December 8, 2008 9:01 am at 9:01 am #651254
Why is it that it seems most posters feel if an outright halacha is “too hard” for the “hamon am” it is suddenly a CHUMRA?
if pple would ask their rabbonim, who heads are in torah all day, they could find out mekoros for what they seem to think are chumros! When the torah says something is assur, then HALACHA = the way we should (lit. walk) live our lives. If you believe in matan torah, believe in halacha, and ask your local Rav for a mekor…clearly the talmidei chachomim are not on this board (tho it seems there are many potential ones if all our time wasn’t wasted on here, myself included – as far as the wasting time, not T”CH as I’m not a male :p)
and to 000646 – ur right, a lot of “extras” today ARE minhag hamakom, and even today, if you went to live in certain parts of Africa you wouldn’t need stockings or sandals, you could walk barefoot like everybody else WHEN THAT IS THE ACCEPTED NORM and even considered dignified in that locale – if this is really a pressing issue for you, whatever floats your boat. Please let me know the moving date :p
But when gedolim do set up takanos, or put gedarim on what minhag hamakom for that place, they have reasons rooted in the torah for that (maybe because of all the pritzus today? kabbala? but I’m sure they have even greater reasons that we can’t understand). and as long as you follow ur local rav, even if it’s not following all the “extras” BECAUSE YOUR RAV TOLD YOU IT’S OKAY, then fine – but don’t blast those who are following THEIR rabbonim.
I happen to live in a community in Israel that has many more takanos of minhag hamakom than most of what you know of or is written here, and like a “baal teshuva” I can’t say I am among the top of those who follow every hiddur…but I am working on it, with a Rav, with taking on a little bit each time of what I can handle…I think whoever is trying to grow, and/or follow their Rav, is doing the right thing.
May we be zocheh to bring mashiach with our growth in tznius…and if we learned anything from a bit over a week ago, maybe we can stop the machlokes back & forth, and have achdus with each of us trying to be the best that we can be!December 8, 2008 1:13 pm at 1:13 pm #651255
if you could maybe explain why it isnt so (this applies as well to most of my other comments you disagree with and you were unable to explain why i was wrong) maybe wouldnt feel a need to write it againDecember 8, 2008 2:34 pm at 2:34 pm #651256
ujm, the original post was definitely not correct, and doesn’t show the halachic requirements at all. It’s been discussed already, but just to name a few:
Wearing dirty clothing isn’t immodest. It may be inappropriate, but it isn’t immodest. If you walk outside wearing dirty clothing by mistake, you’re not transgressing anything.
Bright colored clothing can be permitted. Can you show me somewhere it says it’s not? It’s just a chumrah, nothing more.
Who says an unmarried woman’s hair must be tied back?
Who says makeup and perfume are only for use with a woman’s husband?
Again, the original poster listed mostly chumras, not halachos.December 8, 2008 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #651257
000: I actually enjoy seeing you post the same comment 5 times per thread, on three separate threads. Keep it up. If you don’t understand or like the answers provided, this probably makes you feel good, and I sure wouldn’t want to stop you from feeling good about yourself. 🙂December 8, 2008 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #651258
dveykus613, I’m not blasting someone for doing what their Rav says to do. I’m blasting someone for thinking that my Rav is wrong, and for trying to put their chumros on me. If I follow the minhagim in my community, and the rules set down by the Rabbonim where I live, it doesn’t make the clothing my wife wears un-tznius. According to our Rav, it’s fine. Don’t judge me based on the chumros you follow. That, I have a problem with.December 8, 2008 3:31 pm at 3:31 pm #651260
Feif Un- Correct…If you read my post, that is 100% what I was saying…as long as you ARE asking YOUR RAV, and following his psak, you are doing the right thing, and anyone who judges you is wrong. At the same time, I still take exception to people calling many tznius things chumros – it may depend on the locale (minhag hamakom), but for those given places it is HALACHA not CHUMRA…December 8, 2008 3:50 pm at 3:50 pm #651261supermomMember
I happened to have been present at the tznius asifa in Lakewood.. i can tell you that for almost all the things on the list there is a makor in halachah. Why wouldn’t someone want to abide by all these halachos if it makes our camp holy? The brachos we are promised in exchange to keeping all these beautiful halchos and keeping our homes holy are definitely well worth it!December 8, 2008 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #651262
supermom – I have a problem with people taking on so many chumras relating to tznius, shoving it down everyone’s throats BUT still not internalizing Torah. There are plenty of people who are so strict with their tznius levels (more than halacha requires) but then run cash businesses. Why not follow halacha on all levels before trying to be so stringent in one area? Especially because many times its more of a “what’s not nice we dont show” than a desire to keep halacha so absolutely.December 8, 2008 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #651263
Nowadays in America it is considerd the norm in society for woman to wear sandals (or open toed shoes at fancy events) without stockings in the summer.
If you could please direct me to the comments were you explain how i am mistaken i would greatly appreciate it.
you could find a mekor in halacha for just about anything both lechumra or lkula.December 8, 2008 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #651264
Post the Mekor!December 8, 2008 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #651265
supermom: where is there a makor that single women need to wear their hair tied back? Where does it say that dirty clothing is untznius? Yes, it’s a problem for other reasons (it’s probably a kiddush Hashem to appear presentable, as well as kavod habrios), but to say it’s untznius? Where does it say makeup and perfume are only for your husband?
dveykus613: Even in many communities where the Rabbonim encourage certain things, I’m sure if you ask the Rabbonim, they’ll tell you that many of the things are chumros, not straight out chiyuvim. They may want their community to follow these chumros, and if you live there, you should listen to your Rav, but the Rabbonim themselves will often tell you that it’s only a chumrah.
I agree that if your Rav paskens that something is assur, then it’s halachah. However, most people just never ask.
Judaism supposedly prides itself on encouraging people to ask questions. Unfortunately, many supposedly “yeshivish”, frum circles severely discourage asking questions. It happened to me, it happened to my wife, and it happened to many other people I know.
It happened to my wife with regard to tznius issues. She’s a BT, and when we got engaged, she wanted to learn the halachos of covering her hair. She asked a few people for sources – books, tapes, etc. she could learn from. She was told, ‘Why do you want to know the reasons? It’s das Yehudis, and you don’t ask questions – you just follow it!” At that point, she didn’t want to cover her hair. She only did it because she knew I wouldn’t marry her if she didn’t. After we were married, she finally found someone who was willing to explain it to her. Now, she willingly covers her hair.December 8, 2008 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #651266
“Nowadays in America its considered the norm for women to…”
wear short-sleeve shirts
wear tight clothes
wear attention-grabbing clothes
“Nowadays in America its considered the norm for women to wear”December 8, 2008 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #651267fellowjewMember
“Nowadays in America it is considerd the norm in society for woman to wear sandals (or open toed shoes at fancy events) without stockings in the summer.”
Chaval! Makes me sad to read that it’s validated here! Or was it a joke?
Years ago when women went barefoot they wore flowing robes, not short skirts…December 8, 2008 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #651268
If somthing is not uncovering an ervah (and lfi plenty of shitas the leg below the knee is not one) it depends on what is considerd normal in the society that you are in what is considerd prust
“Attention grabbing” is a term that changes from place to place: in Europe 500 years ago or baval in the times of the gemara a woman wearing what is considerd very tzniusdick today would probably be considerd to be wearing somthing attention grabbing. what was considerd attention grabbing 50 years ago may not be attention grabbing todayDecember 8, 2008 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #651269squeakParticipant
Trudat, Joseph. But I think you missed the point by comparing open toed sandals to the items on your list. Bare feet is shyach to be mutar, the rest of your list is not.December 8, 2008 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #651270
Joseph, do you not see a difference between a woman wearing a miniskirt and a woman wearing sandals?December 8, 2008 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #651271supermomMember
what you are saying might be true since not everyone is perfect, but it still does not detract from the issurim of tznius. Everyone has to do their best in all areas. Just because someone keeps all chumros in one area and forgets about another is a reason for you to say all or nothing??? What about the rest of the people.. the ones who make a kiddush hashem and actually walk around like Jewish Princesses instead of trying to blend in with the non-jewish society and also make a kiddush hashem in other areas including business? Don’t just point fingers. two wrongs don’t make a right.December 8, 2008 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #651272
Thank you Joseph, kudos for answering for me! 🙂
000646 – The Rabbonim decide what is the norm…they are “kovea”…
feif un – I believe they would say it’s HALACHA not CHUMRA….however, feel free to ask your local rabbi and get back to me. It’s unfortunate to hear the story about your wife (at least a happy ending b”H) but it’s totally wrong for people to give the wrong impression of yeshivish/charedi Judaism just because they don’t have the patience, or knowledge, to answer her. They should at least have the patience to refer her to someone who could answer her Qs…
Please don’t judge the Rabbis though based on the few (you don’t say if they were Rabbis or regular “yeshivish” people)…find one that IS patient and will hear you out & explain things and you can go with them with any of ur Qs…sometimes you need to speak to several before finding a G-d fearing Rav you “click” with (or at least who’s da’as torah resonates with you). Good luck to you and your wife! 🙂December 8, 2008 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #651273
on what do you base your statement? i dont think any rov would tell you that if somthing shows hefkeirus in a certain place that you can wear it even if you have tsuvas written in a diffrent time or place saying that it is muttar.
I dont see why it should be any diffrent by being motter somthing (just because somthing was ossur in a diffrent time and place because it was considerd to loud or prust by the general society in that place and time if it is no longer considerd that way by society nowadays why should it still be ossur?)
If you can explain why it should please post an explanation.December 8, 2008 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #651274
supermom – if someone is concentrating so hard on one mitzvah, to the point of adding on chumras that take a lot of their energy, and then transgress other areas that is a problem. If wearing sandals is halachically ok and you concentrate so hard on not wearing them (even though you want to, you restrain yourself)but then are over on actually issurim?
My point is not to transgress halacha but dont concetrate on chumra to the exclusion of other things. It happens way to often in Jewish circles.December 8, 2008 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #651275
and this is all besides the point that many rabbis are motter not wearing stockingsDecember 8, 2008 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #651276
000646 – your question, especially the second part, was very unclear…please clarify your question and I will try to answer…December 8, 2008 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #651277hmhMember
What happened to common sense? I’m finding it very entertaining to read about how people take this and other subjects way out of context and get so extreme. I don’t think this is what Hashem has in mind for Jews accepting one another. Yes, we need to dress sensibly but this is getting ridiculous. We need to move beyond how we dress to how we act with one another and how we relate to those who observe Judaism differently. We are all Jews and people relate to G-d on their own levels.December 8, 2008 7:47 pm at 7:47 pm #651278
Sure! it was,
I think any rov would tell you that even though a rov said that somthing is not prust if you find yourself in a place were that item is considerd by the general (goyishe) society in that place to show hefkeirus it would be ossur to wear.
so you see that what is considerd prust does depend on the general society you are in (as long as you are not showing an ervah)
so why should it be any diffrent if a rov asssired somthing because at the time or society were he was it was considerd prust or loud (wich is probably the only reason you would assir somthing that is not showing an ervah)
if it is no longer considerd by society to show hefkeirus and be prust wich is the only reason it was ossur in the first place it should now be muttar.
If you have an explanation why we should assir things because of trends in goyishe society and not be mattir for the same reason (as long as you are not showing an ervah) please post it.December 8, 2008 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #651279
hmh, some peoples common sense is to drive to shul on Shabbos. Youre not going to go to the ”extreme” and tell him better not to go to shul than drive there, now are you? Its just a matter of how we relate to those who observe Judaism differently, relating to G-d on their own (Shabbos driving) level, eh?December 8, 2008 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #651280intellegentMember
Why are you so obssessed with cash businesses…?
Anyway, who said that some people are obsessed with one chumra and forget about all else. That may be true for some people, but what has that got to do with the subject?? If Tznius is being discussed, other mitzvos don’t necessarily have to be mentioned! If you tell someone that it is wrong to have a cash business and they answer you, yeah, but some people are so busy not having cash businesses, they forget about Tznius.. You will think they fell off the wall. what has one got to do with an other.
Also, what people are failing to realize is that there is an other aspect to some of these “guidelines” that are not necessarily Tznius per se. We are told to be different than the goyim. So following their styles and going after all the silly trends, is wrong even if it can be defined as Tznius. Of course some will argue, so does that mean that we can’t wear button down shirts, stockings etc. because after all it started by the goyim? Obviously it is not so clear cut. Some will say that denim is OUT and some think that denim is fine. There are some things though that if you have a sensitivity for, it should really be obvious. But of course there will always be different definitions.
Also, as long as people aren’t causing tzaar to others, it is sometimes a good thing for someone to feel very strongly about the things they do. If everyone would be milchig about yiddishkeit, where would we be?December 8, 2008 8:03 pm at 8:03 pm #651281squeakParticipant
so joey, is comparing sandals to miniskirts common sense or “extreme”? You relate to G-d on your own level, eh?December 8, 2008 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #651282hmhMember
While I don’t drive to shul on Shabbos, I would not tell someone who does this that they are wrong and I am right. Perhaps this is a person who would otherwise be going shopping, going to the movies, gambling at the racetracks, etc. We need to be accepting of others who may not be as observant as we are. I don’t feel that one Jew has the right to look down on another Jew because of a different level and way of religious observance. I am doing what is right for me and this person is doing what is right for them.December 8, 2008 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #651283
000646- btw, please see my response in “random Qs” to your other Qs…
as far as this, now u are much clearer, thank you! I got all of it, except the last sentence – I’m not sure what u want me to prove, but overall I do agree with what you wrote – things change based on minhag hamakom and different generations (ie even for men I’m sure moshe rabbeinu and the avos dressed differently than current charedim, but I’m just as sure that if they lived today they’d dress the way venerable rosh yeshivas do today).
The caveat emptor here is when you say “if it is no longer considerd by society to show hefkeirus and be prust wich is the only reason it was ossur in the first place it should now be muttar”, the problem is the age old question (at least on these threads!) of who “society” is, and if you are saying that the demoral goyish society should be “kovea” minhag hamakom for us, in which case we should not be dressed almost at all! In meah shearim the minhag hamakom is one way, in lakewood another, in florida another, and in africa another….but the people who ARE kovea it, l’fi DAAS TORAH, are the gedolim of our generation and/or the local G-d fearing rabbonim of that place.December 8, 2008 10:48 pm at 10:48 pm #651284
Again, if somthing was considerd in (goyishe) society were you live to show hefkeirus i think any rov would agree you cant wear that piece of clothing
If we dont get our standards from goyishe society then why just because somthing is considerd hefker or pritzusdick in the general (goyishe) society should we be not allowed to wear it?
if we do get our standards (as long as you are not showing an ervah obviosly) from goyishe society then if somthing that is not revealing an ervah and is not considerd pritzusdick by goyishe society you fnd yourself in such as not wearing stockings why should it be ossur now?December 8, 2008 10:58 pm at 10:58 pm #651285
rubber ducky, I haven’t made any comments regarding sandals, despite your miscomprehension.December 9, 2008 2:20 am at 2:20 am #651287
since you are so sure that am wrong please either refer me to the post were you prove that i am wrong or post a reason why my post is not correct (because my rebbi says so is not a reason.)December 9, 2008 2:32 am at 2:32 am #651288
000: Only if you repeatedly copy your last post three times in this thread, plus on at least two more threads.December 9, 2008 2:39 am at 2:39 am #651289lesschumrasParticipant
“hmh, some peoples common sense is to drive to shul on Shabbos. Youre not going to go to the ”extreme” and tell him better not to go to shul than drive there, now are you? Its just a matter of how we relate to those who observe Judaism differently, relating to G-d on their own (Shabbos driving) level, eh”
Joseph, you are mixing apples ( a tznius chumrah ) and oranges ( drining on Shabbos, an issur ) which clearly doesn’t make much common senseDecember 9, 2008 2:56 am at 2:56 am #651290
very mature answer
I guess you dont, do us all a favor and grow upDecember 9, 2008 3:11 am at 3:11 am #651291
his point is that torah is torah. halacha is halacha. there’s no “more assur” and “less assur”
and to the general public: i’ll spare the moderator from saying this:
PLEASE don’t bring up the whole driving on shabbos issue. there’s another whole thread on that one.
it seems like everybody is auditioning now :o) — YW Moderator-72December 9, 2008 3:25 am at 3:25 am #651292
To you everything is a chumra that you want to eliminate. Tznius is halacha, not chumra.December 9, 2008 3:29 am at 3:29 am #651293The Big OneParticipant
I wish everyone would stop arguing so much and start doing what is required in Hilchos Tznius.
Looking at suraschier’s opening post on this thread would be a good initial step. Its the basics, and if your Rov holds of additional stringencies, Kol Hakovod!December 9, 2008 3:34 am at 3:34 am #651294
the big one
the argument here is “what exactly are the basics?”December 9, 2008 5:09 am at 5:09 am #651295qaMember
I am so happy to see that people care enough about tznius that there is a discussion of Tznius Standards.December 9, 2008 1:44 pm at 1:44 pm #651296
The Big One: no, the initial post does not contain the basics. It contains many chumros. Can you find a mekor for everything that’s listed there?
Joseph: yes, tznius is halachah. The question is, how much is halachah, and where does it become chumros? Many things discussed in this thread are chumros, not the basic halachos of tznius.
Obviously, certain parts are basic halachah. A woman can’t walk around in the summer time wearing a bathing suit. However, some people are machmir to wear sleeves which go all the way down to the wrist. Others only cover the elbows. Still others have sleeves down until the elbows. Who are you to say what the basic halachah is, and where the chumros begin?December 9, 2008 2:04 pm at 2:04 pm #651297Toras MosheParticipant
I just took a look at the first post on this thread; the basics she mentions are just that – basic tznius standards.
I think we all would do well by using the first post on this thread (maybe printing it), and using it as a handy guide to basic standards for tznius.December 9, 2008 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #651298
Will anyone bring any Mekor to anything on the list without just repeating that the list is wonderful!!?
ThanksDecember 9, 2008 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #651299
question: is there actually anywere in the torah that states to specific obligations? no! all we find are pesukim that allude to the actual requirements. so the basics are all derabanon. which is just as important. (if you disagree PLEASE don’t let us know about it. we’re not interested.)
way back, some things just didn’t exist. women did not wear pants. period. so obviously when the style came around, rabbonim decided to assur it. there is no clear-cut “list” because new things are constantly being added.
just because our generation is numb to the concept, doesn’t make it muttar. it just makes the world a place of idiots.December 9, 2008 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #651300
“way back, some things just didn’t exist. women did not wear pants”
Are you dealing with the Beged Ish or Tznius issue?
anyone who has a tshuva on the items on the list before some cut off date, lets say 20 years ago, would be helpful. (within then you can find anything). Also helpful would be a tshuva from an accepted Gadol, even if its recent.
Disclaimer: I am not commenting whether the list is correct or not. I would like to convince others (and myself), and need a Mekor for that.December 9, 2008 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #651301
what makes a pair of hot pink pants begged ish? not too many men would wear that.December 9, 2008 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #651302
The answer to your question actualy is YES it does say in the Gemara wich parts of the body are considerd ervah
The gemara is torah shebal peh that was passed down to us from person to person directly from har sinai.
to compare the words of those gemaras wich are explaining what is meant by a possuk as was passed down directly person to person from har sinai to a nowadays godol’s opinion of what is to “flashy” or “loud” when even the godol is not claiming to have heard this directly from somone who heard it at har sinai (as the gemara did) is just wrong and missing the entire point.December 9, 2008 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #651303
my last post was reffering to your post 2 posts ago!December 9, 2008 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #651304
rubbing in the fact that i’m at a disadvantage because i don’t learn gemara?? not fair!
anyway, that doesn’t reflect specific articles of clothing, does it?
also, (i’m gonna sound really dumb but like i said: i’m at an unfair disadvantage) gemara is torah she’baal peh. what’s written in the gemara is considered derabanon?
and btw we still have to listen to what the gedolim say. regardless.December 9, 2008 9:57 pm at 9:57 pm #651305
Brookyln, there are many different halachic opinions on what constitutes dressing tzanua. For example, my Rabbi allows me to wear pants (I need them for work). He also allows slits and shoes/sandals without socks. So I am following my Rabbi, but the OP didnt allow for any of that! She just stated “her list.” I am not saying my list is for everyone, just that her list is not either.
As for her point about women covering all their hair (except possibly for a tefach) – this is a machlokes also! There are opinions that say only a HEAD covering is neccesary, there are those that say not even a tefach can show. That list caters to a specific group of people and is not halacha across the board.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.