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Quoting a story from R Meir Twersky:
I heard the following story from my brother, Ha’Gaon Hakadosh Rav Moshe Twersky zt”l hy”d, who, in turn, heard it from Ha’Gaon Rav Gershon Zaks zt”l: There was once an emergency meeting of gedolim to discuss potential responses to a harsh, cruel governmental edict. The discussion continued through the day until it was almost sunset. One of the participants suggested that they should stop to daven Mincha. The Chafetz Chaim zt”l, astonished, lovingly reproached him: “Mincha ligt ihr offen kup?! Mincha is on your mind[8]?!” The importance and sanctity of tefilah (prayer) is indeed inestimable, and yet – in certain circumstances – it is forbidden to pray!
[8] Tur, Orach Chaim 93Mr. AAQ – I hear you, and I will leave the more educated here to respond to halacha, but if you don’t mind I would like to respond to your point.
Firstly, I’m not speaking to “my take” on this, this is the way halacha works. It isn’t a disagreement issue if we are meant to follow a rav. The disagreement may be on how we feel about the psak, but that does not determine the need to get one. And your choice of the word “chumra” indicates that you are seeing rules as options, or requirements as strungencies. That to me sounds like the pitfall of being nogea bdavar but I would prefer someone more learned speaks to that point.
Next, your bad pun… i get your point. I really do. Im still trying to convey that that is not your choice to make, that is merely your opinion on the choice (does that make sense? ) And you end with the rav not correcting you. I cannot pasken on his motives without knowing details, but I can think of at least three reasons why he might let it go. So you shouldn’t assume.
Regarding my doctor comment. Once again you rely too heavily on your assumptions of meaning (which i see as potentially connected to the above issue as well). People should ask their ONE rav and their ONE doctor. I made the comment with the intent of warding off a comeback like I got from another poster falsely insinuating that there is a small handful of the aforementioned who sit in a room wairing for people to come to them from far and near for that lone opinion. Meaning, there are many out there so do not think so many people are lying when they claim to each be following their own doctor’s advice.
(I hope that was clear enough to explain my point)“Overwhelming majority” is not relevant here.
This is very hard to convey to people in fear but please understand that your frustration and pain in seeing someone make light of a health concern for halacha is no less, or maybe even yes less frustrating and painful as seeing people make light of halacha for a health concern. (Please don’t falsely apply that to other health situations. Halacha is very precise in their use of percentages)
@AAQ,
“Still this is funny, as apparently you subscribe to Daas Torah and I do not”
This has nothing to do with “Dass Torah” that you unartfully put down, this has everything to do with deferring to someone who knows the subject matter better then you do.
I don’t sign a contract before a a lawyer reviews it even though I deal with torts daily as per of my job,
I would not buy a house before I check it out with a check it out by a stuctual engineer even with my engineering degree because that is not my focus of my specialization.
I don’t read a manual on root canal and do it myself or read a repair manual and fix my own car, I defer to Endodontist and trained mechanic on my make of car.Like it or not, a Rabbi is a expert in Halacha and each case is different, I am proud to acknowledge my limitation and I strongly suggest you put your ego aside and do the same.
>> People should ask their ONE rav and their ONE doctor.
this is not always true. Specifically, in a case of unknown entity like a new virus, it is prudent to ask multiple doctors and take into account the worst case. this is according to Rav Twersky above, some other poskim, and Dr. AAQ himself. If your Rabbi is making this mistake before paskenining, please explain it to him. Some local Rabbis here initially tried that – just call their friendly frum doctor form a well-known institution. This is still daas yahid.
Quoting a story from R Meir Twersky:
I heard the following story from my brother, HaโGaon Hakadosh Rav Moshe Twersky ztโl hyโd, who, in turn, heard it from HaโGaon Rav Gershon Zaks ztโl: There was once an emergency meeting of gedolim to discuss potential responses to a harsh, cruel governmental edict. The discussion continued through the day until it was almost sunset. One of the participants suggested that they should stop to daven Mincha. The Chafetz Chaim ztโl, astonished, lovingly reproached him: โMincha ligt ihr offen kup?! Mincha is on your mind[8]?!โ The importance and sanctity of tefilah (prayer) is indeed inestimable, and yet โ in certain circumstances โ it is forbidden to pray!I hope he wasn’t using that story to prove people shouldn’t daven with a minyan during Covid
He was using it as an example that the mitzvah of caring for human life overrides everything else.
He also quotes R Chaim Soloveichik who directed a person to add fire on shabbat for the doctor to better see a sick child when the doctor was reluctant to ask for it. The person hesitated, and R Chaim said that the person is both am haaretz and an apikoires …he leads to this thesis: One who makes light of the mandate of pikuach nefesh is not only making light of one isolated halacha. Rather, he is guilty of distorting and perverting the entire Torah. His flippancy depicts the laws of the Torah not, r”l, as “merciful, kind and just,” but as vengeful and vicious. It goes without saying that such a distortion constitutes a chillul Hashem….mischaracterizing our compliance with social distancing as a mere capitulation to the standards of outside entities had significant practical ramifications. The standards of all outside entities do not value life as absolutely as does the Torah. Tosafos (Yoma 85a) comment, “‘You shall live through them and not die due to them’ [means] that we must under no circumstances allow for the death of a Jewish person.
You can bring a million stories and points but you are missing the basic fundamental point that these were guge people making these conclusions and we do not have that authority. There is no way you are lacking the ability to understand what we’re saying, so i will assume the pushback is about not being ready to hear it. I pray it is because it is a madrega to conquer, and not because of influence of a rav. I admire you’re sincerity and pray you develop the strength to see Hashem’s Will as your own. Much hatzlacha.
So, if you were the person hesitant to switch the light on, you would accept Rav’s rebuke, but you would not accept mine? Would you call the Rav to clarify?
same essay address a similar point: “An authority who allows himself to be consulted [when a life is in danger] is reprehensible, and he who consults him (rather than speedily acting to save the life in danger) is a murderer” (Tur, Orah Hayyim 328). Maimonides, that master of conciseness, deviated from his regular manner and treated this issue with great elaborateness… [Rav Soloveitchik, in the original, inserts the previous citation of
Rambam.]
[AAQ: R Yosef Soloveichik was part of that story also – he was that sick kid]For the last time(unless somehow this makes the point):
1. You CANNOT take a situation with life in the balance and extrapolate for a .1% death risk. Halacha is exacting with percentages required for taking risks, redusing treatments, accepting experimental drugs etc. Read Rabbi Tatz’s book on the subject
2. You cannot read a story about something and decide to apply it to something you have personally deemed equivalent. You are not qualified AND you are nogea bdavar. This is halacha, not chumra.3. You don’t present yourself as an egotist, why are you so resistant to such a fundamental requirement.
The comparison is so off it’s scary.
Yes, you don’t ask a shaila when someone’s life is in immediate danger. That has absolutely nothing to do with skipping parts of davening. If being at the minyan was actually dangerous you wouldn’t be there to begin with. You should have asked a shaila before davening which certainly is not time sensitive.
So it’s a huge chutzpah and azus for you to be making the decision in your own.
Ironic considering your screen name.
DY >> Ironic considering your screen name
thanks for a good question!
I was just thinking today that I got a misleading name! AAQ does not stand for “always ask shailos”, it stands for “always ask kushios”.. .As R Steinsaltz ZT’L used to say – Eskimos have hundred synonyms for snow, Arabs – for sand, and Jews – for “question”.
So, AAQ stands for trying to analyze the issue deeply and with integrity, reducing noise and bias of preconceived opinions. You are trying to make into an opposite – only some “gedolim” are allowed to think, the rest should tremble (haredi?) to decide any simple issues. In this case, I am trying to show that your trembling somehow disappears for issues that affect well-being of people around you.
I was just thinking today that I got a misleading name! AAQ does not stand for โalways ask shailosโ, it stands for โalways ask kushiosโ..
The biggest kashya is on you for not asking shailos when appropriate.
Is asking shailos always good? Can shailos be ever bad?
I saw a last year response from r Willig re:yeshiva contracts changing due to Covid – we are now dealing with dinei nefashot, dinei mamonot can wait, just keep money whether they are for now.
Once my Rav was giving a class on business ethics in halakha. He mentioned, inter alia, that Polish responsa had a lot to say about it, but then, I think from 17th century (possibly coinciding with economic decline of Poland as grain became less needed in the West) –
most of responsa became about kashrut of pots and pans and no more business ethics Q&As.So, we had a short conversation:
Me: So it is _your_ fault?
Rav: No, it is _your_ fault.Hope you can unpack this.
He’s saying that people don’t ask enough shailos in Choshen Mishpat. He’s right. Rav Moshe Feinstein lamented that people didn’t ask enough shailos in Hilchos Tzeddakah. He was also right.
You are even worse. You don’t even ask shailos in Orech Chaim!
@AAQ, how far do you take this lunacy?
Do you DIY root canal after read a manual??
Do you DIY auto repair after reading a manual?
Do you attempt to repair major appliances after reading a manual?
Do you build your own house after reading a manual?
Or do you just limit yourself to paskening your own shailos@Daas, ok, glad that we are on the same page. I may have sharpened this issue too much to get my point across. I do ask Orech Chaim shailos when I have them.
@Common – also a fair point. I do ask experts on all of the above. Total probably comes to 5 max per year. This is reasonable. Disclosure: I did try on major appliances with a mixed success, but I learned a lot!
@Daas, Heโs saying that people donโt ask enough shailos in Choshen Mishpat.
To go deeper, our focus is not infinite. You will have priorities in what you are thinking/ doing/ learning/ davening about. This may be subconscious. As you just slipped above – “even Orach Chaim”. “Even”? Because it was earlier in your yeshiva curriculum? The way I see it, there is no “kal vehomer” here. Issues relating bein adam lehavero are harder by definition as
(a) there is generally no one answer as issue depends on people involved
(b) as every issue l’havero also have an aspect l’makom, you need to do it right once
(c) mistakes l’havero have to be forgiven by that person, and might be harder than being forgiven by Hashem !It may be that we, as a community, re-focused on mitzvot l’makom as a natural reaction to Reform, communists, etc to build a protective wall. This is like proverbial burns after jumping into the fire to save someone. Jumping was the right thing to do, but the burns are real and need to be addressed.
I do ask Orech Chaim shailos when I have them.
You are too quick to assume you don’t have one.
โEvenโ? Because it was earlier in your yeshiva curriculum?
No, because more people ask those than ask Choshen Mishpat shailos. You probably don’t ask enough of either.
Not sure what the rest of your post even means or how it relates to this discussion.
DY >> You are too quick to assume you donโt have one.
this is, of course, a valid concern for all of us. I personally was involved in a couple of competitive intellectual pursuits over years, so I know what I don’t know reasonably well. As an illustration of me knowing my limitations, I realize that I can’t convince common sechel that I am not doing my halachik root canals – nor do I need to.
More generally, routine memorization of material will not give you an ability to know what you don’t know. One would hope that Talmud learning should give you some feeling what you can and what you can’t figure out. Maybe ask your own Questions and answers, and then go thru commentaries to see if you made a mistake…
Another story (with the same Rav): he gave a parsha dvar Torah on shabbat first to non-observant students, and then to observant. When he entered the second room, he would stand for a minute without saying a word. I knew that he typically discussed same issue that bothered him in multiple talks during the week. So, I asked him why he was pausing. Was it a trick to force listeners to quiet down? He admitted that the topic was the same, but he explained that he needs to re-work how he talks about it: students from Jewish schools were trained to listen, but he wanted them to first understand the problem and (sic!) start asking questions. So, he had to push them further.
I personally was involved in a couple of competitive intellectual pursuits over years, so I know what I donโt know reasonably well.
Apparently not well enough.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“I personally was involved in a couple of competitive intellectual pursuits over years, so I know what I donโt know reasonably well.”
I’m not sure you are getting the point of why it’s important to ask a shaila regarding skipping kaddishes. This isn’t about how much you know. You may well know of opinions that allow skipping things in davening, but if you really felt sure about the ground you stood on, you wouldn’t be writing things like the gabbai sees me do it but doesn’t object – that’s rationalizing. In fact it’s even worse, because you’re essentially relying on a gabbai who doesn’t even know he’s being silently asked a shaila for your psak rather than directly asking a rav. When you paskened skipping kaddishes for yourself, you did what you thought best and followed your own will. Our goal as Jews is to follow Hashem’s will. We put Him in the driver’s seat, not drive ourselves and hope He came along for the ride because the gabbai didn’t object. And the best way to do that is to ask a shaila of a rav who is not nogeia b’davar. Asking shailos isn’t always because you “don’t know.”
Avram, I was totally not nogea b’davar: I was not in a hurry and not cold. I did not need rationalizing. I would prefer to say all kaddishes. I saw other people being cold. I agree that if I were to have personal inclination to skip, I should have asked the Rav in the minyan. The problem was – the Rav might have been cold, so he was nogea b’davar :). He would have been forced to tell me to say all of them in order to resist his own yetzer harah! In truth, if I were nogeah b’davar, I would not have skipped.
As to Hashem’s will, maybe He wants us to take care of other people despite our desire to say an extra kaddish – rather than ask shailos about it.
In the spirit of joint learning for all of you guys and gals who are commenting, please notice that you seem to put in the worst assumptions about any missing pieces in my story: I had my own interest, I don’t know whether my Rav will correct me or not. Notice what you are doing here: you first dislike the idea that I did not ask a shailoh, then you go and find all proofs, instead of making reasonable assumptions.
This from the guy who said im shameless of my sins – my sin being thst boys in yeshivos 600 miles from me had covid. Talk about assumptions….
Nogea bdavar is not an insult, it’s a status.
>> Nogea bdavar is not an insult, itโs a status.
it’s a status I did not have, because I was not following my own preferences.
It might be seen as an insult to presume that I would have acted while nogeah b’davar, but given that we are just the screen names here, it is not an insult, just your mistake in logical thinking.
What you guys are adding here, I need to make sure I am not Nogeah b’davar. There is a way to achieve that, courtesy of Alter from Slabodka. He did not want to waste his learning time and go honor a certain visitor. To make sure he is not just lazy, he walked to the house where the visitor stayed, then turned and went back home. So, I should have walked around the block on the way home.
No, you should have asked a shaila instead of making your own assumptions
let’s just at look at Peshat: when Moshe was carrying the Tablets – which one was he holding in the right hand, and which one was heavier?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Avram, I was totally not nogea bโdavar: I was not in a hurry and not cold.”
Those are not the only factors that would make you nogea b’davar.
“I did not need rationalizing.”
So why are you? You have not stated any direct halachos or opinions in this thread that you are relying on for skipping kaddishes. Your main arguments have been rebbe stories that are irrelevant to the issue at hand and the fact that the gabbai and rabbi at the minyan are not directing you to say the kaddishes. That is textbook rationalizing.
“I saw other people being cold.”
So perhaps it is your personal rachmanus that makes you nogea b’davar. Or perhaps like the OP you feel embarrassed for some reason making people wait for you. Who knows? Unlike what you accused below, I’m trying to avoid speculating. All we see is that you have made a controversial halachic decision without consulting a rav, And when pressed on it you have provided no halachic basis, only rationalizations, and you have decided to make not asking a shaila your hill to plant your flag on and make your stand. And that’s a really strange hill on which to make a stand. Everything you have brought forth in the rebbe stories about not asking a shaila pertains to pikuach nefesh situations where taking the time to ask a shaila may increase the danger. This situation is NOT equivalent. At worst it is a question of tircha d’tzibbur (and I maintain that a regularly scheduled kaddish is NEVER tircha b’tzibbur). It is incorrect to extrapolate from one to the other. And we have psakim for these situations, not maybes and rebbe stories.
“I agree that if I were to have personal inclination to skip, I should have asked the Rav in the minyan. The problem was โ the Rav might have been cold, so he was nogea bโdavar :). He would have been forced to tell me to say all of them in order to resist his own yetzer harah! In truth, if I were nogeah bโdavar, I would not have skipped.”
That’s not how things work. The rav cannot change his psak based on whether or not he is cold. The halacha is the halacha, so he is not “forced” to tell you one way or the other based on his feelings. If he’s concerned that his personal involvement may color his psak somehow, then he can ask his own shaila.
“As to Hashemโs will, maybe He wants us to take care of other people despite our desire to say an extra kaddish โ rather than ask shailos about it.”
Just ask the shaila. It’ll take 5 minutes and you can remove the “maybe” from your sentence! We don’t want a lot of “maybes” when doing Hashem’s will. That becomes very dangerous very fast.
“please notice that you seem to put in the worst assumptions about any missing pieces in my story: I had my own interest, I donโt know whether my Rav will correct me or not.”
I am only responding to what you have written. I have made no assumptions about your motivations or anything else.
It is better to leave the sefer torah open when making the first bracha on it and looking aside when saying it in order to avoid opening and finding the place again because of tircha detzibera which is multiplicative, by waisting people’s time, aveira. If a wrong sefer torah was taken out by error than pegima of the torah takes precedence kal vechomer how to watch not to be pogem in a Jew who has a holy heavenly soul.
Reb Eliezer,
So you quoted two specific halachos regarding tircha d’tzibbur. Does this mean we can use tircha d’tzibbur to cut things out of davening without a shaila? What about tachanun? Kaddishes? Chazaras hashas? Pesukei d’zimra?
@Reb Elizer, that’s very nice and how that have anything to do with the subject at hand of skipping kaddish without ask a shaila?
common saychel, the whole shaila over here has to do with tircha detzibura, waisting other people’s time, for which I said to minimize kaddishim. We satisfy the requirement without saying all kadishim.
See MB O’CH 55,1 from the Baer Herev.@Reb E, do you also do DIY root canal or limit yourself to paskening your own shailos?
common saychel, I am not paskening your shailos. For myself, I do the research and try not to burden the Rav with shailos I can answer myself.
There is a shaila but not this one. If someone hires one to say kaddish for his/her behalf, there, I think, since he is saying kaddish in place of a chiyuv, should say all kaddishim and certainly it is not a waste of time.
@Reb E, why burden your Dentist or Car Mechanic you can do it yourself
I don’t think this is worthy of an answer. We have a mitzva to learn Torah but not being a doctor or a mechanic. so I cannot do it myself. I thank Hashem that He gave me the means and the abiliity to research it. All by one exists by none.
We take out, if possible, two or three sefer torahs to avoid mishing (turning to the place) the torah in public in order not to waiste people’s time. What is necessary is necessary, so we don’t cut it out. The more people there are the greater the aveira. The question alwsys is, if tbere is way around it.
Possibly the tzibur can forgive their tircha, so ask the tzibur if they mind you saying all kaddishim as there is no one else to say it.
RebE, thanks for helping with the sources.
An interesting note: I was not hired. If there was a chiyuv, I should have asked him. A good point.Those who say tircha is not a big deal, maybe forgot the beginning of the thread: this is an outdoor minyan on a cold windy day. Piskei d’Zimra and kadishem before were already skipped. Nobody is sitting, kal vehomer talking. (Those who feel that masks are a threat should feel even stronger).
But I think the main contention here is not a specific halakha as nobody brought a source for opposite, or called up their Rav and asked them. The issue raised is whether we are allowed to deal with issues ourselves or need to ask any time there is a change from daily routine. This is, in truth, a good question highlighting our lives today – pretty routine and predictable (pre-Covid) and ability to constantly communicate. So, as there is helicopter parenting, there is helicopter paskening. If you are in the presence of someone who knows Torah better, you should not pasken. But what if the Rav is just a text away? in truth, phones already made Rav Feinstein available after he was able to get out of USSR, but it may be more a cultural phenomenon now as everyone texts.
You do realize that Jews were able to live kosher lives before texting, though? And life was also not always as routine. And people were used to change their own oil and make their own wool. Your question is then – are we allowed to continue act on our own when we can text the Rav or the parent? This related to Tzimtsum that Hashem, and wise parents practice.
My other argument is that we always choose what is important to ask. I recently quoted a responsa from last April: right now, no questions about dinei mamonot, only nefashot. The counter-argument seems to be – hey, yes, we know we should ask more about Hoshen Mishpat, please do, but first , there is another O’Ch shaila we need to finish. I saw a simple rule in a sefer: parent/spouse should be 80 positive. So, make 4 positive comments, then you can allow yourself one negative.
Try the same with shailos for at least 50-50: do not ask about l’makom before you asked about l’havero. Any takers?
But I think the main contention here is not a specific halakha
Correct
The issue raised is whether we are allowed to deal with issues ourselves or need to ask any time there is a change from daily routine.
No, if I switch from Cheerios to Corn Flakes, I don’t need to ask. Skipping Kaddish, yes.
Try the same with shailos for at least 50-50
No, you missed the point. It’s a siman, not a sibah.
Ok, true, if you realize that your priorities are wrong, perhaps focusing on finding bein adam lachaveiro shailos is a good trick to realign your priorities, but the shailos aren’t the essential issue.
The source is Yoma (70,1) and SA O’CH 144,3 which indicates that the tzibur can forgive their kavod.
@Reb E and AAQ, my Rav is a bucky bshas and has 3 heter horas and certainly does not waste his time on the internet, he sits and learns in his every free moment, yet when it comes to a serious issue like skipping a kaddish for whatever reason he would not hesitate to ask a rav who is on the next level just to make sure his reasoning is correct.
The laissez-faire attitude of I can open a sefer and pasken for myself when it effects others is a sure sign of amahrztitz.
PS As to the motivation ever heard of the expression “the road to hell is paved with good intentions”I’ll try one more time.
The Aruch Hashulchan in Orach Chaim:ืืื ื ืงืืืฉ, ืืฉืื ืืืจืืืช ืืงืืืฉืื
ืกืืื ื ื ืกืขืืฃ ื
ืืฉ ืืืืื ืื ื ืืฉืจืื ืฉืกืืืจืื ืฉืืฆืื ืืืจืืืช ืืงืืืฉืื. ืืืื ืืืขืื ืื! ืืงืืจื ืื ื ืขืืืื “ืชืฉืชืคืื ื ืืื ื ืงืืืฉ…”. ืืืื ืืฉืชืืฉืื ืืฉืจืืืื ืฉื ืืื ืืืื ืืืืืื ืืงืืืฉ ืืจืื ืืื ืจืง ืืคื ืื ืฉืืจืฉื ืืืชื ื, ืืืืจืื ืืื ืืืืื ืืืืจืช ืงืืืฉ.ืืืืจ ืืชื ืืื ืืืืืื ืืคืืกืงืื ืืกืืื ืื, ืืืฉื ืฉืืื ืืืขื ืืืจืืืช, ืืื ืื ืืื ืืืขื ืืงืืืฉืื (ืื ืกืช ืืืืืื). ืืืื ืืืืื ืืืืืื ืืืกืืืื ืฆืขืง ืืจื ืขื ืื (ืืืกืื ืืืจ ืฉืืืื ืืชืฉืืื ืกืืื ืงืค”ื, ืืืื ืืืืจ ืืืื ืกืขืืฃ ืงืื ื’), ืืื ืืฉืื ื:
ืืืจืืื ืืืืืจืช ืืงืืืฉืื… ืืืชืืฉืื ืืื ืงืืืฉืช ื’ ืืืืื ืืื ืืจื…
I wasn’t permitted to present my case, but here it is.
rational, see above reply #1950956 saying the same from MB 55,1 and the Baer Hetev there as quoted by you.
@Reb E,
Does reading some medical journals make you and expert on infectious diseases?
Does reading case law make you capable of arguing a case before the US Supreme Court?
Does learning some seforim make you capable of paskening shailos?
the answer is a resounding NO on all 3.rational, Reb Eliezer, and Always_Ask_Questions,
We are not talking here about adding extra kaddishes. We are talking about skipping kaddishes that are part of the set davening, e.g., after R’ Yishmael omer, after mizmor shir chanukas habayis, and after the shir shel yom (I’m assuming the one he does is the one after Aleinu). Those kaddishes certainly do not fall under the category of unnecessary or added, so I do not see how the halachos you are pasting are relevant to the shaila. This is not about being flippant with Hashem’s brachos or kaddishes. We are supposed to say those kaddishes and get great merit for doing so.
In fact, the rampant misapplication of halachos to this discussion only underscores the absolute necessity to ask a shaila of a knowledgeable rav.
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