Tznius Threads

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  • #597774

    real-brisker
    Member

    I feel that it is a total lack of tznius for both genders here in the CR to have disscusions of what, how, where… is deemed to be tznius, and what is untznius. What are your thoughts about it?

    #785560

    on the ball
    Participant

    Couldnt agree more. I posted the same on a recent such thread but the mods didnt let it pass. The Yetzer Horah for Arayos is very sly and subtle.

    #785561

    flowers
    Participant

    I agree with you 100%. Some threads boggle my mind.

    #785562

    yichusdik
    Participant

    I can’t think of a more effective geder than distance and anonymity that still allows frum Jews to discuss halocho in a constructive way, while including everyone in the discussion who is nogeah b’dovor.

    #785563

    get a life
    Member

    Could not have said it better.

    We would not discuss these issues face to face with the other gender so why on the CR?

    #785564

    WIY
    Member

    Real-brisker

    I think that although on some level it may appear untznius, it tactually benefits many women who just don’t realize what dressing tznius requires, as well as how detrimental their lack of dressing tznius is for themselves and for the men they cause to stumble. If anything, the issue of tznius in our communities is not talked about enough.

    #785565

    real-brisker
    Member

    WIY – So have some rabbonim give lectures, men giving women tips, and womengiving men tips is totaly uncalled for. It is not for no reason when there are tznius events they are totaly seperate events, one for men and one for women. What is to be told to men is not to be heard and disscused by women and vice versa too.

    #785566

    real-brisker
    Member

    yichusdik – I could find a better way, in a male only or female only forum.

    #785567

    yentingyenta
    Participant

    R-B, are you saying women should teach women, and men teach men the aspects of tznius that are nogeah to them? its not very clear.

    #785568

    real-brisker
    Member

    yentingyenta – Yes, with the execption that rabbonim can teach women.

    #785569

    mdd
    Member

    I agree with Yichusdik and WIY. CR is a good way to explain certain things to certain people. Real Brisker, and why is it o.k. for a Rov to do it while facing actual women? CR is better.

    #785570

    flowers
    Participant

    rb:

    It isn’t tznius for rabbonim to teach women about tznius. Turns me off big time.

    #785571

    flowers
    Participant

    I think that although on some level it may appear untznius, it tactually benefits many women who just don’t realize what dressing tznius requires, as well as how detrimental their lack of dressing tznius is for themselves and for the men they cause to stumble. If anything, the issue of tznius in our communities is not talked about enough..

    Violating tznius in order to prevent violating tznius? Doesn’t sound right.

    #785572

    flowers
    Participant

    WIY: Adult women are well aware of it without this coffeeroom hashing about it so much. As for teenagers, they should be taught about it by their schools and mothers minimally (perhaps depending on the kid). Too much exposure (for teenagers) of this fact of life is detrimental.

    #785573

    mdd
    Member

    Flowers, WIY said “it appears” to be non-tsniusdic.

    #785574

    real-brisker
    Member

    mdd – I am not getting into what rabbonim do, because I’m sure they know alot better then us. I am stating that here is the wrong place.

    #785575

    get a life
    Member

    writing about tznius issues on the CR is not going to convince anyone to be more tzanua. Someone who is sensitive will be sensitive in any case. And someone who is not will say “guys look the other way, I am not responsible for the whole world”.

    Any women willing to get up here and say I changed the way I dressed (for the better) because of all the tznius threads on the CR?

    #785576

    “It isn’t tznius for rabbonim to teach women about tznius. Turns me off big time.”

    Well in order for some women to get it, it has to be spelled out for them by a man. We had a man in seminary explain to us what was so bad about being untznius. (He didnt say anything inappropriate for single girls to hear) It scared a lot of girls who honestly did not know what they were doing wrong because it was never explained correctly in high school.

    In high school all they did was have some 18th century looking rebbetzin get up and tell everyone how its so beautiful to be tznius and dont we all want to be tznius so badly? Frankly speaking, we didnt.

    #785577

    bpt
    Participant

    ” CR is better “

    And, from one gender to another, you can hear first hand, what works (in terms of tznius) and what is passing the criteria, yet failing dismally.

    No one tells it like the CR!

    #785578

    MiddlePath
    Participant

    “We had a man in seminary explain to us what was so bad about being untznius. (He didnt say anything inappropriate for single girls to hear) It scared a lot of girls who honestly did not know what they were doing wrong because it was never explained correctly in high school.”

    I’m sorry, but I think that is the wrong approach in giving over the values, guidelines and essence of tznius. I actually think the best approach is when it does NOT come from Rabbis, or schools, or the CR…But rather, from the home. The parents themselves should live a life with tznius, and that should make a positive impression on their children.

    #785579

    Pac-Man
    Member

    We need as many living reminders as possible about tznius from Parents, Rabbonim, Rebbetzins, Teachers, Friends, and of course our spouse.

    #785580

    on the ball
    Participant

    middlepath – ideally yes. But tznius involves not just values and guidelines. It also involves basic laws of what is and is not permitted. That is quite appropriate coming from an educator

    #785581

    bpt
    Participant

    “.. tznius involves not just values and guidelines. It also involves basic laws of what is and is not permitted “

    Which is exactly why we have the mess we have on our hands. Guidlines are like tax laws. Tell me what the guidlines are, so I know how to exploit them.

    What works (for me, at least) is peer pressure. No one keeps me in line more than my social circle / family does.

    #785582

    adorable
    Participant

    so why are you posting here if you dont think its app?

    #785583

    bpt
    Participant

    If your question was directed to me, its because I do think its app, and the CR (in a manner of speaking) is my social circle.

    Were I to start saying /approving things that are not in sync with the YWN tone and taste, I’d find myself being asked to move on. And since I like it here, I abide by the rules we (more or less) agree and adhere to.

    (If the question was aimed at someone else, please re-post, so they can answer)

    #785584

    real-brisker
    Member

    adorable – Its the tznius threads that are the problem.

    #785585

    flowers
    Participant

    Flowers, WIY said “it appears” to be non-tsniusdic.

    Tznius is all about appearance. If it appears not tznius, then it isn’t.

    #785586

    mdd
    Member

    Pun intended, I suppose.

    #785587

    hudi
    Participant

    I agree with WIY. I personally have very specific questions about what men are attracted to, that are more complex than the basic laws of halacha. I do not feel comfortable asking my brother what’s is considered not tznius. I’m not married, so I can’t ask my husband. I am most definitely not asking my father or rav. Therefore, anonymous forums serve a great purpose.

    #785588

    Depot
    Member

    If anything, the issue of tznius in our communities is not talked about enough.

    Couldn’t agree more. Especially considering the extent of the problem.

    #785589

    real-brisker
    Member

    hudi – That is exactly the problem, such disscusions by going into detail can cause hirhur, and are a total lack of tznius.

    #785590

    adorable
    Participant

    real-brisker- Thank you for clarifying. i thought the question was if the CR is tznius. I’m not sure what they are talking about in that case.

    #785591

    real-brisker
    Member

    adorable – In which case?

    #785592

    adorable
    Participant

    Im not sure what threads they think are too “graghic” (i guess thats a good word to use) for the guys here.

    #785593

    flowers
    Participant

    Hudi, you can ask adult females also your complex questions about what is appropriate and what isn’t.

    If my daughter felt she needed to get input from men online as to what is appropriate, I would be very concerned.

    #785594

    Another name
    Participant

    Hudi, Real “grey area” tznius questions should not be entrusted in the hands of an anonymous cr member. It is frightening to think that anything within a halachic parameter would be relied upon “cuz someone said it, so it must be true.”

    #785595

    metrodriver
    Member

    Real Brisker; I don’t even read those threads. (Except this one.)

    #785596

    mdd
    Member

    Flowers, those adult females might not know themselves.

    Another name, we are not talking about Halocha mamesh. We were talking about if certain things have bad effect tsnius-wise.

    #785597

    real-brisker
    Member

    adorable – I’m sorry, but I will not go into detail.

    #785598

    real-brisker
    Member

    metro – This one doesn’t have anything wrong.

    #785599

    flowers
    Participant

    mdd: Right, of course. But the men in the cr do!!

    Hudi asked in a thread called “Dressed to Kill” how much makeup is ok to wear.

    You responded to her. One can’t determine what is “excessive”, “too much” etc.

    Not to mention that not everyone in the cr thinks the same way. Nor does it even make sense to decide if it’s too much if you don’t see her.

    She should be asking the females in her family. If she doesn’t trust them, she should ask someone she does trust.

    #785600

    mdd
    Member

    Flowers, I also gave her some definite answers, didn’t I? Also, the men know the Halochic gedorim better and how certain things look in the eyes of men. Wny not ask a Rov? Some are embarrassed to do it.

    #785601

    IMHO it is a great place to discuss tznius where you can find out what attracts men and what they couldn’t care less about but are obsessions in tznius. No, I’m not comfortable asking these quesions to my brothers or father and I wouldn’t trust my mother or sister because they are not men. Not everyone has someone they can trust. fSince this is anonymous, nobody is talking “face to face” and so you can ask what you need and get a reliable answer from the men which is who tznius is for (at least what I was taught). I dunno-just my thoughts and you can’t change them. And nobody has peer pressure here so you can say what you really want to dress like and how peer pressure changes that.

    #785603

    mdd
    Member

    Flowers, and do you also not hold of Rabbonim dealing with Taharas Mishpacha shailos?

    #785604

    adorable
    Participant

    I think there is a big difference between a rav dealing with those issues and for a man to teach it to a group of girls (lets just say)

    there is a time and place for everything….

    #785605

    oomis
    Participant

    Flowers, and do you also not hold of Rabbonim dealing with Taharas Mishpacha shailos?”

    I actually AM uncomfortable with the idea of showing a rov a T”M shailah. I like the idea of the Toenet, a woman who is mumchah in hilchos niddah, helping in this area. I also don’t think male doctors should deliver babies. But that’s just me.

    #785606

    flowers
    Participant

    mischiefmaker: I searched a bit through the threads to see what you’re talking about. I didn’t see a single post that proves what you said. Can you please point one out where you actually asked a question and got an answer that helped you understand what is acceptable.

    I did find the following though – with you being the author:

    Whoever said that women dress 4 each other is 100% correct! As a by girl all i care about is what other girls and women think. I couldn’t care less what the boys and men think-they probably don’t know whats “in” anyhow. I don’t know-im not in shidduchim but i imagine that its a bit different at that stage and once ur married.

    What a contradiction to what you said here!

    And another post:

    I didn’t read the entire thread but I want to add something. Being a by girl myself (currently) and knowing that I don’t dress perfectly, a lot-even most of it is from peer pressure. And for anyone who thinks we don’t know the halachos-we most definitely know them and whoever violates them is doing it quite knowingly. Yes, every time I go against halacha knowingly I feel mighty guilty but there is a major pressure in today’s society that many girls (myself included) can’t always fight. Whether its right or wrong is a different story.

    So doing the right thing isn’t important. Well, isn’t it obvious: I dunno-just my thoughts and you can’t change them.

    Do you really care if it’s acceptable or not to discuss tznius online with men? I think not.

    And another thing: Tznius guildlines are not only for when you are in the presence of men. It applies for when you are in the presence of women too, and also when you are saying devorim shebikdusha.

    #785607

    flowers
    Participant

    mdd: I also gave her some definite answers, didn’t I?

    Yes, one small very obvious point. Something that by the age of 12 a frum girl can ascertain themselves. I highly doubt she and her female family members didn’t already know that.

    Also, the men know the Halochic gedorim better and how certain things look in the eyes of men.

    Growing up in a ffb home, a woman develops a very good understanding of what is acceptable for tznius and how things look in the eyes of others. I have not seen anywhere in the cr that the men posting here know the halochic gedorim better in regard to tznius. Most just give their own opinions here anyway.

    Wny not ask a Rov? Some are embarrassed to do it.

    Why not apply this to your next question?

    #785608

    mdd
    Member

    Delivering babies is worse and that I hear more. T”M and Tsnius — I also hear, but sometimes there is no effective alternative.

    #785609

    flowers
    Participant

    mdd: read mischiefmaker’s contradictory posts and you will see that it’s all bubba meisis.

    In one posts she says she’s aware of the halachos and knows she’s not following. In the other she says how good it is to find out from men here so she won’t transgress.

    As I said. Bubba meisis.

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