- This topic has 82 replies, 24 voices, and was last updated 5 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
You are correct. So for the rally to be a success their presence was not needed. Indeed, they had 290,000 people there without the Chareidi oilam, much larger than the siyum hashas.
290,000 is another figure pulled out of a hat. Where did it come from? Not from the DC police. It’s about as accurate as Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan’s so-called “Million Man March”, also in Washington, DC, really had a million million blacks attending.
Marxist,
You do realize that it wasn’t 290,000 Jews, right?
I mean the number came from the organizer, Jewish Federations of North America who helped coordinate transportation for many of the participants. They also payed for metro cards for rally goers so they probably had a good estimate of the number of people that showed up.
It should be noted that reportedly, at least a large amount of those assembled “gave an amen” to an evangelical pastor who requested it. A pastor whose religion teaches that most of those assembled and everyone on this forum is condemned for all eternity for not accepting their mangod.
I’m sorry that you think that you and your piers make up “klal Yisrael” to the exclusion of every Jew who doesn’t fit into the bubble. Should you wish to expand your definition of what makes a Jew you will find that nothing about that letter says that the Rally will be negative for Klal Yisrael. Each of your 4 points are reasons why certain people should not attend, it says nowhere that the event will have negative results for klal Yisrael, unless, again, you think that you are all of klal Yisrael. And just to stress again, daat torah is not limited to these Rabbis. Even if they expressly stated that No Jew should attend because it would be negative and that every Jew should learn instead, like you pompously claimed, your case would not be rested. KLAL YISRAEL IS NOT LIMITED TO YOU AND YOUR ILK.
Joseph,
Let’s review. The Agudah originally released a statement encouraging people to attend the rally. The majority of Gedolim on the Moetzes did not sign-on with their colleagues who later forbade going. None of those who signed that letter have been accepted by the entire Klal as “Posek America”. Unless one’s personal Da’as Torah is one of those against going, there was no reason not to attend and thousands correctly did so.
Live your life the way you always have and feel free to make up your own religion. For the rest of us, things aren’t automatically forbidden unless specifically stated as such by those in authority to do so.
yeshiva bouchurim best shmira is learning
what was the point of rallyisrael gain ed from it didi america send israel more?
i live in israel every rocket israel sends to gaza causes more hatred in the world anti jews especially anti israel a rally without a normal propgman for frum jews is a bizyan hatatah
,america is fullPS it is indeed tricky to be at an event where you show unity with other people and people from other religions. So, if some of the “talmidei chachamim” “yodiim hilchos avoda zara” were there, they could have advised otheryidden when and when to to answer “amen”. When you were grasping your head in pain near your laptop, nobody noticed.
> None of the Gedolim on the Moetzes
I referred to the official moetses statement that was discussed here that admitted a need to have many people at the rally. I am not even mentioning all Rabonim in different cities, including mine, that led the delegations.
user > you think that you and your piers make up “klal Yisrael”
I think this summarizes well why most of us here are responding to this. At the moment when everyone is striving for unity, it is very annoying to see people with a pretense of being “the klal” and exclude everyone else.
Avira > “gave an amen” to an evangelical pastor
interesting, you join ” ‘Jews’ for ‘Peace’ ” in this attitude.
I recall R Soloveichik paskened that we should avoid any “ecumenical” discussions with other religions – even when Vatican was “doing teshuva” and fixing their attitudes towards Jews. Good that they do it – but we don’t have to be there and be grateful for them to doing the right thing. At the same time, it is OK to join them to resolve world social and political problems, not necessarily Jewish. Kal vahomer, when it is in defense of Jews. So, bringing an influential speaker with tens of millions followers was certainly a win, despite liberal and purist annoyance.
I did not hear what exactly he wanted to be omeined to. I think halacha is that we don’t answer a partial brocha from a non-Jew as we do not know who and for what he is thanking. It seems to follow that you do answer if the bracha is appropriate. What did he actually say?
AAQ:/Dofi The original Aguda letter was NOT from the Moetzes. It was from the laymen/executive office of the Agudah. It was very pareve and didn’t tell anyone to go, just that it would be nice for a large turnout. It said they asked their Rabbonim, but didn’t specify which Rabbonim that was. Previously, that meant, in the singular, just the Novominsker, who was the Rosh Agudah, before he was niftar.)
I had one of the members of the Moetzes in my car on Tuesday and asked him. He told me that the decision was for people not to go. (I then asked him about the Agudah executive office letter, but I then realized he fell asleep by that time.)
Joseph,
Please cite which Moetzes members, by name, you are alleging decided for people not to go, along with producing any evidence you have of a signed letter to such effect.
mod > about frivolous comments about great people
My run of being unmodded ended so soon after the rosh hodesh! I absolutely meant the esteemed posters who insist that a letter signed by hamesha rabonim is halocha l’Moshe misinai, not the rabbonim who have the right, and even obligation, to make their opinion known to their followers.
As to the posters, they testified that they had great people sleeping in their car, but does it make them also a great people?! Anyway, it is an anonymous eid ehad testifying about themselves.
Hope he was not the driver.
To be pedantic, OP didn’t specify yeshiva’s name. He probably meant bmg given signatures on the letter edited, for your benefit.
@AAQ, your contempt of daas torah is well know so what cares what your “thoughtful” take on this is.
Dofi: Here’s the letter you asked me for:
UPDATED – ADDITIONAL GEDOLIM SIGN KOL KOREI: “Bnei Torah Should Not Attend Washington Rally”
Names and signatures are on it, as per your request.
The gemara, brought in shu”a, says that when you hear half of a bracha made by a kusi, you don’t answer amen (we’re talking about brochos, shehakol, birkas hashavhar…) because he might have directed the bracha at Har Grizim. This is because it is known that some kusim believe in Hashem, but many are believers in shituf, as far as i know.
Evangelicals believe in the Trinity. There’s no doubt who they’re referring to when making blessings. But I’m not talking about blessings here – Christian speakers like to have their audience respond Amen to statements that they make which they want affirmation of. I believe the pastor said something he wanted a show of support for, but to use the word Amen to an idolator in a public mass gathering of Jews is a chilul Hashem. Having him speak at all is also a chilul Hashem.
Joseph,
Stop playing games. You know as well as everyone that most of the Gedolim did not forbid attending. Those that signed are not individuals whose Psak must be adhered to by all frum Jews in this country.
Back up your claim that “the decision was for people not to go”, implying that it came from the entire Moetzes by providing a letter signed by all or even most them. Otherwise, please keep your made-up religion to yourself.
On the local news here they showed girls from a Charedi school holding up signs identifying the school they were from. Not all Charedi schools stayed away.
common, I am not sure why you are pursuing me repeatedly. I’m interested in your advice. My DT told me 30 years that there is no DT in gemora. And confirmed last week when I quoted this discussion to him. What do I do within the DT methodology? This is a human version of the question “can the Omnipotent create a stone that he cannot move”.
Avira, yes, OC 215 seems to have Rema saying the opposite, and more of a discussion later on. Also, an argument whnether kuti here is a substitute for a non-Jew or a min in general. Sh’A harav has a discussion of a min, probably a code word for a christian. Bottom line, attendees of such rallies should have halachik guidance in advance on when and how to respond. In my humble experience dealing with friendly and helpful people from other religions, they do not engage in sneaking their brochos into conversation. Those who do are obnoxious l’hathila.
But all Sh’A discussions are about literally blessings. What about answering amen or other types of agreement with reasonable statement (I presume that is what it was as you are not taking an issue with his statement).
Someone comes to you and says “Am Yisroel Hai”, can you answer Amen? Yes? Sure? Does amen carry any implication of religious unity between parties? If yes, is it because we give significance in this word, or because preachers use this language?
As to a bigger issue – I understand R Soloveichik paskened that cooperation on religious issues is osur, but ok and desired on social issues. It appears from the above that more guidance is required when actually implemnting such policy. Can someone ask these questions from the poskim that supported the rally?
@AAQ, you were very open in your contempt for people who follow their daas torah especially during covid, I have zero problem with someone who is consistent in his/her belief even if it opposite then mine. Where I have an issue is after the amount of ridicule that you heaped on people who followed daas torah to turn around and say they must do x [in this case go to a rally] because daas torah says so is the ultimate in hypocrisy and hubris.
I don’t think kutim were suspected of shituf, rather of straight Avoda Zora. You may get such impression because kutim may be used as euphemism for christians
The rearm why people are making such a big deal is pretty clear. Because it reminds them that the true Torah hashkafa is not to go and of course it eats them up to on end
Aaq, i think the fact that the gemara says that we’re concerned that he directed his bracha to Har Grizim indicates that we’re talking about actual kusim, who worshipped the mountain.
Im not sure it’s a question of shituf or a question of which kusim believed in complete avodah zara. Either way, all evangelicals believe in avodah zara, which is different from kusim, because some clearly would make brachos to Hashem Himself.
My voice, I think you misunderstood, maybe because you are focused on the rally and not the reason behind it. When whole am Israel is in pain, it is double painful to see a group that doesn’t join. If you hold that you have access to the only correct hashkofa, then you should be the first to organize the way you think is correct and then urge others to join. And don’t tell me you are doing learning instead. Whn yeshivos need government funding, they go to politicians, not to Yom iyun as far as I know. Chofetz Chaim met with polish politicians and many gedolim went to Petersburg on 19th century
I don’t think kutim mamash worshipped the mountain, it s where their temple was. This would not be AZ, but their other beliefs at different times might have been. As we see even from gemora, we classify them according to the facts of the day. Anyway, I agree here that participants needed halachik guidance to deal with this, not sure whether they had it on hand. The response you heard could have been coming from the non-religious participants
Even the few Rabbonim who approved the initial pareve letter from the Agudah saying it is okay to attend the Washington rally last week Tuesday, officially withdrew that permission to attend, once they learned what the rally was really all about.
They, too, then said it was forbidden to attend:
READ IT: Rav Aharon Feldman Shlit”a Responds To Massive Controversy Surrounding Pro-Israel March
Joseph,
Nothing new here and you’re still playing childish games. This letter from Harav Feldman, Shlita on his personal stationary explains why he withdrew his support at the last minute on Tuesday morning. It does not purport to speak for anyone else on the Moetzes. You still can’t provide any proof to your claim that all or even most of them were against attending.
You also falsely implied the Moetzes had nothing to do with the initial letter yet Harav Feldman clearly writes, “the Moetzes approved sending out flyers to the Agudah mailing list announcing the event and its importance”.
Once again, please keep your lies and made-up religion to yourself.
a couple of weeks passed – any updates on any public events being organized the right way by those who objected to the arrangements at the rally?
Yes, many learning initiatives were implemented, B”H
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.