Tzniut Problems In The 5 Towns

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  • #1667344

    YankleCohen4
    Participant

    I currentlly work on Central Ave in the 5 towns. Every day when I do out for my lunch break I go through the external crisis of looking at girls that are dressed not so tznius. Sometimes I avoid this problem by just making lunch at home but I don’t always have time. May someone please help me with what to do when I don’t have time to make myself lunch, or If I just want to take a little break.

    #1667676

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    You eat out every day? Nice

    #1667668

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    Go somewhere else.
    Work harder to be shomer eineyim.
    Make sure to make yourself lunch.
    There’s not tzniyus women everywhere, why do you have to specify where you live and make it sound like there’s a specific issue with tzniyus in your community?

    #1667671

    Avi K
    Participant

    I knew someone who tried looking at the ground. He saw filthy graffiti. If you have no choice you are anoos. Try thinking about the aveira (both yours and theirs). Think about how degrading it is for a person to go about like an animal.

    #1667708

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    And you’re posting this in the winter. Just wait until you see central av in the summer; it feels like Las Vegas.

    There’s really nothing you can do. Sounds like a case of another yid conned into thinking the 5 Towns are frummer than they are. If this thread stays alive, you’re going to see a lot of posters come in and claim that there’s no tznius problem in Cedarhurst, and that we’re all just crazy. Their voices will drown out our’s, and the myth of the 5 Towns will live on.

    #1667685

    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    First, the issue is to define “tznius problem”
    If his problem is defined as women walking with sleeves above the elbow and knee length dresses and skirts, then it is truly his problem.
    People sometimes think because it’s “their” community, they get to regulate/complain about how people dress. It happens in Boro Park on 13th Ave and it happened in Williamsburg when the City put in bicycle lanes on Bedford avenue ( people objected to immodestly dressed women riding thru Williamsburg ).

    #1667722

    Joseph
    Participant

    AJ: The difference is that the OP is referring to purportedly frum women and girls, not the gentile women your story was regarding. And Jews are naturally more attracted to their own kind much more so than to gentiles and seculars. So the issue is far worse when it involves Jewish women, especially so-called religious ones.

    #1667729

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Order delivery,
    Leave payment with company receptionist

    #1667737

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Sleeves above the the elbow is assur according to everyone, even MO rabbis. It’s specifically brought down by chazal along with covering knees.

    Every MO enclave has some degree of tznius problem. Most OOT MO communities have a lot of women who wear pants. The 5 Towns derech of immodesty seems to favor wearing really, really short skirts. No, I don’t mean “at-the-knee,” I mean mini-skirts like goyish college students wear. Why single out the 5 Towns?
    1) It’s where the OP happens to be
    2) Contrary to popular belief, the mini skirts are halachically more problematic than pants.
    3) Unlike most places that admit to being meikel and might even be proud of it (eg. Riverdale), the 5 Towns lacks all self-awareness.

    #1667799

    yitzyk
    Participant

    I spent a Shabbos in Cedarhurst for a simcha last year. I thought that everyone there bought their clothes on sale – 50% off!

    Not everyone in 5T has this problem. I was at a wedding last week for a cousin from Woodmere, and I was pleased that hardly anyone was not dressed tzniusdik.

    At a different wedding at the same hall just one month earlier where the Kallah was also from the 5T, the Mesader Kiddushin under the Chuppah actually waited until they draped a shmattah over the Kallah’s shoulders before saying the Brocha – that’s how undressed she was (and how frum he was B”H)! I was in the back and didn’t realize what was going on, but my wife and daughter filled me in afterwards. I stayed on the Men’s side and never looked at the Kallah, but apparently her dress was SLEEVELESS and BACKLESS!

    Oy. I don’t think there is any Orthodox sect that pretends that such a thing is acceptable, no matter how modern.

    #1667816

    yaakov doe
    Participant

    I doubt that there’s actually a lack on tznius on Central Avenue in the winter. Yankle should see what the “frum” women with shaitels wear in the summer in both the Five Towns and Flatbush. Keep your eyes downn once the weather warms up is my advice.

    #1667831

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    I currentlly work on 13 Ave in the boropark section of brooklyn.Every day when I do out for my lunch break I go through the external crisis of looking at girls that are dressed not so tznius. Sometimes I avoid this problem by just making lunch at home but I don’t always have time. May someone please help me with what to do when I don’t have time to make myself lunch, or If I just want to take a little break.

    #1667843

    Talmidchochom
    Participant

    YankleCohen4,

    Buy horseblinders! Make sure they are not shaatnez.

    #1667847

    bk613
    Participant

    Takes 2
    If what you said was true then you would have a point. But it’s not.

    #1667849

    Talmidchochom
    Participant

    I currently work in Harlem. Every day when I go out for lunch break, I go through the external crisis of looking at girls that are dressed not so tznius. Sometimes I avoid this problem by just making lunch at home but I am getting lazy. May someone please help me with what to do when I don’t want to make myself lunch,?

    #1667864

    Joseph
    Participant

    Shuls should refuse entry to women and their husband/father who goes in public pritzusdik. They should be shunned by the entire community.

    #1667867

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Takes 2
    If what you said was true then you would have a point. But it’s not.
    —————————————
    Sorry but frum women wearing tight clothing in bp is a huge problem.perhaps even worse then short skirts or pants worn by the mo crowd.

    #1667873

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    To parrot t2

    The problem is the tight clothing

    I partially think it’s the manufacturer’s fault

    Women like to feel thinner than they really are so the size they want to be will obviously feel too tight

    #1667878

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Additionally it’s not just in 5t it’s anywhere and everywhere (unfortunately) even in oot communities

    #1667877

    ZionGate
    Participant

    I’m currently at my computer playing people. Yesterday, I was fishing for marital advice about my spouse’s late shul entrance. This morning, I was in Cedarhurst fantasizing about tznius issues , tomorrow I’ll be in Bnei Brak looking for a shadchan’te who specializes in resumes. Anybody who ever read The Secret Life of Walter Mitty, by James Thurber, knows what I mean.
    Ya gotta give our friend credit, he’s good at this. The question is , why?

    #1667883

    YesOrNo
    Participant

    @ctlawyer That is a very good answer.

    #1667879

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Talmid, since you chose a town where that actually does hold true, you do have a point. A person is not always going to be able to earn a parnasah in a tzniusdik place. Tons of Jews work in Manhattan, surrounded by goyim, and life goes on.

    I don’t think that negates the OP’s point, however. I believe he wanted to make a post about a problem in the 5 Towns, but he rephrased it as a personal problem, which was smart. If you phrase something as a societal critique, then people will call you a troll and say you’re an extremist up on a soap box. Rephrasing it a personal issue makes it much more likely to get past moderation and be treated with respect by other posters.

    As for the merit of talking about it at all, it would be pointless to make the point about Harlem where everyone is goyish. With the 5 Towns, you have a place that people want to believe is the epitome of a successful up-and-coming community, the “New Lakewood,” as it’s been called on the CR before. It’s worth publicizing the reality. Also, nothing the OP said was personal; he didn’t single out individuals or institutions. The only people who would take personal offence with his grievance are those clinging to this strange, Utopian dillusion.

    #1667889

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Not sure what the real answer is but if you choose to live and work in any major urban area, by definition you will interact with and engage lots of ordinary people, both yidden and goyim, who don’t hold by our standards of tzinius. You will see them on the bus or subway, while driving to work, at the airport, in line at the bank or at the supermarket. Thats the real world. You simply need to learn not to focus on them and instead have some alternative visuals in you mind to use instead. If thats too difficult, move to a frum ghetto community and don’t venture out.

    #1667895

    Joseph
    Participant

    Clothing stores should require a hechsher, just like food requires, in order for frum women to be able to shop there

    #1667898

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    coffee addictParticipant

    To parrot t2

    The problem is the tight clothing

    I partially think it’s the manufacturer’s fault

    Women like to feel thinner than they really are so the size they want to be will obviously feel too tight
    —————————————–
    Hey , why not blame it partially on god for making it to humid and hot in the summer, causing people to wear short sleeves and skirts.

    #1667903

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    I have never heard a woman say anything positive about “vanity sizing”.

    #1667904

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Joseph

    “Shuls should refuse entry to women and their husband/father who goes in public pritzusdik. They should be shunned by the entire community.”

    Not to get distracted from this important thread, but your idea would 100% fly in chasiddish shuls
    Less so in yeshivish ones (I’m not saying it wouldnt, but less so) . This is part of the difference I mentioned in the other thread

    #1667906

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Joseph, people react to being shunned by saying “Okay, I’m a goy now”. Then they go off, marry goyim, and don’t even put a menorah near their Christmas tree.

    #1667936

    Joseph
    Participant

    ubiquitin: Can you expand on your point, please? Why are the Yeshivish less strict about this issue than the Chasidim?

    Coffee Addict: I don’t think OOT is better in tznius than in-town. In fact, it is better in many in town places (i.e. by the Chasidim, as ubiquitin pointed out above) than most OOT places.

    RY23: We don’t ignore public malicious aveiros due to the reason that if we point them out the aveira the person might then yell I’ll just do more aveiros in retaliation.

    #1667934

    ZionGate
    Participant

    …. In between lunch tuna sandwiches, I support myself as an actor in one-man plays, changing personas after each scene… I peek out of the curtain during intermission to see what’s up.. I ignore the few boos and double down to show I’m at the top of my game… Life’s a gas…..

    #1667931

    yitzyk
    Participant

    No, it cannot be. No one is ever so OTD that they wouldn’t put an electric menorah (all 8 bulbs lit from December 25 through Jan 2) next to their tree. Even the goyim do that!

    #1667929

    jdb
    Participant

    No community is perfect, and there ate likely bigger issurom in posting the name of a community than being an annus here and there and seeing an elbow.

    If you find that the standards aren’t up to your standards, bring lunch. I do it every day. You can too. Or order in. Or don’t look. Or switch jobs.

    All are better options than spreading lashon harah or motsi sgem rah about a frum community.

    #1667945

    eli lev
    Participant

    hechsher = supervision . get it

    #1667944

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    osephParticipant

    ubiquitin: Can you expand on your point, please? Why are the Yeshivish less strict about this issue than the Chasidim?
    ——————————————–
    Because the chassidim have thier in house tzinius police like the arabs have. Its like a chasidish police force practicing chasdidish sharia law.
    And thats why lots of these self proclaimed chasdidish police are now sitting in jail.

    #1667943

    eli lev
    Participant

    @joseph makes a good point. there should be hecsherim on clothing stores…..
    practically, its got to come from the people. if enough people will sign a letter etc. that they r willing to listen to the rabonim who will create such a supervision, then u may convince some rabbis to do it. ofcourse its going to take some idealistic store owners to comply. ashrei chelkom!

    #1667958

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    I’ll expand there I don’t want to hijack this thread

    #1667884

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    JosephParticipant

    Shuls should refuse entry to women and their husband/father who goes in public pritzusdik. They should be shunned by the entire community.
    ————————————————
    If they start shunning untznius people in shul it would also mean they have to shun child molesters, thieves,fraudsters,foodstamp and section 8 rip off artist. But we all know that will never happen. So much for wishful thinking

    #1668063

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    Re hechsherim on clothes- problem is that unlike food, the way clothing fits depends on the person wearing it. What is tight on one person can be fine for another, what is short for a tall person, is fine for a short person. The same outfit can be tniuzdik on one person and not on another. Since it is not always the clothing but the wearer that needs to pass a tznius standard, it would neither be practical nor appropriate for Rabbanim to police clothing stores.
    There is no need for supervision – it is a market economy. If women were disgusted by untznius styles and refused to patronize those stores, the stores would start selling other things. I have seen here in E”Y that branches of the same store carry different clothing depending on what neighborhood they are in- because they are trying to cater to their consumers.

    #1668062

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Joseph, people react to being shunned by saying “Okay, I’m a goy now”. Then they go off, marry goyim, and don’t even put a menorah near their Christmas tree.”
    What’s your point? I’m not saying I agree with the shunning idea, but how is this a counter-argument? You think the frum world should be constantly held hostage and forced to condone all kinds of aveiras out of fear of “driving people away?” That’s exactly the kind of thought-process that landed the greater MO community in the tznius crisis they have today.

    “there ate likely bigger issurom in posting the name of a community than being an annus here and there and seeing an elbow.”
    Oh, give me a break. There is nothing even close to assur about admitting that a certain region has problems, on average, with a certain halachah. Nothing was specific about the OP. Would it be a problem in your version of the Torah if the OP posted about the “American community?” Nothing he said concerned any individuals or institutions. Leading people to believe that a non-tzniusdik community is a yeshivish enclave is closer to lifnei iver than the OP’s post is to lashon hara.

    #1668084

    laughing
    Participant

    If you are such a tzaddik work from home

    #1668092

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    There is a difference between opposing something and shunning someone.

    #1668158

    ftresi
    Participant

    I agree with the OP that there’s a tznius problem in the Five Towns. But there’s a tznius problem in many places. Have you been to Flatbush recently? Or Boro Park? It’s a problem there also. So it’s unfair to single out one neighborhood (which has many good truly frum people by the way) when the problem exists in many frum communities. It’s a universal problem. As for dealing with it I once heard a rav say that there’s no problem seeing it once since you really can’t avoid it. The real problem is when you turn around for another look.

    #1668156

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The “Hechsher” on clothing is one of more insane ideas yet, The frum stores will be forced to pay for this “hechsher” and raise the prices and many will just go to stores like Macy’s or other larger department stores. You really think frum people will stop shopping at stores like Macy’s or Cough Cough Wal-Mart?

    #1668155

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    I think Winnie’s point is really crucial with respect to the difficulty of establishing any objective or bright line test for what is or is not “tziniusdik”. It will depend on the woman wearing the outfit. Obviously, certain items of clothing can be seen to be per se inappropriate on the hanger but for most other women’s clothing, the body form will govern. You cannot take your rebbitzen into the changing room with you every time you shop but common sense dictates the likely answer. Also, soe websites allow you to plug in your photo and vital statistics and will show you what a particular outfit will look like on YOU rather than some runway model.

    #1668142

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    JosephParticipant

    Clothing stores should require a hechsher, just like food requires, in order for frum women to be able to shop there .
    ———————————————–+
    I also bieve that mens clothing should also be sold with a hechsher. And the top button on mens shirts shihld be nandatory to close.
    And the mens pants zipper shohkd be in the back not in the front. Mens pants shohld not have front pockets and you must sew pants pockets on your existing pant pockets.
    Mens shiuld only be allowed to wear chassidish type underware and the only color sock a nan can wear is white.

    #1668177

    Freddyfish
    Participant

    Takes 2 to tango u make me laugh !!! Btw there is practically no tznius issues in Baltimore and housing is cheap. Just saying.

    #1668178

    justme22
    Participant

    How bad can it be in the winter when he is posting this ?
    There is something pritzusdk about too much tznius

    If wearing glasses perhaps getting a different prescription that is not as good to blur out the pritzut

    #1668179

    Joseph
    Participant

    ftresi, it is sadly true that there’s a tznius problem even in frummer neighborhoods such as Boro Park and Flatbush. But that ignores the also sad reality that the extent of the problem is greater the more MO the neighborhood is. In Teaneck and the Five Towns you can easily find people who allegedly identify as Orthodox yet dress little differently than secular America. Pritzus by any definition. Denying that is burying one’s head in the sand. As you go to more Yeshivish neighborhoods like Flatbush, Monsey, Boro Park and Lakewood (yes, in that order) the problem becomes less noticable, comparably, even though it definitely still exists. And once you start getting to the Chasidish neighborhoods such as Williamsburg, New Square and Kiryas Yoel, you get to the point where the problem is really tiny. (Speaking, obviously, of the frum community, not the non-Orthodox/gentiles.)

    #1668191

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Joe,

    Coffee Addict: I don’t think OOT is better in tznius than in-town. In fact, it is better in many in town places (i.e. by the Chasidim, as ubiquitin pointed out above) than most OOT places.

    Did you read my post or only saw that I said the word (abbreviation) oot so you think I’m being משבח ooters

    #1668299

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Denying that is burying one’s head in the sand.”
    And, publicly denying the problem on mass media is like pulling others’ heads under the sand with you.

    On a side note, why shouldn’t there be hechsherim on clothing for shatnez? Talleisin have hechshers, but I’ve never seen it on normal clothing. Does it exist, and I just don’t know about it?

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