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Men can. We can’t.
Why?
A friend of mine recently took upon herself not to talk in the street on her phone as it causes “attention”. So? What do you mean, men can do it?! Everyone talks on the phone? I’m not trying to naveeveryone look at me! Why is it not okay for us to do things men do in the street, such as hug an old friend, get overly excited, talk on the phone, run, or pretty much do anything that isn’t walking with my mouth shut?
“Men can”
Who said?
“We can’t”
Who said?
Men and women are different. Not equal. Have different jobs in life. Different responsibilities. Different obligations. Different capabilities. Different roles. Different rules. Some things are for men and/or only men and some things are for women and/or only women. Not comparable. Some things men may not do and women may and some things women may not do and men may.
Tznius. Women aren’t supposed to draw unnecessary attention to themselves. Kol kevudah bas melech penimah. Women don’t gaze at men in the same way men gaze at women. The Skver chasidim are a pretty smart bunch on this issue.
I know people (men) that refuse to speak on a cellphone on a bus. Not because it’s assur, but because it’s a breach of privacy – tznius.
Equal doesn’t mean having the same roles. Equal means each contributing to their own responsibilities using there own characteristics.
Hatznea Leches wasnt addressed exclusively to females.
Don’t think of it as ‘allowed’ and ‘not allowed’, women and men. For a man OR a woman, is it refined to do all the things you list up there in public? Can you imagine the president or the queen doing those things in public? That’s the idea. Not making a big scene of yourself is just a refined way of behaving.
Do I agree women should not do these things according to halacha? No, I do these things all the time. Is it classy and elegant? No.
Shulchan Aruch EH 73:1: A woman should not go outside much. The beauty of a woman is to stay inside. Kol Kevudah Bas Melech Penima.
Rambam Ishus 13:11: it is degrading for a woman to always be outside and on the streets… The beauty of a woman is to stay inside. Kol Kevudah Bas Melech Penimah.
Hatzneh Haleches applies to men and women equally, while Kol Kevodah is specifically for women.
Sticking out in a crowd is an Hatzneh Haleches issue so the OP’s premise is flawed.
Shopping, it seems that your friend might have been infected with Talibanitis. Please get her some help before she buys a burka.
People dont realize how loudly they speak when theyre on the phone. uch louder than if they would be talking to the person nxt to them. i was once walking behind a girl and i heard all abt her date that she went on!
Why would anyone want to stick out in a crowd? Aren’t they concerned about ayin hara?
Catch yourself,
Shopping, it seems that your friend might have been infected with Talibanitis. Please get her some help before she buys a burka.
I see you’re not a fan of growing spiritually
This girl took it upon herself it wasn’t forced on her by anyone (as opposed to Muslims)
Shopping, it seems that your friend might have been infected with Talibanitis. Please get her some help before she buys a burka.
And if the friend does? That is after all the logical conclusion of Joseph’s points (assuming, as is logical, that staring at a tent is not staring at the Isha, and the Isha is “inside” when the Isha is within the Isha’s portable tent, just like staring at an apartment building which an Isha is within).
That being said, Noshim have an almost 5800 year old minhag to take non-halachic chumros upon themselves, starting from Adam’s Bashert not wanting to touch the Eitz HaDaas.
P.S. Not talking on your phone in the street is a wonderful thing for men and Noshim, and is a Kiym of “U’shmartem es Nafshosaychem”. Bezras Hashem your friend will be Mekayem “Mitoch Shelo Lishma Ba’ah Lidei Lishma”.
Finally, is your friend in Shidduchim? That usually explains these types of signals.
That being said, Noshim have an almost 5800 year old minhag to take non-halachic chumros upon themselves, starting from Adam’s Bashert not wanting to touch the Eitz HaDaas.
The problem wasn’t taking on the chumrah the problem was not realizing it was a chumrah and thought it was Halacha instead
“The problem wasn’t taking on the chumrah the problem was not realizing it was a chumrah and thought it was Halacha instead”
the problem was making up the chumra AND the corresponding punishment.
Because men can’t break their unrefined natures but women can act like princesses. Would you teach a donkey to read?
gavra_at_work- she’s getting married in a few weeks.
Going to Israel or Lakewood?
I could go all Freudian on you but won’t. Don’t be concerned.
That being said, men have a 5800 year old minhag of creating chumros for their wives (don’t touch the eitz hadaas). The problem is that there’s a real halacha that has to be followed.
Everyone’s soo frum!! They take on all of these stringencies and are better than everyone else. Do you really think Hashem cares if a girl talks on the phone in the middle of the street? Hashem wants to see ACHDUS(UNITY) amongst Jews. Hashem is sick of all of this infighting and sects and garbage
kfb
official spokesperson for Hashem
kfb
official spokesperson for Hashem
Is that a statement of fact or a suggestion for a subtitle?
Scared driver- it’s common sense
I thought that was Sam Klein.
The essence of each Mitzvah is transmitted, applied and explained to us by the Gedolei HaPoskim of each generation.
Just as they tell us the nature and practice of laying Tefilin, they explain to us what the appropriate guidelines for Tznius are for both men and women. We may not be sensitive to the subtly of their opinion, but must recall that Da’as Torah is developed from ten of thousands, and for an older Posek – hundreds of thousands, of hours toiling in Hashem’s Words. Our sentiment, however, is a product of our imperfect environment, media, social milieu and advertising.
In Orthodox Judaism policy decisions about Halachic practice, be it in Hilchos Pesach, Berachos, Shabbos or Tznius are the realm of the Gedolei HaPoskim and Da’as Torah.
AND
Why cant a girl be an actress or police officer.
I dont like the answer; be refined.
Leave my “refinment” and “dignity” for me to deal with.
Just tell me why not, according to halachah or at least according to minhag or mussar.
Gavra at work;
As for touching the tree, it Adam’s major mistake in telling her not to touch it, and not explaining that G’ said dont eat, and it was his own chumra “not to touch”.
It wasnt her chumra, it was wrongly imposed by Adam.
(Just saying)
KFB: You have to admit, that tznius plays a role. The only discussion is finding the limits. (That doesnt mean tznius people cant have achdus.)
“Just tell me why not, according to halachah or at least according to minhag or mussar.”
Maybe there isn’t any explicit halachah, minhag, or mussar.
Maybe it does have to do something with being refined.
Maybe even though you want to deal with it, Hashem might have some expectations of a particular community or individual as well.
HUH?
(To Birdsons reply)
Maybe there isn’t any explicit halachah, minhag, or mussar.
Maybe it does have to do something with being refined.
Maybe even though you want to deal with it, Hashem might have some expectations of a particular community or individual as well.
You can use this excuse to enact almost any rule.
@shopping, I meant it equally, using the queen (female) and the president (male) as examples to show that we all should be ‘refined’. MEN AND WOMEN. It’s nice that way, but I don’t believe it’s halacha. And like someone else brought up, making chumros into halacha has had VERY serious ramifications.
Don’t get me wrong, your friend is being wonderful by doing this, as long as she (and others around her for that matter) know it’s just a chumra
Are you saying there can’t be a king or a female president?
RebYidd….I don’t know if you’ve heard. Barack Obama is male while Queen Elizabeth is female.
Queen Elizabeth the II is really a figurehead, but Angela Merkel of Germany is one of the most powerful leaders on earth
So now the United States and England are the only countries in the world?
CA –
I am all for spiritual growth. However, I can not relate to the baseless, groundless, and unfounded “feel-good” emotional gestures which effect no real, lasting spiritual growth, but which consume much of the energy of many a well-meaning individual who seeks true advancement of character.
The impression I got from the OP was that her friend, without any guidance or direction by a Rebbe or other spiritual mentor, determined that talking on a cellphone in public is not within the parameters of tznius. It seemed to me also that this was implemented in a way which exuded a holier than thou attitude, as evidenced by the complaints of the OP.
Of course, I realize that she was not forced to act in this way. My point was that [based on my perception of the story] she seems to have adopted a very superficial and misguided approach to the concept of tznius, albeit altruistically. Please excuse my hyperbole; I was simply trying to make a point.
Gavra at work;
As for touching the tree, it Adam’s major mistake in telling her not to touch it, and not explaining that G’ said dont eat, and it was his own chumra “not to touch”.
It wasnt her chumra, it was wrongly imposed by Adam.
So you prefer to blame those such as Rabbi Falk and Sem teachers, who push these things on the unsuspecting? Or the girls who accept them?
Your choice.
My main question is really, why can bochurim talk on the phone loudly or run in the street and if women do so we are told it is untzuyisdik. It’s doesn’t seem to be equal. Bochurim can act like pigs and we are expected to act like princesses.
Real answer – The bochrim know better, so if someone told them something stupid, they would ask to see proof of it in Shulchan Aruch or Poskim, and then when that someone demurs, laugh the guy out of Bais Medrash. Noshim Daatan Kalos, and they are tought to accept what they are told, so they listen because “someone told them”.
I recall once discussing (different thread I know) the question of eating at young couples with my maggid Shiur. he was surprised by my right-wing views on it and asked where I got the Shitta from. I explained, in all innocence, that I just couldn’t understand why it was Ossur to talk to a call yesterday, but now she is married it’s Muttur?
My point being that individuals are different. What makes sense to one person makes little sense to another. Life just isn’t that straight forward. Life isn’t always about “Vos shteit.”
so, if someone describes a female as outstanding, would that be a negative?
Shopping613,
A friend of mine recently took upon herself not to talk in the street on her phone as it causes “attention”.
So? Why does that affect you? Do you feel like you have to do it now? What if your friend decided that purple was the most modest color, and took it upon herself to only wear purple outside?
What do you mean, men can do it?!
Who says? Maybe somewhere out there there is a man who took it upon himself to not talk on the phone in the street.
Why is it not okay for us to do things men do in the street, such as hug an old friend, get overly excited, talk on the phone, run, or pretty much do anything that isn’t walking with my mouth shut?
How did you conclude all of this from your friend deciding for herself that she didn’t want to talk on the phone in the street?
Why all the confusion? Shopping613’s friend is certainly following both the spirit and letter of the law I cited above from the Shulchan Aruch and Rambam.
Actually, a chassidesh friend of mine once told me that his Rebbe spoke out against talking on the phone in the street (for men). It was much harder to get a hold of him after that.
But on a more serious note, as I pointed out in the “Why can’t guys sleep late” thread, the different natures and/or roles of men and women will naturally result in different religious obligations for members of each gender. Girls have to dress a certain way – guys have to get up a certain time. Girls are apparently encouraged to act in a calm and refined in the streets – guys are discouraged from visiting malls/parks/etc where women are immodestly dressed. Girls are apparently encouraged to not go outside unnecessarily – guys are encouraged to learn 8-10 hours a day. The list goes on. Therefore, it is not logical to complain if one side has one particular obligation or prohibition that the other does not. Just because something is right or wrong for members of one gender does not mean that that is automatically true for the other. Each has their own role to play, and their own way to serve Hashem.
Avram in MD:
+1
I think it’s rude and obnoxious for anyone (men or women) to run, scream, talk loudly on the phone while in a public place.
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