find to put me in the top 10%. A hemline that pushes the outer limit of tznius would be just such an edge.
Can’t blame the women who do push the hemline to the limit, but kol ha’kovod to the women who don’t. At a recent family gathering, it was quite a shocker to see how a few of the younger girls were dressed. So what alternative does that leave for the folks in their 30s and 40s?
Either retreat and admit defeat or fight back. Either way, its a tough call to make.
Glad I’m not in this battle.June 14, 2011 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #777497
bpt: They are pushing the hemline way past the limit.June 14, 2011 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #777498
Apashutyid, you would not, and I would.June 14, 2011 11:42 pm at 11:42 pm #777499cherrybimParticipant
That’s a knee jerk reaction.June 14, 2011 11:54 pm at 11:54 pm #777500
How about everyone take care of themselves, once you have totally perfected yourself, masterd the torah,then and only then can you comment on others? but before you do you must first get the permission From no less than 300 rabbis…June 15, 2011 12:06 am at 12:06 am #777501
Tochacha doesn’t work like that Mike.June 15, 2011 1:22 am at 1:22 am #777502
pacman/Joseph/??….not sure your approach works either.June 15, 2011 3:06 am at 3:06 am #777503
Mike, did you check out the definition of leitzanus?
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