Whats with the off-the-derech teens?!?!

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  • #597027

    i mean, come on, this is getting out of hand! everywhere i go they are hanging out. why is this such a prob in our dor?

    #779387

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Go through the coffee room, you’ll find all kinds of interesting theories.

    One poster thinks it’s because fathers sometimes don’t attend their daughters’ graduations.

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/men-banned-from-girls-graduations#post-244526

    Another poster on the same thread thinks it’s because we don’t let boys and girls socialize enough.

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/men-banned-from-girls-graduations/page/2#post-248847

    #779388

    yoyo56
    Member

    i totaly agree that it is a very big issue i dont know what the reason is most prob diff for every child but one of the reasons or major problems is the school system that u gotta be the type or not if ur not the type to sit and learn then u cant go to school cuz that pretty much all they do they dont offer anything hands on which kids/teens would like therefore kids drop out and what else is there to do but hang out and learn from the other kids how they conducyt thier lives and do the same and also there is this thing that if u talk to the opp gender u are considered off then kicked out of ur skool teenagers have this tavah and want to talk to the opp gender ever more when u tell them not to its a very hard yetzer hara to conquer and its a really big issue nowadays which skool dont help the students overcome because as soon as they do start to take of this issue it will get worse kids that are fune will start talking to the opp gender

    schools really have to start dealing with these issues either by getting guidance counselor which kids can trust that their secrets will not be told to anyone bec each day there are more kids who go off its very sad!!!

    #779389

    The reason it has become such a problem in our dor is that we have become very restrictive. Teens and young adults have no opportunities to socialize in a normal manner. These restrictions seem to create kids who feel dissatisfied with all the rules and therefore rebel. Allow teens to behave like teens, but give them a supervised, safe environment to grow it.

    #779390

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    It is probably because of whatever you would like changed in our communities.

    That way, you can have a moral imperative to force your changes on everyone.

    #779391

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    Simchas HaChaim & Simchas HaMitzvos.

    Keep pumping it in. Over & over again. Like Rabbi Miller says, you have to make a propaganda project out of it. Sometimes one must show out one’s eagerness & ‘geshmack’ in doing HaShem’s ratzon – to their own children. In this instance ‘anava’ should not play a role.

    #779392

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It is probably because of whatever you would like changed in our communities.

    That way, you can have a moral imperative to force your changes on everyone.

    Precisely!

    To paraphrase the earlier posters (I will now drip sarcasm), we should permit our youth do do every issur imaginable; once there is no derech, they can’t go off of it!

    #779393

    canine
    Member

    The OTD issue stems from the lack of proper parental and school discipline and the breakdown of proper boundaries and the resulting laxity where children are allowed inappropriate contact with people they should not be with (i.e. opposite gender, and teens who are not fully Torah observant.)

    #779394

    fedup11210
    Member

    There is more than ! reason teens go off, but !reason that the director of priority! feels is a big problem is that, these teens dont understand the fundamentals of yiddishkeit they just go through the motions without understanding what its all about. yeshivos if children have questions ADDRESS THEM DONT IGNORE THEM. maybe if yeshivos would teach hashkafa and sefer hachinuch there would be less off the derech teens.

    #779395

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant
    #779396

    goWTBY
    Member

    the problem is that your “dor” is constantly telling our “dor” what to do. Kids need to find their own space. The older generation is always squeezing teens into the place they want us to be, so we have to go to bigger extremes to be our own selves.

    #779397

    Josh31
    Participant

    Those who are smarter than Shlomo Hamelech who said “Hanoch le-naar al pi darco” are a big cause of boys going in improper ways.

    Most boys are not future Roshei Yeshivos.

    If the wrong boy is pushed in the “Rosh Yeshiva” path, he will drag the “Crown of Torah” through the mud in a public thoroughfare.

    Others will be pushed away by a teacher who misrepresents a Chassidic Minhag as a a major Biblical law.

    #779398

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    the problem is that your “dor” is constantly telling our “dor” what to do.

    It’s called chinuch.

    #779401

    canine
    Member

    Josh: Many are pushed away by a teacher who misrepresents a mandatory halacha as an optional minhug.

    #779402

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    feif:

    You should take that back.

    Chazal did institute rules of yichud, but that doesn’t mean that everything which doesn’t violate a specific halacha is proper and lechatchila.

    You know that.

    #779403

    HIE
    Participant

    i saw a ton of them lastnight by one of the bonfires i went to. its so sadd.

    #779404

    goWTBY
    Member

    CHinuch is teaching us what to do, not stuffing us in a box

    #779405

    Josh31
    Participant

    canine: You are also correct.

    Example that comes to mind:

    The obligation of a husband to support his family

    #779406

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    It’s only chinuch if what they’re teaching is right.

    #779407

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Oh yes. Kids are going off the derech because their teachers misrepresent the obligation of a husband to support his wife as optional.

    #779408

    GeshmakMan
    Participant

    As someone in chinuch for over 10 years, I can recommend this for starters: One should spend less time in the CR and more with his/her kids.

    CR/Cellphone/Facebook/etc etc – enough with the gadgets, kids need parents not texts.

    #779409

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Popa, that’s not the whole issue. It’s them representing the obligation of a husband to support a moised as more obligatory than his obligation to support his wife.

    #779410

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Itche: Don’t join them. Like I said before, we shouldn’t go around trying to fit our rants into every problem facing our community.

    #779411

    Josh31
    Participant

    popa_bar_abba:

    Girls are driven to become very career oriented.

    During the 80 hour workweeks to make Law Partner the role as a Jewish wife / mother is lost.

    #779412

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Popa, you’re probably right. At my age (21) it’s not good to get too upset.

    #779413

    grada
    Member

    at the end of the day its kids being emotionally suffocated that causes all of these problems

    #779414

    1st timer
    Participant

    I know so many kids that have learning difficulties and if this issue is not addressed by the schools ASAP these kids will possibly go off the derech eventually. These kids need something to give them satisfaction, like other kids get from “Chapping” a piece of Gemorrah, etc. Why aren’t they being offered on a regular basis other classes like Halacha or Hashkafa. Why dont they have Chessed programs (for boys) like going to nursing homes or packing Tomchei Shabbos packages or spending some time doing kiruv with Russians boys, etc.??? Start with once a month, say every Rosh Chodesh. These boys will have some incentive, and something exhilirating to look forward to. They, too, should have opportunity to feel accomplishments. One other idea, is to start implements training skills (plumbing, electrical, contracting,EMT….) into yeshivos. Trust me they would understand math and physics… even better. Times have changed and yeshivos should get with the program and see that the kids are no longer “cookie cutter” material.

    #779415

    gefen
    Participant

    Daas Yochid – ur very funny 🙂

    I certainly do not think kids are otd cuz fathers can’t come to grads or because girls and boys can’t socialize.

    first of all – i totally do not think boys and girls should socialize – not from our circles anyway. maybe in the more modern circles it’s acceptable.

    however,i do think we can go a bit overboard with certain rules. ie: the grad situation – but that’s not for this thread.

    i am very upset about all the otd situations we see. it’s very sad when you see kids from good frum families going off the derech.

    what i do see is sometimes parents are not that involved in their kids lives – that could be one reason. there are numerous other reasons such as peer pressure etc. we have to be so thankful when our kids are on the right derech! B”H we have a very close family and we are proud of our kids- all of whom have simchas hachayim and simchas hamitzvos!

    #779416

    jewish source
    Participant

    Unfortunately its the adults that are OFF.

    If the captain of a ship looses his way the whole ship is in danger

    That the family’s today rmltz the captains ate lost in every sense of the word

    #779417

    Midwest2
    Participant

    When we stop worrying so much about what the neighbors will think and start worrying about what our own kids will think – then the problem will be half solved. If your kid wears a blue shirt – so what? If he doesn’t want to be the next Gadol haDor – so what? I’ve heard people say really hurtful things to their kids because they were embarrassed in front of the neighbors. Or the ultimate – “How will anybody in our family ever make a good shidduch?”

    Care about your kids – they’re the ikar – not about the tofel that the neighbors gossip about.

    #779418

    Health
    Participant

    Daas Yochid -“We know what you think, you blame the schools.”

    And all schools are blameless? What about schools who protect abusers? Imagine if you or your child were a victim and to add insult to injury, not only don’t they care but they deny you Justice!

    #779419

    Ofcourse
    Member

    With exaggeration, this is the atmosphere we are raising children in today:

    Shteig, shteig, shteig exactly as I tell you to. If you dont follow the rules, you’re letting Hashem and everyone down and the world will suffer the consequences (possibly another Holocaust). If you follow the rules exactly, you’ll be happy.

    Guilt and shame for those who cant follow or wont follow exactly.

    No fun allowed.

    No questions allowed.

    To summarize: An unrealistic view of childhood, for many.

    #779420

    yid.period
    Member

    ofcourse

    *like*

    #779422

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It’s an amazing thing. We have so many problems,

    1) Fathers being banned from graduations

    2) Kids not being allowed to socialize with opposite gender

    3) Too much contact with opposite gender

    4) Kids not being allowed to socialize with same gender

    5) No guidance councilors (at least not ones who can keep a secret)

    6) Parents and teachers who are too restrictive

    7) Parents and teachers who are not restrictive enough

    8) No classes in hashkafa

    9) No classes in Sefer Hachinuch

    10)Everyone expected to become Roshei Yeshivos (girls too?)

    11)Being told what to do by the previous dor

    12)Being taught wrongly

    13)Teachers who misrepresent the obligation of a husband to support his wife as optional

    13)Being emotionally suffocated

    14)Stuffing kids in a box

    15)Adults who are OFF

    16)Blameworthy schools

    17)Insistence on rule following

    18)No fun allowed

    19)No questions allowed

    20)An unrealistic view of childhood

    21)Studying Torah

    22)Taking care of babies

    and yet, so many of our children are not off the derech.

    It’s unexplainable!

    #779423

    shlishi
    Member

    Why would anyone want to be frum

    Because Hashem said they should. That is enough reason alone. Even if he/she perceives everything stinks. And saying that’s not good enough reason will get that person a nice hot welcome mat to cook in after all is said and done. So if he/she decides to throw away following Hashem’s commands, it is his/her ultimate loss.

    #779424

    yid.period
    Member

    shlishi

    just because something may be true does not mean that everyone necessarily cares. True, someone should be frum because Hashem said so, and everything else is irrelevant. The trick is getting people TO CARE (caps b/c I can’t italicize) about what Hashem wants.

    And DY

    Yes, so many people are still on the derech b”H. This doesn’t mean the system isn’t flawed.

    Numbers don’t prove that something is being taught correctly (or is right). Look how few Jews there are in the world…

    #779425

    shlishi
    Member

    We have a very good system and it works.

    #779426

    shlishi:

    but hashem didn’t say you need to be machmir machmir machmir.

    if you are raised to that extent and then you just CAN’T be that much— then why should you be looked down upon if you just follow hacholot?

    #779427

    yid.period
    Member

    good point shlishi. I never thought of it that way.

    #779428

    shlishi
    Member

    BTW, as an aside, we have more people becoming newly frum these days, then we probably ever had in history.

    #779429

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    One can bury their heads in the sand and ignore problems or one can attempt to solve them

    If your teen is on the dereach, then this doesnt apply to you, but for those who are or might be leaning in that direction then the system is a failure

    #779430

    Josh31
    Participant

    shlishi, you are pushing Fire and Brimstone Judaism, not darchei noam. Your attitude and the sarcastic attitude of Daas Yochid is what turns people off.

    Fortunately, there are plenty of parents and teachers who do not share this attitude, and thanks to them Torah Judaism will survive.

    #779431

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    This doesn’t mean the system isn’t flawed.

    Nobody ever said the system is perfect; it can’t be, since human beings are involved. But the wholesale changes which are being recommended (by implication) are likely to make things worse.

    #779432

    yeshivabochur123
    Participant

    Even the best of systems is not going to work for everyone. The frum yeshivish community did manage to find a very good system that works for the overwhelming majority of us. What’s left for the people who can’t learn? I don’t know but they are a minority and while everyone is important the most importance goes to the klal. There’s different things everyone doesn’t like about the system but as a whole it does the most good for the most people. By the way there are alternative yeshivos like Lancaster that do teach trades.

    #779433

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Your attitude and the sarcastic attitude of Daas Yochid is what turns people off.

    #23

    What’s interesting is that we have a much more positive attitude than all of the negative attitudes expressed here. Rather than bashing everything, I’m saying that things are pretty good. Of course we should try to do even better because every neshama lost is indeed a tragedy (on this we can all agree).

    #779434

    MDG
    Participant

    All our conjecturing is not getting anywhere. There was book written about this. I have not read it but I heard that it is good. It’s called

    Off the Derech: Why Observant Jews Leave Judaism; How to Respond to the Challenge

    By Faranak Margolese

    #779435

    Pac-Man
    Member

    And what makes you confident said author is not conjecturing his personal biases?

    #779436

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I have read the book

    The author of the book is an Iranian woman who went off the dereach and returned.

    She then asked people who went off why they did

    #779437

    The sad thing is there are many kids who are off, but in front of family they pretend to still be frum….so the problem is probably bigger the we realize….how do I know? Becaus I personally had freinds that did this and their parents had no idea…

    #779438

    Pac-Man
    Member

    And the author is any more right than anyone here because?

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