May 22, 2011 5:38 pm at 5:38 pm #597027Huyde LaHashemMember
i mean, come on, this is getting out of hand! everywhere i go they are hanging out. why is this such a prob in our dor?May 22, 2011 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm #779387
Go through the coffee room, you’ll find all kinds of interesting theories.
One poster thinks it’s because fathers sometimes don’t attend their daughters’ graduations.
Another poster on the same thread thinks it’s because we don’t let boys and girls socialize enough.May 22, 2011 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #779388yoyo56Member
i totaly agree that it is a very big issue i dont know what the reason is most prob diff for every child but one of the reasons or major problems is the school system that u gotta be the type or not if ur not the type to sit and learn then u cant go to school cuz that pretty much all they do they dont offer anything hands on which kids/teens would like therefore kids drop out and what else is there to do but hang out and learn from the other kids how they conducyt thier lives and do the same and also there is this thing that if u talk to the opp gender u are considered off then kicked out of ur skool teenagers have this tavah and want to talk to the opp gender ever more when u tell them not to its a very hard yetzer hara to conquer and its a really big issue nowadays which skool dont help the students overcome because as soon as they do start to take of this issue it will get worse kids that are fune will start talking to the opp gender
schools really have to start dealing with these issues either by getting guidance counselor which kids can trust that their secrets will not be told to anyone bec each day there are more kids who go off its very sad!!!May 22, 2011 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #779389longislandmomMember
The reason it has become such a problem in our dor is that we have become very restrictive. Teens and young adults have no opportunities to socialize in a normal manner. These restrictions seem to create kids who feel dissatisfied with all the rules and therefore rebel. Allow teens to behave like teens, but give them a supervised, safe environment to grow it.May 22, 2011 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #779390
It is probably because of whatever you would like changed in our communities.
That way, you can have a moral imperative to force your changes on everyone.May 22, 2011 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #779391ZeesKiteParticipant
Simchas HaChaim & Simchas HaMitzvos.
Keep pumping it in. Over & over again. Like Rabbi Miller says, you have to make a propaganda project out of it. Sometimes one must show out one’s eagerness & ‘geshmack’ in doing HaShem’s ratzon – to their own children. In this instance ‘anava’ should not play a role.May 22, 2011 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #779392
It is probably because of whatever you would like changed in our communities.
That way, you can have a moral imperative to force your changes on everyone.
To paraphrase the earlier posters (I will now drip sarcasm), we should permit our youth do do every issur imaginable; once there is no derech, they can’t go off of it!May 22, 2011 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #779393canineMember
The OTD issue stems from the lack of proper parental and school discipline and the breakdown of proper boundaries and the resulting laxity where children are allowed inappropriate contact with people they should not be with (i.e. opposite gender, and teens who are not fully Torah observant.)May 22, 2011 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #779394fedup11210Member
There is more than ! reason teens go off, but !reason that the director of priority! feels is a big problem is that, these teens dont understand the fundamentals of yiddishkeit they just go through the motions without understanding what its all about. yeshivos if children have questions ADDRESS THEM DONT IGNORE THEM. maybe if yeshivos would teach hashkafa and sefer hachinuch there would be less off the derech teens.May 22, 2011 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #779395
We know what you think, you blame the schools.May 22, 2011 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #779396goWTBYMember
the problem is that your “dor” is constantly telling our “dor” what to do. Kids need to find their own space. The older generation is always squeezing teens into the place they want us to be, so we have to go to bigger extremes to be our own selves.May 22, 2011 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #779397
Those who are smarter than Shlomo Hamelech who said “Hanoch le-naar al pi darco” are a big cause of boys going in improper ways.
Most boys are not future Roshei Yeshivos.
If the wrong boy is pushed in the “Rosh Yeshiva” path, he will drag the “Crown of Torah” through the mud in a public thoroughfare.
Others will be pushed away by a teacher who misrepresents a Chassidic Minhag as a a major Biblical law.May 22, 2011 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #779398
the problem is that your “dor” is constantly telling our “dor” what to do.
It’s called chinuch.May 22, 2011 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #779401canineMember
Josh: Many are pushed away by a teacher who misrepresents a mandatory halacha as an optional minhug.May 22, 2011 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #779402
You should take that back.
Chazal did institute rules of yichud, but that doesn’t mean that everything which doesn’t violate a specific halacha is proper and lechatchila.
You know that.May 22, 2011 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #779403HIEParticipant
i saw a ton of them lastnight by one of the bonfires i went to. its so sadd.May 22, 2011 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #779404goWTBYMember
CHinuch is teaching us what to do, not stuffing us in a boxMay 22, 2011 7:47 pm at 7:47 pm #779405
canine: You are also correct.
Example that comes to mind:
The obligation of a husband to support his familyMay 22, 2011 7:47 pm at 7:47 pm #779406
It’s only chinuch if what they’re teaching is right.May 22, 2011 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #779407
Oh yes. Kids are going off the derech because their teachers misrepresent the obligation of a husband to support his wife as optional.May 22, 2011 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #779408GeshmakManParticipant
As someone in chinuch for over 10 years, I can recommend this for starters: One should spend less time in the CR and more with his/her kids.
CR/Cellphone/Facebook/etc etc – enough with the gadgets, kids need parents not texts.May 22, 2011 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #779409
Popa, that’s not the whole issue. It’s them representing the obligation of a husband to support a moised as more obligatory than his obligation to support his wife.May 22, 2011 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #779410
Itche: Don’t join them. Like I said before, we shouldn’t go around trying to fit our rants into every problem facing our community.May 22, 2011 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #779411
Girls are driven to become very career oriented.
During the 80 hour workweeks to make Law Partner the role as a Jewish wife / mother is lost.May 22, 2011 8:04 pm at 8:04 pm #779412
Popa, you’re probably right. At my age (21) it’s not good to get too upset.May 22, 2011 8:04 pm at 8:04 pm #779413gradaMember
at the end of the day its kids being emotionally suffocated that causes all of these problemsMay 22, 2011 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #7794141st timerParticipant
I know so many kids that have learning difficulties and if this issue is not addressed by the schools ASAP these kids will possibly go off the derech eventually. These kids need something to give them satisfaction, like other kids get from “Chapping” a piece of Gemorrah, etc. Why aren’t they being offered on a regular basis other classes like Halacha or Hashkafa. Why dont they have Chessed programs (for boys) like going to nursing homes or packing Tomchei Shabbos packages or spending some time doing kiruv with Russians boys, etc.??? Start with once a month, say every Rosh Chodesh. These boys will have some incentive, and something exhilirating to look forward to. They, too, should have opportunity to feel accomplishments. One other idea, is to start implements training skills (plumbing, electrical, contracting,EMT….) into yeshivos. Trust me they would understand math and physics… even better. Times have changed and yeshivos should get with the program and see that the kids are no longer “cookie cutter” material.May 22, 2011 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #779415gefenParticipant
Daas Yochid – ur very funny 🙂
I certainly do not think kids are otd cuz fathers can’t come to grads or because girls and boys can’t socialize.
first of all – i totally do not think boys and girls should socialize – not from our circles anyway. maybe in the more modern circles it’s acceptable.
however,i do think we can go a bit overboard with certain rules. ie: the grad situation – but that’s not for this thread.
i am very upset about all the otd situations we see. it’s very sad when you see kids from good frum families going off the derech.
what i do see is sometimes parents are not that involved in their kids lives – that could be one reason. there are numerous other reasons such as peer pressure etc. we have to be so thankful when our kids are on the right derech! B”H we have a very close family and we are proud of our kids- all of whom have simchas hachayim and simchas hamitzvos!May 22, 2011 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #779416jewish sourceParticipant
Unfortunately its the adults that are OFF.
If the captain of a ship looses his way the whole ship is in danger
That the family’s today rmltz the captains ate lost in every sense of the wordMay 22, 2011 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm #779417Midwest2Participant
When we stop worrying so much about what the neighbors will think and start worrying about what our own kids will think – then the problem will be half solved. If your kid wears a blue shirt – so what? If he doesn’t want to be the next Gadol haDor – so what? I’ve heard people say really hurtful things to their kids because they were embarrassed in front of the neighbors. Or the ultimate – “How will anybody in our family ever make a good shidduch?”
Care about your kids – they’re the ikar – not about the tofel that the neighbors gossip about.May 22, 2011 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #779418HealthParticipant
Daas Yochid -“We know what you think, you blame the schools.”
And all schools are blameless? What about schools who protect abusers? Imagine if you or your child were a victim and to add insult to injury, not only don’t they care but they deny you Justice!May 22, 2011 9:45 pm at 9:45 pm #779419OfcourseMember
With exaggeration, this is the atmosphere we are raising children in today:
Shteig, shteig, shteig exactly as I tell you to. If you dont follow the rules, you’re letting Hashem and everyone down and the world will suffer the consequences (possibly another Holocaust). If you follow the rules exactly, you’ll be happy.
Guilt and shame for those who cant follow or wont follow exactly.
No fun allowed.
No questions allowed.
To summarize: An unrealistic view of childhood, for many.May 22, 2011 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #779420
*like*May 22, 2011 11:21 pm at 11:21 pm #779422
It’s an amazing thing. We have so many problems,
1) Fathers being banned from graduations
2) Kids not being allowed to socialize with opposite gender
3) Too much contact with opposite gender
4) Kids not being allowed to socialize with same gender
5) No guidance councilors (at least not ones who can keep a secret)
6) Parents and teachers who are too restrictive
7) Parents and teachers who are not restrictive enough
8) No classes in hashkafa
9) No classes in Sefer Hachinuch
10)Everyone expected to become Roshei Yeshivos (girls too?)
11)Being told what to do by the previous dor
12)Being taught wrongly
13)Teachers who misrepresent the obligation of a husband to support his wife as optional
13)Being emotionally suffocated
14)Stuffing kids in a box
15)Adults who are OFF
17)Insistence on rule following
18)No fun allowed
19)No questions allowed
20)An unrealistic view of childhood
22)Taking care of babies
and yet, so many of our children are not off the derech.
It’s unexplainable!May 23, 2011 12:02 am at 12:02 am #779423
Why would anyone want to be frum
Because Hashem said they should. That is enough reason alone. Even if he/she perceives everything stinks. And saying that’s not good enough reason will get that person a nice hot welcome mat to cook in after all is said and done. So if he/she decides to throw away following Hashem’s commands, it is his/her ultimate loss.May 23, 2011 12:29 am at 12:29 am #779424
just because something may be true does not mean that everyone necessarily cares. True, someone should be frum because Hashem said so, and everything else is irrelevant. The trick is getting people TO CARE (caps b/c I can’t italicize) about what Hashem wants.
Yes, so many people are still on the derech b”H. This doesn’t mean the system isn’t flawed.
Numbers don’t prove that something is being taught correctly (or is right). Look how few Jews there are in the world…May 23, 2011 12:33 am at 12:33 am #779425
We have a very good system and it works.May 23, 2011 12:33 am at 12:33 am #779426whatelseisleftMember
but hashem didn’t say you need to be machmir machmir machmir.
if you are raised to that extent and then you just CAN’T be that much— then why should you be looked down upon if you just follow hacholot?May 23, 2011 12:34 am at 12:34 am #779427
good point shlishi. I never thought of it that way.May 23, 2011 12:34 am at 12:34 am #779428
BTW, as an aside, we have more people becoming newly frum these days, then we probably ever had in history.May 23, 2011 12:37 am at 12:37 am #779429zahavasdadParticipant
One can bury their heads in the sand and ignore problems or one can attempt to solve them
If your teen is on the dereach, then this doesnt apply to you, but for those who are or might be leaning in that direction then the system is a failureMay 23, 2011 12:40 am at 12:40 am #779430
shlishi, you are pushing Fire and Brimstone Judaism, not darchei noam. Your attitude and the sarcastic attitude of Daas Yochid is what turns people off.
Fortunately, there are plenty of parents and teachers who do not share this attitude, and thanks to them Torah Judaism will survive.May 23, 2011 12:44 am at 12:44 am #779431
This doesn’t mean the system isn’t flawed.
Nobody ever said the system is perfect; it can’t be, since human beings are involved. But the wholesale changes which are being recommended (by implication) are likely to make things worse.May 23, 2011 12:46 am at 12:46 am #779432yeshivabochur123Participant
Even the best of systems is not going to work for everyone. The frum yeshivish community did manage to find a very good system that works for the overwhelming majority of us. What’s left for the people who can’t learn? I don’t know but they are a minority and while everyone is important the most importance goes to the klal. There’s different things everyone doesn’t like about the system but as a whole it does the most good for the most people. By the way there are alternative yeshivos like Lancaster that do teach trades.May 23, 2011 1:12 am at 1:12 am #779433
Your attitude and the sarcastic attitude of Daas Yochid is what turns people off.
What’s interesting is that we have a much more positive attitude than all of the negative attitudes expressed here. Rather than bashing everything, I’m saying that things are pretty good. Of course we should try to do even better because every neshama lost is indeed a tragedy (on this we can all agree).May 23, 2011 2:27 am at 2:27 am #779434MDGParticipant
All our conjecturing is not getting anywhere. There was book written about this. I have not read it but I heard that it is good. It’s called
Off the Derech: Why Observant Jews Leave Judaism; How to Respond to the Challenge
By Faranak MargoleseMay 23, 2011 2:34 am at 2:34 am #779435Pac-ManMember
And what makes you confident said author is not conjecturing his personal biases?May 23, 2011 2:40 am at 2:40 am #779436zahavasdadParticipant
I have read the book
The author of the book is an Iranian woman who went off the dereach and returned.
She then asked people who went off why they didMay 23, 2011 2:48 am at 2:48 am #779437mikehall12382Member
The sad thing is there are many kids who are off, but in front of family they pretend to still be frum….so the problem is probably bigger the we realize….how do I know? Becaus I personally had freinds that did this and their parents had no idea…May 23, 2011 2:52 am at 2:52 am #779438Pac-ManMember
And the author is any more right than anyone here because?
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