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Am continuously amazed at the amount of black and white thinking I repeatedly read , from philosopher , pure yiddishkeit and more …
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because bibi has an agenda to protect his own position , does that per force mean that he instigates problems with the arabs out of thin air ?
bibi’s agenda to protect his own position is not stronger nor weaker than any other average politician on the globe
because I disagree with the zionist approach , does that mean that everything they do or do not do , is malevolent ?
because of many historical injustices [and many still exist] because of the zionists , does that mean that antisemites’ sewage becomes drinkable ?
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Where is healthy thinking disappeared to ?
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.If your only informtion about the holocausts and zionists are the same 3 sources that satmar cooks up , a crazy guy like Ben Hecht or R michoel ber zl whose who himself was fooled by the nazis yms and sadly never recovered from that, then I rest my case. Of course you are baised and everything is the evil zionist fault. We don’t even admit that some chashuva frum jews were even worse than Kastner. Its sad how judiasm became a cult. Then we should give cwredince to your belif that Oct 7 was cooked up by evil zionists
Philosopher, Pure Yiddishkeit, and Chaim87 – Everyone writes their own history after the fact, especially when facing trial and possible consequences for their actions. So I would take anything Kastner and Verba said with enough salt to kasher a pig, but I wouldn’t throw ALL the blame on Kastner either. The official Satmar account of the Kastner episode in ?????? ?? ????? is actually more nuanced. The worst offenders were actually creatures like Yitzchok Greenbaum of ‘Mapam’ who openly said “one cow in Palestine is worth more than all the old Rabbis in Europe” ????. There WERE in fact real opportunities to save Jews, especially in Hungary when the Nazis were already desperate, mostly through the efforts of Frum [and Revisionist Zionist] people, but the Labor Zionists and American Reform, who held the purse strings, refused to do almost anything.
But, as Yankel Berel has correctly pointed out, none of this has anything whatsoever to do with the current war.
philosopher: turns out you were wrong about Iran not trying to produce a bomb. Almost half of Iran’s uranium enriched to up to 60% purity, a short step from weapons-grade, was stored in a tunnel complex at Isfahan and is probably still there, U.N. nuclear watchdog chief Rafael Grossi said on Monday.
“What we believe is that Isfahan had until our last inspection a bit more than 200 kg, maybe a little bit more than that, of 60% uranium,” IAEA chief Rafael Grossi told reporters in Paris.
He said the stock was “mainly” at Isfahan, and some held elsewhere may have been destroyed.
“The widespread assumption is that the material is still there. So we haven’t seen – and not only us, I think in general all those observing the facility through satellite imagery and other means to see what’s going on there – movement indicating that the material could have been transferred,” Grossi said.
“There is an amount (of 60% uranium) in Natanz also, which we believe is still there,” Grossi said.
The IAEA estimates that when Israel launched its first attacks in June, Iran had 440.9 kg of 60% uranium. If enriched further, that would provide the explosive needed for 10 nuclear weapons, according to an IAEA yardstick.
phil> it is an all-out war over “maybe and probably ” that is what I am against.
current technology is such that waiting for someone to obtain dangerous technology and to get a 100% proof of that may be too late.
it is enough if someone shows bad intent to act.
See example of Avraham – when Avimelech starts conversation with “who is this woman”, Avraham immediately activates his defensive psyops. He did not wait until Avimelech kills him and takes his wife.
The truth is that this is the war that was prophesized 1000’s of years ago. If could have happened in a million different ways, but didn’t. That is a fact. Now to make of it the best possible situation by elevating the remaining nitzotzot.
@Yaakov Yosef A
I won’t deny that some Mapai guys were evil We know Ben Gurion shot at Begin boat while Began refused to shoot back bec we don’t shoot at other jews. But two things
1) Even the evil Mapai guys shot or killed those that threatened them. I don’t believe that they openly disrupted rescue missions that were just to save jews.
2) Not everyone was on the same page. the zionists in Europe were out to save jews for sure.Verba is the most accurate report and spot ona ccount. he escaped form Auwchwitz, and saw the ins and outs
Furthermore, that satmar book you point to is full of lies and has been proven to be made up The fact that you believe we could have saved jews and that the Nazis were desperate at the end just shows you follish this theory is. You seem to think that their hate for jews was secondary. This is the most misconstrued thought out there. Everyone know there #1 goal was to kill as many jews as possible. Nothing else came clsoe to second. Their whole fixation on Hungary despite being at the end was that. Hilter YMS made heads roll when her heard about that one train. He fired his chief. You really think, that he would have saved 100’s of thousands? Ecihman YMS showed no remorse even when captured. Now its true that here and either a big individual nazis could have been bought off to save his life. Thats what Kurt Becher did and that was thanks to kastner. Thats no small feat. But to thhink that large scale jews could have been saved? No way
These kind of repeat falsehood is because you never looked outside Satmar for the truth. Research all this. Don’t believe everything Satmar says
@Always_Ask_Questions
Good point, recently on 60 minutes was a concern that AI will enable people to produce weapons of mass destruction alot quickerChaim87 said:
1) “Even the evil Mapai guys shot or killed those that threatened them”
Who threatened to KILL them or who threatened their hold on power? Minor difference. [BTW, Mapam and Mapai were two different parties. Mapam was an ultra-Left, fanatically secular, communist-leaning party connected mainly to the Kibbutz movement. The choice of a Mapam guy as the head of the “Hatzalah” department speaks volumes about the intentions of the Zionists.]
2) “Not everyone was on the same page. the zionists in Europe were out to save jews for sure.”
Don’t be so sure. There were individuals among them both in Europe and in ‘Palestine’ (as it was called then) who did want to save Jews no matter what, (mostly from the Revisionist movement who the Labor Zionists despised, sidelined, and sometimes murdered), but the policy as a movement and most of the Zionists as individuals were only interested in bringing Jews to ‘Palestine’, even post ’39 when immigration was highly restricted. Zionism was never about “saving Jews”. It was about building a secular Jewish identity grounded in a state, like “French are to France”. Saving Jews was just a ???? ???? to achieve a Jewish majority in Israel, something that only was achieved in the 50s.
Please do not turn this into YET ANOTHER thread about Zionism and the Holocaust, something totally irrelevant to the opening subject.
@Yaakov Yosef A
Alot of what you say is a myth. You have no proof other than what we charedim were feed as little kids. Zionist are evil bla bla. Yes there are bad players. Yes Zionism was about Israel and not saving jews. But they were jews to and once they saw the gravity they also wanted to save jews like evryone else. This is the overwhelming proof. Please don’t just rinse and repeat what Ben hecht and other baised people say. Search for the truth.Why do i bring this up as a thread here? Here is the key point. the same way many peddle lies and wacky conspiracy theories about zionsim that are all not true. Its that same altitude as it pertains to iran. Yeah zionists are liars and just out for themselves. Us frum oh we are the noble honest ones. When i see what you all say about the holocuast, i see you are all just drinkjing propaganda kool-aid. its not emes
@ YYA
“you are BOTH anti-Zionist and in favor of “transfer” of “Palestinians” and annexation of Gaza? Like, Satmar and Kahane ???? ?????”
Not sure why you see a contradiction here. One can agree with R’ Meir Kahane’s point of view on proactive Jewish self defense on one hand and also agree with the Satmar Rav’s point of view on Zionist corruption. She did not claim to subscribe to ALL the positions of either Rav. So, what’s shver?
@ Chaim87
“Please don’t just rinse and repeat what Ben hecht and other baised people say”
How do you know that Ben Hecht was biased?
@ Philosopher
Regardless of Netanyahu’s personal character and motivations, I’m certain that Rabbi Meir Kahane Z”L would have been in favor of the Iran and Lebanon strikes.
Chaim87 – “But they were jews to and once they saw the gravity they also wanted to save jews like evryone else. This is the overwhelming proof.”
That isn’t any sort of proof, just an emotional statement without bringing any support.
“Yes Zionism was about Israel and not saving jews.”
OK, so we agree on that. If so, then what is the ????? of being a Zionist vis-a-vis saving Jews? Bring me any concrete evidence that Zionists did anything to save Jews during the Holocaust if their destination wasn’t British Palestine.
“Yeah zionists are liars and just out for themselves. Us frum oh we are the noble honest ones.”
Compared to them we are ?????? ??????. We aren’t ???? ???, or ?????? ????????, we don’t kill our political opponents or persecute them with ‘lawfare’, we do Mitzvos and avoid Aveiros. Are there things we need to do better? Of course. But to compare any Frum Jew with a regular non-observant Jew, let alone the political leaders of Israel then and now, is a total non-starter.
I don’t have time to hock a chainik on another pointless debate about Zionism or the Holocaust. You haven’t cited any sources or shed any light, all you did was to mock and belittle those who you disagree with, while doing exactly what you accuse them of doing. I’m not sure what your problem is with Ben Hecht, who was not Chareidi or Frum. The reality is that this debate goes all the way back to the time when the events occurred, so that says ?????… The leaders of the young State went to great lengths to silence any accusations of the sort Ben Hecht made, including banning his book, and several mysterious deaths, so that also says ?????…
That being said, I agree with Yankel Berel (and not with ‘philosopher’) that none of this is relevant to the current situation with Iran.
EVERYONE GO TO BED!
I understand YYA that he doesn’t want to go circles into debating Zionism, but this thread shows that people base their (sometimes insane) positions about current events on those theories.
Yes, it is possible to separate and say – let’s not debate old issues and look at current events, and it is very reasonable. But the reality is that many people are affected by years of propaganda – on each side of every issue. And when yo are dealing with decisions of life and death, it might lead someone, H’V, to very serious aveiros. This is also true about events in 1920s-40s when so many followed their group ideologies.
So you very well sidestepped the historical proof I provided, and instead used the typical zionist strategy of claiming no proof as proof to your own argument, very clever hhmm.
1. So you choose to believe a self hating Jew who curried favour with nazi’s, worked with and for them, and his testimony of someone else, but you won’t trust the person themselves, a G-D fearing holy man of your own admission, claiming him to be doped by the nazi’s… Oh sorry your zionist idol of kastner can’t be bashed, it hurts the [zionist] cause….
2. Without kastner they would have never have gotten to that point?? So that is why Rav Weissmandl managed to save many others, was ready and about to save all Hungarian Jewry, this train part of it all, only to be sabotaged by kastner (also well documented and proven), but when kastner does sabotage it, suddenly he’s the saviour, Rav Weissmandl the naive one, kastner the nebach for trying to pay up but couldn’t (I wonder why, I thought Rav Weissmandl was the one doped, so surely kastner had a method up his sleeve), but then you yourself admit Shternbuch paid for it in the end, so clearly they weren’t that fooled and naïve, cause they pulled it off in the end… AN you go saying I am convinced by Satmar propaganda…..
3. They never even planned on listening to Brand, and so what? You would rather lock someone up and not let them try, oh so you would say they had a better idea of what to do, so let me tell you what that idea is: Refuse countless efforts to open a comittee to save Jews up until 1942, at which point they allocated $250 for this, and bare in mind, as well-most of the years of the war, all zionists newspapers in Palestine never once mentioned what was going on in the concentration camps and all, go check them.
4. Eichmann played games with religious Jews who actually saved and tried to save others, but not kastner, who many a time openly flaunted his hate for them, choosing and saying that he’d rather send back them to the gas chambers, as this would kill two birds with one stone, 1, send people who would not benefit the state of israel back to their deaths, and use their blood to get sympathy for the state-rak bedam tiyeh lanu ha’aretz….
5. None of the info I quote came from any Satmar or like origins, I already listed some of the sources, one of which is Rabbi Dr. Griffels book Dateline:Istanbul, a book printed by Artscroll, not very Satmar sorry to say. And by the way, he was an emissary from Aguda to the joint to try and help save Jewry in the holocaust, which he eventually left and went on his own, side-lining them and teeming up with others that actually wanted to save Jews, and Baruch Hashem managed to.
6. I grew up on these zionist myths (not my parents davka, but my surroundings and schools, yeshivot etc), they were the accepted “facts”, my upbringing was in no way satmar, and my first proper encounter with Satmar only came after my marriage so that says it all. I just so happened to be someone who loves reading, and brought up by my parents to not just sheep-follow-sheep believe everything and work things out for myself, which I did. The actual thing that sparked my interest and research into zionism and everything surrounding it was the constant need for zionists to defend themselves, and almost never being able to logically argue their point, alwys falling back on emotional arguments like “do you seriously want another holocaust (ch”v)?”, or it is the “only” safe place Jews can be jews (yeh sure thats another discussion) etc etc, at which point I was intrigued and delved in, findin a lot unfortunately, popping the bubble I always that as sacred and untouchable.
7. Mate, I am not about to go listening to zionist pr propaganda/hasbara leaning podcasts that serve sorely the purpose of rewriting history, I’d much rather delve into the history itself, sorry mate, you very well can search up the records of when the first “acts” of “attempting” to save jews was done by kastner, the joint and all the ym”sh crooks there, you will find no records pre late 1941, when it was later in 1942 that as I said above it was created…
You proved my point in your comments, not being able to back up your outlandish claims with clearcut history/proof, instead banging on about Satmar kool aid, grow up mate!
8. And the deceptions go on: So Rav Weissmandl mad a mistake, thinking he could bargain with the nazi’s, which actually worked besides for when the zionist “saviour” meddled into it, but kastner didn’t make that mistake, especially when eventually not paying up, nearly causing the death of another 1k+? He very well had access to the funds so don’t try selling white lies to me.
9. He didn’t want to submit the papers…. What utter nonsense…
10.
@yankal berel, you just prove my point above, instead of stating stupid personal comments that have no relevance to the point at hand, try and actually prove me wrong…
And calling someone’s murder a negligent act is rather inappropriate, unless you want to explain a bit better what you meant.
And when I bought various but not all instances of zionist bad acts in history, I did not say that b.n. did the same, rather, that given the historical time-and-again proven track record of what the zionists get up to, engage in, and what their method of conduct is, it would not surprise me at all to eventually see it proven that October 7th wasn’t merely hamas terrorists acting on their own, given the immense failure one on top of the other, that all points to something impossible to describe as a coincidence.
But, once again, I’ll say it:
A conspiracy theory is not the stating of facts and questioning what behind the facts. A conspiracy theory is to take those facts, the suspicions and build a so called “clear” picture of what went on.
Nowhere will you find that in my words, all I said was, that the finger points towards something like that, as it is way too suspicious given all the above.DO we know EXACTLY what happened? No.
Does that detract from the suspicions and question? also not.
Is something bigger at play? I’d say likely suspiciously so, but not provable, and probably not for a while…@Yaakov Yosef A
I meant to say “there” is overwhelming proof and not this is. Do your research and don’t believe satmar lies. Katsner at all meetings said he wants to save all jews. Till he realized he can’t save all jews in May of 44 that was his goal stated over and over again. This is all well documented,. And this was what the whole underground wanted.Now since you want sources here goes. Stop it with the lies that zionists art evil. of course you don’t want to debatte this. Because you want to believe the kool aid you drink as premise for this forum. I am here to tell you it all lies. research all the attached below. its overhwlmeing
Historians who argue Zionist rescuers tried to save Jews broadly:
Yehuda Bauer – Negotiations and rescue efforts aimed to save as many Jews as possible.
Randolph L. Braham – Documents the Rescue Committee’s efforts to help Hungarian Jews generally.
Dina Porat – Zionist leadership tried to rescue Jews but had very limited power.
Tuvia Friling – Shows Zionist leaders pursued multiple rescue attempts.
Shlomo Aronson / Shabtai Teveth – Argue claims that they only cared about Zionists are exaggerated.\The Budapest Aid and Rescue Committee (Va’adat Ezrah Vehatzalah) left records showing they tried to: negotiate with the Nazis to stop deportations of Hungarian Jews, raise money for plans like the “Europe Plan” to save large numbers of Jews, smuggle Jewish refugees into Hungary
Members of the committee negotiated with Nazis for plans involving hundreds of thousands or even a million Jews (such as the “blood for trucks” proposal).
These negotiations are documented in:
Nazi records-German Federal Archives (Bundesarchiv) &Nuremberg trial records
testimonies after the war
diplomatic archivesAnother major archive. United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
@Yaakov Yosef A
Now just to cut you a bit of slack, Ill say this, Of course many Zionists believed that if they can only save 500 jews, save zionists. But,
1) Their goal always was to save as many jews as possible, frum or not frum zionsits or not zionists. (Yes if its limited then some said save zionsits)
2) Only some held that way not all.
3) That was more in 1938 and not 1944. By then everyone held save all jews.
Yes I am not here to defend and say all zionists are good people. There was a minoirty and only a minority killed those that got in their way. But these wacky ideas that they wanted many jews dead so they can promote themselves. or that the killers were a majorty is blaloney.Bottom line, yes you don’t want to debate this. the truth hurts. if you learn that the zionists did MORE to save jews than many frum jews it would debunk your whole premise of this forum. (Of course i don’t put R michel Ber or Mrs strenbauch on the same pedistal as Katsner. But compared to many other “rosh kauhls” he was a saint)
I am sure at some point there were Zionists who were focused on “their agenda”. This happens in any organized movement and it is not good.
But original idea came to Hertzl when he got disappointed with the path of assimilation seeing that even assimilated Jews were not accepted, so Zionism was a means to saving Jews as a separate entity instead.There is nothing wrong with this idea at the time when things were getting worse for Jews in Europe, and it is something to be explained – how is a naive journalist from Vienna can see whether things are going better than so many learned people.
Chaim87 – “Yes I am not here to defend and say all zionists are good people. There was a minority and only a minority killed those that got in their way.”
In the Mafia only a ‘minority’ of the made men actually do the killing… But the fact that killing is an option by them makes the whole gesheft a mafia. Ben Tzvi and Sharett were directly involved in organizing the DeHaan murder, and Rabin ordered his soldiers to fire on the Altalena upon the command from BG. This doesn’t even begin to adress the issue of ???? ??????? ???? ???????.
Who says your sources are better than my sources? You honored professors and historians have their own agenda to promote, no less than their opponents do…
Yankel Berel is correct about SomeJewIKnow.
@Yaakov Yosef A
First its a ton of historians across different spectrums. Second if you reseach you’ll see alot of the information is from first hand testimony. All of a sudden the whole world is lying and only satmar who is known to be baised is saying the truth? Believe what you want but the point is that you come with this pre notion that zioniists must be evil because you were told lies ever since we were kidsThis is pairing a very broad brush….theres s lot of “zionists” that aren’t part of the government. It’s like saying the government who sent everyone to murder the entire iraqi region makes everyone in America evil. Is that really true?
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