Tznius Standards

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  • #651365
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Joseph, that doesn’t answer if its halacha or not. When people are keeping chumras, they should KNOW they are.

    #651366
    Joseph
    Participant

    I’m talking about plain halacha, not chumras.

    #651367
    Josh31
    Participant

    The Bar is being raised higher and higher and too many people are falling off r’l.

    Finally there will be only a few who can keep to the lofty standard and Moshiah will have to come. But no one will come out to greet him.

    The women will not come out to greet him because of tznius.

    The men will not come out to greet him because of bitul Torah.

    #651368
    beeps
    Participant

    What are you trying to say, Josh31?

    #651369
    Joseph
    Participant

    au contraire

    #651370
    shaatra
    Member

    SJS: ok, and what if my minhag hamakom is both? Majority of my community does not wear socks. (Nor did anyone in syria in those days)

    #651371
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Sorry shaatra, I have no idea. Definitely ask your LOR.

    #651372
    shaatra
    Member

    Ames: but no one started wearing until recently… And it definitely didn’t come from our minhag because its not our minhag

    #651373
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    ames: Because if they dont wear socks, then they are not religious! 🙂

    Ask your OWN LOR, maybe someone who is familiar or within your community.

    #651374
    Josh31
    Participant

    Do we want to be a nation or a pious sect?

    #651375
    Joseph
    Participant

    A pious nation.

    #651376
    shaatra
    Member

    Gavra: than I guess I’m not really religous 🙂

    I try to wear stockings but I don’t always. It depends where I go. I wear to school, shul, lakewood, weddings, engagements, brit milas….

    #651377
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Ames that depends on what you hold. To me, if you have to cover your ankles according to your Rav, sheer stockings wouldnt qualify. Would a sheer shirt qualify? But then again, I don’t think ankles are defined at shok…so it may be different.

    #651378
    oomis
    Participant

    “shaatra, the majority of religious girls do wear socks. The majority of those who don’t wear socks don’t follow the letter of the law in other areas as well. I’m not saying wearing socks is halacha, honestly, I have no idea. I’m just saying I don’t think you can say that the minhag hamakom of our community is not to wear socks. “

    With all due respect, ames, I doubt that you personally know the majority of religious girls. There are all types of very religious girls and I personally know many in E”Y and here in NY who always wear sockless sandals. Their husbands learn every day, they themselves daven three times (yes, 3x) a day, they are very strict in their shmiras Shabbos and Taharas Hamishpacha, and I am sorry, but it is loshon hara for you to imply that if they do not wear socks that they “don’t follow the letter of the law in other areas as well.” You have no such personal knowledge of that, and it is EXTREMELY unfair to characterize them in that way, IMO.

    #651379
    lm
    Participant

    TZNIUS IS OUR PRIDE AND GLORY!

    The Torah states:

    ???????? ?????? ??????

    Holy You Should Be!

    By wearing immodest clothing we distance the Shechina (Divine Presence) from us.

    As the Torah states:

    ??? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??????

    Immodesty should not be seen amongst you!

    Or Hashem will withdraw his presence from you!

    When the Shechina departs, we are stripped of our protection ?”?

    Maybe this is why so many tzoros, illness, crushing poverty and unbearable tragedies, have befallen us.

    In the words of the Holy Chofetz Chaim tzl in a famous letter:

    To a large degree this despicable style negates the statement of the Torah:

    Tight-fitting, short, flashy clothing, low cut necklines, long extravagant sheitels, etc. are contrary to Tznius standards,

    Dear Sisters!

    Let us wear clothes that are befitting for Jewish Daughters. This will cause the Shechina to reside in our midst. This will bring many blessings upon ourselves, and ultimately bring the Geulah Sheleima ??”?

    ????? ???? ??????? ?????? ?????! The key to our salvation is in your hands!

    #651381
    Joseph
    Participant

    This is fitting for this thread. It was posted by someone a few days ago on the main YWN site, and am re-posting here:

    My Dear Sisters,

    I am writing to you in my last moments, with the last threads of my strength. I am writing to you with blood and tears, from the bottom of my broken and tormented heart.

    Yes, I, Revital Avraham, 19 years old, am standing on the threshold of death, so young, but already feeling all the gates of life shutting slowly before me. I am like a beautiful flower closing its petals.

    Like all of you, I had my dreams about love, husband, children and social position.

    But Hashem has decided otherwise, and I know today that if I had lived differently, this would have not happened.

    And then I received a second sign from above. One night I had a dream about my grand-mother. She was sitting on a stone and crying. I asked her why she was crying, and she pointed to her head without saying a word. I woke up very upset, but I forgot the whole thing very quickly, and this second sign melted away without any thought.

    Revital Avraham

    Dear Sisters, our modesty is our power! How important it is!

    Revital died a short time after writing this letter Her last will was a request to publish it.

    May her memory be blessed and her message embraced by all!

    Thank you Joseph(f). Mepal posted this in the CR months ago

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/good-forwards/page/5#post-60745

    #651382
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Oomis, I thought Ames was talking about the Syrian community? Since that is a smaller subsect, she may be able to make that statement. May…I don’t know.

    Ames, I don’t know how minhag hamakom is handled. Maybe GAW can explain?

    #651383
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    BSD:

    To the best of my memory, I have heard from a Rav who is “well respected” across the spectrum (mechaber of a number of seforim accepted by both the right & left) that Minhag Hamakom depends on where you live. Ask your own local Rav what your Minhag Hamakom is.

    Of course, its always a good thing to be more Tzanuah (without the platitudes, please), but the issue here is being FORCED to follow a standard that is more “chumrah of the week” and “Ish HaYashar Be’Einav Yaase” vs. actual halacha.

    All of these issues bring me toi think of the Medrash regarding Chava & the snake, where the snake pushed Chava into the tree and she didn’t die, and the snake used the argument to get her to eat from the Eitz Hadaas. SJS put it well: Chumras are all and good for those who keep them, but its a nichshal to turn the chumras into Halacha.

    That being said, the opposite is also true; its easy to be Over if one is not willing to go the extra step. The only answer is to have a Rav (not Mentor, Sem teacher, etc., but a Rav) who can guide you as to what YOU should be doing.

    #651384
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    ames:

    You should always listen to your husband. 🙂

    May you have a child like Bava Ben Buta.

    #651385
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    End of ninth perek of Nedarim.

    #651386
    tzippi
    Member

    Re Joseph and the forwarded forward: I’m not usually moved by tznius solves everything appeals. However, if I hear it straight from a person involved, such as Yossi-in-Japan’s sister, even if it doesn’t sit well I have to give it some thought, and appreciate her pain. When I read a forward such as this, my first reaction is, is there a frum Snopes?

    #651387
    Joseph
    Participant

    I’m not usually moved by tznius

    You ought to be.

    I have to give it some thought

    You should.

    #651388
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    To clarify:

    When I said “where you live”, it does not include not yet frum jews or non jews.

    #651389
    oomis
    Participant

    oomis, shaatra and I were talking about our little community. No need to get excited.

    IMO, it should not be said about anyone in any community (and I am sure yours is not so little). And believe me, THIS is not excited 😉

    #651390
    shaatra
    Member

    Ames: little community? Not at all lol. But yes the frum ones of the community wear socks. Just to hard for me

    #651391
    shaatra
    Member

    Ames: that’s beautiful btw. My fathers whole family (a lot of siblings) is very religous- lakewood bmg full time learners ect. My mothers sibling were regular religous but wore pants. Now the past 2 years all her siblings (all married) have grown so much its amazing! They all wear only skirts now…and they don’t even go to black hat school. Its really so nice and I’m so happy for them

    #651392
    oomis
    Participant

    “Please don’t lecture me on something you don’t anything about.”

    I wasn’t, and I would not presume to do so. Your statements seemed very general and I did not notice a mention of the Sefardic community in the particular one which I happened to see. So if in any post you did specify the Sefardic community and I happened not to see it or pay attention to that – my bad. Sorry. As to minhag hamakom, it can only be followed when it does not contravene halacha. The issue is what exactly constitutes the actual (non-chumrah)halacha, and in that area, there are shades of gray in which not all people seem to be in agreement. I do not feel that because a woman doesn’t wear socks or does wear pants (I don’t care WHAT community she is in), that it automatically means that she does not follow other halachos properly. I am acquainted with my fair share of sefardic women in my community and its environs, and if anything, they are MORE makpid in certain halachos than are the comparable Ashkenazic women in the neighborhood. I don’t think it is ever a good idea to make generalizations about anyone. Just how I feel. I didn’t mean to sound like I was lecturing. I don’t like to be lectured to, either, so I understand your objection.

    #651393
    Jewess
    Member

    Ames, I am really surprised that you write this: “The majority of those who don’t wear socks don’t follow the letter of the law in other areas as well.” I believe that I am in the same community that you’re in and I must disagree with that. To make a general statement like that is unfair to so many women in our community.

    Great for you that you cover your hair and ankles, and God bless you for that, but to make a blanket statement like you did is wrong and makes the women of our community look bad to others. You may be speaking from personal experience, but it’s untrue that the majority of women who don’t wear socks don’t follow the halacha properly.

    #651394
    A600KiloBear
    Participant

    BS”D

    If there were a frum Snopes, the story of Revital Avraham (I won’t put AH after her name because I do not believe she ever existed) would be #1 on the site. The site that this letter came from is full of bubba maises of the worst kind and frankly seems to be the work of a recent baal tshuva who has a good imagination and is deep in the throes of BT syndrome.

    Art imitates hoaxes – there is a parody of this kind of story out there which you can find by Googling “Shprintzy Landau”. The author of the parody had no idea of the Revital Avraham story until he had a link to it posted as a response to his parody.

    #651395
    shaatra
    Member

    Ames: I really don’t know what inspired them. But one of my aunts was about to put back pants on because it was hard for her and her children (ages 5-15 girls) were all like “ma no you can’t do that!!” And they go to coed school…but they are so proud of her and that inspired her to keep wearing only skirts

    #651396
    shaatra
    Member

    Ames: yeah I know but its really been happening soo much lately with so many people all different ages!! I was in the supermarket yesterday and saw a mother who I know from around in a wig and long sleeves I was so shocked because 2 months ago I saw her wearing pants…I felt like proud when I was looking at her! But also the thing is the community doesn’t put anyone down when they want to grow, they encourage it. I never had people looking down on me or anything. They always tell me how they look up to me!

    #651397
    oomis
    Participant

    “oomis, I really don’t understand why you keep bringing proofs from Sephardic women outside our community. I too know many Sephardic women who are stricter with halacha than some Ashkenaz women. So what? What does that have to do with anything? I’m talking about the Brooklyn and Deal Syrian Community. You’re invited to come to my house anytime you want, and you’ll see for yourself what we’re all about. Until you’ve been here, you really don’t understand.”

    Ames, honestly, I do not know why you are so defensive. I am not bringing “proofs” of anything. I was responding to the idea that was expressed that if a woman wears pants or sandals without sox, that automatically it must mean she is lax in other areas of halacha. That was what you had stated unless, I am mistaken (and I am too tireed to go back to the original posts again, so if I am wrong, as I said, I am sorry). I was saying that I am eprsonally acquainted with many sefardic women who are extra makpid on halachos that their ashkenazic skirt/stocking wearing counterparts are not. Why do you seem to feel I have some hidden agenda here. I simply expressed a statement of fact. There is nothing to understand. I am simply making the point that it is never a good idea to make generalizations about anybody. Would you not agree with that as being a positive trait that we could all follow? Hevei dan l’chaf zechus…

    #651398
    shaatra
    Member

    Ladies ladies let’s be nice 🙂

    #651399
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Ames, its so interesting what an outsider perspective of Sephardim is.

    I was always under the impression that sephardim were much more machmir in many areas (especially taharat hamishpacha) even if they weren’t shomer shabbat. Or they would drive to shul, but pray fervently….and the only women I know who wear a sheitel are the ashkenazi women who married sephardim.

    Most of the sephardi women I know are VERY observant, much more so than ashkenazim.

    If you get an answer regarding the minhag hamakom, I would be very curious. On the one hand, if they are shomer shabbat and shomer kashrut, I would expect them to be considered in the minhag hamakom. Why? I don’t know…I guess because everyone is lax in halacha in some areas…

    #651400
    Feif Un
    Participant

    Women wearing pants is not so simple.

    At first, there was a problem with it because pants were a man’s garment. However, that changed many years ago. Pants are now regularly worn by women, and are even made specifically for women. I was told by more than one Rav that lo silbash does not apply to women wearing pants anymore.

    The reason usually given now is that pants usually draw attention to the legs and other areas, and are therefore not tznius. However, that doesn’t apply to all pants. Some pants are more tznius than a lot of skirts that women wear.

    As I said, it’s not a simple matter.

    #651402
    shaatra
    Member

    Ames: I was kidding 🙂

    #651404
    jphone
    Member

    I’m referring to the truly ignorant and stupid comment about women who dont wear socks.

    Which part of the “shok” do the ankles belong to that halacha requires them to be covered by a pair of socks?

    The Mishna Berura defines the “Shok” as the part of the leg from the torso down to the bottom of the knee (perhaps just below the end of the knee). The ankles are quite a bit lower.

    Certainly many poskim from the previous generation as well as contemporary poskim disagree with this interpretation, but the MBs interpretation seems to have been accepted by many communities long before YWN and its forum for those who wish to make ignorant and stupid comments.

    #651405
    oomis
    Participant

    “oomis, wearing pants is being lax in areas of halacha! “

    You are right – in THAT specific area of halacha, but it has no bearing on their observance of kashrus, shmiras shabbos, mikvah attendance, etc. That’s all I was saying. And please believe me, I was not saying anything to be mean-spirited to you in any way chas v’sholom. I hope I am making that clear. I know that it is hard to guage what someone’s intent is on a message board. My hashkafa is to try and not be judgmental (I guess we all are, at times), and to hear what another person is saying, even when I strongly disagree. I am also very makpid on not making generalizations, based on ym personal hashkafa, because there are so many valid ways of looking at the same halacha, unless it is a black and white issue. Minhag Hamakom usually still requires that we not transgress halacha l’maiseh, but it leaves room for leniency in some of the “grayer” areas.

    #651406
    bein_hasdorim
    Participant

    Feif Un: good point, very true.

    #651407
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    So how do we judge minhag hamakom? Everyone has areas they are lax on, just some more shown than others (like dressing non-tzanua vs lashon hara). So, if someone is generally following halacha (shomer shabbat, kashrut, taharat hamishpacha etc), but doesn’t do one area…do we discount them from minhag hamakom? Because then no one would be included.

    #651408
    oomis
    Participant

    I’m glad we can agree finally!

    🙂

    #651409
    Joseph
    Participant

    If someone is being lax with halacha, then they are not counted for that mitzvah.

    #651410

    Joseph:

    I’ve thought a while about the letter you reposted, and I’ve decided that–however uncomfortable this might make some people–there is no practical purpose in sharing it. Why, you ask?

    It is never appropriate to decide that you and you alone know the real reason for Hashem’s gezeirah. The best and only action to be taken should you–G-d forbid–find yourself subject to an obviously harsh decree is to look within yourself and fix what needs to be fixed; looking outward and judging others is not the answer.

    As a letter detailing the poor young woman’s introspection and teshuva, it is a painful and sobering piece. She acted appropriately: she acknowledged what she felt to be her sins and truly regretted them. It is questionable, however, what lesson is supposed to be learned by applying this letter to EVERYONE. “If you dress immodestly, Hashem will kill you”?

    If that is not the conclusion to be drawn, and I am mistaken, than please do explain what the purpose of publicizing this letter could possibly be.

    #651411
    Joseph
    Participant

    David: It is to your credit that you thought about the letter for a while. The correct conclusion IMHO is to simply realize that ones actions has heavenly consequences.

    #651412
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Joseph, are you really implying that Orthodox Jewry as a whole (and pick any sect you want) isn’t lax in any area of halacha? No one I know keeps everything properly. People are always struggling with different things. So, in essence, everyone is lax in some area. Hence my question…who gets included?

    #651413
    Joseph
    Participant

    My “sect” isn’t lax in any area of halacha. You’ll need to speak to someone who speaks your language.

    #651414
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Joseph & SJS: Who decides?

    Rav Elyashiv? Most of frum Klal Yisroel (MO & Sefardim, and many Chardal & Dati) do not hold of him as having the final say. Rav Ovadyah?

    That why you have to ask your own Rav.

    #651415
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Joseph: 🙂

    The retort would be “except Ga’ava”, but i’ve already written my opinion and have nothing to add at this point. I also have a funny feeling you are being facetious.

    #651416
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Joseph, I’m talking about individuals. You mentioned excluding individuals who are lax in any area of halacha. I have yet to meet anyone who is 100% perfect in keeping halacha.

    Sure, the more right wing you go, the less visual it might be (like lashon hara for example), but no one is perfect. So, if you exclude all the people who aren’t perfect (the entire society), who is left for minhag hamakom?

    #651417
    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Regarding socks and R. Falks’s book. Reb Moshe clearly says as long as the knee and above are covered, one doesn’t need any socks. He says that since they are only a chumra, anyway, if one wants to wear clear stockings, she certainly may, as they are not necessary to begin with. However, he doesn’t recommend wearing clear clothing on areas which may be ervah, since that might lead to hirhur.

    However, R. Falk’s book goes into a long discussion of what color and material are permitted for socks. (He even has a problem with certain dark socks because one might see light reflecting through them more noticeably than through lighter socks.) Seemingly out of thin air he manufactures an entire shulchan oruch. All this for a garment which is unnecessary to begin with. It is for reasons like this I totally lost faith in his book.

    One additional point, this business of blaming frum women for the lack of tznius and constantly forcing even more chumras on them will not make it any easier for Jewish men. Has anybody ridden the NYC subways lately? Even the most modern Jewish women don’t begin to compare to what the average subway rider is (or is not) wearing. Believe me, nobody is paying a drop of attention because a frum woman is not wearing thick enough socks. There are far worse distractions all around the train. Let us give credit to all frum women for being so careful with tznius instead of screaming at them that they are only covering 95% of their bodies.

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