November 12, 2023 7:23 am at 7:23 am #2238797BlueskyParticipant
With all the extreme Anti-semitism and huge Pro-Hamas rally’s around the world especially in the tri-state area I think it’s very important and a big Kiddush Hashem for everyone to come out and participate on Tuesday to show support for Israel and stand against Antisemitism. We need a big turnout. The politicians will watching and the world will be watching. Why aren’t girl schools and yeshiva’s participating?November 12, 2023 8:54 am at 8:54 am #2238865Thoughtful ResponseParticipant
That’s not how we fight a war. We fight by sitting in the Bais Medrash and crying Tehillim.
Don’t get me wrong, the rally is a good thing, but not for those who sit and learn all day and certainly not for out tzidkoniousim and young girls.November 12, 2023 9:20 am at 9:20 am #2238873
@OP, here is a direct quote from you on a different thread you started “As Yidden, we know that no effort is more critical or more effective than tefillah, davening to Hashem for Siyata diShmaya”
That is your answer.November 12, 2023 9:22 am at 9:22 am #2238872smerelParticipant
>>>That’s not how we fight a war. We fight by sitting in the Bais Medrash and crying Tehillim.
Nu, So how much more of that have YOU been doing since the war started? I’m not disagreeing with you. I just don’t get the sense that those most of those who oppose the rally on the grounds of “we fight by more learning and crying Tehilim” are actually doing so to any great degree. There are in fact many people who are doing so. But they aren’t the ones who are hocking online about how this is not the way we do thingsNovember 12, 2023 9:23 am at 9:23 am #2238856shomershabbatParticipant
Go into http://www.hefkervelt .com and read Rav Aharon Feldman’s Shlita stance on Bnei Yeshiva not going. He does encourage Baalei Batim to go. Bais Yaakov Baltimore girls high school is going.November 12, 2023 1:16 pm at 1:16 pm #2238881
Those that are old enough remember 1987 when the big rally for Soviet Jewry ended with Yeshiva bochurim & Bais Yaakov Maidlach mixed dancing.
That’s when the Rabbanim co-opted the term “Never Again”November 12, 2023 1:16 pm at 1:16 pm #2238890meir GParticipant
all the chofetz chaim yeshivos & kollelim are going in the end many more are goingNovember 12, 2023 1:16 pm at 1:16 pm #2238912
What is the source for Yidden only sitting in beis midrash and davening. In 1943, there was a march of rabbis on Washington that lead to creation of war refugee board. The event was condemned by assimilated jews.
Chofetz Chaim talked to various Polish politicians. Tannaim went to Rome. Moshe rabbeinu went to Pharaoh. Even Yaakov did.November 12, 2023 1:16 pm at 1:16 pm #2238922
The real question is only why aren’t all those people planning to go to the Washington rally instead go to the Beis Medrash for six hours (the travel time plus rally time they’d otherwise spend).
Going to the Beis Medrash will have positive effects for Klal Yisroel in the war. Going to the rally will not.November 12, 2023 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #2238991doom777Participant
Can you name a war we won with only davening, and no hishtadlus?November 12, 2023 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm #2238994
> big rally for Soviet Jewry ended with Yeshiva bochurim & Bais Yaakov Maidlach mixed dancing
And it ended up with a million Yidden getting their freedom. Some gedolim didn’t approve these activities lehathila not because mixed dancing but because they were afraid of soviet response both towards the activists and increasing regressions inside ussr. At the same time, a friend of mine asked a Sheila in Baltimore whether open action is OK v. traditional shtadlanus and the answer was: we don’t have a preference for specific way of politics. If quiet ways worked in olden times, and demonstrations work in our times , we do what works.November 12, 2023 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm #2238995
So rabbonim who went to meet fdr, and he sneaked out, wasted their time from learning. Take your hevrusa and a sefer on the bus and learn at the rally. Maybe teach some of the other participants. Mitzvos related to eretz Israel.November 12, 2023 9:40 pm at 9:40 pm #2239010follick2Participant
My daughter’s school is going to the rally.November 12, 2023 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm #2239013
UJM, I guess your idea of travel is taking a break from learning? For many, 10 hours traveling is many more hours learning they they would have been able to otherwise. The real question is how can people speak negatively about showing support for Israel in a way that will most definitely make a difference. It’s tiring to hear the same people who constantly make rifts in am Yisrael once again rising to the occasion to divide and speak down on others during this time of supposed “unprecedented unity.” The real question you need to ask YOURSELF is what have YOU done. Frankly, no one needs to know that answer besides you, and you need not comment on others answer. Don’t be the person who won’t accept Mashiah if he doesn’t align perfectly with his Hashkafa. And if you say, “we’ll that’ll never happen because my Hashkafa…” that should tell you something.November 12, 2023 10:26 pm at 10:26 pm #2239035
It is just 3 hours frm Lakewood to DC or maybe 2 with a typical driverNovember 12, 2023 10:59 pm at 10:59 pm #2239059
Good luck during the day on a bus making it from Lakewood to DC in 3 hours (google maps has it at nite as over 3 hours).
The only major Frum communities where it’s not a big shlep are Baltimore & Silver Spring.November 12, 2023 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #2239058
It is important to note that so far, despite all the commentary, not one person, not one, has yet explained how this rally will save even one Jewish life.
Will Hamas stop their terrorism if they see such a big rally?
If instead of 25,000 people showing up to this rally, 35,000 people show up, will a second Jewish life somehow be saved? How will a bigger rally save more lives than a smaller rally? Let alone, how will any rally save even one life.November 13, 2023 12:19 am at 12:19 am #2239074
UJM, has it ever occurred to you that there is a reason people protest? That they aren’t just fools with nothing to do? The original post literally have six reasons why it’s important: 1) to counter the many pro Hamas rallies. 2) it’s a kiddush Hashem to all come out together. 3) to show support for Israel. 4) to stand against anti-semitism. 5) the politicians will be watching. 6) the world will be watching. Would you notice the difference if 35000 showed up to the Siyum Hashas instead of 25000? The larger the number the more people notice and take note. Politicians care about public opinion. Thousands of pro Hamas rallies are taking place. We can’t do that. But we can have a massive rally where we show how much support for israel exists in this country and why they should care. US support for Israel saves Jewish lives. Aside for the fact that it’s a March of Jewish unity, an incredibly important aspect of these times, when our unified voice will play a vital role in our tefilot to Bore Olam. The fact that some of us choose to remain parush from the tzibbur and even belittle what they are doing is not a favorable way to stand before Hashem.November 13, 2023 12:20 am at 12:20 am #2239076GadolHadofiParticipant
Vital U.S. support for Israel in its war against Hamas, especially from elected officials, is tenuous and depends on votes. When our enemies can muster tens of thousands to D.C. who angrily demand an end to this support, a counter rally must bring even more voices in order for this support to continue. Davening and learning are unquestionably our weapons. Yet due to the “great concern about the extremely volatile political climate here in the United States”, organizations such as Agudah “feel it is important, midarchei ha’shtadlonus, that there be a large turnout at this event”.
It’s not hard to understand.November 13, 2023 9:56 am at 9:56 am #2239208
The Gemara talks about as the generation goes on different kings went less to war until chizkiyah (I think) said I’ll sing your praises and you’ll fight for us
Can’t remember where the Gemara isNovember 13, 2023 12:02 pm at 12:02 pm #2239224GadolhadorahParticipant
Some are going, some not. Its going to involve 10-12 hours of RT travel to D.C. (including local travel in NYC and metro from D.C. bus drop offs to the mall and back). For those ehrliche idiots who worry about “yeshiva bochurim dancing with BY maidlach” on the mall as they allegedly did 40 years ago in a Soviet Jewry rally, I’d say get your heads screwed on and get them out of the gutter. The rally is to show support and solidarity for our brothers and sisters in EY after the butchery of October 7th…..I don’t think anyone attenting this rally is thinking about this a some sort of yeshivish Spring Break in NovemberNovember 13, 2023 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #2239311CentristParticipant
ever stop and wonder why the soldiers in gaza dont join the rally? if you think that taking away from talmud torah is a good idea, you need a quick hashkafah check. @doom77, you ask which war was won with just davening. i dont know and i never will know, because those wars were prevented in the first place. dont be so arrogant to think you know everything. and to the idiots who think that me posting online means i am not learning, there is something called bain hasdarim where we take an hour and a half to eat lunch and prepare for second seder, and defend klal yisroel from frum anti semites in this forum. the topic should be, “is this rally productive, and how can we use it to spread torah learning?”
for those that think the yeshiva world has stayed the same since the begginnig of the war, i will say this: being out of yeshiva so long has removed you from the yeshiva world. there is a tremendous amount of hizchazkus in the yeshiva world. far more has been done than this one rally. @gadolhadorah, you must let go of such negative feelings towards frum yidden, it can be doing us tremendous damge, because the sinas chinam that destroyed the bais hamikdash still prevents it from being builtNovember 13, 2023 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #2239313Amil ZolaParticipant
How modest will it be for a frum woman to join in a public demonstration? Will there be separate areas for women and men? I’m presuming the busses will be segregated.November 13, 2023 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #2239377
Presumably, it will be totally mixed, as nothing about that has been mentioned. Anyways, frum women do not belong at rallies – kol kevuda bas melech penima.November 13, 2023 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #2239410Amil ZolaParticipant
HaKatan: so whats with schools sending their girls as noted by another poster above?November 13, 2023 10:14 pm at 10:14 pm #2239423Chaim87Participant
So far the only frum “speaker” is Isha. It doesn’t seem like they are even saying tehlim.
Yes, they are scheduled to do so- mod
i am not smart enough to say yes or no about attending. But I can understand why some may distance themselves. By the rabbis march, its was basiclly “kosher” with the rabbis in charge vs lady singers and others speaking.
My question is why the frum can’t unite and make a yom tefila in Manhatan with all yeshivas attending and all chasidim and litfish?November 13, 2023 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #2239425
Amil: No real Beis Yaakov is sending their girls.November 13, 2023 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #2239422
In regards to women, we probably can’t demand of them to go, but should accommodate them if they come. Same as the husband I obligated to support the wife financially in return for her wages, but she can reject the offer and work and keep her wages. Same with learning, nobody kicked out Beruriah from a class.November 13, 2023 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #2239419
To the question why the rally is needed
First, see the announcement from the collective daas Torah: they say it is beneficial. To the point: public opinion is one if the fronts of this war, not different from tunnels or sea or cyber. Public opinion in the west and in Arab countries will determine how much pressure will be on tzahal to avoid certain actions; whether other groups or countries will join. Etc. And each one battle may not be decisive but they are part of the whole.November 13, 2023 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm #2239416Aseh maat ve emor harbehParticipant
Every time there is an effort by the anti religious forces in Eretz Yisroel to attack Shabbos, kashrus, the kedusha of the Kosel Hamaaravi, etc, the anti religious leaders warn the government that if they resist, they will “alienate” the Jews of the diaspora, by which they mean American Jews, who they assume to be overwhelmingly secular and liberal. In reality, we know that although the frum Jews are still a minority of Jews in America, we are not a tiny minority like we used to be, and we are much more likely to have visited Israel and care about Jews in other countries (see the 2020 Pew study of you doubt this).
A large turnout of frum, and especially chareidi Jews at the march could help dispell this dangerous myth, and will בע”ה help our brothers in Eretz Yisroel see that America is full of frum Jews who care about all Jews everywhere and are willing to come to support them.November 13, 2023 10:56 pm at 10:56 pm #2239439GadolhadorahParticipant
“nobody kicked out Beruriah from a class…”
True, but she didn’t have to deal with some of the resident CR mycologistsNovember 14, 2023 12:41 am at 12:41 am #2239446
Nobody is forcing anyone to attend. It isn’t difficult to realize why it is beneficial. If it isn’t your speed you should understand that other Jews travel at a different speed. It should not be so hard to be supportive of the way others choose to contribute. Especially when it is heavily supported by religious organizations. Unless there is blatant transgression of Halacha no negative that comments necessary. If the only way you see this event is as “taking away from Talmud Torah” you’re just not understanding that this is an act of Hishtadlut. (Besides, what do you think yeshiva students are going to do in the bus? Watch movies? You don’t think there will be at least some Talmud Torah, Tehilim and singing to Bore Olam?)November 14, 2023 12:42 am at 12:42 am #2239295
Agudath Israel lobbies for Jewish interests. There’s your comparison to Rome and Egypt. That has nothing to do with a rally of thousands of Jews.
The march on Washington during WW II was by Rabbis and was for a very different purpose. This rally is sponsored by secular organizations and will be mixed, and is in support of the shmad State of the Zionists.November 14, 2023 12:42 am at 12:42 am #2239297
Yes, it is actually very hard to understand.
There are way more Muslims (whether Jew-hating or otherwise) and Jew-haters than there are Jews. If you think this is a numbers game, then it’s over before it started. That’s not the reason.
That “Due to the great concern” nonsense was from the secular organizations, not from Agudah; they just parroted/forwarded the email.
The rally poster lists three reasons to rally:
March for Israel, March to Free the Hostages and March against antisemitism.
This march will, of course, accomplish none of that (May Hashem please help all Jews immediately, regardless), and it is actually heretical to think that it could accomplish that last one. The first one is also a chilul Hashem, even if the intent is only to support our brethren there.November 14, 2023 7:52 am at 7:52 am #2239489
@AAQ, “First, see the announcement from the collective daas Torah: they say it is beneficial. ”
Every time you will use these words I will copy and paste the words where you openly mocked those who followed Dass Torah, you can’t mock it one hour, hold by it the next and mock it again an hour later.November 14, 2023 12:17 pm at 12:17 pm #2239579
> The march on Washington during WW II was by Rabbis and was for a very different purpose. This rally is sponsored by secular organizations
Exactly, during WW2, those non-observant Jews were afraid to show up and even counseled FDR to disregard the march. Can you imagine how those Rabonim felt being abandoned by fellow Jews in trying to save Jewish lives. Now, those other Jews finally showed up and we are now nitpicking on the speaker lineup.November 14, 2023 12:17 pm at 12:17 pm #2239580
common, I respectfully produce arguments that would work according to your shita. I also added arguments from sevorah. As I generally follow beis Hille, I put your position first and mine second.November 14, 2023 1:26 pm at 1:26 pm #2239607
“So far the only frum “speaker” is Isha. It doesn’t seem like they are even saying tehlim.
Yes, they are scheduled to do so- mod“
When? It’s not on the schedule! Who’s leading it?November 14, 2023 1:45 pm at 1:45 pm #2239610
@AAQ I don’t produce arguments, I have opinions and beliefs and they don’t change by the hour.November 14, 2023 1:46 pm at 1:46 pm #2239613November 14, 2023 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #2239686
I find this interesting compared to Trump’s Day of Prayer. A Rabbi from the Agudah sat through Xtian prayer after Xtian prayer (Our Lord JC, in the name of JC, etc.) as well as other religions that are possibly Avodah Zara as well as a Xtian Choir of men & women. This was approved by Rabbi S. Kamenetsky & there was no “last minute” declaration against it. This rally seems even more benign then that so why the last minute reversal?November 14, 2023 3:41 pm at 3:41 pm #2239688
“When? It’s not on the schedule! Who’s leading it?“
Seems like now (2:30) by ishay ribboNovember 15, 2023 1:21 pm at 1:21 pm #2240001
UJM you said that going to the rally will have no positive effect on klaf Yisrael. No where in the letter did it say anything like that.November 15, 2023 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #2240055
user: Right, they said much worse and stronger than I. The Gedolim wrote it would have a negative effect on Klal Yisroel, not just that it wouldn’t have a positive effect.November 15, 2023 9:43 pm at 9:43 pm #2240121
so, those (8 or all 13) moetses members who said that rally will be useful are not gedolim?November 15, 2023 9:45 pm at 9:45 pm #2240123
Not sure which letter you read but the one you rested your case in said no such thing. Besides the fact that there are shivim panim laTorah and a letter signed by a few Gedolim is not the end all be all. There were other Gedolim that remain in support of having gone. The fact that you think you’ve proven your point with a letter sharing your opinion just shows your arrogant approach to Judaism. With all due respect to these Talmide Chachamim, they are not the sole arbiters of Torah. It is your approach of elitism that holds back the Geula. You can learn Torah all day and it’s all worthless with an attitude that degrades anyone who think or acts differently.November 15, 2023 9:45 pm at 9:45 pm #2240124MarxistParticipant
I don’t understand why people care so much that the Yeshivish/Chareidi oilam isn’t participating. It’s not like that they are a large percentage of American Jewry today.November 16, 2023 1:19 am at 1:19 am #2240141MarxistParticipant
*didn’tNovember 16, 2023 1:21 am at 1:21 am #2240147
user: Which part of what the Gedolim wrote in their above signed letter are you having difficulty understanding?
In particular, to quote the Gedolim’s own words:
“its organizers and participants are not משלומי אמוני ישראל. And as is known, the opinion of our Rabbanim, z’tl whose mesorah we hold, warned us from joining with religious streams who are far from the Derech HaTorah and Mesorah. And especially after the speakers’ schedule of the rally was published, and it is known to all that the main speakers are a mixture of people whose entire essence is the opposite of Torah and yirah and tzninus, r’l. Since then, the matter is simple – we must distance ourselves from them and the masses.”
How many negative effect on Klal Yisroel can you count in just this small quoted portion of their letter? If your comprehension is poor, I’ll be more than glad to help you along. Some, but not limited to, of the negative effects cited by the Gedolim are:
1. Its organizers and participants are not משלומי אמוני ישראל.
2. Our Rabbanim, z’tl whose mesorah we hold, warned us from joining with religious streams who are far from the Derech HaTorah.
3. The main speakers are a mixture of people whose entire essence is the opposite of Torah and yirah and tzninus, r’l.
4. Since then, the matter is simple – we must distance ourselves from them and the masses.
Is that enough negative effects for Klal Yisroel for you, or do you need more?November 16, 2023 1:21 am at 1:21 am #2240148
AAQ: Which hat did you pull that out of? None of the Gedolim on the Moetzes expressed any support whatsoever to attend the rally. Please cite which ones, by name, you are alleging otherwise, along with producing any evidence you have of a signed letter to such effect.
Marxist: You can make the same point about the Orthodox, in general. 90% of American Jews are non-Orthodox.
And within Orthodoxy, the Chareidi oilam constitutes 66% of Orthodox Jews.
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