Tagged: does anyone actually see tags
November 10, 2021 11:55 pm at 11:55 pm #2026954Ober ChochomParticipant
I ask my question every time I look at the coffee room. Why are we so split?
Ahavas Yisrael is not only a mitzvah, but it’s a chiyuv!
The only way Moshiach will come, the only way we will get back the Bais Hamikdash, the only way we will have the Sanhedrin back, the only way we will have Eretz Yisrael FULLY back (in frum hands), the only way we will have Malchus Bais Dovid back, is if we are B’achdus.
Achdus doesn’t mean we have to agree on everyone else’s perspectives & views.
Unity means that regardless of our differences of opinions and regardless of our different so-called ‘cultures’, yet we still respect, and not only respect, but are happy with our fellow Yidden.
I don’t know what Hashem does, but I think we can all tell that Hashem is crying, waiting for the day that his children will finally be happy with each other and unite as a nation.
Lehavdil, If you have children, would you like it if they were fighting and bickering and saying false things and lashon hara about each other? No. You would be very hurt.
Please, I need answers, for when will we all be united as one nation?November 11, 2021 12:02 am at 12:02 am #2026997
So everytime someone takes the time to respond to one of your long question filled posts you go to another thread and say it all over again. Try sticking with one thread and answer the people who answered you. Have a conversation instead of calling other people divisive (again). When people give you concrete reasons why they cannot accept lubavitch why do you have to call them names? Why can’t you just say eilu v’eilu? Do you have to go start another thread now because I actually pointed out that we aren’t fighting you?
Regardless of how I feel about lubavitch, you are yidden and you would be treated by me no differently than any other yid. Of course you wouldn’t eat in my house or use my sivlerware and you would call them treif, but that isn’t me being a hater. And honestly, I couldn’t care less because you are holding to what you have learned.
What is your complaint?November 11, 2021 5:15 am at 5:15 am #2027008
Will you honestly say that you do not wish or think it’s best if everyone were lubavitch? Will you say openly that a lubavitcher is not better, more enlightened, or more authentic than a litvak who never heard of the sefiros, and that all forms of avodas Hashem are equally valid?
Ask yourself these questions and think about them for a while; they’re part of the reason why chabad complain about achdus and ahavas yisroel whenever they’re confronted with opposition.
They’re also part of the reason why true achdus will not he achievable so long as one segment believes themselves to have a monopoly on Torah, so much so that they brazenly send missionaries into yeshivos and shuls to convert young, impressionable jewish men to their beliefs.November 11, 2021 7:59 am at 7:59 am #2027040
After thinking about those questions, i think that an honest lubavitcher will admit that they want achdus….so long as everyone is chabad, or at least acknowledges the superiority and the “nesius” of their late rebbe. Similar to how north korea wants “unity” with the south.November 11, 2021 8:00 am at 8:00 am #2027041
Also, i wonder how the lubavitcher rebbe reconciled his shitoh that the secular torah-trashing state must not give “even one inch” of land back to the arabs with the gemara that says ( Sanhedrin 98a) that moshiach doesn’t come until even the smallest rulership of yisroel is depleted. The lubavitcher rebbe framed his activities around bringing moshiach, but here if israel insists on not “giving one inch”, won’t that delay bias hamoshiach?November 11, 2021 8:02 am at 8:02 am #2027055ymribiatParticipant
I’m humbled. I thought I had the monopoly on sarcasm and cynicism.November 11, 2021 8:02 am at 8:02 am #2027048
Is your point that we must respect, love and be happy with Reform and Conservative Yidden?November 11, 2021 8:29 am at 8:29 am #2027073Ober ChochomParticipant
Why is this thread all about Lubavitch? This is about klal yisrael in general, you might be confusing this thread with another.November 11, 2021 9:24 am at 9:24 am #2027104
This was clearly a carry over; let’s be honest.November 11, 2021 3:57 pm at 3:57 pm #2027183boruchbrown123Participant
There has never been Jewish unity at any point in Jewish history, look through Tanach.
Why do you expect it to start now?November 11, 2021 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #2027184rightwriterParticipant
Ujm”Is your point that we must respect, love and be happy with Reform and Conservative Yidden?”
It’s a valid point. True they are on what we would consider the wrong path and mindset, but if they truly are Jews since there are so many who falsely claim to be Jewish and join since they accept all types, then I guess we still should respect them as Yidden because that’s what they are. I mean does achdus only apply to orthodox or to those Jews who we consider to be on the right path as we see it?
In a way I feel that the reform and conservative have more achdus than we have in the frum communities where we are so judgmental, taught to be judgemental and stick our nose into others business, and look down upon anyone who we think isn’t on our level. Usually conservative”Rabbis” are very enthusiastic to meet other Yidden. But again I obviously all sides aren’t perfect.November 11, 2021 8:40 pm at 8:40 pm #2027275
Right; it’s easier to have a false sense of unity when one is not interested in the subject matter. Conservative and reform jews have no problem getting along with Christians, atheists, and buddhists, because they don’t consider these beliefs to be anathema. It is not due to any love, but rather due to a lack of love of and conviction in Torah and Hashem.
We respect any person because of kovod habrios, he is a tzelem elokim regardless of belief. Whether or not you want to be around a specific person will depend on that person’s influence and potential to cause harm to one’s self or family.November 11, 2021 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #2027276
The proof to this is that conservative and reform have no respect or tolerance for racists, climate change skeptics, anti-legbt or anti feminists. When it’s something they care about they are just as… Actually more discriminatory than we are, albeit for the wrong reasons.November 11, 2021 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #2027280Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
First, we should stop assigning people positions and names based on the group they belong to. There is a halachik literature on that, whether gemora forbids offensive kinuim, or any as I think rambam recasts it. This is especially hard online and double in an anonymous group, where everyone has a kinui lehathila.November 12, 2021 12:29 pm at 12:29 pm #2027546
Syag, I’m a bit baffled on your portrayal of the recent Chabad bashing as defensive and those trying to defend Chabad as offensive.November 12, 2021 12:29 pm at 12:29 pm #2027547
Creating Achdus is tricky, and might require some good tricks, too. You can’t enter an argument and yell Achdus. What are you even picturing as the desired outcome?
Aharin Hakohen used a trick on small scale arguments. Duh the big one he fell on his face. Disagreements are explosive. פוטר מים ראשית מדון. While it is possible to disagree without hate, it is very dangerous and extremely prone to break open.
People often imagine that they’ll have the last word when they are “Mocheh” sharply. That their shocking, inflammatory words will bring the other side in line and all will end well. Hardly does it come into consideration that the other side will simply receive the message as hate and will respond in kind. Guess what happens next.
Calling yourself a נרדף as a winning technique doesn’t mean you are more peaceful. If you truly want peace, it takes great diligence, a lot of pic picture thinking, compete self control and then, if you’re lucky it can subside after some time.November 12, 2021 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #2027568
HaLeiVi – not sure what you are confused about specifically. There was a different thread he popped onto, telling everyone how ignorant and hateful they are and how and asking for a response. Then he accidentally responded to someone using a different screen name (currently in use) and ditched that thread, going to another with the same stuff. After a resonse or two over there he then opened this one, giving the impression it is a “new topic” but feeding on the same old one. If you just walked in, then maybe you didn’t catch that. When they are asked questions about some of their minhagim, and sources are given for why the questions are asked, the response has been pretty consistently that we are haters and bashers. That is not an appropriate response, and I think they were taught it (unless there were hundreds of chabaniks all coming up with the same wording coincidentally on their own) to keep them seperate and above non chabadniks. which I believe is even more divisive than questioning someones minhagim/hashkafos.
My kvetch is primarily on the offensive (vs defensive) tone that they have been using when the question was not framed that way as well. The manner of arguing, if you will.November 12, 2021 2:29 pm at 2:29 pm #2027595
Do realize that no matter how polite people are trying to sound, theft are, after all, attacking a community along with their Rebbe, who they hold most dear and holy. This is not simply a disagreement. They are being accused of going against the Torah, of heresy, and of not being Jewish. Saying it with a smile doesn’t help.November 12, 2021 2:29 pm at 2:29 pm #2027596
So the setup is that you have the professional, soft spoken snipers talking aim with a cigarette hanging out and the target, obviously frightened, scratches and bites. But, who is hunting and who is the hunted?November 12, 2021 2:34 pm at 2:34 pm #2027606
I hear you but I believe you are wrong about your illustration of the present Exchange. Unfortunately I am driving I will have to get back to youNovember 12, 2021 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #2027616
Syag, please don’t text and drive.November 12, 2021 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #2027620PekakParticipant
To the OP
Lubavitch is bo less guilty than anybody else. For them the only true achdus is all of Klal Yisroel being Lubavitchers. Leave is alone and maybe we’ll leave you alone.November 12, 2021 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #2027623☕️coffee addictParticipant
“Do realize that no matter how polite people are trying to sound, theft are, after all, attacking a community along with their Rebbe, who they hold most dear and holy. This is not simply a disagreement. They are being accused of going against the Torah, of heresy, and of not being Jewish. Saying it with a smile doesn’t help.“
When a person in such community sticks up his middle finger when a gadol b’yisrael’s name is mentioned
When that community considers themselves “frummer” for no reason whatsoever they are in essence doing the same thingNovember 13, 2021 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #2027735
@Pekak I don’t see why you think lubavitchers think that you have to be lubavitch to have achdus.
I feel you just made that up on the spot. Maybe you can tell me one important person that said that?November 13, 2021 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #2027747Shimon NodelParticipant
Define a achdus. Is it the way Biden defines unity?
Also, why do you you assume that achdus is the only thing stopping the geulah?November 13, 2021 9:36 pm at 9:36 pm #2027768
Joe Biden is a silly old nutcase who has no clue what anything means. He does not define unity correctly.
Achdus is not the only thing that’s stopping the geulah, but when we have Achdus when we’re not fighting silly, baseless arguments, everything else will come with it. (That’s my view, if you object then that’s fine.)November 13, 2021 9:55 pm at 9:55 pm #2027781
TS, ask any expatriate or someone like me who has had dealings with their missionaries who they send all over non-chabad communities on yat kislev, Purim, simchas torah and other times. Take a look at their internal educational material. Do your own research and you’ll see that to chabad, you’re not good enough if you’re not at least somewhat involved in chasidus, preferably chabad itself.November 13, 2021 10:20 pm at 10:20 pm #2027785
” to Chabad, you’re not good enough if you’re not at least somewhat involved in chasidus”
Wot? Then why was there no chassidus for thousands of years? did you do your research on that Avira?November 13, 2021 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #2027788Shimon NodelParticipant
I think the underlying issue that’s stopping mashiach is akshanus. That has been our problem since the beginning. If we are all b’achdus, but people don’t listen to musar then all the other aveiros won’t just disappear.November 13, 2021 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #2027784
avira and syag. I dont care if your Chabad or not i still have a chiyuv to have an ahava towards you as a yid. Chabadniks aren’t better then litvaks but they have a different derech in avoides Hashem. reform and conservatives aren’t considered derochim in yidishkeit. Lubavitchers don’t want everyone to be Lubavitch, that’s a bunch of buba meisis.
The reason why the Rebbe was against giving a way land for piece is because it was giving a way land without the piece aspect. It never helped and in certain cases it can be pikuach nefesh.November 13, 2021 11:09 pm at 11:09 pm #2027800
I never accused chabad of not having ahavah to other jews. They do. They also think that they are superior and thar chasidus, especially chabad chasidus, is the only true Torah path. They refer to things that glorify their movement as a kiddush chabad, and things that make it look bad as a chilul chabad. To them their movement is Judaism, one and the same. No other part of klal yisroel looks at themselves this way.
Like i said, I’m not trying to convince anyone to listen to me – do your own research and look past the “love every Jew (and never marry them if you’re a gazan!) part and look at what they have to say about other groups of jews. Have a discussion with a lubavitcher and see if they don’t try to link wherever you come from to chabad. Read their educational material (not the kiruv stuff). Talk to some lubavitcher bochurim. Puk chazi!
Also, chabad has plenty of answers as to farbys question about what jews did until chasidus. They say that the earlier generations didn’t need it / it wasn’t the time for hisgalus hakabalah. I actually agree with this to an extent, that the rishonim didn’t see kabalah seforim for the most part, but Hashem knows that klal yisroel needed some aspects of kabalah to be accessible for later generations. Where they go off is that they’ll say that the lubavitcher rebbe was greater than the rambam because the former learned kabalah…. it’s disturbing but you’ll definitely hear it.November 13, 2021 11:52 pm at 11:52 pm #2027807
Avira I breathe Chabad air for 17 years I have been researching.
“he’ll say that the Lubavitcher Rebbe was greater than the rambam because the former learned kabalah” I have never heard a lubavitcher comparing a tzadik to another tzadik.November 14, 2021 12:31 am at 12:31 am #2027863
Can anyone explain why Lubavitchers, whether Meshichists or non-Meshichists, believe that the last Lubavitcher Rebbe is more likely to be the Moshiach than the Rebbe Rayatz, Rashab, Baal HaTanya, the Baal Shem Tov, the Chasam Sofer, the Noda B’Yehuda, Rashi or Rashbi is likely to be Moshiach?November 14, 2021 8:24 am at 8:24 am #2027987
cause they where the moshiach of their generation. Every generation has a moshiach. they believe that he is the moshiach of this generation.November 14, 2021 10:51 am at 10:51 am #2028006philosopherParticipant
Rightwriter, of course Reform and Conservative have achdus. They accept non-Jews which make up a large persentage of their membership, perhaps even the majority of all members today are non-Jews. They are accept liberal LGTBQs which a big percentage of them are. Their permissiveness and acceptance of people’s lifestyle has created mamzeirim (another reason why I am against kiruv in these days).November 14, 2021 1:31 pm at 1:31 pm #2028105
Farby, why would they be assumed to be the moshiach of their generation if you truly think that all parts of klal yisroel have equal authenticity and are equally beloved by Hashem? Why would Rav Moshe feinstein not be the moshiach of his generation? Or the gerrer rebbe? Or rav betzion abba shaul? You just admitted to a lubavitcher superiority complex.November 14, 2021 1:31 pm at 1:31 pm #2028106
Philosopher, they have achdus because all of them hold pretty much the same way about the issues that are most important to them. They all believe in LGBT, but they may differ on say, davening in Hebrew or English. So a conservative can accept a reform davening in Hebrew, but would never accept an orthodox who’s anti LGBT, because achdus only goes so far as the point where you start caring about an issue, then it’s discrimination and excommuniation time!November 14, 2021 1:32 pm at 1:32 pm #2028114
Do reform give Bris Milas? According to Halachah? Are they foresure yidden?
The ones who started it were nebachdike yidden (who were reshaim, they’re still nebach) and by today’s generation all are intermarried you don’t know if they (and they’re children) are jewish or not.
ober chochom was prob talking about frum yidden. I agree mostly with what he was saying.November 14, 2021 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #2028150☕️coffee addictParticipant
“Philosopher, they have achdus because all of them hold pretty much the same way about the issues that are most important to them. They all believe in LGBT, but they may differ on say, davening in Hebrew or English. So a conservative can accept a reform davening in Hebrew, but would never accept an orthodox who’s anti LGBT, because achdus only goes so far as the point where you start caring about an issue, then it’s discrimination and excommuniation time!“
Are you saying that only frum Jews are anti LGBT? What about Mark Levin (just to name one)?
I think the two don’t go hand in handNovember 14, 2021 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #2028217
Coffee, mark Levine and other conservatives (who are not as ardently anti LGBT as we are – they don’t believe it to be a capital offense and many are alright with civil unions) are not appreciated by reform and conservative rabbis/congregations at all – they constantly berate conservatives and think that they’re all like alex jones.November 14, 2021 10:44 pm at 10:44 pm #2028326
“Farby, why would they be assumed to be the moshiach of their generation if you truly think that all parts of klal yisroel have equal authenticity and are equally beloved by Hashem”
Whos They? All Lubavitchers or a minority who never saw the rebbe Ztl?November 14, 2021 11:24 pm at 11:24 pm #2028334
AviraDeArah, you are equating two unequal things. To take your ideas very seriously, to the extent that you’ll want to convince everyone else of its worth is not at all the same as saying that you’re better than everyone.
If you say that the בעל שם טוב was Zoche to a special illuminating path, and that your Rebbes have perfected it, and that now you’d want to spread that idea to all עובדי השם, is that really the same as being stuck up and proud?
You can use that to make yourself proud, if you are so inclined, but you can also go about it without doing so.
As I said earlier, the issue is mostly about semantics. The underlying ideas are not that unique. Even the Moshiach idea is not completely unique. When you revere a Tzaddik, and see him as someone who, if given the chance, would set everything right, then you <u>think to yourself</u> that he would be a perfect candidate for Moshiach. This has its basis in the Gemara (נחמן שמו, ינון שמו). Even Tosafos used משי”ח as a acronym for one בעל תוספות, and it obviously wasn’t a mistake.
Now, Lubavitch took this and ran with it, which raised the collective eyebrow. Where, in other places, individuals would entertain a certain thought, in Lubavitch it was broadcasted and expounded upon. This is likely due to their tendency to explain and spell out many other things.
Bottom line, it’s the terminology, enthusiasm, emphasis and style which irks people. If you can see past that, you can find some common ground.November 15, 2021 12:56 am at 12:56 am #2028339
Halevi – you’re the first to articulate a defense for some of what we see from chabad, and i appreciate it. I can only be confirmed by emotional tirades so much before it gets boring, so thank you!
I don’t think the two ideas are unequal. If a person lived in an area where there were no computers, learned about them from a tech professional who happened to be travelling by, and wanted to share his newfound knowledge with his brethren, that is not superiority. Imagine if everyone in the town were already using computers, and he found one that he felt was a better model than what everyone else had. He undertook to teach the town how to use the model he believed to be better. But the townspeople weren’t interested, because to them, the new one wasn’t any better than the old one. Still, the townsman had a valid point, but think of an outsider who doesn’t even know what kind og computers the town is using were to come in and try to get everyone to use his type of computer. He’s assuming arrogantly that he alone knows what’s best and that it’s not possible that the town has a system that even is close to being as good as his. If he didn’t feel that way, he wouldn’t travel about from place to place trying to push his computer.
What chabad is doing is not sharing, because the other “towns” already have “computers” which they’ve been successfully using for generations. To try and get people to their ways is assuming that they don’t already have something good enough for them.
Re, moshiach; if someone privately thinks that their rebbe was a candidate for moshiach, that wouldn’t bother me. But they should understand that their rebbe is one among many others. The world doesn’t revolve around them, and in terms of influence among orthodox jews, the lubavitcher rebbe was not in the top 3 of post-war influential figures. Not by a long shot. The effects of rav moshe, rav aharon, the satmar rov, and others were far greater among the already religious.November 15, 2021 8:42 am at 8:42 am #2028410
I like what Haleivi is saying and I do agree that people should keep their opinion of the lubavitvcher rebbe being moshiach mostly to themselves, but what Avira said at the end is not correct.
The rebbe, first of all, has published teachings that fill more than 300 volumes (!). He set the basis and planted the seed for thousands of shluchim, and many more to come. He made tens of thousands of Baalei Teshuvah, set up hundreds of schools, and worked to spread Torah and Frum Yidden to the Arbah Kanfos Ha’aretz.
After the halocaust, the jewish world was becoming worse by the day. People were coming to America, only to go off the derech, they was getting proper jewish eductions (not everyone was in lakewood, in fact there were very little frum yidden in lakewood at the time), and everything would of collapsed.
Enter: the lubavitcher rebbe. Starting from his Nesius on Yud Shevat, he was pushing and calling for Yeshivos, batei midrashim & batei kenesios to be open. He never stopped, until Hakadosh Baruch Hu decided that the Yidden no longer deserved to have him.
I will not put down any other tzadikim or gedolim, but if anyone knows how much the lubavitcher rebbe did then you kind of know that he was on the top 3.November 15, 2021 9:38 am at 9:38 am #2028430
They Lubavitcher Rebbe was definitely one of the top three in Kiruv.November 15, 2021 10:36 am at 10:36 am #2028453Yserbius123Participant
@ts-baum Not to Chas v’Shalom diminish the numerous accomplishments of Rav MM Schneerson ZT”L, but you have a very “Chabad-centric” view of Yiddishkeit. After the Churban in Europe Hashem sent numerous gedolim to the US to help bring Yidden back up to our feet. The Satmar Rebbe Reb Yoel ZT”L, Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L, the Alter Vizhnitzer Rebbe ZT”L, Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky ZT”L. I don’t want to start an olympics about which post-war Rav was more influential, but Chabadskers kind of have this tendency to ignore everyone except their late Rebbe and pretend that there would have been no Torah in America without him.
(also 300 volumes isn’t that impressive when there’s a huge team of people who did nothing for decades but write down and publish every thing he said and wrote, long past his petirah. Kol HaMarbeh bi’seforim etc.)
Slight editNovember 15, 2021 1:30 pm at 1:30 pm #2028514
TS, I was careful in my post to stress that he was not in the top tier of influencers among the already religious. He did a lot for kiruv, that i agree with, but the fact that there is an infrastructure and a thriving community of observant jews is the result of others’ work.
By the time the lubavitcher rebbe became rebbe (nasi? Of who? He’s not my nasi. Some chabad chasidim also didn’t accept him, such as Rav Nesanel Quinn) there already existed numerous important organizations. Agudah, tzeirei, young israel, the OU, Torah umesorah, and many others. When he became rebbe, there already were many yeshivos, chadorim and beis yaakovs. Torah umesorah was already involved in its herculean efforts to establish day schools across the country. Yeshivos included Torah vodaas, chofetz chaim, yeshiva of Brooklyn, chaim berlin, bais hatalmud, Mir, breuers ( i should have mentioned rav yosef breur in my list earlier) yeshiva university and its schools, etz chaim cheder, yeshiva of eastern parkway, yeshivas rabbeinu yaakov yosef (RJJ), the many chasidish/oberlander mosdos of the bluzhever rebbe, the satmar rov, rav yonsan shteif, bobov,, and many others were at near full capacity.
To say that he came to an empty landscape and established lubavitch schools in a place where there were no others is false, and myopic. It’s a part of chabad mythology where the lubavitcher rebbe is the central figure of the Jewish world when he in fact occupied a relatively modest position in its leadership.November 15, 2021 10:58 pm at 10:58 pm #2028750Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
Yserbius, a minor correction – RR Kaminetsky, Feinstein, Soloveichik came to US before the war. And by looking at current communities, it is hard to appreciate how manhy shuls and schools operated in 1930-50s working with Yidden many of whom lost a lot of tradition. What is true, many of these communities with time became more insular and less interested in reaching those who were not. And also true, that assimilated Jews are moving further away, so Chabad is indeed working with different types of people (Berdichever talking to a guy smoking on shabbos – this is maybe 2nd son from Hagada, intellectuals attracted to early YU – third, and students that Chabad finds now is 5th or 6th …). Also, Chabad was able to sustain this energy over time via their organizational focus. On the other hand, as mentioned, some less-educated Chabadnikim are not aware what else happened in the world and behave accordingly.November 16, 2021 8:34 am at 8:34 am #2028858
The fact is that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is more alive then some other gedoilim because what other gedoilim accomplished was mainly during their life but they managed amazing accomplishments. the Rebbe on the other hand had the most influence after he was nistalek. His influence after his passing was not matched, he is up there with Harav Schapiro when it comes to legacies.November 16, 2021 9:26 am at 9:26 am #2028887
Farby, so… American halacha standards, kashrus, yeshivos, kollelim, educated baalei batim, bais yaakovs, massive communities with full infrastructure…. all of this was only in the lifetime of the gedolei yisroel and it all stopped when they were niftar?
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