What Did He Gain?

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  • #617488

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    Sorry… just airing out.. really bothers me.

    I was yesterday on a plane coming back home from Eretz Yisroel. There was this really chassidishe looking bochur (I think), in the seat in front of me, just one to the left. I was squished in between an oversized (scary looking) man on one side and a extremely not decently clad woman on the other. So I put a blanket between us, and tried as much as possible to keep apart, separate etc. I brought a nice book to read (fascinating English Artscroll Tehilim, try it!) and it more or less kept me out of trouble for the duration of the (very long) flight. I’m just human (sorry for letting out that secret) and, as every one does, I scanned the area from time to time, between naps, looking in my book etc. And while I really had to avert my eyes from looking at my neighbors’ screens, I was utterly shocked at what I glanced at this ‘chassidishe’ bochur’s screen. Time and again. And it was on the whole time! (maybe he shut it off when I napped) Besides the utter chilul HaShem, what did he gain in Eretz Yisroel?

    I’m not the type to tap a stranger on the shoulders and say something (esp. something like this!), maybe had he looked at my direction I would have told him something. Donno. I’m just shocked!

    #1145433

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    What a kiddush hashem! Even the people who watch things that shock LF the entire flight, still go to Eretz Yisroel and still dress like yiddin!

    #1145434

    midwesterner
    Participant

    And here all along we thought you were amphibian!!

    #1145435

    golfer
    Participant

    PBA, are you a Berditchever einikel?

    #1145436

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Lf,

    A few haaros,

    1) I see you really are a guy

    2) how can you say tehillim in the presence of someone untznius?

    3) where was your family?

    #1145437

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    Al Rishon Rishon;

    1) How do you SEE I’m a guy? Scary!! My computer screen doesn’t even have a camera, you put in a bug somewhere?!? I’m getting paranoid!

    Now, for the umpteenth time, I NEVER claimed otherwise. At once I had a childish, immaturish, blitheful face here (don’t get me wrong, I still am!), I NEVER mingled chas v’sholom, always kept clear of ‘other’ convos. A cursory glance at profile history will suffice. I chose my face for a specific reason, which did in fact serve me.

    2) I didn’t write I was saying Tehillim, I wrote that I read (learned) from that wonderful sefer/book. Its easy reading, easy especially on a tired, exhausted, zonked head, and the ideas and lessons stay for a lifetime. And I wrote, if you missed it, that I strategically placed a blanket between us, so that I shouldn’t have any problems. Though I was locked up there for most of that L-O-N-G flight from both sides, I was pretty much OK, with that cute ‘einfal’.

    3) My family? Why is that an ha’aroh? Anyways family was on terry firmy. I’m not yet a millionaire, I don’t generally take family on every trip I take. (times are changing… maybe I’m becoming.. I’ll share with my best buddies here!!!)

    #1145438

    blubluh
    Participant

    The question of what did this bochur gained from having been to Israel when he’s subsequently observed viewing inappropriate material is an odd question.

    Since there’s no way for us to know what spiritual level this young man was on prior to his visit, similarly there’s no way to assess what positive influence his visit to Israel had on him.

    Perhaps the better question to ponder is what improvements we can make in our own lives and the lives of those who learn from our behaviors to counteract the negative influences around us.

    #1145439

    Bored_on_the_Job
    Participant

    LF

    1. Why would you or anyone have told him anything?

    Are you usually receptive to mussar from complete strangers.

    2. I am not chassidish, but I do not see why it is relevant to your story what sect of judaism this guy was from?

    3. Why is it relevant to your story to mention your personal holy behavior while on the plane, averting your eyes, reading a tehilim?

    Someone might get the impression that there might have been some self righteous feelings going on here

    #1145440

    flatbusher
    Participant

    It really is not your place to say anything. It’s like telling an obese person you need to go on a diet. This bochur probably knows he shouldn’t watch, or maybe he doesn’t care. Maybe reprimanding him would drive him away from Yiddishkeit. If it doesn’t personally affect you, live and let live. I suspect people know a lot more about the things you bring to their attention than you realize.

    #1145441

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    flatbusher – i may agree with you except for the bit about live and let live. that comment applies when you tell me you like mushrooms on your pizza and i prefer garlic. when a bachur, or any yid for that matter, is sitting in front of a tv, computer, ipad, phone or otherwise filling his eyes with images that burn holes right thru his neshama and will possibly haunt him well into his marriage even if he stops cold turkey today – the response is not “let live because it doesn’t personally affect you”, the response is to cry silently for him and to say a kapital tehillim and beg Hashem to guide him to better places.

    #1145442

    golfer
    Participant

    Well said, Syag.

    ‘Live and let live’ is one of those expressions that sounds good with our born in the USA ideas of life liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. But it doesn’t always make sense in a life based on Torah. We’re more concerned with our unalienable obligations and responsibilities to our Creator and to our fellow man, than with our ‘rights’.

    #1145443

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    One should always give mussar when you see someone watching a movie on an airplane or if there is a partial knee showing

    But if there is any financial misconduct , We should always belive in the best in people and live and let live, only hashem knows if they are doing anything wrong

    #1145444

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It is every Yid’s place to day something if it would be of benefit. Hocheiach Tochiach requires it.

    Whether or not it will help depends on the circumstances, but “live and let live” is not inherently the Torah view.

    #1145445

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    Bored_on_the_Job:

    I’m sorry for implying such, c”v. And I didn’t do anything ‘holy’, just trying to keep ‘clean’, out of trouble. And yes, I hope I am receptive to constructive (destructive too) criticism, mussar. That’s what a true friend does. Of course, if it’s said in an appropriate manner, it’s dissolved better, easier. That’s an art to be learnt. But yes, I hope, I truly hope to be receptive to Mussar, from ANYONE.

    Why I mentioned the ‘chassidish’ looking – for the fact of the enormous Chilul HaShem he was making, I was SO ASHAMED!!! (I am sorry I couldn’t find the guts to say something appropriately – that’s part of my problem – I can’t speak up in real life – that’s why I hide in the CR and spew my mind off)

    And why I mentioned about the matav around me – sorry – I was just inundated with all the indecency around me. I guess I shouldn’t have mentioned it.

    Syag, you put it down so eloquently…

    #1145446

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    Flatbusher..

    Sometimes, even if one is doing something wrong and one know it, having another talk to him properly, appropriately, graciously will help him in the now and in the future to overcome Nisyonos. I’m not blessed with the power of speech, nor words (nor sechel), I don’t think I would have accomplished much, I only regret I didn’t try.

    No, I’m not a tzaddik by any means (putting it mildly), sometime a word even from an anybody would do.

    #1145447

    flatbusher
    Participant

    My point is you really are taking a chance if you don’t know anything about the person you wish to address. Granted, if you know the person and his/her situation and you know he/she is accepting of suggestion or criticism, maybe, but I don’t agree in this situation when a total stranger is involved. I would resent it.

    #1145448

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    i agree that musser is not always welcome and that it can do damage when someone is looking for a reason to run. IF i was going to say something to that boy, it might have been to ask him a question or two, or three…maybe four in the fashion of the Chofetz Chaim who tried to occupy the time of those who might be using it for bad speech otherwise. He would totally catch on to what you were doing, and possibly appreciate the subtle approach, and choose on his own to reciprocate or not. But you will have done your hishtadlus and not stood al dam re’echa, so to speak.

    #1145449

    Joseph
    Participant

    Giving tochacha is an obligation every Jew has to give to every Jewish brother when he’s sinning. Halachicly. Required. The only exception, according to halacha, is if you know with certainty it will not work and it will backfire. If there’s even a slight chance it might be helpful it is halachicly obligatory to reprimand. Privately and sweetly at first and publicly if the private admonition failed. That is Hashem’s rule.

    The requirement for everyone to give Tochachah

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/stop-minding-your-own-buisness

    #1145450

    apushatayid
    Participant

    What did he gain?

    Wherever he now, he is probably further along than he would have been before sliding back.

    #1145451

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    joseph – let me give you a little piece of friendly advice here in the privacy of the internet —

    your style of tochacha qualifies as the exception. not prone to building, and pretty known to damage. You should probably cross it off your list. That would be Hashem’s rule.

    #1145452

    Bored_on_the_Job
    Participant

    Syag – I like your tochocha! 🙂

    #1145453

    Joseph
    Participant

    That’s at odds with numerous success cases of folks doing teshuva after my tochacha. In real life, no less. But in any event, as the Sefer HaChinuch says, if it doesn’t work privately then it is to be done publicly.

    #1145454

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    —>speechless<—

    (or biting my tongue)

    #1145455

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Joseph

    Do you give tochcha to Abusers or people who commit financial sins?

    #1145456

    Joseph
    Participant

    Absolutely.

    #1145457

    Bored_on_the_Job
    Participant

    Josephs type of tochocha is abuse!

    I dont think we need to argue against it.

    Anyone who has any experience in being mechanach ppl, their own kids or any one else would know that you must tread carefully in the area of tochocha.

    #1145458

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Little Froggie – You make the assumption that because the bochur was dressed like a Chossid, he was a Torah Jew. That assumption is incorrect.

    1: Chassidish garb is the “in” fashion for many designers. I read an article about it somewhere.

    2: The person may have been Orthoprax, and did not consider you to be a Torah Jew that he needs to protect himself.

    3: The person may be “off the derech”, and Israel (or America) may have been the final attempt to try and change his Mazal.

    Ignore Joe. You had no idea what the circumstances are to even begin to give Tochacha.

    #1145459

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    Why are people here so biting?!? I didn’t mean my thread as such.

    #1145460

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Why are people here so biting?!? I didn’t mean my thread as such.

    You seemed very upset about someone watching something on his screen and its not even clear what it was. There is a big differnce between PG and “Adult” movies and there is a great divide in-between, and of course you were reading Tehillim. It comes off as Holier than thou. You seemed like you were looking to condem someone for something you considered a Sin

    #1145461

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    zd – as someone who occasionally agrees with you, i have to say that i disagree with you more than completely.

    #1145462

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    SY

    Its ok, I am not offended. i doubt people here agree with me much at all.

    #1145463

    MDG
    Participant

    ” Besides the utter chilul HaShem, what did he gain in Eretz Yisroel? “

    No one is purely a Tsaddik or a Rasha, nor are all of their actions. I would like to believe that this person gained from E”Y, and that one action does not negate it entirely.

    “maybe had he looked at my direction I would have told him something.”

    I think that if you first made some connection, however small, like engaging in small talk, you might have had a better chance. Even asking about his movie may have reminded him that he in not alone and he can’t hide his actions. Often the yetser hara gets a person when they are out of their element and when they think that no one is watching.

    BTW, I am not good at confronting people, so take my words with a grain of salt (and a few more grains of sugar).

    #1145464

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    ZD, Again (and again), as I wrote earlier, I truly regret that picture, that idea that you’re getting of me. No – I was not out to get at anyone. Controlling myself is enough a feat. I was just trying to hang on to any thread of normal decency, an echo of Kedusha, mere hours after being on holy soil…

    YW won’t allow me to describe what I glanced upon… nor do I or anyone else here have a need or want. I (B”H) have no idea what the rate codes you enumerated were, only that it was pretty not so pretty. As Syag so eloquently wrote – something enough to burn right through the Neshamah. I don’t think HaShem uses any rating system.. And the thing was on THE WHOLE TIME!

    No I wasn’t necessarily looking for trouble or ‘someone to step on’. I truly regret any indication of such I expressed.

    #1145465

    flatbusher
    Participant

    Zahavas Dad: I was going to post something similar to what you wrote.

    Joseph: Maybe tochacha is the rule but who said what he was doing required it? Maybe in your personal space you find watching movies an aveira, but others don’t feel that way. I would not doubt this bochur knows the various opinions about movies and he has decided that he is OK, so what would be the point of your tochaha? Impose your own standards (and of similarly minded people) on someone who has chosen differently?

    As for Little Froggie, about his going to eretz Yisroel. The sad reality I discovered on my very first trip is that how many locals living in the holy city of Yerushalayim are totally unaffected by its holiness. Some of the things I observed were truly astonishing, so one has to be open to the ruchnius and want it to seep into one’s neshama. Again, knowing nothing about this bochur, your attitude is quite presumptuous. It’s like reading a title of book and without opening it, making conclusions about it.

    #1145467

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    zd, i meant regarding your post, your take on the situation and thinking that a pg movie is safe enough to actually drag that into this discussion. when someone indulges in things that they shouldn’t be, it is appropriate to be pained.

    i would bet a hundred bucks that if LF didn’t give the whole detail of what he was doing at least two of you would have jumped in with, “oh yea, and what were you watching”. knee jerk response to someone else caring about a yid. if he said something wrong to the kid you could go to town on how wrong or right it was, but this post seemed to be more about how he felt about it.

    #1145468

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Maybe in your personal space you find watching movies an aveira

    Sorry, you don’t get to decide to be mattir issurim for your personal space (it is obvious from LF’s wisely vague description that there was nothing iffy about it).

    #1145469

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    There are reasons other than religious reasons to politely ask someone not to watch certain types of films in front of you.

    #1145470

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    flatbusher – youre joking, right? you think a bucher in chassidish levush decided the movie was okay?

    I may not agree with Joseph’s form of tochacha (or most other opinions of his), or if tochacha would even have been appropriate here, but do you really think that there’s nothing wrong with watching movies in the first place?

    I grew up watching movies and i can tell you there is not a movie out there that is kosher. there is kol isha, nivel peh, lack of tznius in concepts, skin and behavior and the story lines are primarily love stories. except for the one’s that are heavier on the violence. even when i watched movies, i wasn’t thinking they were “okay”, I was just thinking that i was allowed to see them. being raised with permission to do things does not make those things appropriate for you, it just means your mom won’t mind that you went.

    i have friends who drink hot coffee in ceramic cups in traif retaurants. they have decided that that is something they will do. their friends don’t care, their parents don’t care. does that mean that my knowing it is asur is my narrow minded opinion?

    #1145471

    Joseph
    Participant

    flatbusher: Watching movies is an aveira whether someone thinks so or not.

    #1145472

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I also read LF’s post as discussing, perhaps venting, about how he felt about the situation, and I do not see any gaavah or condescension here, just sharing a painful incident, the details of which paint a more accurate portrait of the context affecting his experience.

    Perhaps those who accused him of acting holier than thou owe an apology.

    #1145473

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    BTW>>>>>>>>

    For those who asked what he gained by going to EY. Perhaps, he was merely leaving EY? Just the beginning of a trip down OTD

    #1145474

    squeak
    Participant

    Torah lo bashamayim he. You all are like that guy who watched a rav eating on a plane without washing or making brochos

    #1145475

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    DY: Thanks!!

    and Squeak: Right on!! – Torah lo bashamayim he, that’s it to a tee. He DEFINITELY had no Torah bashamayim. Question is where he did!

    And just for argument’s sake (oh how I love them), I do think it was slightly wrong for a Jewish looking Rav to do so in the open without letting onlookers on to his situation. Gemarah speaks very harshly about Chilul HaShem, and Gemarah states that an Adam Chashov to be openly lax in Mitzvohs would be effecting a Chilul HaShem. Besides the mitzvah to be ‘clean’ from G-d and man – ?????? ?????. So it certainly behooves a Rabbi looking individual to explain his actions when they apparently contradict Halacha.

    Now on to my incident, care to elaborate or enlighten us perhaps to a chazal, halacha, passuk or mekor that says “you’ve had enough Yiddishkite, you’ve filled your soul to the brim, now it’s perfectly OK to indulge in <unmentionable>”?

    #1145476

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Al T’hi Tzaddik Harbeh? (jk)

    #1145477

    squeak
    Participant

    LF you mangled my message badly. He definitely has torah while on the ground and also knows the halacha while in the air.

    #1145478

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    Oish…

    Squeak.. I’m writing EXACTLY what you intended… Torah lo bashamayim he.. he had no torah in shamayim.

    Are YOU perhaps mangling it’s phrase, it’s meaning?!?

    And pray tell, what in the world are you referring to “and knows the halacha while in the air”? WHAT HALACHA?!?

    #1145479

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    ive been an onen four times, and while i do remember eating without brachos, i dont remember anything about watching movies.

    #1145480

    TRUEBT
    Participant

    I agree with RebYidd23. An indirect approach is usually the best way to go with a stranger.

    Joseph – I know of around 10 people who take credit for making me frum. And they all have a point. Each one helped me take the next small step. The long short road that Rav Mendel Weinbach ztz”l told us about has many small steps. Thank you for helping your fellow Jew take a step in the right direction.

    LF – Perhaps what he gained was that he was forced to live without his movies for a while. Perhaps he took the first, small step towards breaking free.

    #1145481

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Occassionally I have travelled across the Atlantic. usually these flights leave in such a way that they fly overnight and you arrive at your destination in the AM. When Ive flown to Europe, after dinner most of the passengers are either watching the video or sleeping or watching the videos and falling asleep. the plane is pretty quite so you can sleep.

    When I went to israel since most of the charedim did not watch the video they would get up from their seats , mull around the plane and talk to their friends. The plane was so loud you could not sleep. It was even louder than davening.

    I dont know what this unknown chassid was doing or who he even was. But while watching the video might have disturbed himself. I really doubt other people cared. They just dont care, they do their own thing. However if he had gotten up and talked to his friend and kept up half the plane would that have been so much better?

    #1145482

    Mammele
    Participant

    ZD: We all have choices and he needed to do neither of the above. And when I travelled to Europe some years ago some people were actually reading. Maybe it’s become out of style nowadays but I hope not on a trip to Israel.

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