Tzniut Problems In The 5 Towns

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  • #1668436

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    Neville, I also have always thought that having a hechsher for shatnez on clothing would be great, and the situation we have now is like it used to be years ago with food when people just read the package labels and ate it if they did not see any obvious non-kosher ingredient.
    I think though that it’s because every piece of clothing can be different, if they run out of material, they can use any scrap so one jacket by manufacturer A would be ok, and another not. It’s less uniform than food. You would need a mashgiach in the clothing factory to check all the materials present and make sure the wrong combination is not used on the entire product line. You would also have a hard time convincing clothing designers to pay for supervision- the frum clientele is too small to make it worth it, while kashrus has a wide appeal even among the non-frum since people assume it means better quality.

    #1668518

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    One difference between kashrus of food and clothing is that clothing can be checked after the fact, but food generally cannot (except for bugs but even that is different because nobody is going to drop off a salad to be checked and pick it up the next day).

    #1668533

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    There is also an economic issue regarding the inyan of having some type of hashgacha for shatnes on clothing . In the area of kashruth, the incredible growth in the number of food companies seeking hashgacha on their products is that anything with a “kosher” certification is considered to be a higher quality and safer product by many goyim. Not clear that a shatnes hashgacha certification would be considered to provide much valued added by the non-frum tzibur.

    #1668530

    DovidBT
    Participant

    Discussion topics like this one make me wonder what people who aren’t observant Jews think if they come across this site.

    #1668542

    ZionGate
    Participant

    This is from my friend BronxMolly from Pelham P’kway to asked to present her question here.
    “Tack on another shidduch question or two :
    Does the family wear gatches with a hechsher? Whose hechsher? Would the MO / chareidi/cholov stam/6 hr. post hard cheese waiters/hotel gebrochts/ non gebrochts .. prospective chosson consider compromising? Will the couple promise not to join the tzniut conscious hordes from BP, KJ , Willy, Monsey, Flatbush, Toms River on Collins Ave. In Miami in the winter? ”
    Hey, what do I know?? I’m just a messenger.

    #1668550

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Uber eats.

    #1668609

    yehudayona
    Participant

    The idea of hechsherim on clothing stores is plain silly. A skirt that’s fine on a short woman will be too short on a tall woman. A dress that’s fine on a thin woman will to too tight on a not-so-thin woman.

    #1668614

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    It would make clothing less affordable, and people would wear less.

    #1668622

    torah613ami
    Participant

    A major problem of Tznius in the 5 towns, not mentioned so far, is of some women going out with Rosh Porua ie. without properly covering their hair or not covering it at all. The Rabbinim there need to speak about this constantly to ensure that such a chillul hashem does not occur anymore.

    #1668616

    takahmamash
    Participant

    I think y’all need to start worrying about yourselves and your immediate families. As my Dad z”l used to say, “MYOB!”

    #1668640

    Joseph
    Participant

    Did your dad say that when lots of purportedly frum people would be eating non-kosher, wearing shatnes or stealing?

    #1668681

    Talmidchochom
    Participant

    Freddy the fish man,

    It is not like someone is holding a gun to your head to read the YWN website. Go visit the pharmacy on Reisterstown Road.

    #1668739

    takahmamash
    Participant

    joseph, yes, he would say that. What people do on their own is between them and Hashem.

    #1668793

    Mrs.Shmo
    Participant

    Don’t know if this is on topic, but if anyone wants to do their little bit to solve tznius problems here’s what I would suggest:
    When it comes to tznius, men can start with showing their wives that they value them, respect them, are attracted to them and love them no matter what.
    They can continue to work on their shmiras einayim (as it seems the OP and many others are).

    Just as you don’t need that over the top car etc to prove your worth when you are secure with yourself and feel connected to Hashem, so too it’s easier for a woman to not need the “outer trappings” when she values herself and feels valued for who she really is.

    if you think I am wrong let me know.

    #1668783

    Freddyfish
    Participant

    Talmidchochom-ur saying good day better😜🤪!!!!

    #1668807

    Freddyfish
    Participant

    Say

    #1668815

    Talmidchochom
    Participant

    Freddyfish, visit two pharmacies! Don’t leave empty-handed

    #1668829

    jerkoq12
    Participant

    Learn torah
    You won’t see anything

    #1668862

    FSM
    Participant

    Mrs. Shmo I think you are wrong. Somehow you make this the man’s fault. Everything on earth is the man’s fault including how his wife dresses? Really? Do the women have bechira or not? Do you have free choice or not? There certainly are men who need to tell their wives when they put on something immodest. most men, being wimps. don’t do it. But ultimately this is for grown women to do by themselves.

    #1668895

    FSM
    Participant

    On the matzaivos of old, for women they’d write, here lies a modest women. That’s how important it is. How many mitzvos do women have and these women can’t even get this one right. There’s no excuse. Be disgusted by it and they’ll look less attractive to you. Use this as an opportunity to increase your Torah observance, to associate only with the best people. When people sin openly and repeatedly and cause others to sin you are allowed to feel disgust them with, to shun them, and that’s what you should you do. it will help. Also go to lunch at 2 pm or bring a lunch. Daven to Hashem that he gets you a better job. He will help you.

    #1668905

    Freddyfish
    Participant

    Talmud chochom huhh🧐🤔🧐🤔

    #1669018

    Mrs.Shmo
    Participant

    FSM – I agree with you, from a woman’s standpoint. Every woman needs to take responsibility for themselves – 100%.
    But I do think if a man wants to make a contribution towards solving this problem that would be a good place to start.

    #1669026

    FSM
    Participant

    mrs shmo, so if you are saying some women don’t feel valued so they dress immodestly to get attention or some kind of fake value, could be. there are men who pretend to value their wives but it’s just talk, just an act. they’ll say my wife is the boss but really they have a low opinion of women. but some of these women don’t help their case because they give the impression that their highest value in life is a granite countertop. I know men that don’t value anybody except famous rabbis. it’s a big problem in the yeshiva world, that only torah study matters, so then women don’t matter and neither does hardly anybody else. i guess when you have 95% of the people feeling bad about themselves, anything can happen. my observation is that tzniyus is strongest in the chassidic world, yet i keep hearing that women are pushed around there. kind of invalidates your theory unless it’s not true that women aaren’t valued there. and i believe women are very valued in the chassidic world because many mitzvos not just torah study are valued there, so that supports your theory, bottom line, be tzniyus regardless of how anybody around you acts.

    #1669079

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “yes, he would say that. What people do on their own is between them and Hashem.”
    So, in your father’s Torah, stealing from a fellow human being is just a problem between the thief and Hashem? Because, one of the examples Joseph asked about was stealing. Nothing on this thread has been about things people “do on their own.”

    #1669081

    unommin
    Participant

    Are the local Rabbonim discussing this in a communal manner; e.g. at shiurim, sermons when shul is well-attended, etc.?

    #1669093

    Logicyid
    Participant

    Take your glasses off|contacts out.

    #1669094

    Modesty
    Participant

    “Are the local Rabbonim discussing this in a communal manner; e.g. at shiurim, sermons when shul is well-attended, etc.?”
    Rabbis understand that it’s not there challenge so there’s no need to speak about this topic

    #1669102

    TrueTalk
    Participant

    The answer is within you. Before we even entertain the thought of repairing the iniquities of the world we must first repair the iniquities of the miniature world which is within us.

    Ok, this particular community’s strength might not be it’s tznius – its strength and contribution to our community can be from something else.

    The Talmud is flooded with stories of the passions of men – and at times of great sages: but it’s answer is not to fix the external issue – it is to fix themselves.

    We are not the judges of this generation – and if we would judge as many do on this thread, with broad strokes and haste, we would not be worthy of the title and seat. Work on yourself, and if worse comes to worse and you won’t be able to handle it – do as Yosef or David Hamelech did from thier temptations…FLEE.

    #1669128

    Talmidchochom
    Participant

    Kudos to True Talk. His comments are exemplary.

    #1669130

    morahmom
    Participant

    Buddy, it’s a lair harder to be consistent with shmiras einaneim than it is to make your own lunch. Also, I AISpext there’s probably delivery.
    Hatzlacha rabbah.

    #1669132

    FSM
    Participant

    ignore what True Talk just told you, He/she took the when all else fails shame the person approach. You are you in a tough position and are seeking help. The problem isn’t you. The problem is that the community has failed you. Tznius is a mess today in America. When you go to a wedding in israel you can tell the Americans in the room by their shiny shells and heels. Their shetls hang to the floor. It’s a disgrace. They come to the Holy Land to sin. Many, not all, have no conception of what modesty is. They think a dress means modesty. They think a wig, any wig, means modesty.

    #1669146

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Classic troll

    #1669196

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    My husband will say something in a respectful manner if he thinks there is something questionable about my dress/ appearance. And I appreciate it because I wouldn’t want to go out questionably dressed, and because he expresses it respectfully I want to take it from him. In general if you want to be taken seriously by your wife be pleasant / respectful. That’s always been the Jewish way.

    But it is a shame when men don’t say anything at all, in today’s day and age, because some women are unaware or they could use the knowledge that their husband is displeased with this way of dress. In a healthy marriage a woman wants to look good for her husband so that would be a strong incentive to dress modestly. Again, if expressed in a respectful manner.

    Also if a man doesn’t watch his eyes his wife won’t respect/ will resent his wishes for her to watch/ curtail her inclination for looking beautiful (which can be expressed in inappropriate dress if it isn’t watched.) Maybe that’s why some men are ‘wimps’ about not telling their wives about this?

    #1669206

    FSM
    Participant

    I am curious, are you married?

    #1669233

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Who me? Yeah

    #1669275

    FSM
    Participant

    no i meant the guy making the post, you said you have a husband, so i see you are married

    by the way, in my view, the most beautiful women in the world are the really modest chassidic ones, like almost every one of them, modesty brings out the neshama and there’s nothing more beautiful than a neshama, sounds like i’m spouting propaganda but i’m not. I’m telling you how i see it.

    #1669287

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “You are you in a tough position and are seeking help. The problem isn’t you. The problem is that the community has failed you. ”

    This is 100% true. My guess is that a lot of the posters attacking the OP probably have some tznius problems to sort out in their own lives. Truth hurts. The OP is doing a good thing by getting this issue out in the open online. We wouldn’t even be talking about a tzius crisis in a place like Riverdale, or some random OOT place with a Conservative/Reform community. The only reason this is relevant is because the Five Towns are allegedly frum. My proposed solution to the problem: give up the fantasy. Sweep it under the rug. The Five Towns didn’t pan out; just let it become Riverdale 2.0. The non-tznius, anti-halachah crowd have to live somewhere, better that they have their own enclaves than ruin our communities.

    #1669309

    yudel
    Participant

    There is much more serious problems in 5t re the …which remained hidden to outsiders. Now the 5t ners are comin out ….

    #1669311

    yitzyk
    Participant

    Re: Clothing Stores with a Hechsher – My daughter loves to shop at a specific women’s clothing store in Boro Park because the owner is not afraid to tell her customers “That looks too tight on you. Try the next size or pick a different style.” She will refuse to sell a dress that is not tznius. (This of course only works when the person tries it on in the store, and when it is for themselves.)

    She probably loses a lot of business this way, but that is precisely why my daughter goes there.

    It’s not a hechsher, and it is certainly unusual. I suppose any customer buying clothing in any store can ask their Rebbetzin if a dress is tznius enough for them if they cared (and don’t trust themselves to judge it.) You don’t need a hechsher. The food industry is very different, because the buyer can’t know if the ingredients and factory are kosher or not on their own without a hechsher.

    #1669313

    FSM
    Participant

    In many respects the least modest women are the fake frum ones. If i go to Walmart, I see all the goyish ladies in their sweat pants and schmatas. Every now and then there’s one who is wearing something really alluring but mostly they look like a sloppy mess. You can usually look away from one immodest woman. The problem is when they are everywhere. And where is that? In frum neighborhoods!

    The frum women wear skirts and sheer tights. I have no idea what the gentile lady’s legs look like but the frum women’s legs are there for all to see. They look less modest than gentile ladies in their pants. I was at a shiva call the other day and to my left were a whole row of ‘frum’ ladies with their legs crossed and their skirts above their knees. A few were even bouncing their legs. I felt like I was in a house of prostitution. And what about the hair. A normal human 50 year old woman has ragged middle aged hair. But not the frum woman. Her hair looks better now than it did when she was 15. I see 70 year old grandmothers with gorgeous wig hair. It’s nuts.

    so one piece of advice, amazingly, you want to be around more modest women, get a job with gentiles, because the fake frum women are the worst.

    All of these people are going to get gehennom. Don’t kid yourself.

    I once walked up to Rabbi Miller, after a shiur, and I asked, “Do you think the woman around her are modest.” With a look of disgust on his face he said, “No.” this was in Flatbush obviously.

    #1669320

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Fsm says:
    Tznius is a mess today in America. When you go to a wedding in israel you can tell the Americans in the room by their shiny shells and heels. Their shetls hang to the floor. It’s a disgrace. They come to the Holy Land to sin. Many, not all, have no conception of what modesty is. They think a dress means modesty. They think a wig, any wig, means modesty.
    ———————————————————
    Fsm, whats worse?
    Americans wearing long wigs (in your opinion) or buchurim and kollel guys leaving bais medrash to create havoc on israeli streets on hiways and biways blocking traffic, wasting innocent peoples time, burning garbage cans, destroying property,making a daily chilul hashem in public

    #1669436

    Modesty
    Participant

    “Shopping613 🌠Participant
    Go somewhere else.
    Work harder to be shomer eineyim.
    Make sure to make yourself lunch.
    There’s not tzniyus women everywhere, why do you have to specify where you live and make it sound like there’s a specific issue with tzniyus in your community?”
    Why do you say that we girls are trying very hard. In life challenges we take small steps. all because you see not tznius remember you don’t see our struggle

    #1669439

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Oh, wow, that’s a really good point, tango. We totally forgot about peleg protesters. The existence of protesters in Israel clearly makes it 100% mutar to dress like a prostitute in the Five Towns and call yourself frum. I can’t believe we missed that obvious connection. Welp, glad we settled this issue.

    #1669497

    yitzyk
    Participant

    You are spoiling his attempt to misdirect and hijack the thread!

    #1669582

    5towns11516
    Participant

    Uber eats !

    #1669616

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Neville, which part do you have a problem with, the manner of dress, or them calling themselves frum?

    #1669601

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    “My daughter loves to shop at a specific women’s clothing store in Boro Park because the owner is not afraid to tell her customers “That looks too tight on you. Try the next size or pick a different style.” She will refuse to sell a dress that is not tznius.”

    That’s wonderful and takes real guts. Good for her! Id love to shop in such a store. It’s sad that I have such a hard time finding skirts that cover a few inches below my knee (Im not super tall either) and / or are not tight in frum stores. In one store I’ve been to, they have shorter skirts downstairs and longer skirts upstairs on a rack (in case you want to be tznius). If the short skirts were just for the short people you would think the short skirts would be the ones tucked away in the back or upstairs, right? Anyway bh for online shopping. And bh that goyishe stores are selling longer skirts. I still haven’t found a suitable straight skirt that isn’t tight and short since my high school days in the stores near me, so I pretty much just wear a line skirts now as they’re in fashion to be longer and thus more readily available.

    #1669696

    TrueYeshivish85
    Participant

    How about focusing on yourself instead of policing other people’s observance. Someone doesn’t dress as you like? Don’t look at them.

    Not everybody is capable of doing everything. A little tolerance and empathy goes a long way.

    #1669789

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Neville, which part do you have a problem with, the manner of dress, or them calling themselves frum?”
    For them, it’s the way they dress.

    I don’t think it’s necessarily Five Towns residents perpetuating the myth (maybe it is). I know your question was probably a set up to make the point that this is all just about semantics and silliness etc. but it’s not. The biggest credit one can give to Avi Weiss and his crew is that they’re at least honest; they aren’t pretending to be anything more than what they are. They came up with a new label for themselves. It does bother me that when a one-foot-off the derech community calls itself by a name like Open Orthodox, it gains the obsession of frum news outlets. But, then the same stuff and worse goes on elsewhere without a name to warn onlookers, it gets under the radar and anyone who points it out gets accused of being judgmental.

    People can and have said much worse things about the OO on these forums. But, when they talk about people doing the same exact things in the Five Towns, it’s suddenly wrong. Why? What’s the difference? The lack of the word “Open?” THAT, my friend, is just silly semantics.

    #1670315

    FSM
    Participant

    “kollel guys leaving bais medrash to create havoc on israeli streets on hiways and biways ”

    the tznisus problem is much worse for one it’s every moment of the day and widespread which is not the case for what you just described. kollel boys don’t daily burn garbage on streets and block traffic, and when they do, it’s always in response to an arrest, often of girls, by the israeli government, the protests happen about once every three weeks and last for two hours and happen on particular street corners, there’s no comparison between the two

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