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Health: You probably have to redefine Zionists (or at least tell us what you think the definition is). I think the majority of Zionists left now (unless you count all contributing Israeli citizens as Zionists) are the religious Zionists. The secular Zionists got what they want. They got a national homeland for Jews. They don’t have any reason to exist anymore. Most of the people nowadays with a real love and desire for Eretz Yisrael (and who want to help with the Medinah as part of that) are the Dati Le’umi/religious Zionists.
Sam2 -“Health: You probably have to redefine Zionists (or at least tell us what you think the definition is). I think the majority of Zionists left now (unless you count all contributing Israeli citizens as Zionists) are the religious Zionists.”
That’s exactly what I’m doing -“(unless you count all contributing Israeli citizens as Zionists)” – Minhag Avosayhem Beyedayhem, even though it means nothing to them.
“The secular Zionists got what they want. They got a national homeland for Jews. They don’t have any reason to exist anymore.”
But unfortunately most are still there, even though some have emigrated to US, Canada, Britain, France, Germany, India and I think even Thailand.
“Most of the people nowadays with a real love and desire for Eretz Yisrael (and who want to help with the Medinah as part of that) are the Dati Le’umi/religious Zionists.”
So about calling your group Eretz Yisroel lovers or something like that? Calling yourself Zionists doesn’t let anyone know what type of philosophy you have – Do you agree with Zionist Kofrim or do you agree with the Torah’s philosophy. There has to be no misunderstanding that your philosophy is against Kefira and other bad Hashkofos. A good way to do this is to take a new name and not use the name of a group started by Kofrim!
Health: I think the word “religious” in the phrase “religious Zionists” shows that they do not identify with Kofrim.
Health, name-caling is a cognitive bias. You can google it.
“Sam- The only thing I will say is that not following Halachah isn’t necessarily anti-Torah.” are you bonkers?
Avi K: Was hevel verik meant as a preface to your remarks? So let me get this straight. You believe that 1)the secular israeli government runs the country according to the will of God as specified in the Torah 2)supporting a secular israeli government does not allow secularism a free hand. Very interesting.
“1)Living in Eretz Yisrael is a big mitzva. 2)Supporting an anti-God, anti-Torah government is a big aveira. 3)Living in Eretz Yisrael today supports an anti-God, anti-Torah government(directly or indirectly). Conclusion: Living in Eretz Yisrael today is a mitzva haba’ah b’aveira. If someone already lives there he might be allowed to stay since it is very difficult to uproot oneself from one’s country. All the Gedolim that Avi K. mentions supported the Yishuv of Shomrei Torah in Eretz Yisrael and they all lived prior to the founding of the state. The state of israel is Churban Eretz Yisrael not Yishuv Eretz Yisrael. Mods, please allow this through. This is a Torah disscussion and this view should be considered. Thank you very much.”
I fully agree with what you write – except for the single addition, which I assume you also agree with, that Jewish sovereignty is not allowed – and the type (secular or ‘religious) doesn’t matter.
But at the same time, I believe that a return to Ottoman times as Health would like to see is quite unlikely. There simply is no solution.
Thank you C.G. It’s nice to know someone agrees with my point of view. As far as jewish sovereignty however, it’s a bit tricky. As per the shvua not to fordefully take control of Eretz Yisrael it would seem that if the current non-jewish nation(at any given time)would give over control of the country to a jewish government, that would not be called taking Eretz Yisrael by force. Since the British government who ruled Eretz Yisrael at the time gave over control to a jewish government that would not violate the shvua. The Balfour declaration is meaningless in this regard. What matters is the opinion and consent of the ruling power over Eretz Yisrael, not the opinion or consent of any other nation. At the same time the opinion and objection of neighboring(arab) countries is also irrelevant. This is what happened in the begining of the bayis sheni when Coresh of Persia who was the ruler of Eretz Yisrael at the time, gave over control of Eretz Yisrael to the jewish nation. This is why when the greeks later threatened to take over Eretz Yisrael the jews fought back and were not compelled by means of the shvua to give the country to the greeks. The same reasoning applied later when the romans invaded. Therefore there are only two options. Either all shomrei torah leave Eretz Yisrael or the current government does teshuva, gets rid of democracy, and runs the country according to the torah. If this teshuva takes place and the country becomes a holy Eretz Yisrael, jewish sovoreignty will have every right according to the torah to exist in Eretz Yisrael. This is what may actually happen sometime in the future but until it does one should live elsewhere.
Avi K -“Health, name-caling is a cognitive bias. You can google it.”
You keep repeating the same line. I’m not going to Google anything. If you have a point post it, if not – I’m not interested to hear about name-calling over & over & over & over…
Sam2 -“Health: I think the word “religious” in the phrase “religious Zionists” shows that they do not identify with Kofrim.”
Sorry I don’t think that cuts it.
Let me give you an example -Some people want to start a group against Yoske and call it “Religious Jews for J”? Do you think this would be a good idea, even if their letter head states Religious Jews for J’s destruction? It would be Maaros Ayin at the very least. So using the word Zionists in your movement, even with “religious” beforehand is Maaros Ayin, at the very least!
Abelleh: Yes, you certainly need to go on. The first pasuk mentioned might only be in force until the decree of galus. You will have to prove otherwise. The second pasuk makes no mention of our obligation of yishuv eretz yisrael at all. The Ramban makes no mention of a medina, and as for the Rambam see further in halacha gimel. So please go on.
Health: No, it doesn’t. Please read my post again.
longarekel, perhaps you should prove that it is only in force until the decree of galus. from the text.
By the way, Rashi on the posuk in Bamidbor would seem to disagree with you. On “v’yishavtem boh” he says “tochlu l’hiskayem boh, v’im lav, lo tochlu l’hiskayem boh.” Which clearly indicates that it applies when you are able to establish yourself there.
Abelleh -“Sure. First let’s start with the pasukim:
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Now to the Ramban. In the back of sefer haMitzvos, the Rambam has a collection of mitzvos the Rambam “forgot,” and mitzvah 4 there says that you should make a medina.
The Rambam, Hilchos Milachim perek aleph halacha aleph says you need to appoint a king upon entering the land.”
Excuse me -You didn’t answer the question! The question was -Why should anyone support a Medina based on Kefira? Not what Mitzvos are there regarding making a Medina & Yishuv Haaretz?
“Need I go on?”
No, you actually need to start. Anything that you posted so far has nothing to do with the reality of what Gov. that Israel has in place right now! Stop confusing making a Medina based on Torah with the Medina of the Tzionim which is based on Kefira!
writersoul -“Health: No, it doesn’t. Please read my post again.”
I read your post, but obviously you didn’t read all of mine! I posted to others there are no guarantees in life despite e/o wanting one. Turkey was always good to the Jews. They believe more or less in democracy. Nothing can be worse than Tzionim in charge! So if you have to pick a country, Turkey is a logical choice, much better than any Arab Country!
Health & Co., the State is the greatest beracha to Am Yisrael and the world in millenia. The government being the way it is is due to the fact that there are approximately 800K Orthodox Jews (more than 10% of the current population) who do not live here and therefore do not vote. If you are unwilling or unable to help at least stop whining and get out of the way!
Avi K -“Health & Co., the State is the greatest beracha to Am Yisrael and the world in millenia.”
Again acc. to most Gedolim the State is and was a very bad thing! The only Machlokes was -what to do about it!
“The government being the way it is is due to the fact that there are approximately 800K Orthodox Jews (more than 10% of the current population) who do not live here and therefore do not vote.”
So would 800k people change the demographics? This still wouldn’t make a majority! And even if you do live there -a lot don’t vote because they were told Not to by their Gedolim!
“If you are unwilling or unable to help at least stop whining and get out of the way!”
Oh, I am helping. I’m putting out the Daas Torah – so more Jews will stop worshiping a Treif Medina! Stating Daas Torah -I really don’t think is “whining”! And I don’t think me or anybody else is in anybody’s way -people like you do what they want & have always done what they want! Maybe we are waking up some people’s conscious and this is bothering you (which I understand -why).
the Vilna Gaon says in a sefer that was written and published before the creation of the state that on that date in history, Hashem would give a special shefa to klal yisroel, so great that it could bring moshiach. But, adds the Gaon, the reshaim will sieze the moment, the frumme’ wont be able to take advantage, and something terrible will happen on that day instead. and so the state was born.
Actually, Toi, the Vilna Gaon’s entire discussion of the idea, of Moshiach (both ben Yosef and ben David – which were you talking about?) is found in the sefer Kol HaTor, which he wrote with his Great-Nephew Rav Hillel Shklover. In it, he introduces his formula for the “yomim” that will pass from the time he determined began the atchalta degeula (5500 or 1740 CE) until the zman. The nearest that it comes to the dates you cite in your post (I don’t know if you are talking about November 1947 at the UN, or May 1948) is two to three years earlier in 1945. He was pretty clear about the dates in his sefer. Check it out, its in the first perek.
BTW, there is a huge amount of evidence and information in his sefer that provides support for the establishment of a state, for example, his interpretation that it can be taken by force if necessary.
Abelleh -“[2] Im Timtzeh Lomar, that the Zionist movement are kofrim (which it isn’t, mind you; the entire Hesder and most Orthodox communities in America are Zionist), WE WOULD STILL NEED TO KEEP THE MEDINA.”
A good portion of the Frei Yidden in Israel are Kofrim and so is their gov. Who gave the MO’s permission to join hands with Kofrim? Even if they are just neighbors with them without any support whatsoever -it’s still Oy L’Resha V’oy L’schaino! You’re not allowed to support a Medina based on Kefira – acc. to the Torah, no matter who brainwashed you that you are!
“I wish to make this abundantly clear; the current Medina in Israel is not at all “treif”. If you believe it is, I would greatly appreciate some sort of source or fact showing (or better yet, proving) that it is. But again, even if it is, it doesn’t matter.”
And I wish to make it abundantly clear that eating pig is not at all “Treif”! If you believe it is, I would greatly appreciate some sort of source or fact showing (or better yet, proving) that it is. But again, even if it is, it doesn’t matter!
Everyday there are countless of Aveiros occuring in the “Medina”, such as Chillul Shabbos, eating Non-Kosher, etc., but who cares, right?
“Now you ask, “Hey, Abelleh. Where do you get that crazy idea from? If the Medina is against Torah values, of course we need to abandon it!” And then I would respond, “Well Health, if you look at Jewish history and Nach, we see all the time that the government in Israel is not at all religious, even anti-religious. Now, if we supported the government then, and I would like to note that not all of those times was the Beis Hamikdash extant, why shouldn’t we now? What changed Health?”
And you would respond how?”
If you look back at the times during those years when things weren’t being kept acc. to the Torah and we kept at it -this is why we Don’t have the Bais Hamikdash anymore. There was a reason Hashem took it away and it wasn’t because we had excellent behavior. The whole reason we even have documented all these incidents in the Nach is to learn from them. The reason it’s even called Novi -is because the Neeviim kept screaming to do Teshuva and noone listened. Making and having a Medina is doing all those mistakes all over again. Let me give you an example of how people can get blinded very easily and can’t even see an obvious lesson (or Musser Deherr!):
There was a son whose father was a drunk. He loved his father and wanted him to stop. One day he saw a drunkard (PBA -perhaps?)[:)]in the street and e/o was gathered around making fun of him. He quickly ran and called his father who was sober at the moment – to come and see to learn some Mussar. When the father got there -he bent down & asked the guy -“Hey what have you been drinking -it looks like some good stuff -I want to get some too!”
yichusdik -“BTW, there is a huge amount of evidence and information in his sefer that provides support for the establishment of a state, for example, his interpretation that it can be taken by force if necessary.”
So this “State” that the Gaon is talking about is one based on Kefira, right?!?!?
Health, I reject your premise that the state and its citizens are kofrim and it is based on kfira. I am sure that the Gaon was not talking about one based on kfira. He didn’t specify what the atchalta degeula would look like in terms of what type of government would be in place during these times and before the ultimate geula of moshiach ben dovid. I don’t know what it would look like and neither do you. and if you have any familiarity with the concepts of Moshiach ben Yosef and Moshiach ben Dovid, you will know that they and the kind of leadership they engender in bnei yisroel are quite different. BTW you didn’t answer abelleh’s question.
yichusdik -“Health, I reject your premise that the state and its citizens are kofrim and it is based on kfira.”
And I reject the premise that the Bais Hamikdash was destroyed. It’s still there -you just can’t see it.
Health, what about all the chillul Hashem, financial crimes, abuse, etc. in the “frum” community. Would you call them kofrim? Do you consider anyone but yourself to be at least a beinoni, at least according to Rambam (Hilchot Teshuva 3:3)? BTW, according to rav Kook, kefira comes about because of chesronot in the frum community in order to point out where the Orthodox are lacking.
Avi K — It is definitely brought down in Chazal that one who tries to do the right thing is helped. The question is whether that logic can be inverted to say that if one is helped in a specific situation, therefore you can conclude that your actions are right. I was specifically told by an Adam Gadol that such is NOT the case. One must figure out based on Halacha/ Torah Hashkafah if a specific action is right, and not just based on how successful it is. The idea here is that Hashem may have many calculations as to why something should succeed in addition to the above mentioned concept of helping someone doing the right thing (one example being that He is allowing the Satan to create confusion so as to enable us to exercise our bechira.) As I mentioned in my previous post, there were many evil individuals and countries throughout history who enjoyed power and success for many years (how many years did the Inquisition enjoy tremendous success?)
To be very clear, I am not saying the creation of the Medina is right or wrong — simply that I do not believe you can use the Nissim that were seen in many of the wars here as some sort of “proof” that it is right.
For the record, I do live in Eretz Yisroel, and I am a citizen who votes. We asked Sha’alos before we made Aliyah, both from my husband’s Rosh Yeshiva in America and from 3 of the biggest Chareidi Gedolim in Eretz Yisroel, and were told we should come.
Avi K -“Health, what about all the chillul Hashem, financial crimes, abuse, etc. in the “frum” community. Would you call them kofrim?”
Another corrupt false logic about Charedim! How many Charedim are involved in these things? I doubt it is even 1% -it’s probably not even 0.1%, but you blame the whole Charedi community for the actions of an extreme few. This is racism! I don’t care about a few bad apples so you can call them what you want. If it makes you happy -you can call them Kofrim. And now, how many Frei Jews including Israelis do things wrong? This seems to be 100%, otherwise they wouldn’t be Frei (Free)!
“BTW, according to rav Kook, kefira comes about because of chesronot in the frum community in order to point out where the Orthodox are lacking.”
Does this include Modern Orthodox or just Charedim? So maybe the Kefira is coming from the MO lack of observance. Eg. – How they support a Medina not based on Torah. How some don’t dress Tzinus and on & on & on!
Check out The Rebbe book
Health: Now you stoop to attacking Modern Orthodoxy. Mods, honestly, enough of this clown who has now said blatant motzei shem ra about tens of thousands of Jews. Please just ban him already.
Abe- They thouroughly support chillul shabbos and alternateive lifestyles. Do you actually want them to stand up and say they dont want a liofe that has any kesher to Hashem? They already lead the state like that; you should be able to discern their intentions and priorities without it being broadcasted. And for once, stop fooling yourself.
Abelleh -“Health: Could you please tell me how you know that the government in Israel is a government of kfira?”
Simple, because they don’t keep the Torah. Most don’t even try to keep anything!
Feif Un -“Health: Now you stoop to attacking Modern Orthodoxy. Mods, honestly, enough of this clown who has now said blatant motzei shem ra about tens of thousands of Jews. Please just ban him already.”
Mods -consistent with your new policy of Not tolerating any insults -please Delete his post and/or ban him.
HEALTH: CHAZAK!!
For the record: There are serious questions regarding the validity of all that is written in sefer ‘kol hator’. Rav M. Sternbuch mentions this in a teshuva. It seems that someone who had an agenda of legitimizing the state attemted to attach the haskama of the Vilna Gaon to his fabrications. Those who are familiar with the Vilna Gaon’s writings are not fooled.
Yes, yes, that’s the way to censor a sefer – that was written long before you or I were born. “It must be someone with an agenda.” “It can’t be glach if it doesn’t fit my worldview.”… Like many sforim, it didn’t come to us in 100% pristine and complete form. The editor who is the namesake of the Vilna Gaon’s father and is a descendant, had a significant kaboloh, and it impressed the talmidei chachomim who wrote haskomos for him.
In fact R’ Binyomin Rivlin, who was the father of R’ Hillel of Shklov who wrote the (original and complete) sefer Kol Hator, was also influenced by his cousin the Gaon regarding issues of the geuloh and he spoke about them, and these sources are distinct from Kol Hator. In any case the mid-60’s edition of the sefer had haskomos from the leadership at Ponevitch and some of the editors of Rav Dessler’s work Michtov Me’eliyohu. R’ Shlomo Zalman Rivlin who is apparently the source of some controversy for his attempt to publish the sefer (not backed by some propaganda machine, but very slowly, in small quantities, because he was a singular talmid chochom and a beloved chazan with few resources), was no lackey for anyone with an agenda.
See Yabi’a Omer O.C. helek 6 siman 41
Then see siman 42.
I hope this clarifies some issues.
Rabbi Chaim Friedlander said that there is no doubt as to its authenticity and that it is in completely from the Gra’s Tora. Rav Tzvi Yehuda (Kuk) also considered it to be a very important sefer and the 5754 edition has sevral introductions from rabbanei Yeushalayim . Even Rav Sternbuch admits taht the sefer “may” have been written by Rabbi Hillel Shklover (Rivlin) but that “inaccuracies” were put in. However, the sefer was first published by Rabbi Hillel’s descendants, who are such an illustrious family that one acquaintance of mine said that Yerushalayim has three eidot: Ashkenazim, Sepharadim and Rivlinim.
Zionism and the State have been unbelievably horrific disasters for our people. You can debate your Rambans and Rambams all you want, but, in addition to the clear multiple violations of the Torah that is Zionism, the facts on the ground are that Zionism and the State, as the holy Chafetz Chaim and many others said it would, has caused far more problems than the wicked Zionists thought they would solve.
Here’s a very quick and very much-abbreviated list. Before Zionism means before Zionism, not “Before 1948”.
Before Zionism, Teimanim had their mesorah and yahadus since bayis rishon and tens of thousands of sefardim were also still observant Jews, as would have been their descendants today and beyond.
Before Zionism, the Arabs did not virulently hate the Jews, and were generally cordial and even friendly. Even post-Zionism, some Arabs still recognize the fraud that is Zionism and correctly do not equate Zionism with, lihavdil, Judaism.
Before Zionism, Jews and Arabs lived peacefully in Eretz Yisrael (Just to head off the uninformed question, the Chevron Massacre was a direct result of *religious* Zionism – please excuse the paradox – according to Rabbi Baruch Kaplan who was there.)
Before Zionism, Jews were not seduced into becoming “post-Jewish” and culturally manipulated by (Zionist) Jews into giving up their faith in favor of Zionism.
Before Zionism, there was no need to send every young man and woman of 18 years old into the anti-Torah army that is the IDF nor was there the need for them to risk their life and limb by doing so.
May Hashem redeem us all, bringing the true Geulah, BB”A.
HaKatan: beautiful. I especially liked the (religious) zionist line.
Rabbosai: Ayin Sefer Emes L’Yaakov on Parshas Bo on “Hachodesh Hazeh L’chem etc”. Footnote halfway into piece which mentions about the medina. It states from R’Aaron’s grandson (mechaber of bottom) that Hashem let the medina to become a state because there are those who bec of it have a connection to yiddishkeit! It’s sad that most of Israel is part of that section. Ayin shum.
They have a connection to the ‘jewish’ state. They have no connection to yiddishkeit.
Before Zionism the world was sailing smoothly to Olam Haba.
Wrong, eastern Europe was turning into a Gehinnom for Jews.
In western Europe many Jews were heading to the baptismal font (R’l).
Others were fleeing to the spiritual desert.
Longarekel and HaKatan, your intense hatred of Zionism has blinded you from seeing the Hand of G-d in the last 64 years.
We see G-d, not some dark force as the Mover of history of the Jewish people.
Josh31 – So I guess Meretz’s law that they want to pass to help out Jews who turn away from Yiddishkeit is “the Hand of G-d, not some dark force”. It must be my “intense hatred of Zionism has blinded” me and therefore I think this is a Maaseh Soton!
God runs everything. This includes christianity, islam, zionism, buddism, gas chambers, etc. God certainly has a good purpose for everything, but our job is to follow the torah.
Even though many of the leaders after the Chanukah story were not pro Torah, we still consider the continued Jewish sovereignity to be the Hand of G-d.
Even though the northen kingdom was generally led by idolatrous kings we still consider their loss of sovereignity by Assyria to be a tradegy.
” to help out Jews who turn away from Yiddishkeit”
Maybe if they had been provided vocational training before they turned away from Torah observance they would still be Torah observant.
Denying a Jew vocational training is SHMAD.
Josh31 -So you still didn’t answer my point -people like Meretz are Yad Hashem and not Maaseh Soton, right????
“Maybe if they had been provided vocational training before they turned away from Torah observance they would still be Torah observant.
Denying a Jew vocational training is SHMAD.”
Oh because the Yeshivos don’t offer it -so they are Shmading e/o? Where did they ever deny s/o from going to school? Ya know when I was ready to look for Parnassa -I applied and got into technical school and then college. What prevents any Frum person from doing the same? This logic is totally Krum! This must be the same logic that the Tzionim are using, but they aren’t Masseh Soton, they are the Yad Hashem. Right, whatever you say!
Josh, you need to get your story straight. The Chashmonoim from the Chanukah story were all pro Torah.
HaKatan, before Zionism, Jews in E. Europe had to endure cruel pogroms and persecution.
As far as Sefardim go, I do not know what would have happened, had they stayed in the Arab countries — they, to begin with, were not in good shape observance-wise.
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