Tzniut Problems In The 5 Towns

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  • #1671677

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There is a differnece between money from a Mechallel Shabbat and a Thief.

    I think we can agree that someone who is a Mechallel Shabbat can be a good person otherwise with good Midot, Just not religous for whatever reason (Maybe they werent brought up that way) . However being a Thief or money obtained via other ill gotten methods (LIke Drugs laundering) has Bad middot attached to them

    A Mechallel Shabbat who gives Tzdekah is more of a Tinok Shenihba than a thief of Drug dealer

    #1671676

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    ” In which communities do tax evaders, child molestors or people stealing government benefits like Medicaid or section 8 parade their crimes in public?”

    Lol! youre kidding right?

    Look this thread is silly (not that I don’t love silly threads) nobody is coming to YWN to look for advice on this and nobody is changing their behavior based on a comment on YWN.
    This is nothing more than an easy way to feel superior. I may not be so honest in business but hey at least I dress tznius. Of course I’m doing the same I may not dress tznius but hey at least I don’t come on to YWN with a fake holier than thou attitude pretending I have holy motives .

    You want a geshmake thread to put down others so you can feel superior without working on yourself.
    go for it!
    just dont pretend its anything more than that.

    i’m not.

    #1671654

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    ZD, go ahead. In which communities do tax evaders, child molestors or people stealing government benefits like Medicaid or section 8 parade their crimes in public?

    Lakewood: 159 People Took Advantage Of Controversial Medicaid Fraud Amnesty Program

    NC

    you obviosuly missed my point, When you wag the finger at someone , Be careful they can wag it back at you

    #1671681

    yichusdik
    Participant

    Neville – his question was answered. See my response above.

    And so, in the willingness to take funds from those who are not adhering to standards here publicly proclaimed as the measure of whether a community is being polluted or not, my question has been answered too.

    #1671683

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Because I am not trumpeting my actions as the gold standard (or indeed the standard for anyone other than myself) I won’t suffer from that aroma of hypocrisy that is so hard to avoid once one has stepped in it.

    You already stepped in it by using the money argument despite saying you would take from a mechallel Shabbos.

    Your disclaimer is nonsense.

    #1671684

    Haimy
    Participant

    Tznius is not just a bein odom limokom obligation, it’s a bein odom lichaveiro obligation. A woman who dresses untzniusdig is a mazik es horabim. She is a walking michshol to every man than sees her. The Steipler called these people spiritual terrorists ruining the neshamos of those who see them. Many of these yidden are tinokes shenishbu who don’t understand how damaging their behavior is to others.

    #1671686

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    A Mechallel Shabbat who gives Tzdekah is more of a Tinok Shenihba than a thief of Drug dealer

    A mechallel Shabbos who is not a tinok shenishba can also give tzedaka.

    #1671687

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ZD, they didn’t parade their crimes in public (also, a lot of the charges were dropped).

    you obviosuly missed my point

    I think you missed Uncle Ben’s point.

    #1671696

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    And so, in the willingness to take funds from those who are not adhering to standards here publicly proclaimed as the measure of whether a community is being polluted or not, my question has been answered too.

    You’re the only one here who ever claimed that taking money is some type of measure of pollution.

    #1671699

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Lol! youre kidding right?

    No, I don’t think he’s kidding, and in fact, makes a valid point.

    People have a yetzer hora, and do things they shouldn’t, and know they shouldn’t, and would be embarrassed if they were discovered.

    When someone intentionally does an aveirah in public, there’s a different dynamic going on. Perhaps the person doesn’t know it’s an aveirah, that would make the comparison of the two inapt. Perhaps they know it’s wrong, but don’t have any busha about doing something wrong. That’s also different than a private aveirah (where perhaps the sinner was caught, but they are embarrassed).

    Either way, the comparison between someone dressing publicly in an inappropriate manner to these other aveiros, which might very well be bigger aveiros, isn’t a good one.

    #1671707

    yichusdik
    Participant

    DY, I think you might be deliberately obtuse here. I didn’t offer an opinion on whether the mosdos should take money from a thief, a mechallel shabbos, or someone who doesnt adhere to tznius. That wasn’t my point at all. My point was and is about the posters HERE, and what they say about the pollution of the machne by people in the 5T and elsewhere who don’t dress in a tzniusdik fashion. About whether THEY are so outraged by this breach of communal tznius that they will demonstrate that outrage by not taking money from the “guilty” parties THEY are talking about, or asking the mosdos and leaders they are aligned with to demonstrate their righteous outrage in the same way.

    You turned it into something else, and set up my “hypocrisy” deflecting attention from my point. I won’t be obliged to satisfy your deliberate reluctance to address my point.

    #1671738

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I did hear a story that the Menhel of Yeshiva of Brooklyn refused to take a donation from Barbara Streisand who graduated from there, so some do refuse the money if they dont like the source

    #1671737

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Taking “Dirty” momey is a problem. If the RY knows the money comes from suspect sources like Drug Dealing or theft then it is polluted money and should not be taken no matter how much it is

    #1671758

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I won’t be obliged to satisfy your deliberate reluctance to address my point.

    I addressed your point directly. As have others. I’ll repeat. We don’t refuse money from people just because they don’t keep every mitzvah they are obligated to. That doesn’t mean we approve of their behavior.

    OTOH, money which was obtained through tainted means such as theft, we do refuse. So your continued comparison of the two is befuddling.

    #1671760

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I did hear a story that the Menhel of Yeshiva of Brooklyn refused to take a donation from Barbara Streisand who graduated from there, so some do refuse the money if they dont like the source

    I’ve heard the same story. There are still several differences between that and what’s being discussed.

    She is a public figure, known for performances which are not according to Torah standards of tznius, and that’s how she obtained her wealth. She also, according to the way I heard the story, had attended the school, yet was and is very far from epitomizing their ideals.

    I believe he generally did accept donations from non frum people.

    #1671775

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I did hear another story from another Rav, Sorry I forgot his name. He used to go to some office every year and collect a check from someone who wasnt religous. It wasnt a huge check, but it was a decent amount

    Then the man died and his son took over the company. The Rabbi went to see the son about the donation. The Son cursed out the Rabbi and threw him out of the office and told him never to come back. The Rabbi cried and his advisor said, Why did the Rabbi cry and the Rabbi said the donation was the only link the father had to yiddishkeit, Now the son refuses to continue that link there is no more link and he was crying because of that, not because he was thrown out of the office and told never to return

    #1671794

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “People have a yetzer hora, and do things they shouldn’t, and know they shouldn’t, and would be embarrassed if they were discovered.”

    If only. In one of the shuls I grew up in, people gloated about how they kept separate books in order to claim “entitlements” they werent entitled too. In order to have a seat on the mizrach vant you had to have done some time in jail for tax evasion.
    My rebbeim growing up taught us that it is a “mitzvah” to cheat on taxes. These were the rebbeim we were taught to look up to

    There is a prominent case of a fellow who is viewed as celebrity in spite of (and to some because of – yes I heard this outright) having committed bank fraud. and I know sure there are all sorts of lomdishe reasons why it wasn’t technically wrong and that everybody does it he had no choice. Please spare me, every group has their own things they struggle with. I am not saying that the group being charged by OP is innocent.

    I am just saying that all this holier than though attitude is baloney. You like looking down at them because its easy too. They (and I ) are doing the same (though Glorifying a convicted bank felon is not my nisayon, I do see why others struggle with that

    #1671813

    torah613ami
    Participant

    In response to the Post below this: A jewish woman going in public without kisu rosh (covering their har properly) us a chillul hashem to jews & goyim. Since uncovered hair is considered ervoh or nakedness, she is causing aveiros to any jewish man that sees her. So we just can’t mind our own business about this problem.

    “takahmamish” wrote
    I think y’all need to start worrying about yourselves and your immediate families. As my Dad z”l used to say, “MYOB!”

    #1672115

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Look this thread is silly (not that I don’t love silly threads) nobody is coming to YWN to look for advice on this and nobody is changing their behavior based on a comment on YWN.”

    I agree that nobody is going to run a big life decision by the YWN CR, but whether you like it or not, forums come up pretty quickly when googling any Jewish community related question/topic. The Five Towns have enjoyed an unfairly positive image on the internet as a whole, which is misleading. Anything that can be done to correct that should be done.

    #1672111

    Haimy
    Participant

    As I posted earlier, a person who goes in public without tzniusdig is a mazik es horabim. This is very different than someone struggling with a personal yetzer horah. I don’t live in the 5towns so it’s not my place to criticize them. Most are probably tinokes shenishbu. I this is a problem because whenever my relative from the 5towns comes for a simcha we cringe over how she will be dressed.

    #1672108

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “you obviosuly missed my point, When you wag the finger at someone , Be careful they can wag it back at you”
    How does this make sense in your head? Do you think I personally am one of the people mentioned in that article?

    You talk like the non-modern crowd is all one giant connected conspiracy thinking with a unified brain. I am not guilty for something a random guy in Lakewood does. This thread is a region-based discussion, not community-based. If you thought moving to Lakewood would cause a guy to fall into the temptation to commit welfare fraud, then warn him by all means. However, that is not the subject of this thread. You are welcome to make a thread about those problems in Lakewood, but this is about the Five Towns.

    Sorry if it takes me a while to post again. I’m going to be away at the Protocols of the Elders of Chareidim meeting.

    #1672154

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “The Five Towns have enjoyed an unfairly positive image on the internet as a whole, which is misleading. Anything that can be done to correct that should be done”

    So the point of this thread is just to put down fr the sake of putting down, just so that they don’t enjoy a “positive image” ?

    As an aside online you will find a far worse image of the five towns regarding tznius than “mere ” dress.

    #1672176

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “The Five Towns have enjoyed an unfairly positive image on the internet as a whole, which is misleading. “

    Huh? For what?

    #1672190

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    You talk like the non-modern crowd is all one giant connected conspiracy thinking with a unified brain. I am not guilty for something a random guy in Lakewood does. This thread is a region-based discussion, not community-based. If you thought moving to Lakewood would cause a guy to fall into the temptation to commit welfare fraud, then warn him by all means. However, that is not the subject of this thread. You are welcome to make a thread about those problems in Lakewood, but this is about the Five Towns.

    You are doing exactly what you claim I am doing, You are lumping everyone in the 5 towns, They are not Monolithic, there are all kinds of people there

    And for the record I do not live there and never have lived there and I dont really go there that often, I actually go to Lakewood more than the 5 towns, I do know a number of people quite well who live in both places

    #1672199

    ZionGate
    Participant

    Consider envy in the mix.
    Lots of people have an image of super$$$, uppity, lawns, etc.
    They just want to draw some 5 Towns blood because it makes them feel better about themselves.

    #1672220

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    “whenever my relative from the 5towns comes for a simcha we cringe over how she will be dressed.

    Haimy: Based on your comments here and elsewhere, I submit there is a reasonable liklhood that when your “5T relative” plans on coming over for a simcha on shabbos, she probably begins having anxiety attacks by Mitvoch or Donershtik. Perhaps your sister-in-law or cousin is a regular CR reader and now understands why the ganz mishpacha stares at her from the time she walk in to the simcha hall and finds she is seated at a “special” table in the kitchen..

    #1672238

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “You are doing exactly what you claim I am doing, You are lumping everyone in the 5 towns, They are not Monolithic, there are all kinds of people there”

    None of us are doing that except for you in regards to the Lakewood types. We are simply acknowledging a regional problem. If someone says you’re going to see untznius things at Daytona Beach, it doesn’t mean they’re passing judgement on every resident of Daytona Beach; they’re just stating a fact. There certainly are halachah-abiding folks in the Five Towns, but why should that mean we ignore the greater problem?

    For the facts:
    On Central Avenue in the Summer, rov females are untznius. Anyone with the slightest bit of experience there knows this; it’s not even close to 50/50.
    The schools in the area are not yeshivish, and 5 Towners purposely and disingenuously take credit for the yeshivish communities of Far Rockaway and Bayswater to claim they have a mix.
    For your unrelated analogy: only a fool would think that there is no financial fraud in the frum community, but only someone blinded by MO propaganda would think it’s more than 50% of the frum community.

    #1672289

    torah613ami
    Participant

    It’s clear that most people responding to this Topic, have no clue about basic Tznius in halacha. Rather, they enter into an opiniated discusion. Mishna Berura describes simply what female Tznius is. “Covering hair so that no more than 2 Tefochim of hair are
    exposed (as per the mishnah in Kesubos) and wear clothing covering the elbows and the knees”. That’s it. Instead people have posted nonsensical opinions and. comments. Showing exposed skin and wearing tight clothes is Pritzus. That’s it. Don’t show your ignorance and don’t do the aveiros you mention in “Al cheit” on Yom Kippur.

    #1672323

    Modesty
    Participant

    “female Tznius is. “Covering hair so that no more than 2 Tefochim of hair are
    exposed (as per the mishnah in Kesubos) and wear clothing covering the elbows and the knees”. That’s it. Instead people have posted nonsensical opinions and. comments. Showing exposed skin and wearing tight clothes is Pritzus. That’s it”
    Are you saying that wearing very tight clothing and showing skin doesn’t lack in the Mitzvah of Modesty who are you quoting
    Amazing we all struggle with that and now you’re saying it’s allowed
    It just makes the whole tznius not challenging anymore but rather very confusing

    #1672345

    philosopher
    Participant

    Modesty, it is not confusing at all. It is against halacha to expose skin that should be covered and to wear tight clothing. There are numerous sources of halachas on tznius and simply quoting 2 sources means nothing except deliberately choosing halachas that one wants to choose

    #1672318

    Joseph
    Participant

    The Mishna Berura says that the full requirements for females to dress tzniusdik starts at age three.

    #1672338

    philosopher
    Participant

    torah613ami, I quit posting in the CR awhile ago because my comments to a anti-Semite who kept on sticking up for Fakestinians and bashing Jewish self-defense measures, who was likely Jewish himself, were censored. But now seeing people like you claiming to know halacha when you really don’t want to know basic halachas and you are misleading people, I will comment on that. According to numerous poskim showing the shape of a woman’s figure and showing skin that is ervah is absolutely against halacha.

    Just by quoting two sources does not mean that you can ignore the rest of the halachas.

    In any case, most of the women who wear tight clothing also wear clothing skirts that do not cover the knee, many wear mini skirts and more and more elbows are being exposed. And tight skirts, even when they cover the knee while standing, will expose the knee when sitting.

    And then not everything needs to have a source. Where’s the common sense in people? Things like very long wigs or very long loose hair is pritzus. I’m not sure if there’s a source for that but women need to be b’tnius according to the Torah and need to act and dress accordingly. Does it say in the Torah that you have to brush your teeth every day and drive carefully? It’s common sense! It’s also common sense that if the Torah places such emphasis on tnius it means that even though modern, long wigs are a recent development and not written about in the Torah or other sources, a woman needs to use their head and not wear long wigs because we all know, and you’d be fooling yourself if you deny it, long wigs are not tzniusdig, period.

    This horrible situation of frum women looking like prutzos came about precisely because of people like you quoting one or two sources as “proof” that those are the halachas of tznius that we have to be concerned about.

    It’s a shanda how many frum women dress. It’s a churban.

    And for those who claim it’s loshe hora – it’s not. Those who sin are public are allowed to be spoken about and to be mechazek ourselves and to clarify, these issues must be spoken about. A women who dresses like a frum prutzah is still dressing like a prutzah and causing others to sin.

    Edited

    #1672394

    Modesty
    Participant

    “It is against halacha to expose skin that should be covered and to wear tight clothing. There are numerous sources of halachas on tznius“ what makes you say that who are you quoting?
    it can’t be that there are poskim that allow it?

    #1672411

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    ““The Five Towns have enjoyed an unfairly positive image on the internet as a whole, which is misleading. “

    Huh? For what?“

    Neville,

    You still haven’t answered me and I’m wondering if you ever will

    #1672469

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Im sure Hashem gets lots of Nachas from communities that dress Tzniut, but have FBI raids for some white collar crime, After all they are dressed Tzniut and the crimes are against the goyim anyway

    #1672522

    torah613ami
    Participant

    To: “Philosopher” and “Modesty”

    Forbidden “Pritzus” (word used by bnei torah) I mentioned, is a tznua way of saying
    “looking Promiscuous”. You’re twisting word and facts, but mainly ignoring the
    important problem of Kisui Rosh in the 5 towns. Does your family practice Kisui rosh.

    #1672523

    torah613ami
    Participant

    To Zahava’s Dad. You talk the “talk” but you don’t walk the “walk”. You write
    like a concerned yid but spout venom against the yiden. You’re describing a very
    rare occurence that is a microcosm in comparison to
    the rest of the world. You’re spouting evil on Am Hayehudi. You
    speak & act as a self hating or phony yid. Admit it

    #1672531

    cholentmitkugel
    Participant

    Someday, I’d like to make Aliya…to Lawrence !

    #1672538

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    looking Promiscuous is assur.
    It’s a violation of the entire root of tzanua.

    #1672599

    Mistykins
    Participant

    @zahavasdad People who dress tznius but commit crimes? Chillul Hashem. Let them be judged for their crimes by both the law and by Hashem.

    The other 99% of Jews in Lakewood that dress tznius should not be lumped in with the criminals. Don’t lump everyone together.

    #1672635

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The other 99% of Jews in Lakewood that dress tznius should not be lumped in with the criminals. Don’t lump everyone together.

    Well then dont lump everyone in the 5 towns either, The people are not monolithic there either

    #1672634

    philosopher
    Participant

    Torah613ami, I’m sorry but your first comment was not so clear, it seems I misunderstood what you were trying to say. And neither am I sure I understand your second comment regarding kisui rosh. I assume you are asking whether the women in our family wear wigs. Yes we do. That is a separate issue from tznius issues. There are differences in opinions regarding peah nochri but I’m not sure why you think it is rellevent to this thread. We are discussing issues of tznius here, not whether wearing wigs are kosher or not.

    #1672656

    philosopher
    Participant

    zahavasdad, I’m sure there are women who dress tzniusdig in the 5 Towns but when you walk down the streets they are full of pritzusdige looking frum women with very long wigs, tight clothing and short skirts. I’m from upstate, but sometimes I find myself in the city in certain frum areas in Brooklyn and the way frum women dress I find is repulsive and irresponsible, and brazenly and publicly trampling on halacha. We have it to a lesser extent where I live, it’s not so bad as certain frum communities in the city. The first time I saw a frum man with a kapl and beard and his wife walking next to him wore a mini skirt I was shocked. This is insanity.

    Not dressing b’tznius is not only between a woman and Hashem, it negatively effects others as well.

    #1672679

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    How do you know the women you’re looking at are frum?

    #1672674

    Modesty
    Participant

    “Shopping613 🌠Participant
    looking Promiscuous is assur.
    It’s a violation of the entire root of tzanua.”
    What makes you say that
    Do you even understand our challenge

    #1672692

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    “dressing b’tznius”
    Thanks Philosopher for using the words tnizus (a noun, meaning modesty) properly. I’ve been grimacing at all the misuses of the word throughout these pages. For those who are looking for an adjective to describe a person’s clothing or looks, i.e. modest, the proper word would be tzniusdig (Yiddish form) or Tz’nua (Hebrew). It gets confusing when mixing languages…

    #1672701

    LLW
    Participant

    Imagine if Jews could get along without judging other people’s religiousity. It’s quite humorous to see how adults spend their time on the internet. I would love to hear how the way someone dresses reflects their religiosity and how great they are as a person. It amazes me to see how such “religious people” talk down upon different types of Jews. People may dress “immodestly”, but at least they are not speaking badly about other fellow Jews. Have fun spending your time arguing over the way people dress as opposed to actually doing something good with your time. Modesty is most importantly about the way one conducts themselves in public and I have personally witnessed extremely religious people who are clearly Jewish making the complete opposite of a kiddish hashem and that makes it even worse people non Jews can see you’re Jewish. The way someone dresses does not define them nor should you judge the way they dress as how great of a person they are.

    #1672744

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    LLW – I agree with you completely that this thread is garbage and judging people’s entirety by their dress is wrong. I haven’t read most of theseposts so I may be repeating others but I want to address your comment because I hear where you are coming from.
    When people walk around in skirts that are too short, they bring acceptance to action and make it more comfortable for others to do the same. When something is wrong per Halacha, and people do it publicly, it needs to be spoken out against.
    Does that mean judging them as people is okay? No. Making assumptions about the rest of their lives okay? No. But it also isn’t okay to say, “I’m not gonna comment on this behavior, even though it is getting more untzniusdig and affecting more people”
    So you are right, most bashers have no lishma attached to their bashing. It seems to be a hobby for them. And you are right that someone in that dress may be a better human being, or even a better Jew than some of those who dress btznius but have other behaviors. But your point is wrong that we shouldn’t speak strongly against the act of dressing in that way in public while presenting yourselves as drum Jews when it is wrong.
    Does that give license to judge the person? No

    #1672742

    Talmidchochom
    Participant

    I am a gal I’d chocoholic and see no tznius issues out there.

    #1672743

    Talmidchochom
    Participant

    Mechallel Shabbos in 2019 is not in the gender of tinok shenishbeh. Even goyim know that Jews don’t smoke and drive on Saturday.

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