Wasting Other People’s Time

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  • #1948089
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I am currently saying kaddish for two family members. However, I am not a chiyuv for either one. One has literally no one else to say kaddish for him. The other has sons, but they are not frum and do not say kaddish and there is no one else to do so.

    I’ve been wondering, of late, if I am guilty of wasting the time of my fellow mispallelim if I am in a place where there are no other chiyuvim and say kaddish.

    If there is a chiyuv, I know I have no problem, since I say kaddish at the same time as the chiyuv, for which the tzibbur must stay anyway. But if I am the only one saying kaddish, perhaps it is better that I don’t, since, not being a chiyuv myself, by forcing the tzibbur to stay, I’m probably wasting their time (since they’d be out of shul quicker).

    So, I’ve been wondering if I am guilty of wasting people’s time and, if so, what can I do about it?

    The Wolf

    #1948157
    charliehall
    Participant

    I don’t think I have ever been in a minyan that objected to a non-chiyuv saying Kaddish. It is one of the reasons we go to minyans, to allow people to say Kaddish. There is a woman I say Kaddish for who was a secular Israel from a secular family; the secular family gave me permission and appreciated it. I tell the gabbai that I am saying Kaddish for a non-relative and it has ever been a problem.

    #1948160
    gadfly1
    Participant

    Aren’t you giving them the opportunity for the mitzvahs of answering “Amen” and “Yehei Shmei Rabbah”?

    #1948163
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Thank you, Dr. Hall. That may be true, but I don’t know that the gabbai has the authority to allow one person to potentially waste everyone else’s time.

    The Wolf

    #1948169
    Anan Sahadi
    Participant

    I do not understand what you mean by wasting other people’s time. ITS CALLED TEFILLA BITZIBUR!!! During the lockdown, I PERSONALLY REGRETTED every moment of davening I missed. What is this an ANTI-TEFILLA GROUP???!!!!

    #1948171
    Anan Sahadi
    Participant

    I have been a 9th grade rebbi for 20 years and many talmidim have asked these type of questions (tachnun, bentching are also things my talmidim want to skip) I always reply kindly and explain to them the value OF 1 AMEIN!

    #1948175

    At the risk of wolf taking advantage of this opportunity to play his self deprecation game, the mods had no business approving a thread that labels participating in tefillos, especially kaddish, as a waste.of time. It’s a disgusting implication and shouldn’t be in print.

    #1948173
    Anan Sahadi
    Participant

    When I was a kid if I asked such a question I would be slapped and whipped. wow, times have changed…………..

    #1948174
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I do not understand what you mean by wasting other peopleโ€™s time. ITS CALLED TEFILLA BITZIBUR!!! During the lockdown, I PERSONALLY REGRETTED every moment of davening I missed. What is this an ANTI-TEFILLA GROUP???!!!!

    If I gave you the impression that I don’t believe in Tefilla B’Tzibur, then I apologize. That wasn’t my intent.

    My point was that I feel responsible for Shacharis taking 45 minutes instead of 42, wasting three minutes of everyone’s morning every day. That was my point. My apologies if I gave the wrong impression.

    (Of course, the fact that I’m a stupid apikorus is probably why I wasn’t clear…)

    The Wolf

    #1948179
    Anan Sahadi
    Participant

    You are correct! The only reason you would ask such a question is because you do not value tefilla

    #1948181
    Anan Sahadi
    Participant

    Do you think the avos hakdoshim davened for no reason????????????????!!!!!!!!

    #1948182
    Anan Sahadi
    Participant

    I am perturbed by your lack of chashivus for mitzvos

    ”Why is it not permissible to use a lemon for a esrog???!!”

    THAT IS WHERE YOU ARE HEADING

    #1948183
    Anan Sahadi
    Participant

    Also,
    shachris on a regular day should take 55 minutes MINIMUM
    and m and t 1HR and 10 MIN

    #1948196
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    shachris on a regular day should take 55 minutes MINIMUM

    The numbers were just to illustrate the point. They weren’t meant to imply that davening should be of any particular length.

    You are correct! The only reason you would ask such a question is because you do not value tefilla

    Fine. Despite the fact that I said above that I was in favor of tefilla b’tzibbur, you’ve decided that I don’t value it. So I don’t value it. I guess that’s what you’d expect of a complete rasha like me.

    The Wolf

    #1948198
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Anan,

    How about answering the question I asked, rather than get outraged over something I never said.

    The Wolf

    #1948197
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Do you think the avos hakdoshim davened for no reason????????????????!!!!!!!!

    My question has NOTHING to do with davening. It has to do with saying kaddish. You can have a 100% valid and kosher davening without someone saying kaddish at the end.

    The Wolf

    #1948206
    ujm
    Participant

    Wolf, how about not ignoring the strong answers and only refuting the weak answers. This is a trademark of yours.

    #1948208

    I think the question is a valid one during the pandemic. Even if this is a relatively little time, but it is extra time. Whether you are in an unsafe minyan inside, or at a safer minyan outside where people are exposed to elements. I am also often an only one saying kaddish, I just skip the earlier ones, and then say one at the end at a relatively high speed. I hope others utilize various other means of minimizing tircha …

    #1948268
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @always ask, I assume this was done after consultation with a leading posek? or was this done on your own volition?

    #1948302
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Wolf, I don’t think that you are matriach the tzibur as you get them to say Amen and Amen Yeheh Shemeh Rabba etc. which is very chashuv as mentioned above. There is the story with Rebbi Akiva who taught a boy to say kaddish. Maybe you should not say all kaddishim but affer alenu.

    #1948323
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf, how about not ignoring the strong answers and only refuting the weak answers. This is a trademark of yours.

    What strong answers? That I’m anti-tefillah????

    The Wolf

    #1948356
    ujm
    Participant

    Wolf, that you’re giving everyone extra mitzvas by them answering Amen.

    #1948372
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Perhaps a variation of the OP is whether one who comes to daven to say kaddush on the yahrtzeit of someone for whom saying kaddish iis not a chiyuv gets any priority to be the baal -teffilah or gets an aliyah or kovod over one saying kaddish with a chiyuv or even someone not saying kaddsh at all.

    #1948354
    Red Adair
    Participant

    Kaddish is a zechus for the neshoma of the niftar and a nechoma (comfort) for the child, sibling, spouse or (R”L) parent who is saying the kaddish. It is never, ever a tircha to listen to and respond to someone saying the mourner’s kaddish. As a matter of fact, I wish those who talk during kaddish would be more aware not only of the halachic problem, but also how it may hurt those saying the kaddish who may perceive disrespect and uncaring toward the niftar.

    Even those who have never been frum tend to highly value the saying of kaddish. At work we’d regularly have non-frum people come in to our minyan on yortzeits, put on a yarmulka, and say the kaddish for their relatives. Sometimes they couldn’t even read Hebrew or say the “ches” properly, but they’d do their best reading the English transliterated version they had. My wife paid a yeshiva a few hundred dollars to say kaddish after her non-frum friend’s father passed away and her friend was immensely grateful. Please, don’t ever undervalue the importance of kaddish.

    #1948379
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Please, donโ€™t ever undervalue the importance of kaddish.

    If we are going to accept, a priori, that it’s proper for me to say kaddish (which I’m going to do anyway, since I told the family members that I would), then the question should be thus:

    My commitment to say kaddish is a commitment that I can take voluntarily. But I cannot force the tzibbur to take the time to listen to it. I don’t have the power (nor do I want the power or responsibility to) force the tzibbur to do so. Since I am, in effect, doing so, what are the proper steps that I should take to remedy it to the tzibbur?

    The Wolf

    #1948385
    Meno
    Participant

    So make an announcement that you’re saying kaddish for someone else.

    If anyone has an issue, they could speak up or daven somewhere else.

    #1948398
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    Story from Ksav sofer:

    There was a woman who immediately upon her husbandโ€™s passing, as she had no sons, she asked the rosh yeshivah to arrange for Torah scholars to say kaddish for her husband for the entire eleven months, and also each successive year on the yahrzeit. She also requested that a second kaddish be said each day, having in mind all those souls who have no one saying kaddish for them. This went on for nearly ten years.

    In time the window lost all her money but she continued to pay to say Kaddish, she asked Ksav Sofer if the kaddishes were still being said, and he comforted her that they were.

    Suddenly the door opened. A distinguished-looking older man entered, turned to the widow, and asked her why she was crying. He told her that he knew of her desperate situation and that he was prepared to help. He then requested of the rosh yeshivah that they all go into his office, and that two scholars of the yeshivah join them. The rosh yeshivah acceded, and summoned two of his five great disciples present that year: his son, Rabbi Shimon Sofer, and Rabbi Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld.

    When they were all assembled, the mysterious guest said, โ€œI know you have five daughters of marriageable age. Letโ€™s figure. Each one needs a thousand kroner for dowry money, and another thousand kroner each for the expenses of the wedding and for buying furniture and setting up a household. So, that is two thousand for each of the five, or ten thousand altogether. Plus, to put your business back on its feet, you need another ten thousand kroner, so that makes twenty thousand altogether.

    โ€œAll right, then,โ€ he said, โ€œIโ€™ll write you a check.โ€ Whereupon he took a checkbook out of his pocket, tore off a check, wrote the womanโ€™s name on it, inscribed it for twenty thousand kroner and signed it! Before handing it to her, however, he asked the two young scholars to sign on the back as witnesses to the transaction. He also asked them to take out their personal notebooks so he could sign in each a sample of his signature, in case the signature on the check would be challenged. Turning back to the woman, he told her that she should present the check at the government bank when it opened at nine oโ€™clock, and they would honor it. Then he left as suddenly as he had come.

    At nine the next morning, the widow was at the bank. The guard at the door directed her to one of the tellers, to whom she showed the check. He looked up the records and told her there was sufficient funds in the account to cover the check, but for such a huge sum he has to first get permission from the manager. He asked her to wait, and went to the administrative section. There he presented the check to the head of the bank, who took one look at it and fainted!

    The doctor that was summoned quickly revived the bank manager. As soon as he gained consciousness, the manager asked that the woman who had brought the check be shown in to him. When told she had been locked up by security, he said that he must go to her; a great mistake had been made, to lock up such a righteous woman. He went quickly and, after apologizing, invited her to accompany her into his office.

    โ€œTell me, please,โ€ he opened, after they were seated, โ€œhow did you get this check?โ€

    She told him of her difficulties and the sudden appearance of her unknown benefactor. She explained about her deceased husband and his practice of daily maaser, and of the kaddishes she had arranged through the yeshivah for him and for those souls who had no one to say kaddish for them.

    He asked her: if she would see her benefactor again, or his picture, would she recognize him? She said yes. She added that two rabbis from the yeshivah were official witnesses to the whole episode, and that their signatures are on the back of the check, and that the man had also signed in their personal notebooks. The manager was excited to hear this, and after looking at their signatures, contacted the yeshivah to ask that Rabbi Sonnenfeld and Rabbi Shimon Sofer come to his office.

    They came and confirmed all that the woman had said. The bank manager then told the three of them that he would personally honor the check, as it was drawn on his own family account, but that his wife had to endorse it too. He then sent for his wife with the message that she should come quickly, because people were waiting for her, but first she should collect all the family photographs in the house and bring them with her.

    Although the bank manager was a Jew, his wife was not. When she arrived, he asked the widow and the two rabbis to wait in a different room. He told his wife what was going on, and said, โ€œLetโ€™s see if the woman can identify the man who signed the check from among these photographs.โ€ She declared that if it all turned out to be true, she would convert to be Jewish.

    The manager then spread out all of the photos on his desk. He asked each of the three to enter separately and see if the man who gave the check appeared in any of them. Each one confidently picked out the same person.

    The bank manager called everyone in. โ€œDo you know who is this man who gave the check?โ€ he asked. โ€œIt is my father, the manager of the bank before me. But he has been dead for ten years!

    โ€œI must confess,โ€ he told them, โ€œthat I never said kaddish for him. Last night he appeared to me in a dream. He said that he had been saved from Gehinnom by the kaddishes that she had arranged for the yeshivah scholars to say for those souls for whom kaddish was not being said, and now that she was in difficulty we must help her. He said that he would give her a check for twenty thousand kroner, and that if I didnโ€™t pay it, he would strangle me in my sleep.

    When the check was shown to me at the bank, I fainted.
    โ€œI woke up, frightened. In the morning I told my wife the dream, and she was disturbed too. When the check was shown to me at the bank, I fainted. I knew then that the dream was true.

    โ€œI will pay the twenty thousand my father promised, for it is certainly a deserving cause. Not only that,โ€ he added, turning to the woman, โ€œI will add another twenty thousand of my own, because you fulfilled my obligation for me, and helped my deceased fatherโ€™s soul with the kaddish-saying you arranged.โ€

    He addressed the three of them again. โ€œI fully regret my lapse from Judaism. I see now that our Gโ€‘d is the one true Gโ€‘d, and He gives to all their just reward. I resolve that from now on I will fulfill His commandments as revealed in our Torah. My wife, too, has reaffirmed her promise to convert and to live in accordance with Jewish law. Please guide us to understand what we have to do.โ€

    #1948407
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    ืกืคืจ ืื•ืจ ื–ืจื•ืข ื—ืœืง ื‘ – ื”ืœื›ื•ืช ืฉื‘ืช ืกื™ืžืŸ ื 
    ืžืขืฉื” ื‘ืจ’ ืขืงื™ื‘ื” ืฉืจืื” ืื“ื ืื—ื“ ืฉื”ื™ื” ืขืจื•ื ื•ืฉื—ื•ืจ ื›ืคื—ื ื•ื”ื™ื” ื˜ื•ืขืŸ ืขืœ ืจืืฉื• ื›ื˜ืขืŸ ืขืฉืจื” ื˜ืขื•ื ื™ืŸ ื•ื”ื™ื” ืจืฅ ื›ืžืจื•ืฆืช ื”ืกื•ืก ื’ื–ืจ ืขืœื™ื• ืจ’ ืขืงื™ื‘ื” ื•ื”ืขืžื™ื“ื• ื•ืืžืจ ืœืื•ืชื• ื”ืื™ืฉ ืœืžื” ืืชื” ืขื•ืฉื” ืขื‘ื•ื“ื” ืงืฉื” ื›ื–ืืช ืื ืขื‘ื“ ืืชื” ื•ืื“ื•ื ืš ืขื•ืฉื” ืœืš ื›ืš ืื ื™ ืืคื“ื” ืื•ืชืš ืžื™ื“ื• ื•ืื ืขื ื™ ืืชื” ืื ื™ ืžืขืฉื™ืจ ืื•ืชืš ื”ืœ ื‘ื‘ืงืฉื” ืžืžืš (ื”ืœ) [ืืœ] ืชืขื›ื‘ื ื™ ืฉืžื ื™ืจื’ื–ื• ืขืœื™ ืื•ืชื ื”ืžืžื•ื ื™ื ืขืœื™ ื”ืœ ืžื” ื–ื” ื•ืžื” ืžืขืฉื™ืš ืืžืจ ืœื• ืื•ืชื• ื”ืื™ืฉ ืžืช ื”ื•ื ื•ื‘ื›ืœ ื™ื•ื ื•ื™ื•ื ืฉื•ืœื—ื™ื ืื•ืชื™ ืœื—ื˜ื•ื‘ ืขืฆื™ื ื•ืฉื•ืจืคื™ืŸ ืื•ืชื™ ื‘ื”ื ื•ื”ืœ ื‘ื ื™ ืžื” ื”ื™ืชื” ืžืœืื›ืชืš ื‘ืขื•ืœื ืฉื‘ืืช ืžืžื ื• ื”ืœ ื’ื‘ืื™ ื”ืžืก ื”ื™ื™ืชื™ ื•ื”ื™ื™ืชื™ ืžืจืืฉื™ ื”ืขื ื•ื ื•ืฉื ืคื ื™ื ืœืขืฉื™ืจื™ื ื•ื”ื•ืจื’ ืขื ื™ื™ื ื”ืœ ื›ืœื•ื ืฉืžืขืช ืžืŸ ื”ืžืžื•ื ื™ื ืขืœื™ืš ืื ื™ืฉ ืœืš ืชืงื ื” ื”ืœ ื‘ื‘ืงืฉื” ืžืžืš ืืœ ืชืขื›ื‘ื ื™ ืฉืžื ื™ืจื’ื–ื• ืขืœื™ ื‘ืขืœื™ ืคื•ืจืขื ื•ืช ืฉืื•ืชื• ื”ืื™ืฉ ืื™ืŸ ืœื• ืชืงื ื” ืืœื ืฉืžืขืชื™ ืžื”ื ื“ื‘ืจ ืฉืื™ื ื• ื™ื›ื•ืœ ืœื”ื™ื•ืช ืฉืื™ืœืžืœื™ ื”ื™ื” ืœื• ืœื–ื” ื”ืขื ื™ ื‘ืŸ ืฉื”ื•ื ืขื•ืžื“ ื‘ืงื”ืœ ื•ืื•ืžืจ ื‘ืจื›ื• ืืช ื”’ ื”ืžื‘ื•ืจืš ื•ืขื•ื ื™ืŸ ืื—ืจื™ื• ื‘ืจื•ืš ื”’ ื”ืžื‘ื•ืจืš ืœืขื•ืœื ื•ืขื“ ืื• ื™ืืžืจ ื™ืชื’ื“ืœ ื•ืขื•ื ื™ืŸ ืื—ืจื™ื• ื™ืฉ”ืจ ืžื‘ืจืš ืžื™ื“ ืžืชื™ืจื™ืŸ ืื•ืชื• ื”ืื™ืฉ ืžืŸ ื”ืคื•ืจืขื ื•ืช ื•ืื•ืชื• ืื™ืฉ ืœื ื”ื ื™ื— ื‘ืŸ ื‘ืขื•ืœื ื•ืขื–ื‘ ืืฉืชื• ืžืขื•ื‘ืจืช ื•ื”ื™ ืื ืชืœื“ ื–ื›ืจ ืžื™ ืžืœืžื“ื• ืฉืื™ืŸ ืœืื•ืชื• ื”ืื™ืฉ ืื”ื•ื‘ ื‘ืขื•ืœื ื‘ืื•ืชื” ืฉืขื” ืงื™ื‘ืœ ืขืœื™ื• ืจ”ืข ืœื™ืœืš ื•ืœื—ืคืฉ ืื ื”ื•ืœื™ื“ ื‘ืŸ ื›ื“ื™ ืฉื™ืœืžื“ื• ืชื•ืจื” ื•ื™ืขืžื™ื“ื• ืœืคื ื™ ื”ืฆื‘ื•ืจ ื”ืœ ืžื” ืฉืžืš ื”ืœ ืขืงื™ื‘ื”. ื•ืฉื•ื ืื ืชืชืš ื”ืœ ืฉื•ืฉื ื™ื‘ื ื•ืฉื•ื ืงืจืชืš ื”ืœ ืœื•ื“ืงื™ื ืžื™ื“ ื ืฆื˜ืขืจ ืจ”ืข ืฆืขืจ ื’ื“ื•ืœ ื•ื”ืœืš ื•ืฉืืœ ืขืœื™ื• ื›ื™ื•ืŸ ืฉื‘ื ืœืื•ืชื• ืžืงื•ื ืฉืืœ ืขืœื™ื• ื”ืœ ื™ืฉืชื—ืงื• ืขืฆืžื•ืชื™ื• ืฉืœ ืื•ืชื• ื”ืจืฉืข ืฉืืœ ืขืœ ืืฉืชื• ื”ืœ ื™ืžื—ื” ื–ื›ืจื” ืžืŸ ื”ืขื•ืœื ืฉืืœ ืขืœ ื”ื‘ืŸ ืืžืจื• ื”ืจื™ ืขืจืœ ื”ื•ื ืืคื™’ ืžืฆื•ืช ืžื™ืœื” ืœื ืขืกืงื ื• ืžื™ื“ ื ื˜ืœื• ืจ”ืข ื•ืžืœื• ื•ื”ื•ืฉื™ื‘ื• ืœืคื ื™ื• ื•ืœื ื”ื™ื” ืžืงื‘ืœ ืชื•ืจื” ืขื“ ืฉื™ืฉื‘ ืขืœื™ื• ืž’ ื™ื•ื ื‘ืชืขื ื™ืช ื™ืฆืชื” ื‘ืช ืงื•ืœ ื•ืืžืจื” ืœื• ืจ’ ืขืงื™ื‘ื” ืœืš ื•ืœืžื“ ืœื• ื”ืœืš ื•ืœืžื“ื• ืชื•ืจื” ื•ืง”ืฉ ื•ื™”ื— ื‘ืจื›ื•ืช ื•ื‘ืจื›ืช ื”ืžื–ื•ืŸ ื•ื”ืขืžื™ื“ื• ืœืคื ื™ ื”ืงื”ืœ ื•ืืžืจ ื‘ืจื›ื• ืืช ื”’ ื”ืžื‘ื•ืจืš ื•ืขื ื• ื”ืงื”ืœ ื‘ืจื•ืš ื”’ ื”ืžื‘ื•ืจืš ืœืขื•ืœื ื•ืขื“ ื™ืชื’ื“ืœ ื™ื”ื ืฉืžื™ื” ืจื‘ื ื‘ืื•ืชื” ืฉืขื” ืžื™ื“ ื”ืชื™ืจื• ื”ืžืช ืžืŸ ื”ืคืจืขื ื™ื•ืช ืžื™ื“ ื‘ื ืœืจ”ืข ื‘ื—ืœื•ื ื•ืืžืจ ื™ื”ืจ”ืž ื”’ ืฉืชื ื•ื— ื“ืขืชืš ื‘ื’ืŸ ืขื“ืŸ ืฉื”ืฆืœืช ืื•ืชื™ ืžื“ื™ื ื” ืฉืœ ื’ื™ื”ื ื ืžื™ื“ ืคืชื— ืจ”ืข ื•ืืžืจ ื™ื”ื™ ืฉืžืš ื”’ ืœืขื•ืœื ื”’ ื–ื›ืจืš ืœื“ื•ืจ ื•ื“ื•ืจ ื•ื›ืŸ ืžืฆื ืžื•ืจื™ ื””ืจ ืืœืขื–ืจ ืžื•ื•ืจืžืฉื ื“ืชื ื ื“ื‘ื™ ืืœื™ื”ื• ืจื‘ื ื“ืงื˜ืŸ ื”ืื•ืžืจ ื™ืชื’ื“ืœ ืžืฆื™ืœ ืื‘ื™ื• ืžืŸ ื”ืคื•ืจืขื ื•ืช:

    #1948417
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The above has Rebbi Akiva written with a heh. It is based on a story why his sefer is called Ohr Zaruah. Rabbi Yitzchak of Vienna had a question whether to write Rebbi Akiva with an aleph or a heh?
    He dreamt to write it with a heh based on the pasuk ืื•ืจ ื–ืจื•ืข ืœืฆื“ื™ืง ื•ืœื™ืฉืจื™ ืœื‘ ืฉืžื—ื” which ends with the letters ืจ’ ืขืงื™ื‘ื”.

    #1948421
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    common saychel, where did you get this story from? If you understand the Hebrew above it is similar from the story of Rebbi Akiva.

    #1948443
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    WolfishMusings,

    “So, Iโ€™ve been wondering if I am guilty of wasting peopleโ€™s time and, if so, what can I do about it?”

    A few of my thoughts:

    1. When mispallelim come to shul to daven, the expectation is that kaddishes will be said, hence the brief awkward silences that occur before people realize nobody is saying kaddish and they move on. Since people have already mentally given this time to kaddish, it cannot be a waste, and you are actually preventing awkwardness by saying it.

    2. I heard someone recently ask a rav a related shaila at a late maariv – the man noticed that at the shacharis and mincha minyanim, there was a fellow who would say kaddish after aleinu if there were no mourners present. He himself didn’t have a chiyuv to say kaddish but felt drawn to doing so and was wondering if it was appropriate for him to so something like that at maariv. The rav said (in a simplified retelling) that it is considered a good thing to end the davening with a kaddish, and the man was welcome to say kaddish at the end of maariv if he wanted to. And so he has ever since. So adding kaddishes enhances the tefilla b’tzibbur, certainly not a waste of time.

    3. As others have pointed out, there is tremendous spiritual benefit to answer amein to a kaddish. So your question is kind of like asking, “at the end of davening I take a bag of gold coins and toss a few of them to each of the mispallelim. Am I wasting their time?”

    4. I think you are well aware of #3, so is your OP meant as a subtle criticism of how people trivialize davening (e.g., that sense of relief that ripples through the room when the shaliach tzibbur starts kaddish right after chazaras hashas signaling no long tachanun)? Or is it a setup for another of your “I’m a rasha” threads?

    #1948474
    Anan Sahadi
    Participant

    1. When mispallelim come to shul to daven, the expectation is that kaddishes will be said, hence the brief awkward silences that occur before people realize nobody is saying kaddish and they move on. Since people have already mentally given this time to kaddish, it cannot be a waste, and you are actually preventing awkwardness by saying it.

    PLEASE! people must learn how to handle awkward experiences

    but, great point you bring up!

    #1948503

    common >> this was done after consultation with a leading posek

    First, thanks for the wonderful bank story. As the story clearly says – the lady asked for one kaddish for her husband, and one kaddish for someone else. It is obviously more zechuyot to say more.

    I then consulted R Salanter. He let someone else be shaliach tzibur on his mother’s yohrtzeit and explained – my mother deserves that I do this mitzva (hesed to the other person) be done on this day. So, this establishes that hesed is not less a good thing for neshomah than extra davening.

    As to permissibility of reducing davening – our minyan already skips upfront, and there are multiple teshuvot what canbe reduced that I can summarize as “you can skip, but make sure it still feels like davening”. This is definitely a case here.

    On a simple level, shtika k’mode. Rabbi and gabbi heard me and did not correct. And they are quite capable of!

    #1948511

    common, here is a more specific Q&A regarding number of kaddishim:

    Q; May one sign-up to learn the same mesechta mishnayos in memory of two different people who recently died, and only learn it once or does he have to learn the mesechta twice? While Rโ€™ Moshe (IGโ€M Yโ€D 1:254) rules that by Kaddish at least one Kaddish daily must be recited for each individual niftar, I am not sure if this same concept applies by learning mishnayos. Rโ€™ Ephraim Glatt
    Answer: Rav Willig- Kitzur Divrei Sofrim Perek 55:246-7 quotes the Raโ€™anach who says that one kaddish can be said for two people because the zichron can be for two people. Divrei Sofrim suggests that this leiniency is only when the kaddish is for a parent and then a second person is added on. When it comes to mishnayos, it is even more important to learn twice.

    #1948534
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Learn some extra commentary (Rav,Kehati) for the mishnayos that you would not learn otherwise.

    #1948666
    Naftush-2
    Participant

    So I’ll be the devil’s advocate. I leined one weekday shaharit at Shomrei Shabbos. Beginning at my normal medium speed, I was asked after cohen to pick up the pace because otherwise the men would miss their train to work. At that place and time, normal-speed leining was a tircha de-tzibura! If I were saying a “voluntary” kaddish, I’d bear this in mind.

    #1948669
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @always ask, I love the story myself, I heard it when I was a child and it stayed with me.
    “On a simple level, shtika kโ€™mode. Rabbi and gabbi heard me and did not correct. And they are quite capable of!”
    That may mean the they are doing it lman sholam, not that its the way to do things, I always ask a shaila in regards to Yiddishkiet and I don’t always like the answer but I do it anyway

    #1948742

    Avram in MD, great post.

    To add to your point, Kaddish Yasom is actually supposed to be said regardless of whether there is a Yasom there (although not all of the Kaddeishim we say are mandatory).

    #1948747

    Beginning at my normal medium speed, I was asked after cohen to pick up the pace because otherwise the men would miss their train to work. At that place and time, normal-speed leining was a tircha de-tzibura! If I were saying a โ€œvoluntaryโ€ kaddish, Iโ€™d bear this in mind.

    Maybe your leining really is medium, but everyone probably thinks their pace is average, but not everyone’s is.

    The comparison is far from great anyhow, because the minyan must anyhow account for Kaddish, but not for a slow (or relatively slow) leining.

    #1948772
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    By the Wiener, Adas Yereim according to the Chasam Sofer, an announcement is made before alenu as only a yahr zeit can say tbat kaddish, if one is around.

    #1948999

    >> That may mean the they are doing it lman sholam, not that its the way to do things,

    Hey, you don’t know _our_ gabbi ๐Ÿ™‚ He can just look … We do have open line of communication

    >> I always ask a shaila in regards to Yiddishkiet and I donโ€™t always like the answer but I do it anyway

    We seem to differ in our definition of Yiddishkeit. I would rather be careful about not infecting people, rather than missing an extra kaddish.

    on a related note of priorites, I saw a quick teshuva from R Willig some time last spring. Someone asked about payments for broken contracts. He answered – now we are doing just dinei nefashot, keep money where it is, we will deal with mamonot later.

    #1949014

    “I would rather be careful about not infecting people, rather than missing an extra kaddish.”

    That’s not a choice you get to make without a rav. If you set your own priorities you are no longer making Hashem’s will yours.

    #1949018

    >> Thatโ€™s not a choice you get to make without a rav

    I quoted already multiple opinions about being careful. And also opinions about one kaddish being sufficient. Maybe you can verbalize what exactly makes you so uncomfortable.

    #1949077
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @Always ask,
    > “Thatโ€™s not a choice you get to make without a rav

    I quoted already multiple opinions about being careful. And also opinions about one kaddish being sufficient. Maybe you can verbalize what exactly makes you so uncomfortable.”

    Bottom line, did you just read some opinions and made a decision or did you ask a rov “rochel bitcha hakatan” a/k/a your exact situation, huge difference.
    This would be the equivalent of operating the grey area of the law by reading a law book and not consulting a lawyer, people ended in prison for that.

    #1949108
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 26, says that Kaddish is not as important as to designate some new custom and follow it for the zechus of the niftar.

    #1949428

    >> did you just read some opinions and made a decision

    a good question – when do we need to ask, and whom? I heard and read enough questions about kaddish that I don’t see my situation as unique or risky. These questions do not seem to depend on the particular person, unless someone is uniquely OCD or disorganized …

    I ask more often when the answer might differ depending who is asking.

    For example, I asked questions when I had problems with schools. One confirmed that my kid is not a problem, a school is (by referring to his own experiences) and hoped it will work out. Another one encouraged me not to be afraid of doing online (which we were reluctant at that point). When COVID started, I sent info about online resources around, the Rav resent it to many other Rabbonim, vouching for me, so I presume he did not mind.

    I also heard a question ask re:COVID – someone’s Rav was not careful about this – how one should relate to this Talmid Chacham? The answer was – you should still show him respect as to Talmid Chacham, but you should not ask him shailos.

    #1949453
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @always ask, “a good question โ€“ when do we need to ask, and whom? I heard and read enough questions about kaddish that I donโ€™t see my situation as unique or risky. These questions do not seem to depend on the particular person, unless someone is uniquely OCD or disorganized โ€ฆ”
    I assume you run your life where there are shades of gray the same way, a quick read and dont consult an expert.

    #1949520

    >> dont consult an expert.

    I quoted bunch of opinions and ways I consulted, I did not see you quoting whom you are consulting regarding COVID behavior. I asked several times. Maybe I miss some, I apologize.

    Still this is funny, as apparently you subscribe to Daas Torah and I do not (yes, I asked).

    #1949528

    AAQ – i think he means specifically. You have done impressive research on the various scenarios, but with halachos (and more) we bring our specifics to a rav. When we don’t, it means we chose to apply our situation to our research, and that is not foolproof. We do not always know if there are nuances or outside influences that apply, and we are very much nogea bdavar.

    I will often look up basic questions in the shabbos, kashrus and muktza books I have, but I can’t do that with shailos.
    Additionally, he did say he is maskless per a rav. Although i challenged it including anti mask behavior, there is no shortage of responsible qualified rabbaim AAND doctors telling people they do not have to wear them.

    #1949546

    Mrs Syag,
    thanks for clarifying. I think we have a profound disagreement here – which questions are important and, further, where chumrot are applicable.

    It would be a bad pun to say that “nobody died” because I said 1 kaddish instead of 3. I obviously showed chesed to freezing people. The Rav did not correct me. so, how bad it could be.

    You just can’t say the same about people not wearing masks, especially in the communities where so many older people died. “no shortage” of doctors is a strange reference. This illustrates that you are willing to approach this question in a much lighter way than question of liturgy. (Overwhelming majority of doctors tell people to wear masks. Re: rabbis, I quoted a psak above that one should not ask such Rabbis shailos, so it is a catch-22 here).

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