July 23, 2012 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #604239
Im shocked when I see how many of the women dress in the flatbush area. Skirts onto covering the knees, very tight clothes, I can’t even really describe some of the outfits In a frum Forum like this one. It’s become the norm and is a real problem not only to them but those of us who must encounter this on a daily basis. Any suggestions for how to get these ladies, or maybe their husbands, to consider others, if they’re not concerned for themselves?July 23, 2012 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #1087306
You’re absolutely correct.July 23, 2012 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #1087307
The problem is, of course, it’s between the women in question, their husbands, and HKB”H. You don’t really fit into the picture.July 23, 2012 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #1087308
I think the biggest shemirah is to avoid looking at women. With all due respect, it seems that you are taking a little too close of an inventory. Stop analyzing so much and look the other way. Its not your business to change the world.July 23, 2012 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #1087309
Yes, she most certainly does fit into the picture. Firstly, Kol Yisroel Areivim Zeh L’Zeh. Everyone is responsible for everyone else’s spiritual welfare. Additionally, what she (Bustercrown) is describing causes sin throughout society. Every time a woman is in public inappropriately, she causes untold number of other people to sin. Both inadvertently (those who see her without intention) and advertently (those who look at her purposefully.)July 23, 2012 7:21 pm at 7:21 pm #1087310
Bustercrown do you think your husband seeing these kinds of women on a regular basis led to his problem? is that why you are concerned?July 23, 2012 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #1087311
Why is this a “problem” to YOU feel is incumbent upon YOU (and others who love to jump on the tznius bandwagon at every opportunity) to rectify? I don’t know if you are male or female so I can’t speculate as to your motives. Are you a female that feels other women are getting more attention than you? Or, are you a male that feels his wife is not “up to par” in looks and cant control his wandering eyes? Either way, you seem to have a personal issue and want other to conform to you. You will not get women in Flatbush, Manhattan,or Beverly Hills to conform to your standard. If this has become such an issue for you, then move to Ramat Bet Shemesh where these things get enforced. Or, stay home. Then, with this important issue out of the way, you can concentrate on some lesser important issues like; gezeila, sinas chinam, loshon hora, and Shmiras Shabbos just to mention a few.
Or, you can simply control your eyes like every real talmid chochom that walks the street and work on yourself to become a better person.July 23, 2012 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #1087312
No, the OP is pained to see widespread sinning in public on the streets every day.
Every Jew should be so pained over this terrible situation.
Every Jew should want to have this rectified.July 23, 2012 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #1087313
+ 1July 23, 2012 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #1087314
believe me, its not only flatbush… its everywhere. and no, the solution to the problem is not shmiras ainayim. that’s PART of the solution. the other part is women must start dressing appropriately. you can’t tell the men to work hard looking away without telling the women to dress properly. men not looking does not make it ok for women to dress the way they do.July 23, 2012 8:21 pm at 8:21 pm #1087315
If you don’t think that this is a problem then you are part of the problem. And just because there are other problems that in your eyes may be more important, that does not mean that this issue should not be aired.
And it is not only Brooklyn. In Monsey recently, my wife went to a popular shop to look for something tznius to wear to a wedding(She was able to find something nice there a couple of years ago). My wife has a good figure and is pretty, so don’t waste your comment on a non-existent jealousy I may have. She is also of average height. She tried on at least 10 outfits – not one of them reached her knees. So she asked the sheiteled people working there why this was so if their clientele was mostly frum. They said this is what the people are buying and what they want.
You can then shrug and follow everyone else like a lemming. Or you can walk out empty handed like we did.
Simple answer then? It is high time that the frum community took their “frumkeit” more seriously. Do what is right and be a role model for your kids.July 23, 2012 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #1087316
Thanks Choppy. You’re so right. It seems the ones who are angry at me for bringing this up, instead of realizing how,others are being caused to sin thru certain peoples behavior, is indicative of issues they themselves have. As a mother of sons I’m concerned and also I really feel sorry for the women who don’t realize how many Aveiros they’re causing themselves and others who see them. Too bad not everyone’s as honest and rational as you, Choppy.July 23, 2012 9:11 pm at 9:11 pm #1087317
I agree with choppy!July 23, 2012 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm #1087318
Talk to their Rav. Maybe some thing you’ve convinced yourself are halacha are actually mishugasin or chumrot, and you may be placated by what the rav says. Or maybe he didn’t recognize his people were struggling and he follow your advice by inspiring his people in his next Shabbat shiur.
Either way, it’s possible the way you talk so hatefully of other Jews is probably a bigger blow to G-d then how these women are dressing. Or not but it’s not only everyone else who has what to work on.July 23, 2012 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #1087319
hmm.1st post yesterday, husband on bad stuff. today, irrelevant, tznius in brooklyn, typical troll topic. im gonna label this giggly-in-a-dorm-somewhere poster a troll.July 23, 2012 9:49 pm at 9:49 pm #1087320
even though i think this is a problem and also get sad and am trying to dress the right way, i think we also have to make sure to judge favorably. When i look at some of the women i realize that i know some of them and i know the way they grew up and for them-tight and to the knee skirts are a BIG step for them and we should not put them down, but instead think about their situation and give them some credit. Some people might be trying really hard even though it might be hard for us to understand! 🙂July 23, 2012 10:01 pm at 10:01 pm #1087321
Sorry, when someone is causing masses of people to get aveiros by seeing above their uncovered knees+, there is no way to favorably judge someone causing others to do aveiros.July 23, 2012 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #1087322
Flatbush, Boro Park, 5 Towns. I see it daily, women wwho are wearing shaitels but clothes that are too tight and too short. They don’t have to dress like women in Williamsburg but a little longer and looser would by stylish and halachic. The problem seems more extensive recently or I’m just finding it more distracting.July 23, 2012 10:13 pm at 10:13 pm #1087323
Ah, Brooklyn.. My favorite topic!
But I fail to see the issue:
If its your wife / daughter.. fix the problem
If its my wife / daughter.. then its done of your business.
Here’s another 311 for you: my wife, by most guidlines, can be called a tznius’dik woman. But the people in Monroe think she’s dressed like a shiksa, and the folks in <enter the MO place of your choice> think she’s an extremist.
So the bottom line is, its YOUR business if its your household.
Its none of your business if its mine.July 23, 2012 10:19 pm at 10:19 pm #1087324
bpt: It very much is everyones business if your wife or daughter parades around bp as if she is in Vegas.July 23, 2012 10:50 pm at 10:50 pm #1087325
Ohr chodosh owns bp and the bustercrown owns flatbush. How dare others walk on their streets dressed in a way they dont agree with?July 23, 2012 11:01 pm at 11:01 pm #1087326
Mr Doe, you seem to know a little too well (as you are very specific) what is “distracting” to you on other women.
If you are able to determine that a skirt is too short/too tight, and also conclude whether the woman is wearing a shaitel or not, you already spent way too much time looking and examining the other woman – and the problem lies in you! To say their mode of dress causes you to look and it is the womans fault, equates to the argument of “The devil made me do it”.
And I say this to all others on here raising this issue.
You ought to pay more attention to your own wife and less to what other peoples wives are wearing.July 23, 2012 11:09 pm at 11:09 pm #1087327
You mean in a way the Torah doesn’t agree with. Such as uncovered above the knee.July 23, 2012 11:23 pm at 11:23 pm #1087328
To all you rediculous people that say that the men are looking too close, cut it out already.
A woman on line in front of you @ the bakery is about 2 feet, probably less, Is THAT too close?
What about the whole group of women that you have to navigate around sometimes to get out of shul on Shabbos, is THAT too close?
What about the woman in front of you on line in the grocery that bends down to adjust her stroller or something and reveals about 6 to 8 inches of her lower back, is THAT too close?
The bottom line; Women are revealing parts of their body that have been off limits for years, and the standard has lowered to levels of issur. Period. Stop. There’s nothing left to say. It doesn’t make a difference if it’s my daughter, your wife or somebody else.July 23, 2012 11:51 pm at 11:51 pm #1087329
Bpt: besides for the kol yisroel areivim issue, b.c. mentioned she’s concerned because she has sons, do you still think it’s none of her business as she can ask her sons not to look?
YRK : As the tznius level in our neighborhoods keep on falling, must we keep on wandering like the proverbial jew to ever more religious communities until we end up with helbrans in canada or do we have a right to speak up and try to affect change?July 24, 2012 12:55 am at 12:55 am #1087330
bpt, it’s with logic like yours that is partially what is so wrong with the world today. The logic of if i don’t hurt you then i can do whatever i want.
Fact is, the torah says we have to look out for each other. If we’re on a boat and i decided to drill a hole in my room we’re all going to sink.July 24, 2012 1:13 am at 1:13 am #1087331
In fact, when a woman goes out improperly, she is hurting many people on the street.July 24, 2012 1:37 am at 1:37 am #1087332
My wife commented on women who wear shaitels but whose clothes are too tight and too short. “Why do they wear shaitels?” she asked. “Maybe it’s a bad hair day,” I deadpanned.July 24, 2012 1:37 am at 1:37 am #1087333
I never respond to coffee room discussions, but when I saw this topic, I felt a very strong need to say something. I completely agree 100% with bustercrown, choppy and all other similar postings. This issue of women dressing provocatively and inappropriately is a HUGE problem, if not the biggest problem of today!! It causes the Shechina to leave our midst and we desperately need HKBH’s Presence now and always! It disgusts Hashem when there is a lack of tznuis..The attitude that some people have saying; “The men shouldn’t look..it’s not the women’s fault and just mind your own business” is the complete antithesis to a Torah view on our lives. If a woman causes a man to sin through her dress, speech, mannerism etc., the man will suffer, but so will the woman, even more. And what could be more terrible than knowing that someone else is being punished because of you!! If a woman is dressed completely tzanua and nothing about her dress is inaapropriate, but a man has inappropriate thoughts, she will not be held responsible…BUT if she is NOT dressed as a Jewish woman should be then it is totally and completely her fault and she will be punished for it! I am a mid-twenty year old married woman and I can tell you honestly that when I get dressed to go out in the morning, I say a small tefillah to HKBH asking Him to help that no man sin at my fault. It could be that some of you are reading this and rolling your eyes, but it is a very serious issue!! It is possible for a woman to look pretty, put together, but in a tznuisdk way, where nobody stumbles through them. I know, because these women are my role models. I remember a teacher telling my class in school “When you look in the mirror when you get dressed, think to yourself, If Moshiach would come today, would I feel comfortable meeting the Avos and the Imahos?! And if you wouldn’t then you better change…” In a generation that is dropping at an alarming rate in immorality, let us try to rise above it. Hashem should grant all Jewish women the desire to dress in a way that will make Him proud and that will cause the Shechina to remain with us always!!July 24, 2012 1:41 am at 1:41 am #1087334
YeshivaRodefKesef: My wife wears loose filling long clothing as all frum women should. Should I avoid driving and shopping in frum neighborhoods so that my eyes don’t see this lack of tznius?July 24, 2012 2:14 am at 2:14 am #1087335
Newsflash! Not everyone agrees with your hashkafa or is obsessed with knees! There are np tznius police so get over it. You are free to practice your view on tznius ; you are not free to impose your views on others.July 24, 2012 2:16 am at 2:16 am #1087336
The Torah is obsessed that above the knees be covered at all times.July 24, 2012 2:17 am at 2:17 am #1087337
Yaakov doe.. just drive with your eyes closed. In Brooklyn you wouldn’t even stand out.July 24, 2012 2:22 am at 2:22 am #1087338
I’m from “out of town”, but do clothing stores have hechsheirim? if not, maybe they should start. It doesn’t need to become a giant taxing politicized beast with constant mashgichim fees like the food kashrus vaad business. It can be a community thing to help pressure frum clothing stores to not slide towards the malbush goyim.July 24, 2012 2:23 am at 2:23 am #1087339
Many people don’t know that whatever we do in this world has a spiritual effect in heaven.
If we do what we’re not supposed to do,
or if we don’t do what we’re supposed to do;
we suffer from our actions, as a heavenly consequence.
+ 1July 24, 2012 2:28 am at 2:28 am #1087340
@ YiddisheMamma and all other woman here-
WE MEN CAN’T HELP LOOKING IT’S CALLED NATURE!
So, if you don’t like it then cover up girl and stop blaming others.
Thank you.July 24, 2012 2:36 am at 2:36 am #1087341
I don’t think you read my post, judging from your response.July 24, 2012 2:39 am at 2:39 am #1087342
Nobody is imposing views on anyone, but one thing is very clear. Tznuis is not a CHUMRA, it’s halacha.July 24, 2012 2:46 am at 2:46 am #1087343
if you can’t help women by telling them, Everbody make sure to pray for Them! Each tefillah counts!July 24, 2012 2:47 am at 2:47 am #1087344
Why does this have to be all the man’s fault or all the woman’s fault?
Women ought to dress modestly, and men ought to have enough self control to avoid looking.July 24, 2012 2:58 am at 2:58 am #1087346
“Why is this a “problem” to YOU feel is incumbent upon YOU (and others who love to jump on the tznius bandwagon at every opportunity) to rectify? I don’t know if you are male or female so I can’t speculate as to your motives. Are you a female that feels other women are getting more attention than you? Or, are you a male that feels his wife is not “up to par” in looks and cant control his wandering eyes? Either way, you seem to have a personal issue and want other to conform to you. You will not get women in Flatbush, Manhattan,or Beverly Hills to conform to your standard. If this has become such an issue for you, then move to Ramat Bet Shemesh where these things get enforced. Or, stay home. Then, with this important issue out of the way, you can concentrate on some lesser important issues like; gezeila, sinas chinam, loshon hora, and Shmiras Shabbos just to mention a few.
Or, you can simply control your eyes like every real talmid chochom that walks the street and work on yourself to become a better person.”
Why is somebody else being concerned about the tzniyus of a third party a “problem” to YOU feel is incumbent upon YOU (and others who love to jump on the mind-your-own-business bandwagon at every opportunity) to rectify? … you seem to have a personal issue and want other to conform to your ideology of what others can or can’t be bothered about. You will not get everyone on this site to conform to your standard. If this has become such an issue for you, then move to a different website where nothing besides “being judgmental” can ever be branded as being wrong. Or, stay home. Then, with this important issue out of the way, you can concentrate on some lesser important issues like; gezeila, sinas chinam, loshon hora, and Shmiras Shabbos just to mention a few.
Or, you can simply calmly and respectfully disagree like a true baal middos who posts on this site and work on yourself to become a better person.
“Newsflash! Not everyone agrees with your hashkafa or is obsessed with knees! There are np tznius police so get over it. You are free to practice your view on tznius ; you are not free to impose your views on others.”
Newsflash! Not everyone agrees with your hashkafa or is obsessed with never ever criticizing anybody else! There are np mind-your-own-business police so get over it. You are free to practice your view on “being judgmental”; you are not free to impose your views on others.July 24, 2012 3:01 am at 3:01 am #1087347
Tznius isn’t decided by how many people of the opposite gender are looking at you. According to halacha you aren’t even supposed to be disrobed when changing into and out of your sleeping garments, but should do it under the covers of your bed. This isn’t because chazal were afraid somebody was peeping through your window, but because “m’lo kol haaretz Kvodo”. If anyone thinks having men not look is a solution, they are far from Daas Torah and completely mistaken.
The one thing I don’t get is how rabbeim in Yeshivas preach to their talmidim that wearing shorts in public is not tzniyus (unless engaging in an appropriate athletic or recreational activity that is normally done in shorts), but at the same time you can see seminary girls with their legs showing from the knee down – when everyone will often claim that girls have a higher standard for tzniyus than boys.July 24, 2012 3:05 am at 3:05 am #1087348
Not that the rabbeim in yeshivas are wrong, but where is the chinuch for these supposedly frum girls?July 24, 2012 4:35 am at 4:35 am #1087349
Theres plenty of blame to go around and I dont think the place to start is the Rabbeim or Rebbetzins….
At the end of the day every person has a yetzer hora and everyone has bechira so everyone is responsible for their choices. However what boggles my mind is that we and our Rabbonim TOLERATE stores that sell untzniusdik styles and lengths. The store owners have zero yiras shomayim and I dont know why nobody does anything about it. If the stores werent selling it the girls would have a much harder time finding it and buying it. I believe that would solve a large percentage of the problem.
However and I have said this before, in my opinion Tznius issues are indicative of other problems. A girl who is not covering her knees very likely watches movies and reads magazines which brainwash her into believing that to be happy she has to look “sexy” and glamorous…. Additionally these tv shows, movies, non Jewish music magazines and such also promote general immodesty as well as the idea that a women should try and attract men.
So if you want to solve the problem you need to clean peoples minds from the shmutz and make the untznius clothing unavailable in Jewish neighborhoods.July 24, 2012 6:07 am at 6:07 am #1087350
You’d imagine that eventually Eliyahu HaNavi would post something here and everyone would argue because nobody knows his pseudonym.July 24, 2012 7:31 am at 7:31 am #1087351
yiddishemame- well said- this is a major reason why moshiach doesnt come- I feel..
Its a major problem..
and about monroe..if you are not dressed zniusdik, ye maybe they will look at you, but if you dont have the same style as them who cares. they will not say you are a shiksa..July 24, 2012 7:36 am at 7:36 am #1087352
wiy= you are 100% correct!
and the storekeepers say this is what the costumer wants…
and what if the storekeeper says ..’sorry we dont carry those’
the problem is woman are just purchasing their clothing a size or two too small.July 24, 2012 8:26 am at 8:26 am #1087353
Move to Gateshead. We really don’t have such issues here. Maybe a miniscule handful of people do – but I don’t know them. I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve seen anyone conforming to anything but the highest standards of tznius since I moved here.
Major difference, I suppose, is that in Gateshead we rarely see any non-chareidim (ie MO), since the kehilla is 100% chareidi. I think in America the chareidim are jealous of the MO who dress a lot ‘lighter’ than the chareidim, and they imitate them. In Gateshead it’s just chareidim and non-Jews, so I suppose it’s less confusing.
Having Rav Falk right around the corner might also make a difference, of course!July 24, 2012 11:12 am at 11:12 am #1087354
If it bothers you so much, don’t wring your hands and whine about it on a public forum, speak to the female in question, her husband, her father, rebbetzin or rav. Here you accomplish nothing and based on previous posts, I agree with others you mentioned it, come across as very trollish.. Speaking to one of the aforementioned people might yield results.
And yes, halacha is clear about the rules of tznius. It rules regulating the bashing of entire groups of women, publicly berating and mussaring them, are also clear.July 24, 2012 2:02 pm at 2:02 pm #1087355
Tochacha (mussar) is a halachic chiyuv to give. It isn’t optional al pi halacha to ignore.
If you saw a group of beis yaakov girls sitting down with a cheeseburger and soda every day for lunch at the window seat of your neighborhood McDonalds, your obligation to intervene would be the same as when a group of beis yaakov girls are walking around the neighborhood with their hemline above their knees.
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