What's the argument against having a Madina?

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  • #852630

    Sam2
    Participant

    YMB: Your logic is flawed. More Jews are killed or get in trouble in Israel than anywhere else because there are more Jews there than anywhere else. The Rubashkin, Madoff, etc. stories all increased anti-Semitism, and they had nothing to do with Jews from Israel causing problems.

    #852631

    ymb: “Take into Account that since israel was founded many many More yidden have been killed there than in the whole world combined…”

    source, please.

    #852632

    More Jews are killed and injured in Israel for being Jewish than Jews in the rest of the world combined. Whether you look at it proportionately or hard numbers.

    #852633

    Avi K
    Participant

    Ymb, the three shevuot are null and void (if they ever were obligatory – they are not paskened in any of the halachic codes) for the following reasons:

    1. The Goyim were over several times on their part of the bargain not to persecute us too much (Crusades, Gezerot Tach veTat, pogroms, Holocaust).

    2. They agreed to establish a Jewish state at the San Remo Conference so it is not rebellion against them (Rav Meir Simcha).

    3. The dod has knocked.

    #852634

    Health
    Participant

    Sam2 -Naarish! When’s the last time a Jew was blown up or killed by a terrorist in the US?

    #852635

    Sam2
    Participant

    Health: I’d guess 9/11. And more Jews died on that day than in a year of terrorism in Israel. And Jews are murder victims in this and other countries just like anyone else can be.

    #852636

    longarekel
    Member

    Avi K: The three shvuos might not be Halachic but they are a reality. If we (or the goyim) are ‘over’ on the shvua there will be consequences. 1) Who said one shvua is talui in another shvua? 2) Who exactly agreed to a jewish state? The Arab countries surrounding Israel never agreed. It could be argued that since the British who were the rulers of Eretz Yisrael at the time, agreed to give their country to the jews, they were not oleh bachoma. However, they only ‘agreed’ because of zionist diplomatic pressure, and terrorist activity by etzel and lechi and others. So that would definitely be oleh bachoma. (Interesting that israel was founded on terrorism and now they are being terrorized. The shvua is reality.)

    #852637

    Sam2: 9/11 didn’t happen before or since 9/11. Nor did it specifically target Jews. In Israel, Jewish-targeted terrorism killing and maiming Jews has been a constant theme for the 60+ years of the medina. Plus in Israel, unlike Jews elsewhere, live through a constant state of wars that continues to cause the loss of Jewish lives.

    #852638

    Sam2
    Participant

    YD: And Jews didn’t live through Jewish-targeted terrorism (pogroms) throughout our history in Europe?

    #852639

    Sam2: That’s irrelevant. The Zionists didn’t stop any pograms in Europe. They cause pograms in Eretz Yisroel (and around the world.)

    #852640

    longarekel
    Member

    Sam2: I think the point they’re making is that since the establishment of the state, jews have been killed or wounded in israel because they were jews, more than in any other place in the world.

    #852641

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    In their “wisdom”, the moderators routinely omit to print my contributions. So be it- but I have to be “moiche” (in the language of some of the posters) on this “alilas dam” (for the unitiated, it means blood libel) at what some posters routinely decry the fact that more jews have been killed in Eretz Yisroel than elsewhere in the world. Conveniently, they start the clock after the medinah was founded- conveniently omitting the Holocaust, the Russian pogroms under the czars and the Communists, the many persecutions in all countries-including the Arab nations, for centuries.

    It is fatuous to look at the Jewish position in the West now- this is only for the past few decades- before that, jews were killed and persecuted all the time. And if you think it cannot happen here, look at Argentina and venezuaela- where jews are being persecuted right now.

    Only by having our fate in our our hands -as we do now in Eretz Yisroel- can we, with the Almighty’s help, fight our enemies.

    #852642

    Sam2
    Participant

    Longarekel: And the point that they’re missing is that that’s mostly because there are more Jews in Israel than anywhere else.

    #852644

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Sam2: I think the point they’re making is that since the establishment of the state, jews have been killed or wounded in israel because they were jews, more than in any other place in the world.

    Selective Bias.

    #852645

    mdd
    Member

    Longarekel, the League of Nations authorized the UK to hold E. Yisroel till a Jewish state is founded. That was called the mandate.

    #852646

    mdd
    Member

    Toi, I am not saying the Medinah is great,but one has to offer good arguments about the matter. “It is misleading…”. Or that’s the problem? There are far worse things taking place there.

    #852647

    mdd
    Member

    Plus,Toi and the Gatesheader, do you support UK or France or Finland? Is everything there glatt kosher?

    Btw, diplomatic pressure is not ossur.

    #852648

    Toi
    Participant

    mdd- i have no idea in tarnation what you just said.

    #852649

    Avi K
    Participant

    Longarkel, Emir Faisal agreed to a Jewish state and even signed an agreement with Weizman. The Mufti messed up everything because of his dream of establishing a Caliphate with himself as head – and was financed by the Nazis.

    #852650

    mdd
    Member

    Toi, the frei Israeli culture has nothing to do with the Medina. If there were no Medina, it still would be there.

    If something is wrong in a country, it does not mean you have to oppose its’ existence. And again, nobody thinks that frei Israelis are the true practitioners of Judaism. Nobody is mislead.

    #852651

    Avi K
    Participant

    I invite anyone who does not understand the difference between a medina, a regime and a government to open negotiations with me as to tuition for Political Science lessons.

    #852652

    Toi
    Participant

    mdd- “And again, nobody thinks that frei Israelis are the true practitioners of Judaism. Nobody is mislead.”

    you should get out more often. and btw, the frei israeli culture is the medina. there would not be a pride parade if not for the medina. so what in tarnation are you saying.

    #852653

    longarekel and YD said everything that needs to be said.

    Now, please, everyone, let’s end this…

    #852654

    ymb
    Member

    AVI K.You Keep saying the same argument,not listening to the responses.

    part 1 has been answered many times.Why should the fact that Goyim transgressed the Shvua Have any affect on us???

    Part 2 You keep mentioning The Or Samach.Well Have a look at his sefer al hatora ,the Meshech Chochme,at the end of parshas Vayechi.He says on the possuk pakod yifkoyd:

    Hinei lamdom Ki Lo Yaalu bechomo ad KI BONOVI MHASHEM TISBORACH veyomar Pokod vchl.

    VEZE LIMUD LEDOYROS SHELO YAALU MEATZMON

    VELO KEMO SHEOSSU BENE EFRAYIM SHEHIKDIMU HAKETZ,VEGAM SHEYOYMAR HANOVI LAALOS EL ERETZ ACHERES HU NOVI SHEKER RAK SHEYOMAR SHEYAALU LOORETZ ASHER NISHBA LAAVOYSENU UKEMO SHEHOYO BEMOSHE REBEYNU.

    IN SHORT NO GOING UP BECHOMA UNTIL A NOVI SAYS YOU CAN..

    IM AFRAID NO NOVI HAS YET COME,BUT HE SHOULD COME BEKOROV.

    SO DONT MENTION R’MEIR SIMCHA…IT WILL WORK AGAINST YOU.

    #852655

    mdd
    Member

    Toi, I am a BT — I know what’s going on in the world better than all the right-wing chevrah here.

    I do not understand what your problem is. For the third time, even if the Medina were abolished and the US took over, the frei comminity would still be there. That community is not dependant on the political independance!

    #852656

    Toi
    Participant

    mdg- agreed, but you miss my point. they would still exist, but they would no longer claim to have achieved the pinnacle of what the Jew can be.

    #852657

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Toi: I’ve never heard them make that claim now.

    #852658

    Avi K
    Participant

    ymb,

    1. It’s a sevara. The three shevuot are a package deal. If they do not persecute us “too much” we will not rebel. The Maharsha alludes to this. He also says that not making aliya “like a wall” refers to making aliya by force and building walled cities like Nehemia. The Maharal says (Chiddushei Aggadot) that the three together allow the Galut to exist. Thus, if one falls they all fall.

    2. Your quote was obviously either written before the Balfour Declaration and San Remo conference or was simply a commentary on the pasuk. After these events he said that the walll had been broken down (“HaTekufa HaGedola” pg. 175 quoted in “Torat Eretz Yisrael” pg.289 footnote 28 and “HaTor” second publishing year, third edition quoted there pg. 234).

    #852659

    Health
    Participant

    Sam2 -“Health: I’d guess 9/11. And more Jews died on that day than in a year of terrorism in Israel.”

    Because of one incident -that proves Israel is a safer place for Jews to live???!?!? Wake up. Israel is a very dangerous place for Jews to live -in the here and now.

    “And Jews are murder victims in this and other countries just like anyone else can be.”

    And no Jews are ever murdered in Israel, right?!?!?

    #852660

    Health
    Participant

    rabbiofberlin -“In their “wisdom”, the moderators routinely omit to print my contributions.”

    B’H -they do their job!!!

    “So be it- but I have to be “moiche” (in the language of some of the posters) on this “alilas dam” (for the unitiated, it means blood libel) at what some posters routinely decry the fact that more jews have been killed in Eretz Yisroel than elsewhere in the world. Conveniently, they start the clock after the medinah was founded- conveniently omitting the Holocaust, the Russian pogroms under the czars and the Communists, the many persecutions in all countries-including the Arab nations, for centuries.”

    The reason why they “Conveniently start the clock after the medinah was founded”, is because you didn’t even read what the point of argument is. You are so brainwashed by your ideals that you can’t even begin to understand s/o else’s point! The point is that the Medina’s claim to existance -of that we are protecting Jews, is Not the least bit realistic right now. Maybe before ’48 -a Jewish run country would protect Jews -maybe in the possible future if Countries turn against Jews -a Jewish run country would be good, but not right now. The most likely country that Jews will be killed by terror, in the here & now -is Israel!

    So why not give Israel to the Goyim, like Turkey, with guarantees from the nations of the world that all terror will stop?!?!?

    #852662

    Health
    Participant

    Avi K -“Ymb, the three shevuot are null and void (if they ever were obligatory – they are not paskened in any of the halachic codes) for the following reasons:”

    The argument that you are always posting is only with regards to the Shevous. You have never answered my argument -How do you and others like you support a Medina based on Kefira?

    And don’t tell me come & there and vote. If all the Frum Jews in the world would come there -we still would be outnumbered and it would still be a Freye Medina!

    #852664

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    How do you and others like you support a Medina based on Kefira?

    Against my better judgement, I’ll post here:

    There are (from what I can see) three views on the state of Israel:

    1: The state should be abolished (Satmer).

    2: The state should be treated as Jewish Malchus.

    3: The state (as in the institution) should be treated no different than someone would treat any other state, such as the state of Peru.

    I believe Health’s question is how can anyone follow option 2, if there is no “Melech” annointed by a Navi and the institution does not follow the Torah?

    #852665

    Feif Un
    Participant

    I don’t think anyone follows #2. Nobody views it as Malchus. Do I look at it like Peru? No, because Peru has no kedusha to it. Israel is a holy land, and historically the land of the Jews. Do I believe we have a divine right to have it now? No, that will come with Mashiach. That doesn’t mean we can’t have it now as long as it was done properly, without fighting – which it was, through diplomacy.

    As for it being founded on kefirah, true, many of the people who founded it were not frum. So what? The fact is that Torah Judaism is flourishing there in a way it hasn’t probably since the Beis HaMikdash was destroyed. Do you honestly think that if Turkey was running it things would be better? When lands were turned over to Palestinians, with assurances that holy sites would be preserved, look what happened! Nothing was preserved. Kever Yosef was ransacked and destroyed.

    The founding is irrelevant. The state was founded, and that won’t change. Look at the positive, not the negative.

    #852666

    mdd
    Member

    Toi, I am not sure they say it. Even if they did, so what? What’s the big deal that you have to be so busy aginst the Medinah because of it? There are people there who say complete and total apikorsus, and they would not stop if the Medina were to disappear.

    #852667

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I don’t think anyone follows #2. Nobody views it as Malchus. Do I look at it like Peru? No, because Peru has no kedusha to it. Israel is a holy land, and historically the land of the Jews. Do I believe we have a divine right to have it now? No, that will come with Mashiach. That doesn’t mean we can’t have it now as long as it was done properly, without fighting – which it was, through diplomacy.

    The land? The land belongs to us, always and forever. I’m not talking about the land, I’m talking about the institution.

    Is the institution Kadosh? Lets say it was replaced in a method like the Glorious Revolution of 1688, and a new form of government came out (for arguments sake, more of a loose federal system like the Swiss, with states/cantons). Would you care, assuming rights are protected and no blood is shed? If not, you have no specific “loyalty” to the Medinah (which is what Health is currently rapping against, the institution). If yes, why?

    #852668

    Toi
    Participant

    mdd- if something you cared about, a person or idea, was copyrighted or the like, would you sit back and relax while someone took that thing and disgraced/perverted it. or not. if you cared enough, it would bother you too.

    #852670

    Avi K
    Participant

    Toi, if you really care make aliya, become a citizen and at least vote for change.

    #852671

    mdd
    Member

    Toi, there are enough serious(al pi Torah) issues to be concernd about. Your whole sevora is artificial and strange and does not compare to the real problems one needs to be upset about. Some people love to tracht up things to be kanousdik about.

    Besides, it is indeed true that there is such a thing as the Hebrew enthicity — whether the Kahoim like or not.

    #852672

    Health
    Participant

    Feif Un -“Do you honestly think that if Turkey was running it things would be better?”

    Yes, I do.

    “When lands were turned over to Palestinians, with assurances that holy sites would be preserved, look what happened! Nothing was preserved. Kever Yosef was ransacked and destroyed.”

    Another brilliant idea by the Freye Tzionim to give them Gaza and the West Bank!

    First of all, there is no such thing as a Palestinian (In reference to arabs) – they are Arabs! Why would you trust an arab? The Tzionim have been stoking their hatred for close to a hundred years now. (Around the time when Zionism was starting to expand to Palestine.)

    We better hurry up and give it to Turkey because Israel has just become their enemy too. So this doesn’t give us much time to hand it over to Turkey because soon their hatred will be as big as the arabs. So giving it to them then will just cause them to take revenge on the Jews. But right now, I feel, the hatred isn’t that strong that if we offer them the white flag -they would take the country without getting revenge on the Jews that will be under their control.

    #852673

    ymb
    Member

    ymb,

    avi k:1. It’s a sevara. The three shevuot are a package deal. If they do not persecute us “too much” we will not rebel. The Maharsha alludes to this. He also says that not making aliya “like a wall” refers to making aliya by force and building walled cities like Nehemia. The Maharal says (Chiddushei Aggadot) that the three together allow the Galut to exist. Thus, if one falls they all fall.

    In yeshivish this is called a boych sevara..the maharsha says absolutely nothing about that.he does mention nechemiah’s building which was darius’s full permission.he never rebelled against darius,and the 2nd beis hamikdash was build under his kingdom.he does not mention at all your sevara.btw the maharal which you mention says that the shvouos apply and they are even yehareg veal yaavor!!!! so dont tell me that deal is over if they persecute us..

    2. Your quote was obviously either written before the Balfour Declaration and San Remo conference or was simply a commentary on the pasuk. After these events he said that the walll had been broken down (“HaTekufa HaGedola” pg. 175 quoted in “Torat Eretz Yisrael” pg.289 footnote 28 and “HaTor” second publishing year, third edition quoted there pg. 234).

    the meshech chochma was published in 1927 that is 10 years after the balfour declaration….

    and you dont get it ,he says that the issur to go up is till a navi comes and says we must go ,if you call balfour a navi then im sorry but there must be something im missing

    #852675

    Avi K
    Participant

    Ymb,

    1. Where does the Maharal say that? That is truly amazing as only the big three are yehareg uval yaavor. In any case, in Chiddushei Agadot on the Gemara he says explicitly that all three are the kiyum of the Galut.

    2. There is much that you are missing.Obviusly Rav Meir Simcha is talking about a forcible aliya before the time like Ephraim. However, being that the other nations agreed that is a sign that it is not before the time (and certainly not by force) it is not the case so we do not need a navi.

    #852676

    mdd
    Member

    That the 3 shevuos are “yehareg ve’lo’yaavor” is a shvere Satmat ta’ana which is not muchrach at all in the divrei Maharal. Anyhow, we do not pasken from a machshova sefer.

    #852677

    Doswin
    Member

    First, The Oaths are quoted L’Halachah in numerous sources, including but not limited to: Piskei Riaz (Kesuvos 111), Responsa Rivash #110, Responsa Rashbash #2, Megilas Esther on Sefer HaMitzvos of Rambam Ramban (Maamar HaGeulah #1 regarding why all Jews outside of Bavel – the majority of Jews at the time – did not go to Eretz Yisroel at Coresh’s call), Rambam (Igeres Taimon – warning peple not to violate the Oaths or else face grave danger), Maharal (Netzach Yisroel 24) writes that even if the Goyim try to force us to take Eretz Yisroel for ourselves during Golus, we must allow ourselves to be killed rather than take violate the Oaths, as well as other places.

    Second, Rabbeinu Tam writes that you DO pasken from Agadita unless it is against Halachah.

    Third, the Oaths are NOT Agada. By definition, Halachah means when the Gemora tells you it is forbidden to do something, which this does. In fact, it says You may nto do this, and if you do, you will die. That makes it Halachah. Thats the definition of Halachah. (Similarly, the Oath of Naaseh V’Nishmah is also used by Chazal as Halachah, as in Shevuah chal al Sehvuah etc.)

    Fourth, even if it is not Halachah, it still represents the Ratzon Hashem, meaning, negation of Halachah would merely relinquish us of any obligations in regard to makign a State. But the Gemora clearly says that doign so will cause the deaths of Jews, like animals in the field. Even if that does not create any Halachic obligations, it surely tells us that the State is against the will of Hashem and that its existence causes deaths of Jews.

    The Oath that G-d gave us not to rebel against the Goyim was NOT for the sake of the Goyim, but for our OWN sake, that we dont end Golus early. It says this in every single interpretation in the commentaries about the Oath. It was not for the sake of the Goyim but for us. So just because the Goyim violated their Oath and hurt us does nto mean we can violate another one and hurt ourselves more! Shevet Efraim left Egypt in violation of the Oaths. Egypt surely violated their Oath when they tortured Jews for centuries. Yet Ephrain, Chazal say, were all hunted donw and killed in the deset for violating their Oath by leaving Egypt early.

    The Oaths are brought down l’halachah in Rishonim and Achronim as viable and very real. This, despite the fact that the Goyim have been violating their Oath for thousands of years.

    The Rambam in Igeres Taimon warns the Jews not to violate the Oaths, or else. He writes there that the Jews are suffering an evil, persecuting government that commits atrocities and wars against the Jews, and therefore the Jews should watch out not to violate the Oath by rebelling against them. It’s clear that even though the Goyim violate their Oath we cannot violate ours.

    The Medrash Aichah says clearly that the Romans violated their Oath, yet the generation of Bar Kochba was punished Chazal say because they violated the Oaths.

    The Maharal writes that even if the Goyim force us wuth torturous death to violate the Oath, we should rather submit to torturous death than violate them.

    And the Gemora itself disproves the idea, since the Gemora says that the reason Chazal commanded us not to go from Bavel to Eretz Yisroel is due to the Oaths, even though Bavel violated their Oath for sure with the atrocities they committed during the Churban (The Shulchan Aruch writes that the Brachah of Vlamalshinim was enacted to praise Hashem for destroying the evil kingdom of Bavel).

    The Gemora then asks on R. Zaira who says that the Oaths only include not taking Eretz Yisroel forcefully, but the Oath not to rebel against the nations is nto included. The Gemora could easily have answered that Bavel violated their Oath and therefore our Oath of rebelling against them is null. But the Gemora says no such thing.

    R. Avrohom Galanti (Zechus Avos) brings a story of the people of Portugal who wanted to defend themselves against the government by making a rebellion. The government then was making forced SHmad and all sorts of persecutions. They asked the “shem hameforash” and were told not to do it because it would violate the Oaths.

    And besides all this, the second Oath, nshelo yaalu b’chomah has nothing to do with the Goyim, and woud not be dependent on the Goyim’s Oath anyway. The Maharal and R. Yonason Eyebushitz write that even if the Goyim give us permission to take Eretz Yisroel we are not allowed to do it. Better we should die than take Eretz Yisroel, the Maharal says.

    What I wrote above is not rocket science. It’s pretty obvious. Takes no genius or encyclopedic knowledge to understand it. Anyone who learns about the Oaths is immediately confronted with the reality that they Goyim violate dtheirs but we still cannot violate ours.

    It’s just plain dishonesty that would make people come up with this.

    #852678

    mdd
    Member

    Doswin, most Gedolim did not hold like Satmar. Read it 10 times!

    #852679

    Doswin
    Member

    mdd: Nowhere above did I cite the Divrei Yoel. Unless you are trying to tell me that the Maharal was a Satmar Chosid. Or that the Riaz, Rivash, Rashbash, Megilas Esther, Rambam, Ramban, and the others are all Satmar Chasidim.

    You live and learn new things every day.

    #852680

    Toi
    Participant

    avi k- i liver here already. bite me. i wont become a citizen because im not interested in them trying to conscript my kids, maybe succeeding, and then reneging on all the promises they make to nachal chareidi, and making my kids listen to kol isha. and my being upset and despising zionism isnt a reason to get me to vote.

    #852681

    Avi K
    Participant

    Doswin,

    1. Where do Chazal say that is was because of the three oaths? Apparently Rabbi Akva did not hold that way. I was under the impression that it was because he said that he did not want Hashem to hinder or help him.

    2. Bavel was a special case (Rambam Hilchot Melachim 5:12 see also Yaavetz Siddur Bet Yaakov and Rav Tzvi Kalisher Derishot Tzion).The Baal HaFlaah says that the oaths only apply to Bavel.

    3. The Chafetz Chaim’s son, Rav Leib, disputed the obligatory nature of the three oaths. Rav Chaim Vital wrote that they were only for 1,000 years (Intoducttion to “Etz Chaim” – interestingly that was when the Crusades began). Ramban rules in his Sefer HaMitzvot that it is a mitzva d’Oraita in our time to conquer EY.The Gra says (Shir HaShirim 2:7 in his siddur “Likutim al Derech HaNistar) that the oath not to make aliya “like a wall” only applies to an aliya whose purpose is to rebuild the Bet HaMikdash.

    4. The Chatam Sofer says that one who paskens from aggadata makes kelayim (Responsa Orech Chaim end of Siman 51).

    5. Rabbi Shlomo Kluger (“Maaseh Yotzer” on the Haggada), Rav Hillel Kolomeia(“Rav Shalom” to Rav Shlomo Adler of Sadigora) and Rav Natan Tzvi Friedman (Responsa Netzer Matai 10:5) say that the fact that the Goyim violated their part absolves us from our part (see Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 236:6).

    6. Obviously the oaths were not forever as that would negate the idea of Mashiach. The great Zionist awakening was a sign that it is yom pekadi (Responsa Yehuot Malcho 66 and “Em HaBanim Semeicha”).

    #852682

    mdd
    Member

    Yep, Doswin you put all that shtikl together without resorting to the “Divrei Yoel”? And came out with the same conlusion? Btw, Chafets Chaim held one was allowed to rebel against the Russian Communist government. And again, most Gedolim did not hold like the Satmar. And we do not pasken shailos from asking the Shem Ha’Meforash.

    And genrally speaking, where does all this ridiculous infatuation with the Satmar shita come from? When it comes to you, Doswin, it’s not a kasha — the more right-wing, the merrier. Right?

    #852683

    Avi K
    Participant

    Toi, you are preventing them from doing a mitzvat asseh d’Oraita (Rambam Hilchot Melachim 5:1) and making them over on a lav (“al taamod al dam ra’eicha”). By refusing to vote even though you live here you are in fact voting for secularism. Thus you sin and cause the public to sin. See Rambam Hilchot Teshuva 4:1 on the severity o these aveirot.

    #852684

    Toi
    Participant

    youre being machshil the rabbim by spouting your ridiculous zionist rhetoric. bite me.

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