July 24, 2011 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #598178
Late last week I was invited to give a research presentation to a prestigious conference. But the time for the presentation was to be on Shabat, so I turned the invitation down immediately. Incredibly, in 16 years, this is the first time that this has happened. I was sorry for the non-Jew who gave me the invitation that I was not able to come to the conference panel he was organizing but I was proud to be able to declare myself as a Jew who does not break Shabat for work.
I put “given up” in quotes in the title because we of course understand that the real reward for mitzvah observance is not material. I have been blessed in that for the past ten years I have worked for a Jewish institution and am in a profession whose major professional conferences are not on Shabat. But most of us have had to say “no” on occasion to things that were it not on Shabat we would certainly have done. And there are many career paths for which Shabat is much more difficult than it has been for me.
Please share examples of situations where you found that you had to make the choice in favor of Shabat observance, and how that affected your life.July 24, 2011 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #790137mommamia22Participant
Not quite the same type of giving something up, but years ago I went on a shabbaton from arachim in the mountains. We left too late and had to park our car before shabbos started, miles away in a strangers driveway and walk to the shabbaton. We arrived, walking, on shabbos, with only the clothing on our backs. People were so nice. They gave us pajamas, clothing, etc. It was truly embarrassing, but such a nice feeling to be surrounded by many chassidim (we are not chassidishe) treated so warmly, like family.July 24, 2011 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #790138skiaddictMember
ive never had an issue with shabos prob cos im still pretty young, but there are SO many things i give up on a day to day basis because i want to stay frum and do what Hashem wants- every single yid gives up things all the time, and i really get so inspired when i hear personal stories, however ‘small’ because it can be so difficult.
Actually, there was a time, couple of months ago when there was an event going on friday night and i was pretty desperate to watch it, i knew places where they would have it live on TV but at the last minute i stopped myself from going to watch on shabbos- i watched it later online, and it was an amazing feeling!July 24, 2011 3:12 pm at 3:12 pm #790139600 Kilo BearMember
behaveJuly 24, 2011 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #790140
I would say most frum Jews give up many things on a daily basis to be frum. We give up hours of our time to Tefillah and Torah and chessed, we give of our money…July 24, 2011 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #790142
Relationships with family*
Relationships with friends (Jewish, non-Jewish, secular)
Some less-than-desirable middos (that’s an ongoing process)
Caring what people with bad middos think (a looooong ongoing process)
An attitude that needed giving up (part of the processes above)
Caring what my hair looks like (mostly a relief)
Shorts (don’t miss them)
Participating in semi-professional performing groups (that I do miss)
Non-kosher types of entertainment
Nice cars, house, picket fence
Other relationships/things dear to me that I can’t list because there are probably people here who can already guess who I am
*yes, we tried to be conciliatory, in many ways for many years. Finally for the sake of our shalom bayis and the chinuch of our children, we cut our losses. We keep contact to a minimum now.July 24, 2011 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #790143
Giving money is not “giving up”. When you give you form a connection in your soul with the party that you are giving to. You actually gain alot more than you think you “lose”.July 24, 2011 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #790144cvParticipant
Only my aunt, who lives far away, accepts us in a way we are. The rest of the family simply ignore us. We are crazy in they eyes and they don’t need crazy people around.
Pants, tv, movie, not kosher food, etc. not a big loss. They are not missed.
Getting harder to work without vacation, 15 days vacation my company gives = days of Jewish holidays in a most of the years.
Would be nice to be on Yom Tov with grandchildren, but not enough vacation days to travel to/from another state.
I will not say we “gave up”, I will say “we made our choice”.July 24, 2011 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #790145
I gave up not anything of any trouble to me when I became more religious. True I did not eat any further treif. That was a good thing.
But that said, what I’ve gained is so great.
I also have started listening to music I never liked before and even watching TV cartoons once in a while. And I mean things like hard rock alternative music today. Its not anything that I dont think my Creator wants me to hear.
I have stopped watching movies, but its not becuase I am religious its just because they are a total waste of time.July 24, 2011 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #790146jmj613Participant
I grew up in a very modern family but with time we the children became more frum than our parents. There are things that I don’t feel I gave up bichlal like chalav akum any other food issue or TV. It became so obvious that I really never felt I miss it. But things like goishe music and sometimes movies is something I can say I still crave but try really hard not to fall back to it. one issue that disturbs me very much is that I can’t eat by my parents. Only on pessach when we, my wife kids and me, go for seder we eat there because everything is 100% ok.July 24, 2011 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #790147
Giving up certain musical pleasures is not FRUM, its self denial. You can live an ascetic life if you want. But for me, I did it a while and it is not my life.July 24, 2011 9:43 pm at 9:43 pm #790148
I liked wanderingchana’s post, and mostly I can say it goes for me as well. We gave up ties with old friends, neighbors, acquaintances, and broke lose from the family. Breaking all ties.
I gave up goyisher good rock and roll. I gave up my long hair, my freedom, and bookshelf filled with philosophies. I threw out all my kids’ fairy tales and curious george books. I threw out lots of clothes, photos, and non kosher dishes.
I turned in my license to freedom and free spiritedness. Stopped hitchhiking across America and searching for happiness. I stopped emailing links to the past, and stopped watching “All in the Family” with Archie Bunker.
I stopped being a fanatic about recycling and eating an organic vegetarian diet. I stoppped dreaming about the sculptures I’d make, or the tapestries I’d embroider.
I gained a new perspective when things went wrong. I stopped blaming everyone and everything and saw it was Hashem.
I gave up my name I had grown up by, and stopped riding in the front seat, for tznius.
In short, I have not given up enough. I want my life and my soul to be a korban offering.July 24, 2011 10:40 pm at 10:40 pm #790149
arwsf – beautiful.
I forgot about the pictures I threw away. oy… but I do still have Curious George in Hebrew!July 24, 2011 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm #790150
Giving money can be “giving up” when you’re giving tzedakah instead of buying a new blinking, beeping tchotchke. “Giving up” is a positive thing here.July 24, 2011 11:24 pm at 11:24 pm #790151
In short, I have not given up enough. I want my life and my soul to be a korban offering.
I think that this thought causes a lot of people to get depressed. Becoming frum is the realization that your Father is the King and He has all the money in the world. He’s inviting you to move in with Him. You don’t look at the porridge you used to eat and say, “well I used to make a really great porridge, its too bad I have to give it up now to eat thick steaks on gold plates with wine in crystal cups and decadent chocolate cake.”
Its brought down in seforim that after a tzaddik dies, the malachim bring his neshama to a mizbeach shel ma’alah and make him into a korban. Out job is to make ourselves into tzaddikim, the malachims’ job is to make us into korbanos for Hashem.
Bringing korbanos is an avodah. And the ikkur of any avodah is to do it besimcha, not b’inuy hanefesh. I suggest to anyone who feels this way, to speak with your rov or have your husband speak with his. Find a way to some extent do things that you enjoy in a kosher way. The yetzer hara’s biggest tool is to depress a person. Once you are besimcha you can and will reach madreigos that are above and beyond anything you’ve reached until now.July 24, 2011 11:33 pm at 11:33 pm #790152Yoin from BPMember
I’m an FFB. Nevertheless, it gives me great chizuk to read the mesiras nefesh of the posters above and to truly appreciate our glorious heritage all the more.July 25, 2011 12:00 am at 12:00 am #790153
Wow.. Derech Hamelech, YOu are my Rebbe. LOL
Ok that is exaggerating, but what I just read that you wrote gave me a good new perspective and also the goosebumps.
That is really neat.
Its great how you can come up with these mooshils. Like having eaten porridge and now complaining about eating off golden plates.
How do you do it? ARe you a maggid shiur?July 25, 2011 12:22 am at 12:22 am #790154
I find myself agreeing with you often. There is no Inyan to cause oneself distress. We have a Torah which tells us how to live. Hashem doesn’t want us to make up our own commandments and devise imaginative ways to serve him.
“I stoppped dreaming about the sculptures I’d make, or the tapestries I’d embroider.”
Im an FFB and I never heard of the commandment “Thou shalt not make tapestries or sculptures” yes there are certain sculptures which may be a halachic problem, so find out which ones are permissible.
And what’s this business of not riding in the front seat? Being a BT doesn’t mean you should be an extremist. Hashem wants normal healthy Jews who keep the Shulchon Aruch. Don’t make up crazy chumros that will make you miserable.July 25, 2011 12:50 am at 12:50 am #790155
I am a spiritual extremist by choice. I took the ultra ultra orthodox upon myself, by choice. I live amongst a sect that is known to be shtark and extreme. However, I do not regret that. Its just that sometimes I feel like I am lonely at the top.
Sometimes I feel like I was sitting on a landscape and that I worked very hard with a scissors to cut myself and landscape off from the surrounding map but now I am isolated floating .alone.
neighbors don’t replace family and ..whatever. sorry to complain.July 25, 2011 12:56 am at 12:56 am #790156metrodriverMember
Charlie Hall; I don’t have a First Person story to tell but I’ve heard and read many cases of talented young people who risked promising careers for the sake of observing the Jewish Religion. They stood their ground and stuck to principle and in the end they had both, their career and did not have to compromise their religious belief. The most outstanding case that comes to mind is that of the young Hockey player from Montreal, Canada by the name of Melnick, who was so good in high school that the Major League Hockey team the Montreal Canadiens (Not a spelling error. This is the way they spell it.) wanted to give him a spot on their team. But most of their practice sessions were on Shabbos. The young player stood his ground (By not attending the practice on Shabbos) thereby risking the team dropping him. And after a while the team worked out a deal where he would not have to attend. Whoever lives or has in the past lived in Canada knows what Hockey means to Canadians. The passion that surrounds it is like major league baseball and NFL football at playoff time combined.July 25, 2011 1:28 am at 1:28 am #790157
always runs with scissors fast
Extremism is very dangerous…like running fast with scissors in hand 🙂
The Mishna is Avos said over 2000 years ago that everyone should have a Rav for guidance. All the more so a BT who needs even more guidance as he/she doesn’t have the Torah upbringing and background that a typical FFB has. I can’t stress this enough. You should really find a Rebbetzin who you can click with. She doesn’t have to be chassidish, she just has to be someone who has a sympathetic ear and can understand you and give guidance when necessary.
Something I personally have found very rewarding is to listen to shiurim online on the various Torah topics that interest me. Please check out Torahanytime.com Im sure you will find many Ravs and Rebbetzins there to be very entertaining as well as spiritually nourishing and uplifting.
As I said, Im an FFB but with that being said, due to some mistakes I made many years ago, I find I need constant reinforcement and must constantly keep my head in my Yiddishkiet to feel fulfilled. Im sure as a BT you have a similar need for spiritual nourishment. Hatzlacha with everything and I wish upon you that Hashem grant you clarity and menuchas Hanefesh so that you may constantly grow in your connection to Him and be zoche to actualize the true expression of your innermost being.July 25, 2011 1:55 am at 1:55 am #790158cvParticipant
You really had to give up a lot. For me everything was much easier. I came to US, when I was not observant, with $191.00 in my packet (leftovers after I paid for all paperwork to get out from country I was born) and 64 lb of luggage (all what I was allowed to take with me). I left everything behind before I became BT. It was nothing to give up any more. The only things I had to change – not appropriate clothes, way of thinking, acting, TV. I even did not have to give up movie, concerts, etc – at that time I didn’t make enough money for it any way. What was really painful – to be rejected by my family. But I found my Father in Haven.July 25, 2011 2:16 am at 2:16 am #790159
I do not feel I have really given any thing up. Not anything that I didnt want to have any how. But that said, I was just in my bedroom reflecting on the once treif filled life that I once thought was clearly the future and the highest of ways of life. I have to say I was thinking of the fact that the last time I had a lobster was in 2000. I used to really like crab. It was the highest of dining pleasures. I think about the children who never have or will ever have that and I admit it makes me feel quite cultured on one hand but quite contaminated in the past on another.
So its good to keep kosher. I just can not say that is really giving anything up. But get this folks, I have decided this past shabbas that I am going to go one step further and be a vegitarian. I admit it is not on the Jewish calling card per se, but I finally realize through some reading of other vegitarians that it is a higher way of ethics and I have also deemed it to be the only way that you can truly not eat the blood of another animal. So thats it from here out. But that said, I will continue eating fish, eggs and milk products.July 25, 2011 2:24 am at 2:24 am #790160
basket of radishes. go figure. you want to be a vegetarian! lol
But seriously, I commend and support your decision because my husband and I basically hold this way. He is more strict about it, than I. He only eats chicken and only on shabbos or yom tov.
I was a vegetarian for over 7 years, and at times a vegan and macro biotic nut. I was happy when I started eating fish again though. It helped me mentally and emotionally.July 25, 2011 3:38 am at 3:38 am #790161WolfishMusingsParticipant
What have I given up to be frum?
Nothing I could not have lived without and certainly nothing of the value that I gained from leading a frum lifestyle.
The WolfJuly 25, 2011 4:00 am at 4:00 am #790162mommamia22Participant
Feeling pretty. I was told for years that I have such amazing hair; hairdressers could not believe I cover it with a wig. No matter how beautiful or expensive a wig is, it just does not compare with being able to walk around with your own hair uncovered. Tznius also makes me feel like I just can’t let loose. I always have to be aware of how I sit, walk, talk, etc.July 25, 2011 9:46 am at 9:46 am #790163Tzvi HirshMember
A seculasr Jew once asked a religious person “what would be the very last thing you would give up about Judaism if you had to” (G-d forgive).
The person answered without thinking twice: Shabbos. The secular Jew was shocked to hear this and when asked why he was so shocked answered: Shabbos is the first reason why I don’t think I can be religious. To make a long story short- that person started to become religious after hearing the answer to their question.July 25, 2011 11:42 am at 11:42 am #790164
I find myself agreeing with you often.
It wasn’t that long ago when I expressed my views on learning in kollel and the only one who agreed with me was Joseph.
And what’s this business of not riding in the front seat?
I disagree. If these are the hanhagos of her community, she is obligated to follow them altz al tifrosh. Its not on any one person to determine whether to accept or reject the hanhagos of their community.
I am a spiritual extremist by choice.
In a healthy framework, I don’t think there is such a thing as spiritual extremism. “Ultra-orthodoxy” is only in relation to the other streams of Judaism. But 300 years ago there were only two types of Jews, frum and secular. The frum Jews of yesteryear were not “ultra-orthodox”, they were frum. Yet by today’s standards they would be called Chareidi. You are not more frum than them and considering yeridos hadoros, probably less.
Feeling alone is only a result of being depressed. Speak to your husband/Rov about ways you might be able to get sipuk in ways that are acceptable to your communities Rov. Maybe there are things that you can do in the privacy of your home. Two of my Rebbeim’s (s’?) wives from Yeshivah created art- one painted and the other made crafts- in the privacy of their homes, for their private use.
I admit it is not on the Jewish calling card per se, but I finally realize through some reading of other vegitarians that it is a higher way of ethics and I have also deemed it to be the only way that you can truly not eat the blood of another animal.
Personally, I don’t think vegetarianism is compatible with Judaism. Following an additional “ism” in addition to Judaism, suggests to me that there is a deficiency in Judaism that needs to be filled. I don’t believe that is true. Similarly, I don’t believe that there can be a higher standard of ethics beyond what our Rabbis have outlined for us. Neither is there any halachic or spiritual problem with eating blood in meat that was kashered according to halachic standards.
Sorry for my megilahs lately.July 25, 2011 1:15 pm at 1:15 pm #790166
Correction to the previous comment: Rabbi Shear Yashuv Cohen is currently Chief Rabbi of Haifa, not Chief Rabbi of Israel. I regret the error.July 25, 2011 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #790167zahavasdadParticipant
I am not and refuse to be a vegatarian, however when it comes to treatment of animals there is a difference nowadays.
Jews do NOT usually raise animals anymore. Most animals are raised by goyim or chicken farms, The animals are then brought to auction where they are bought by meat packers including kosher packers.
They are then schected and processed according to kashurth.
However from the time are born until the time they are sold, Many times they are mistreated. Chicken Coops are overcrowded and hens peck at each other. Bovine(Cattle) are feed bovine parts when Bovines are herbavores (They eat plants) thats how Mad Cow disease got spread.
In previous generations Jews generally bred and raised their own animals
(I am only referring to the United States, I am not sure what is done in Israel)July 25, 2011 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #790168
“Personally, I don’t think vegetarianism is compatible with Judaism. Following an additional “ism” in addition to Judaism, suggests to me that there is a deficiency in Judaism that needs to be filled.”
I could not agree more. Serving Hashem must be the one and only point of our lives, not just another item on a long list of values.July 25, 2011 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #790169YW Moderator-80Member
i have been told it is worse than just another ism,
if one holds by vegetarianism out of “moral” principles and that killing animals for food is “wrong” this is apikorsis gemuraJuly 25, 2011 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #790170YW Moderator-80Member
vegetarianism for health reasons, or a sensitivity in that it bothers you to eat animal flesh (while not holding it to be “wrong”) is a differnt story and i dont think there is any problem with this. as long as it doesnt become an ism, a foundation of your beliefs.July 25, 2011 8:58 pm at 8:58 pm #790171
Think whaat you will, but anti-Torah “ideals” will not be posted here.July 26, 2011 2:48 am at 2:48 am #790172
“if one holds by vegetarianism out of “moral” principles and that killing animals for food is “wrong” this is apikorsis gemura.”
Wow, I never heard that. Do you know who holds this?
“Think whaat you will, but anti-Torah “ideals” will not be posted here.”
Thank you.July 26, 2011 2:50 am at 2:50 am #790173popa_bar_abbaParticipant
if one holds by vegetarianism out of “moral” principles and that killing animals for food is “wrong” this is apikorsis gemura.
Suppose you don’t think it is wrong, but it just disturbs you personally? Is that ok?
For example, I think stoning people who are mechalel shabbos is correct, but I don’t know if I would be able to throw the stone in his face and break his eye socket and burst his eyeball. (Was that too graphic?)July 26, 2011 2:57 am at 2:57 am #790175
Judaism is not vegitarianism. But that said, keeping a slaughter free diet is not against our way of life. In fact, I argue that it is a higher priority in that you are not consuming any blood at all. And we are told not to eat blood in the Tanakh. I dont see how this is anti-Torah at any length.July 26, 2011 2:59 am at 2:59 am #790176
Suppose you don’t think it is wrong, but it just disturbs you personally?
What could possibly be disturbing about biting into a nice, inch thick, juicy steak, in maybe a nice red wine and rosemary reduction, grilled to medium rare perfection…
Excuse me a minute.July 26, 2011 3:03 am at 3:03 am #790177CheinMember
Don’t worry popa_bar_abba. If it is too difficult for you to carry out the stoning of the mechallel Shabbos, I’ll cover for you.July 26, 2011 3:07 am at 3:07 am #790178
May you who are so stringent be dealt with by a stingent judge in the future.
…I dont see how this is anti-Torah at any length.
Can you see how cursing people might be anti-Torah?
But that said, keeping a slaughter free diet is not against our way of life.
And HaShem says:
“…you may slaughter of your cattle and of your sheep, …and you may eat in your cities, according to every desire of your soul.” Devarim 12:21
Also, could kohanim during the time of the Beis Hamikdash keep a slaughter-free diet?
In fact, I argue that it is a higher priority in that you are not consuming any blood at all. And we are told not to eat blood in the Tanakh.
After an animal has been kashered correctly, there is no problem with eating any blood that might remain. We are even allowed to eat liver. Not eating meat for this reason would be like taking an entire palm tree on sukkos for a lulav.July 26, 2011 3:11 am at 3:11 am #790180
The only time that I think we are Commanded to eat from an Animal in Judaism is in the service of the Temple and the sacrifices, and in that case it is mainly for the preists.
I am not aware of any commandment that requires me to have chicken, lamb, veal or any other slaughtered meats. Just curius, perhaps you can instruct me otherwise.
I will say this however, I am not sure how I will get through passover as I do feel an obligation to have my mothers chicken matzos ball soup. That said, perhaps I will have matzos balls in a vegitable broth or maybe I will not keep a full true vegitarian diet. It was never my goal in life prior to recently and I make this obligation now becuase I see true health benefits (less colon cancer and diverticular disease) as well as some possible personal benefits which may have some real value to me as a Jew.July 26, 2011 3:13 am at 3:13 am #790181
“Suppose you don’t think it is wrong, but it just disturbs you personally? Is that ok?”
I don’t know if it’s OK, but the main issue of “I decide what’s right not the Torah” (ch”v) is certainly absent.
“In fact, I argue that it is a higher priority in that you are not consuming any blood at all. And we are told not to eat blood in the Tanakh.”
I’m sorry, but that is ridiculous. Eating meat is clearly not a problem of eating blood.
“I dont see how this is anti-Torah at any length.”
Well, let me try to explain it. (Although first I have to point out that this is the kind of thing you will not understand if you have already decided in advance that it doesn’t make sense.)
To say that there is any valid set of so-called “morals” that do not come from the Torah is to deny Hashem’s Torah is the one and only guide for how humanity should behave. It is robbing the Torah of it’s true Divine standing by equating it with today’s “in” values, thought up by mortal (and often deluded) flesh and blood. We must let only the Divine Torah guide our lives.
Also, to say that there are morals besides what is said in the Torah is saying that the Torah is ch”v missing some morals. In other words, it would be saying that the Torah is ch”v not perfect. To say that Hashem’s Torah is missing things, and is anything less than perfect, can very well be heretical.July 26, 2011 3:15 am at 3:15 am #790182
I’m not sure what happened to my earlier comment in which I listed four prominent vegetarian rabbis:
Rabbi David Cohen “HaNazir” z’tz’l
Rabbi Shear Yashuv Cohen, currently Chief Rabbi of Haifa (and son of Rabbi David Cohen “HaNazir”)
Rabbi Shlomo Goren z’tz’l, late Chief Rabbi of the IDF and later of Israel (and son-in-law of Rabbi David Cohen “HaNazir”)
Rabbi Baron Jonathan Sacks, currently Chief Rabbi of the UK
two others I could have mentioned:
Rabbi Chaim Zundel Maccoby z’tz’l, the Kamenitzer Maggid
Rabbi David Rosen, former Chief Rabbi of Ireland
I suspect that all would agree with what Mod-80 wrote. In any case, there is no chiyuv to eat meat today when we don’t have a temple.July 26, 2011 3:25 am at 3:25 am #790183
Probably the biggest recent advocate of not eating meat would be Rav Kook z’tz’l who wrote that the permission to eat meat after Noach to be a concession to human frailty. The position is reminiscent of Rambam’s famous position on korbanot. It reminds me of the end of Mesilat Yesharim: Not everyone can reach the highest levels. But all can observe the halachah and the halachah clearly permits us to eat meat that is properly slaughtered. (And indeed we are now learning hilchot shechita in the Daf Yomi, in chapter 2 of Chullin. My daf yomi shiur had a special guest on Sunday — a rabbinical student who is finishing his training as a shochet. He gave a demonstration of the care and use of a shechita knife.)
And that leads to another important point. Rabbi Dr. Abraham Twerski has written that in our times it is no longer sufficient to be “Shulchan Aruch Jews” that simply observe the halachah. Instead we need to go to another level and become “Mesilat Yesharim Jews”. I presume that he means that in the past simply observing the halachah was enough but that in our times the condition of the world is such that we need to go further.July 26, 2011 3:31 am at 3:31 am #790184
One of the most important followers of the derech of Rav Kook z’tz’l today is Rabbi Shlomo Aviner. He writes:
“Some vegetarians explain that they do not eat meat in order to be compassionate to animals. That is certainly important, but we first need to master compassion towards human beings, which we have not yet done. After we finish being merciful and righteous to human beings, we will move on to animals. We cannot skip stages. We are not criticizing those who are vegetarians. If a person wants to be a vegetarian, he may do so, but it is impossible to define it as a mitzvah or even as a stringency. “
He also notes that despite the favorable opinion of Rav Kook towards vegetarianism, neither Rav Kook nor his son Rabbi Tzvi Yehuda Kook actually became vegetarians. Rav Kook also wrote that a talmid chacham should learn how to properly shecht animals.July 26, 2011 3:32 am at 3:32 am #790185yid4lifeMember
Gave up english music, movies, tv, pants, short sleeves, magazines, friendships and more. I wish i could give more up for tznius, and I try- but it is soo hard! I dress tzniusly but I am very outgoing and friendly and I just feel not myself if I stay quiet in the corner. thats not me! any advice?!? how could i be tznius and outgoing at the same time?!July 26, 2011 3:52 am at 3:52 am #790186popa_bar_abbaParticipant
“Suppose you don’t think it is wrong, but it just disturbs you personally? Is that ok?”
I don’t know if it’s OK, but the main issue of “I decide what’s right not the Torah” (ch”v) is certainly absent.
Allow me to clarify. I am saying that it personally disgusts someone to eat meat, because they feel bad for the poor animal. Of course they are aware intellectually that it is proper, but emotionally it just bothers them. So they agree the torah decides what is right, they feel that way. And maybe they are working on it. But meanwhile it is their real feelings.
Much like my example with someone who believes sekila is proper, but cannot bring himself to do it himself.
But allow me to ask this; Imagine three people:
1. This person does not have any compassionate feelings for animals, so he gleefully slits their throats and eats them up.
2. This person feels compassion for animals, but also feels and appreciates that animals were created to serve man, so respectfully slits their throats and eats them up.
3. This person feels compassion for animals, but also realizes intellectually that they are created to serve man. But he cannot feel it. So he is working on it.
Meanwhile, would you advise him to slit their throats and eat them? I don’t know. Because maybe if he does he will be like the first guy.July 26, 2011 3:53 am at 3:53 am #790188
how could i be tznius and outgoing at the same time?!
Why is there a contradiction between tzniyus and being outgoing? As long as you are only talking to members of your gender, than you can channel your outgoing personality into making the people around you feel good. That is a big chesed. I don’t see the problem at all.July 26, 2011 1:49 pm at 1:49 pm #790189
“you may slaughter of your cattle and of your sheep, …and you may eat in your cities, according to every desire of your soul”
And a shochet makes a blessing before slaughtering an animal.
“Also, could kohanim during the time of the Beis Hamikdash keep a slaughter-free diet?”
I could imagine that an individual kohein might be able to pass on the meat, and only eat the minchah offerings, but SOME kohanim had to eat the chatat and asham offerings. To offer a korban with the intent that it not be eaten within the prescribed time is a very serious sin.
“I am not aware of any commandment that requires me to have chicken, lamb, veal or any other slaughtered meats. Just curius, perhaps you can instruct me otherwise.”
I am also not aware of any that are in effect in our times. At least for chickens and veal there are serious questions as to whether the typical treatment of those birds and animals is in accordance with halachah and in the case of veal, there are sources that indicate that the veal might actually become prohibited for consumption or even for benefit. CYLOR.July 26, 2011 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #790190Dr. PepperParticipant
I’d love to tie my right shoe first, other than that I can’t think of anything.
On a more serious note, when it comes to many gashmiyus items I look around sometimes and think that it I wasn’t frum I’d be a slave to my yetzer hora and have no freedom. Shabbos may be difficult at times (when the alarm clock goes off at 6:00 A.M. or if the AC gets unplugged) but I wouldn’t give it up for anything.
There is something that I did give up though. We were offered a discount somewhere by a manager on the condition that we pay in cash. It sounded fishy to me so I asked my R”Y first. He said it wasn’t illegal since it would have been reported as paid in cash (and if we are given a receipt he can’t hide the transaction) but it’s still ossur since it’s stealing from all the shareholders.
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