Tznius Crisis in Cars

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  • #777453
    apushatayid
    Participant

    There is no reason to look into car windows when walking in the street or when waiting at the corner to cross. There is certainly no reason to look into a car window AND down, unless one specifically wanted to.

    Has anyone sees “sandrac” since alerting us to this horrible “crisis”? Am I the only one who believes this thread was started by a bored teenager who is laughing at the replies this “crisis” has generated? come on people.

    #777454
    yaakov doe
    Participant

    This problem does not exist in Villiamburg, Munroe or New Square since women there don’t drive. If we extend this ban to Flatbush and Boro Park we could solve the skirt problem, the traffic problem and the parking problem.

    #777455
    apushatayid
    Participant

    If we adopted a specific chineese practice we could do away with this problem too.

    #777456
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I think the man is right. In Oz v’hadar, he says the same. Jews are affected more by Jewesses. Look it up.

    Misham Rayah!?

    At least Joe has a good point with affinity attraction.

    #777457

    “mike: Why don’t you further denigrate the Torah by calling those who uphold the Mitzvah in the Torah of Tznius as being “Taliban”, “Mullahs”, and “Ayatollahs”. The same people who equate tznius to “burquas”, do the same.”

    Commending women for doing their best to dress tznius and on occasion when the dress does inch up, telling men not to stare is in no way denigrate the Torah. Please re read my earlier post

    #777458
    mdd
    Member

    Mike, even if one sees something inappropriate accidentaly for a split second, it is already a problem.

    Mike, also check what the definition of leitzanus is!

    #777459
    EzratHashem
    Member

    Many women complain that the stores only have shorter skirts now. Are there no entrepeneurs in the clothing industry who see the opportunity to sell a line to those of us who don’t want this nisayon in the clothing store? BTW, it’s comical that the women who wear the shorter skirts spend a lot of time tugging at the hem to draw them over their knees.

    #777460
    shev143
    Member

    Sandrac, watch your own eyes and you wont have a problem with what others are doing.

    #777461
    Englishman
    Member

    shev, you can’t dress like a prutza and simply tell men not to look. Women have obligations in how to dress, in addition to men’s obligation not to look.

    #777462
    shlishi
    Member

    pumper:

    I don’t understand what the misunderstanding is. You’ve said that pencil (straight) skirts cannot always cover the knees when getting in or out of a car or especially a minivan (or even just sitting in a car). A skirt that cannot keep the knees covered at all times cannot be worn. That would eliminate pencil skirts.

    #777463
    mdd
    Member

    Shev143, for the n-th time, even if one is careful about shmiras ha’einaim, it is possible to see things unintentionally for a split second — and it’s already a problem.

    #777464
    a mamin
    Participant

    I am totally unamused by the sarcasm in this thread.Tznius is an important issue!! I think we have to all stop looking at what everyone else should or should not be doing!! You need to watch out for yoursef!!!

    #777465
    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    Has anyone sees “sandrac” since alerting us to this horrible “crisis”? Am I the only one who believes this thread was started by a bored teenager who is laughing at the replies this “crisis” has generated? come on people.

    I had originally thought this was Joseph starting a crisis under a new old name. He has denied it. Make of that what you want…

    #777466
    momadvice
    Member

    I think that according to what one does, one dresses differently. For example if one goes bike riding one should not go with the same skirt as when one goes walking. If one really has to go out in the car with a stright skirt, a practical idea would be to have or to make a wrapover that is left in the car ready to be used whenever necessary. Wishing you hatlacha in your efforts.

    #777467
    lesschumras
    Participant

    “I think the man is right. In Oz v’hadar, he says the same. Jews are affected more by Jewesses. Look it up”

    Question #1: Two women get out of different cars, both dressed in shorts. If neither is wearing any religiously related jewelry around their neck, how does a man know which one is Jewish?

    Question #2:Then whay are so many Jewish men attracted to and marry non-Jews?

    #777468
    am yisrael chai
    Participant

    “This problem does not exist in Villiamburg, Munroe or New Square since women there don’t drive.”

    The challenge is with entering/exiting the vehicle, regardless if from the driver’s or passenger’s seat.

    You would probably advocate women not leaving the kitchen altogether to alleviate the tznius issue…

    #777469
    minyan gal
    Member

    lesschumras- I agree with your question #2. I have heard that the intermarriage rate is hovering around 70% these days – I cannot cite the source because I don’t remember. I even know an extremely frum man who was more “attracted” to gentile woman and he married one – of course, after she converted. She now has 9 children and wears a sheitl. But, the point is where would he have had the opportunity to become involved with her in the first place? I know that once a person is converted, we are to accept them as if they were born Jewish, but usually, no matter how frum they are, something is lacking (my personal opinion). I often think that because “being Jewish” is more than religion – it consists an awful lot of culture. Most secular Jews have something about them that is more Jewish than the most frum convert. This is not meant to be a blanket statement, just a generaliztion from my personal observations. What do the rest of you think? I know it is a little off the topic of this thread.

    #777470

    I don’t understand why so many men are spending time looking at women getting in and out of cars…I have no idea if this is an issue since I don’t look. In order to look that means you are staring where you shouldn’t. Instead of suggesting this is a tznius issue, I think those with a problem with it need to look internally…

    #777471
    shev143
    Member

    Crisis? why is everything a Crisis?

    #777472

    He’s right that girls and women sit in their cars that way…I just never knew anyone can see.

    Guess it doesn’t hurt to be more careful

    #777473
    shlishi
    Member

    I think that according to what one does, one dresses differently. For example if one goes bike riding one should not go with the same skirt as when one goes walking. If one really has to go out in the car with a stright skirt, a practical idea would be to have or to make a wrapover that is left in the car ready to be used whenever necessary.

    The problem with going out in a dress not compatible or long enough for a car or minivan and all other daily activities, and leaving something in the car to cover you when you get in and out, is that you will be stuck if you go into another persons vehicle where you don’t have the wrapover. Are you not going to travel because your clothing will then make you untznius?

    #777474
    minols
    Member

    tznius CRISIS ??? #1 Not every problem is a crisis. #2 please remember the Gemorah in Sotah about how women are zocheh to be save. Itdoes not say by whethe their skirts are always below the knee or if they never neer talk loshon hara, but if they support (emotionally and physically) the learning of their male relatives. Of course the other things are important but let’s not get obsessed !!!

    #777475
    am yisrael chai
    Participant

    “Crisis? why is everything a Crisis?”

    The OP meant “creases” and was concerned with the irony, I mean, ironing

    #777476
    Hacham
    Member

    I would certainly characterize it as a crisis. Why any less than the “Shidduch Crisis”? When you have an epidemic where people are shamelessly wearing a miniskirt (i.e. above the knee – either literally or with movement or sitting) and shaitel combination, and even have the audacity to come to shul(!) like this in the frummest of neighborhoods, yeah I think crisis might be a little tame of a description for it.

    And what is this telling men not to look have to do with the issue? Sure they shouldn’t. But we still need to dress non-provocatively whether they look or not. That means (amongst other things) at the very minimum an *always* covered knee. There’s no way you are not going to be seen even inadvertently. You can’t go in public (and that includes cars) immodestly, period.

    #777477
    dunno
    Member

    I don’t understand why so many men are spending time looking at women getting in and out of cars…I have no idea if this is an issue since I don’t look. In order to look that means you are staring where you shouldn’t. Instead of suggesting this is a tznius issue, I think those with a problem with it need to look internally…

    Thank you, mikehall12382. While tznius may have to be worked on, it’s time for men to start being more careful with shmiras ainayim as well.

    #777478
    shlishi
    Member

    Women need to be tznius and men need to have shmiras einayim. One doesn’t absolve the other. You can’t say I don’t have to be tznius since men should have shmiras einayim.

    #777479
    shlishi
    Member

    And an additional point — unrelated to above — is that even men who have the best shmiras einayim will still see the women in public.

    #777480

    Shlishi… Your post makes it seem like the women are not dressing tznius. This is not the case, they are. The issue appears to be with men looking where they shouldnt, It’s not like these women are walking around in shorts and tank tops. They are dressing accordingly and that in itself has to be commended. I have no idea how hard it is to dress in such a manner for obvious reasons, but I do admire them…it certainly is not easy.

    These women are doing their part to dress appropriately, I suggest the men do their part and “guard you eyes”….

    If you have such a strong issue with it, maybe you need to find a community that is better suited for you…I’m not trying to be smart but when I bought my house a lot of time was spent finding the right community that would work for my family.

    If this is such a crisis then this seems to be the “norm” for this neighborhood….

    #777481
    shlishi
    Member

    mike: Even a bunch of girls in this thread (pumper, hacham, whatrutalkingabt, etc.) said they agree they’re IS a tznius problem in this area. I’m not sure how you missed that. Like mdd said, the skirts need to be longer. This is a strict halachic issue (that knees need to be always covered), not a community standard issue.

    #777482

    Shlishi, I’m not totally disagreeing with you. The problem arises when getting in and out of the car. Thus I suggest men do their part and not look…if the skirt is below the knee, I don’t believe it’s the women’s fault if it rises up.

    To me the bigger issue would be with skirts well above the knee, if that was common place I would agree with the term crisis…this just doesn’t seem to be one from my point if view…

    #777483
    BEST IMA
    Participant

    It is a big problem even if the skirt covers your knees. When I’m getting out of an SUV even if it has running boards no matter what kind of skirt I wear I always feel like its a problem. If its a loose skirt it tends to fly up. If its a straight skirt even if it covers my knee when Im sitting, getting out of a car is a whole different thing than sitting. You’re turning around and jumping down its really very hard to keep your knees covered and I try to hold my skirt down but it doesnt always work. Im still trying to figure out a solution.

    #777484

    of course men should have better shmiras e,but the shorter skirts/tighter clothing doesnt make it easier.even in the frumest communities its a massive problem.and its time the rebitzens,teachers woke up

    #777485
    mdd
    Member

    Mike, the obligation for the women is to have their knees covered at all times. Period.

    And for the (n+1)-th time, even if one is careful with shmiras ha’einaim, one can still accidentally see inadequately-covered women. Therefore, they have to be dreesed properly at all times.

    #777487
    Pac-Man
    Member

    MiddlePath: How one “feels”? That’s reform. Shulchan Aruch most certainly does force rules on us all, including specifically what must be covered at all times.

    #777488
    mewho
    Participant

    seriously speaking, if the women wear tight skirts that are down thill their shins they will have to hike them up to get in and out of any vehicles.

    perhaps thats the first thing that should go.

    stop with the tight skirts.

    #777489
    cherrybim
    Participant

    “I don’t understand why so many men are spending time looking at women getting in and out of cars…I have no idea if this is an issue since I don’t look.”

    Well, after reading this thread, it seems that there are quite a number of frum men who do look. And good thing that they do, how else would we know of the car tznius crisis.

    Keep it up guys and Tizcu l’mitzvos!

    #777490
    s2021
    Member

    cherrybim LOL!!

    #777491

    Someone needs to start a thread…”crisis of men looking at women getting in and out of cars”. :)….just joking….or am I

    #777492
    shlishi
    Member

    If there are indeed so many men looking at women, I surely wouldn’t want to be one of those women being ogled, and would thus properly cover up to minimize such a thing.

    And is saying men shouldn’t look really an excuse to wear a miniskirt?

    #777493

    A skirt that falls below the knee is not called a mini skirt….

    #777494
    mdd
    Member

    Having read a lot of the posts here — talk about “leitzanus echad doche mea tochechos”.

    #777495
    apushatayid
    Participant

    I wouldn’t classify anything written in this thread as tochacha.

    #777496
    bpt
    Participant

    With 90+ posts, I really can’t say something that has already been said, but I will add this.

    The hemline competition is just that. Very competitive. If I were a woman of semi decent looks, and pitted against 100s of other women in my age / demographic area, I’d look for every advantage I could find to put me in the top 10%. A hemline that pushes the outer limit of tznius would be just such an edge.

    Can’t blame the women who do push the hemline to the limit, but kol ha’kovod to the women who don’t. At a recent family gathering, it was quite a shocker to see how a few of the younger girls were dressed. So what alternative does that leave for the folks in their 30s and 40s?

    Either retreat and admit defeat or fight back. Either way, its a tough call to make.

    Glad I’m not in this battle.

    #777497
    Pac-Man
    Member

    bpt: They are pushing the hemline way past the limit.

    #777498
    mdd
    Member

    Apashutyid, you would not, and I would.

    #777499
    cherrybim
    Participant

    That’s a knee jerk reaction.

    #777500

    How about everyone take care of themselves, once you have totally perfected yourself, masterd the torah,then and only then can you comment on others? but before you do you must first get the permission From no less than 300 rabbis…

    #777501
    Pac-Man
    Member

    Tochacha doesn’t work like that Mike.

    #777502

    pacman/Joseph/??….not sure your approach works either.

    #777503
    mdd
    Member

    Mike, did you check out the definition of leitzanus?

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