Wasting Other People’s Time

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  • #1951303
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Always_Ask_Questions,

    “Those who say tircha is not a big deal, maybe forgot the beginning of the thread: this is an outdoor minyan on a cold windy day. Piskei d’Zimra and kadishem before were already skipped. Nobody is sitting, kal vehomer talking. (Those who feel that masks are a threat should feel even stronger).”

    Now who’s filling in the blanks with the worst possible assumptions? I did not write tircha b’tzibbur was no big deal, nor did anyone else on this thread that I recall. It is a big deal; however, saying kaddish is also a big deal. And we need to sort out which “wins” halachically in this specific case. And you decided for yourself to not say kaddish, but seemingly based it on gedolim stories that dealt with pikuach nefesh and the fact that you went ahead and did it and the gabbai/rabbi didn’t object. I don’t think that reflects the serious consideration or requisite knowledge that this shaila and those kaddishes deserve. You may discover that your course of action is correct per the rav in this particular case, but it is far better to have that certainty than a bunch of maybes. We don’t get on the freeway thinking, “maybe I buckled my kid in his car seat… I am a strong believer in safety belts, and he’s not piped up that he’s not buckled.”

    #1951306
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    And since we can apparently pasken with stories, here’s a famous one:

    A Jewish man who worked in Moscow’s diamond exchange was walking to work one morning, when an older fellow accosted him on the street and asked him to help make a minyan so he could say kaddish (he had a yartzeit). The man followed the older man into a small shul, thinking he was number 10, and the guy would learn some mishnayos, say kaddish, and share some nosh. But upon entering the shul, he saw he was number 6, and the older man went back out into the street to find more Jews. He waited for a while as the man slowly found some other men, and finally there was a minyan. To his shock, the man began davening shacharis from the beginning. He felt some annoyance, and told the man he needed to get to work, but the older man shushed him and said he had yartzeit and would say all of the kaddishes and davening. The man grumbled, realizing how late he’d be to work, but didn’t want to break the minyan by leaving. So he stayed, and the older man davened the whole shacharis, said some mishnayos, and shared some nosh. When the man went back out into the street, there was a great commotion. That day, the Bolsheviks had staged a coup and taken control of the government, and Jews were being rounded up and arrested at the diamond exchange. By delaying him with the davening and kaddishes, the old man had saved his life.

    #1951359
    rational
    Participant

    Avram
    That is incorrect. The kaddishes you mentioned are not obligatory on the tzibbur. They are not part of the set davening, I don’t know where you got that from. Every single siddur I have seen calls them “Kaddish Yasom”, to be said by a yasom. It’s very clear. They are there to give an avel an opportunity to recite kaddish. IF there is no chiyuv, they should not be said, with one exception, the kaddish after Aleinu. This is mentioned in the Aruch Hashulchan, I just didn’t quote it. By definition, filling in all the kaddish spaces bynon-avelim or yahrzeits confers on them the status of “kaddishim m’yutarim” , superfluous kaddishim.

    #1951375
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    rational,

    Always_Ask_Questions I believe has a chiyuv.

    #1951390
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @rational Try tuning up your car or replacing your own roof, its less dangerous paskening and not being qualified.

    #1951409
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    rational,

    And do you have any comments on the idea of paskening for oneself based on stories and implicit permission through not getting rebuked? Do you think a shaila should not be asked?

    #1951415

    Avram, thanks for the Moscow diamond story.
    Note the differences between my examples and yours: my were about learning from what a Rav did and often with an explanation. This is straight halakhic reasoning. Of course, it may be possible to argue that the story is not true, or that there are other opinions, or other circumstances. Yours is a story that something happened. ext, you’ll tell me that bat kol confirmed your position?!

    The story is interesting, I can’t resist asking kashios: how did Bolshevik coup in Petersburg happen in Moscow, and why did some Bolsheviks went after Jews on that day instead of going after the Provisional government as they were supposed to? Maybe someone paid some diamonds to get out after Bolshevik revolution and needed a story to explain how he escaped.

    #1951421

    It would be good if those who feel that there is a problem here, went and asked their Rav. Maybe we can learn something here? I do understand your emotions – Yiddishkeit contains lots of ritual acts; we are habitually under assault; so we need to protect ourselves.

    Still, logically, there should be more shailos about lhavero than l’makom. Most mitzvos l’makom are not changing quickly over time and do not change over a person (except strict shiurim that our zeides did not use). Mitzvos l’havero depend on the person you interact with. So, you may be asking whether you are allowed, for example, to post on YWN disagreeing with someone – many times. It may well maybe that you can reply to AAQ in a way you would not to Wolf or GH …

    As an exampl, I just listened to a class on Purim: long discussion whether one is yotze when a present is not accepted and a cursory note: of course, things are different this year, people will not congregate and drink in my house. I asked a couple of doctors and they say, giving matanot is not generally a problem. By me, a novel issue would require a little more investigation: would people actually meet and some talk? would they cough while packing? would they start giving it to each other in a crowd after megilla reading? But, no, it is more scholarly to go through all achoronim on an issue that will not affect most of us.

    FOCUS on what is important.

    #1951457
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    AAQ, we discussed the mitzva of mishloach manos what the mitzva is in another thread:
    See https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/purim-7

    #1951532

    RebE mitzva of mishloach manos

    thanks for the reference. I think one can clearly deliver MM safely and halakhically correct. I can pack it 2 days in advance with gloves and put a note to that effect. This is more of a public policy issue: – how would a community behave.

    I am thinking that better not to participate. Last Purim, when issues were not yet well understood, I had to duck from several huggers. Delivering MM is supposed to make people friendlier. If I’ll be bumping into semi-dressed drunk people and walk around them, it will not contribute to ahavas yisroel.

    #1951572
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    Yup a much of amaratzim pakening their own shailos, an even better idea encapsulated your whole house and protect it with a electric fence, I am not paskening just giving a eitzah, just my gesture of ahavas yisroel.

    #1951698
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    common saichel, a person faults others with his/her own faults but a smart person knows what to pasken by oneself and what to ask.

    #1951735
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @Reb E, a smart person is someone who is bitul his own yesh and relies on his ruv for guidance in halacha ie Moshe Rabbanu and Yshua ben Nun etc., I don’t have the azus to pasken shalois especialy in regards to halacha such as not saying a kaddish

    #1951744
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Use your common saichel, Moshe Rabbenu told the judges to bring the hard judgements to me. Did you see all the posts about saying all kaddishim. You are busy with your own beliefs and don’t bother read all posts. Let peiple decide whether they want to go to a Rav or not. When it comes to azus, as I said before, one faults with their own faults.

    #1951775

    common > especially in regards to halacha such as not saying a kaddish

    common, let’s be positive (thanks again, Mrs. Syag) ! we are absolutely on the same page.

    I did not have azus to disregard halakha of tircha in such extreme situation, when seeing my fellow Jews showing such mesiras nefesh, trying to keep their hands and feet warm, while still holding a siddur. Not one left early. Not one tried to move out of shade into the sun at the expense of neighbor’s place. Some of them, relative after- or in-college youngsters, who probably never experienced such challenge before. If you would have seen such nachas with your own eyes, you would have rachmonus on them too, as rachamanut is said to be a sign of Jewish nations as taught by “Moshe Rabbanu and Yshua ben Nun”.

    Still, waiting if you have asked your Rav (when explained both the kaddish and the freezing part) and whether he thinks differently. I would be interested to hear his arguments.

    #1951778

    PS a story to support the argument for both me and common to ask our Rabbis:
    a friend of mine long time ago lived in a kipa sruga neighborhood and was bothered that his slightly pre-bar-mitzva son would play soccer and not go with him for mincha to the shul one block away. So, my friend took a bus with his son and me to a posek in Mattesdorf, hoping for the posek to give chizuk to the boy. The posek asked the boy how long does it take to say mincha on his own, and then asked whether the boy can interrupt soccer game and say mincha on the side of the field. The boy agreed and the father was shocked. Moved to a more yeshivish neighborhood eventually.

    #1951818
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Always_Ask_Questions,

    “Note the differences between my examples and yours”

    My purpose in bringing that story was to show that we do not pasken from stories. That is not how Judaism works. You are not the rabbis in your stories, and your situation is not like theirs. Also, I believe you are misapplying the message of those stories you’ve brought. The strong reaction from the rabbis regarding someone asking a shaila when there is a safek pikuach nefesh is to teach us to never delay in acting when there is a safek pikuach nefesh. The message is NOT that shailos are to be avoided when possible in all matters.

    “This is straight halakhic reasoning.”

    No it’s not. It’s not even close.

    “how did Bolshevik coup in Petersburg happen in Moscow, and why did some Bolsheviks went after Jews on that day instead of going after the Provisional government as they were supposed to?”

    I was recalling the story from memory, so the specific details may not have been correct. Whatever. I’m not the one trying to pasken from a story.

    #1951820
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @AAQ, I didn’t ask this shailoah to my Rav because it was not an issue for me, I have been davening indoor since May 2020, and when we davened outdoors the person saying kaddish said them all with no issues, just as I always ask for guidance from a Rav for halacha limiysah I dont ask “ah be tzu fragin”.
    My issue is people jumping to conclusions without spending 5 minutes calling a rav to find out if they are doing is khalacah.
    @Reb E, when you are at the level of learning of the Dayanim in Moshe Rabbaniu time you should have no issue of paskening your own shalios, even if your at the level of a contempary posek of our time, Rav Moshe Feinstein, Rav Moshe Bick, Rav Wosner, Rav Elyasiv, The Stipeler ZTL etc. etc. then you can pasken your own shailos

    #1951821
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer,

    “Use your common saichel”

    You and rational have brought in sources but have failed to answer this specific shaila. You talk about tircha b’tzibbur, but kaddish yasom said by a chiyuv is NOT tircha b’tzibbur. And rational brings halachos about a non-chiyuv saying kaddish yasom, but we are talking about a chiyuv. This is not a matter of what’s the bracha on corn flakes. This is a real shaila that deserves to be asked. And given Always_Ask_Question’s clear lack of knowledge of the halachic process, I am rather surprised that you would discourage him from asking a shaila of a rav. That’s dangerous.

    #1951832
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Always_Ask_Questions,

    “But, no, it is more scholarly to go through all achoronim on an issue that will not affect most of us.

    FOCUS on what is important.”

    Yiddishkeit is not a zero sum game between mitzvos l’Makom and mitzos l’chaveiro. To think that focusing on one causes loss in the other is the influence of the yetzer hara. One should focus on and be stringent in both, because both are important. Those who have said otherwise have gone on to form things like Christianity and Reform Judaism.

    #1951853
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Most kaddishim besides the chazen are optional depending if they are a chiyuv, otherwise it is up to the ztibur’s permission.

    #1951860
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Rav can pasken if it is a chiyuv but if not, we need the tzibur’s permission, the Rav cannot be matir against the tzibur’s will.

    #1951918
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @reb E how about asking him [the rav] in the first place?

    #1951876
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Ask the tzibur if they are makped to say all kaddishim. If they are, then ask the Rav if the OP case is a chiyuv. Or asks the yasom to hire you with a penny or make you a shaliach.

    #1951927
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer,

    “The Rav can pasken if it is a chiyuv”

    Boom. Thank you.

    #1951880
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    AAQ,

    Tircha is usually noted when there will be time that nothing is occurring. Such as waiting while sifrei Torah are rolled. But can you show me somewhere where it says you can just eliminate a part of davening because of tircha?

    Further, the leaps of logic you take in your posting leaves us this thoroughly unsatisfied with your ability to be maven Dovid mtoch Dovor.

    #1951986
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    nishtdayngesheft, anything unnecessary forced on a tzibur is a tircha, especially if people stand to answer on a kaddish, as mentioned in MB 55,1 from the Baer Hetev and Aruch Hashulchan there not to increase kaddishim. Therefore if no chiyuv exists, one kaddish should be said without the tzibur’s approval. Our rabbi does not even allow a loud kedusha. For an example that an extra tefila is a tircha, see O’CH 126,3. On Rosh Chodash if the chazen forgets yalah vayavo, he goes back to ratzeh to say it except in the morning because of torach hatzibur as he will mention Rosh Chodash by musaf.

    #1952016
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    An interesting shaila occured when the Rav was not there. It was Rosh Chodash Chanukah and the baal tefila just said Al Hanisim when it came to his attention that he forgot Yaaleh Vayovo. so he goes back and says it, does he have to repeat Al Hanisim. I said that the invidual would repeat it but the baal tefila does not because he already accimplished his parsumei nisei when he said it, so it would be a tirchei to repeat it. Later I wrote a detailed teshuva justifying my decision. Many poskim agreed with me and some did not.

    • This reply was modified 14 hours, 19 minutes ago by Reb Eliezer.
    • This reply was modified 14 hours, 16 minutes ago by Reb Eliezer.
    #1952045

    @nischt: you can just eliminate a part of davening because of tircha

    minyan already skipped pesukei d’zimra. There are numerous recent teshuvot for COVID about it. One teshuva offers a klal: you can skip some parts, but it should not be so short that it just feels like it just touches the main points: shma -> shmone esre -> aleinu.

    you may be right whether this is “tircha”, I see that you and RebE started a scholarly debate. You can call it tzaar baalei chaim. People were freezing. Some people may go over their limit of cold without realizing it. Especially, American city youngsters.

    rebE – there was no issue of getting up. Nobody was sitting for a long time (first sign that they were cold). Maybe I had a choice of saying all kadishim faster than you can say Mississippi, but it seems I feel the same way you do: when there is a strong reason to skip, just do it firmly.

    L’Maase, I once observed a Rav, who is proud of slow davening, going super-fast and skipping one kaddish (in Sephardi nusach). Then, doing some tehilim slowly. I asked – he said the 10th told him he was about to leave for work.

    #1952046

    RebE: Later I wrote a detailed teshuva justifying my decision.

    Curious, how did you avoid being biased by your original decision when looking up sources!?
    Unless, you had all sources in your mind when you made the original decision

    #1952085
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Sometimes you have to use your intuition to pasken from your knowledge on the spot and hopefully you have the help of Divine Intervention not to make a mistake which later I was able to prove. If I wasn’t able to prove it, I admit I made a mistake saying what Shimon Hamasini said, the way I gained reward on the darishe, deduction of halacha, the same way I gain reward for the parishe, from refraining from it, so no bias involved but only to arrive to the truth. I made a ruling because the Rav was not there.

    #1952098

    RebE, agree on R Shimon darshening “es”, my favorite example of intellectual integrity.

    Famous Psychologists Kahneman/Tversky talk about crystallization: if you get 2 contradicting pieces of information, the person tends to accept the one that came earlier. That may explain why people have hard time changing their opinions about politics or COVID as they get attached to their first impression.

    #1952099

    PS Crystallization – and this is of course straight out of Hoshen Mishpat: judges are not supposed to listen to one litigant without the other.

    #1952157
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @Reb e, the only thing that is bigger then your ignorance is your self aggrandizement, you should seek some help, whoops I forgot you don’t ask other peoples opinions

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