July 10, 2012 2:44 pm at 2:44 pm #604060
As we enter the three weeks, let’s reflect on what we are mourning about. Take some time and think, “Why do I want Moshiach to come?”
We all want Moshiach to come. Some more some less (at least I hope!). We all ave various reasons. And there really is only one reason. And if all of Klal Yisroel really wants Moshiach to come FOR THE REAL REASON, there is no doubt that he will come immediately!
SiDI™qqJuly 10, 2012 3:50 pm at 3:50 pm #1058504
So that we can live our lives FULLY the way Hashem truly wants us to in E”Y, with no worries about the Goyim, or where our parnassah is coming from, or how Jews will get along with each other.July 10, 2012 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #1058505
Because it’s a Mitzvah to.July 10, 2012 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #1058506
I want to see my parents again.
(We do get techias hameisim with Moshiach, don’t we?)July 10, 2012 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #1058507
it’s a machlokes
the reason I want Moshiach to come is b/c I feel the world is upside down, and the reason for that is Hashem’s hester panim.July 10, 2012 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #1058508
Haifagirl: Machlokes Rishonim.July 10, 2012 8:03 pm at 8:03 pm #1058509
So all the pains so many are experiencing r”l will come to an end…and so our enemies will finally Alize they were wrong all along!July 10, 2012 8:31 pm at 8:31 pm #1058510
Same as coffee addict, I want Moshiach because the world is upside down and I am finding the nisyonos to be painful and exhausting. I also desperately would like to see my parents and sisters again. My strongest desire for Moshiach, however, is my burning desire to raise my kids without the pull of the yetzer hora. I would love to spare them the pitfalls and pain of falling prey, and would love to see them love Hashem and His Torah with all their being. I know it sounds corny/cliche, I would never have imagined myself to think/feel that way, but I have really come to feel this way over the long bumpy years.July 10, 2012 8:31 pm at 8:31 pm #1058511
Oh, and thanks for asking. It’s good to remind ourselves where we are holding.July 10, 2012 10:01 pm at 10:01 pm #1058512
Kol hamatmanin metzuyim k’afar.
Those are the things everyone agrees will happen when Mashiach comes. I think that’s plenty without conflating it with techiyas hamesim or ignoring Shmuel.July 10, 2012 10:08 pm at 10:08 pm #1058513
I used to think like many posters here that we want Moshiach to come for many of these reasons.
A few years ago I heard Reb Matisyahu at a tisha b’av event where he said that the main reason we should daven for moshiach is not so WE can have an easier or better life or that WE can have or live thru techiyas hameisim etc. Hakadosh Baruch Hu is in galus. He has no bais hamikdash or korbanos. We should daven for Him, so that the shechina should have a home and be able to come out of galus! This should be the focus of our tefillos. Daven for our Father in heaven, not for ourselves.
What a beautiful thought! How emesdig.July 10, 2012 11:15 pm at 11:15 pm #1058514
So I don’t have to workJuly 10, 2012 11:17 pm at 11:17 pm #1058515
Of course the reason is to have our Bais Hamikdosh and bring karbonos and come close to Hashem. Then we can bring about the greatest Kiddush Hashem and bring the shechina out of galus.
But I can’t help thinking will Mashiach tzidkeinu be black hat or srugie or turban? Will he wear tefillin on chol hamoed or not. tzitzis 1 hole or 2? Sefardi or Ashkenazi? If Ashkenaz, nusach sefard or nusach ashkenaz?…July 10, 2012 11:37 pm at 11:37 pm #1058516
mz: Mashiach will look exactly like you. 😉July 11, 2012 12:09 am at 12:09 am #1058517
here’s a curveball…maybe some people don’t want mashiach to come (yet). what would you say to them?July 11, 2012 12:25 am at 12:25 am #1058518
Song of BlessingParticipant
OF COURSE we want moshiach to come!! Why wouldn’t me – who by the mid 20’s hasn’t felt suffering, stress, pain, loss of a loved one… and today?? who hasn’t felt the pain of lieby kleitzy, the suffering in israel, mumbai attack…. the list can go on and on and on… we would be crazy not to want moshiach.
And yes we want to be closer to Hashem but I think mainly what people think of when they say they want moshiach is for all the suffering to end…July 11, 2012 12:31 am at 12:31 am #1058519
musser zoger – “and bring the shechina out of galus” – so you are going to help the shechinah?July 11, 2012 12:50 am at 12:50 am #1058520
pcoz: That question could be asked about prayer and korbanos too. The same answer applies.July 11, 2012 1:21 am at 1:21 am #1058521
Pray tell, which prayers?July 11, 2012 1:59 am at 1:59 am #1058522
coffee addict – rlly?? so that means mashiach might just be for those who are alive at the time? what about everyone else??July 11, 2012 7:45 am at 7:45 am #1058523
Shticky Guy, I was waiting for your answer! The real reason we should want Moshiach to come is NOT to get of work, nisyonos or trouble. It should be so that Hashem’s name will be one and his name will be one. That is what Oleinu and Kaddish are about. Yes, we want golus to end. Yes, we want tzaros to be over. But our main focus should be that our Father in Shomayim is suffering. And if we all really want Moshiach for that, I am sure Moshiach will come immediately!
SiDi™July 11, 2012 1:13 pm at 1:13 pm #1058524
pcoz- There is a story about a polish ?? ???? who was a successful farmer… one day he asked his Rebbe “Why do we need Moshiach? I am so happy, settled here, with a family and a farm – why do i need Jerusalem?”
The Rebbe said: “The Cossacks are on their way here. Daven for Moshiach and we will all be transfered to Jerusalem!!!”
THe farmer answered: “No rebbe – let Moshiach come and take the Cossacks to Jerusalem!!!”July 11, 2012 1:33 pm at 1:33 pm #1058525
yekke2: unfortunately, I think there are many people today who are living very comfortable lives and want all the “bad people” to be gotten rid of, but let them live there peaceful lives the way it is. It’s sad!
SiDi™July 11, 2012 1:59 pm at 1:59 pm #1058526
Of course, there is the “other” approach, that Moshiach doesn’s just “come” and solve all our problems. Instead, Yemos Hamoshiach /Acharos Hayamim will come to be only when we have fulfilled our mission as Jews – to be an or lagoyim and bring all the people of the world to a realization of their task to live as Human Beings in accordance with God’s Will. Moshiach does not “come” and magically transform the world; the world will enter a state of yemos hamoshiach when we have done our job as mamleches kohanim v’goy kadosh, when we have fully realized our potential as an am segulah.
We should not look to moshiach to solve our problems. How many times throughout our history have Jews been destroyed physically and spiritually because they looked to a person who seemed to be moshaich as the answer to their problems? Instead, we must solve our own problems, work through our challenges, improve ourselves and by example the world around us. If we do that we might merit to witness the day when we have successfully been “misaken olam b’malchus Shadai, v’chol binei basar yikra’u bishmecha.”
Just look at and really think about the paragraph in the Amida for Yomim Noraim beginning “U’vechein tein pachticha”; that says it all.July 11, 2012 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #1058527
But I can’t help thinking will
Mashiach tzidkeinu be black hat or srugie or turban? Will he wear tefillin on chol hamoed or not. tzitzis 1 hole or 2? Sefardi or Ashkenazi? If Ashkenaz, nusach sefard or nusach ashkenaz?…
Great point! It makes no difference. A Jew is a Jew is a Jew. These slight variations you mentioned should not even register in our minds. Some people make whole issues out of things like this (just ask any shadchan…) but that is so wrong.
here’s a curveball…maybe some people don’t want mashiach to
come (yet). what would you say to
I would say the following to them:
Take a look at kinnah 25 of shacharis on tisha b’ av that begins ?? ??? ???. This is the first kinah recited on Tisha b’av that is apparently unrelated to the churban. It mourns the calamities that befell the communities of the Rhineland in 1096 during the first crusade. It is ironic that the crusaders were willing to leave their homes, occupations and families behind to conquer the Holy Land while the Jews there had no such zeal to regain their homeland.
The Jews there were exiles who made their way to Germany following the destruction of the first bais hamikdash. After 70 years, many Jews returned from Babylon but none returned from Worms. The community in Jerusalem wrote to them urging them to return but they responded ‘ You stay where you are in the great Jerusalem, and we will continue to stay where we are in our little Jerusalem!’
This is why the terrible decree was issued in shamayim against the Jewish people, and especially against the Jews of Worms and her neighbouring communities.July 12, 2012 12:28 am at 12:28 am #1058528
By the way, I am no way NEAR wanting Moshiach just for Hashem. Just thought I’d raise awareness and maybe get some ideas on how to work on getting to such a lofty level.
SiDi™July 12, 2012 1:00 am at 1:00 am #1058529
SayIDidIt – “our Father in Shomayim is suffering.” – this is pure apikorsusJuly 12, 2012 2:08 am at 2:08 am #1058530
pcoz: SayIDidIt – “our Father in Shomayim is suffering.” – this is pure apikorsus
Excuse me and where do you get that from?
Please provide sources to any explanation you give. Thank you!
SiDi™July 12, 2012 3:36 am at 3:36 am #1058531
RSRH, I appreciate your point about not having things done for us but why do we say 3 times every single day Ki Lishuascha Kivinu Kal Hayom if we don’t hope he’ll come right away, and what about the Maamar Razal in Sanhedrin “Zachu Achishena…”? What is this “other” approach?July 12, 2012 3:56 am at 3:56 am #1058532
Song of BlessingParticipant
RSRH: Of course, there is the “other” approach,
If thats the case I think I throw up my hands n give up now… nothing but a miracle will change this world…July 12, 2012 4:10 am at 4:10 am #1058533
And RSRH, what about the 12th Ani Mamin? Achakelo Bechol Yom Sheyovo! Any day, any second!
SiDi™July 12, 2012 4:11 am at 4:11 am #1058534
In ???”? ????? ????? ????? ?
the rambam says there is no chisaron shayach to Hashem. Tzar is from chisaron.July 12, 2012 4:31 am at 4:31 am #1058535
So how do you understand “Bichol Tzorosom Lo Tzor” Yeshayahu and “Schinta Bigalusa” Zohar? Did you read there in Rambam 1,9 and 1,12? It says that though its not taken literally, it means something just we can’t comprehend its true meaning.July 12, 2012 5:00 am at 5:00 am #1058536
Vechi mah inyan shemittah etzel har sinai? This means that Hashem empathizes with us kaveyachol, to say that we daven for Hashem chas veshalom that He should not experience the tzar he has from empathizing with us through our redemption is just Polish and the wrong way round.July 12, 2012 5:15 am at 5:15 am #1058537
mmmm thats not all you said… and “polish” is definitely not apikorsus. be careful when you use that term and as SIDI said bring a source.July 12, 2012 5:50 am at 5:50 am #1058538
In Tzavaas Harivash (Baal Shem Tov) it says “Tzarich Liracheim al Hashchina” and more.
And nobody said anything about praying that way, just doing things in order to take the Shchina out of golus.July 12, 2012 1:07 pm at 1:07 pm #1058539
The ??? ???? writes in ???? ?? a fascinating thing. If you look through history, just before every period of ????, the ??? ????? were living peacefully and just TOO comfortably. Then came the blow. He warns ‘When people think that Berlin is ???????, that’s what will start off another mass murder…’
A ??? is better than a ????. He foresaw the tradegy of the Holocaust and the atrocities of the Nazis ??”? – because jews think that Berlin is Yerushalayim. How many of us are too comfortable for comfort???July 12, 2012 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #1058540
Pcoz: I don’t think it’s a big deal. She just left out the word “Kav’yachol”. There’s an inherent Kav’yachol implied (I hope) whenever we talk about Hashem and just about any human feeling or emotion or anything so I don’t think it was Apikorsus. That being said, we should be more careful about how we speak and such.
SiDi: RSRH is just quoting the Rambam that Yemos Hamashiach won’t be anything different from how the world is right now, with the only exception that the Jewish people will be sovereign on themselves and not ruled by anyone else. He Paskens like Shmuel in the Gemara. “Ein Bein Olam Hazeh L’yemos Hamashiach Ela Shib’ud Malchuyos Bilvad.”
Kozov: I cannot answer for or say anything against the Ba’al Shem Tov, but much of Chassidish thought is probably Apikorsus according to the Rambam (mostly from Yesodei Hatorah, certainly if you read the Moreh). Which is fine. They have their Gedolei Haposkim and the Rambam’s Shittah in regards to Kabbalah has certainly not been accepted. But quoting a Ba’al Shem Tov to someone who is quoting Apikorsus according to the Rambam won’t get you anywhere. They’re two entirely different planes of discussion.July 12, 2012 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #1058541
Nobody REALLY wants Mashiach to come. The coming of Mashiach would turn our lives upside down and nobody really wants that. We want ymos hamashiach to be just like it is now, except with korbanos, etc. To live with HaShem as an objective reality in our lives is too much for us to handle. That’s why Mashiach has not come yet.July 12, 2012 8:47 pm at 8:47 pm #1058542
We don’t really know why we want the Ge’ula. Because we don’t understand the pain of Hashem, and we have no Na’avi to describe it. We have no Na’avi to tell us and explain why we sometimes feel inadequate and lost. That itself, that feelng of ‘not knowing’, not knowing just how harmful Golus is, how each day in exile is worse than the next in a PERSONAL way, and not understanding the tzar of HKB”H is going through.
That itself is a reason to want Moshiach.
To understand what’s really going on around us, and to stop living blindly like everything is fine.
Because everthing is NOT fine.July 12, 2012 11:13 pm at 11:13 pm #1058543
BaalHabooze: This time I’ll protest before pcoz gets to it. Hashem doesn’t feel pain.July 12, 2012 11:39 pm at 11:39 pm #1058544
So what was Moshe telling Hashem when he said “lamah Hashem yechereh apcha biamech”? And who was he talking to?July 13, 2012 12:09 am at 12:09 am #1058545
Kozov: Read the Moreh Nevuchim. He addresses every instance where it seems that Hashem has feelings or physical attributes.July 13, 2012 2:52 am at 2:52 am #1058546
pcoz: You are clearly familiar with the yesodos hadat (finally, someone who is) so I think you’re aware of the question “what do our prayers confer upon God?” or couched differently “why do we say baruch ata” or yet differently “what does God want from our korbanos”. The concept of “shechinta b’galusa” has an explanation similar to the sefer charedim’s answer to the prayer question: It is proper for us to relate to God as if He is in Galus and by working towards Geula we kevayachol bring Him back.
much of Chassidish thought is probably Apikorsus according to the Rambam (mostly from Yesodei Hatorah, certainly if you read the Moreh). Which is fine.
Which is not fine. The rebbe of a very large segment of observant Jewry founded his movement on teachings that a rishon considered apikorsus, minus and kefira respectively (hilchos teshuva 3:18). Just so happens that this same rishon is the one who defined the “creed” of what Jews have to believe in, albeit in the middle of nowhere in perush hamishnayos. That creed was accepted universally and if you read the 13 ikkarim, you will find several things apparently contradicted by chassidus. It’s been an elephant in the room for centuries and it is at least as important to “farenfer” as any shverer Rashi in Hamocher es hasfina.July 13, 2012 3:05 am at 3:05 am #1058547
Sam first of all RSRH does not seem to be saying what you said, he brings a requirement i never heard of. In fact the rambam himself actually says about king moshiach the exact opposite of what RSRH describes later, “viyachof kal yisroel leileich ba ulichazeik bidkah” and second of all, to your point, the Rambam writes about Tchiyas Hameisim in his 13 ikrim, which is bitul minhago shel olam, so its not so simple that he says the entirety of the Geula will be a natural process. And definitely olam haba afterwards is miraculous, we cant even imagine it and thats also lishitas harambam. In fact it seems RSRH might agree with that, he just says that’s not right away, not even shibud malchiyus. That is what I challenged him for. His point that not everything will neccessarily be so easy right may be true, but it doesn’t have to be that way, even according to the Rambam. Like he writes in Iggeres Tchiyas Hameisim that what he explained elsewhere that the prophecies of moshiach like the wolf living with the lamb are just a mashla, it is not definitive that it will be that way.July 13, 2012 3:39 am at 3:39 am #1058548
Kozov: I do not see the contradiction between his words and your quote of the Rambam. That was his point. Nothing will necessarily be easier. Maybe it will be. Hopefully so. But his point was that you can’t rely upon that. Also, you apparently read the Iggeres on T’chiyas Hameisim. So you know that the Rambam very much limits it.July 13, 2012 4:47 am at 4:47 am #1058549
“Moshiach doesn’t just “come” and solve all our problems.”
There were no maybes there.
In any case, to add to this thread, let me quote from the end of the Rambam:
The Sages and the prophets did not yearn for the Messianic era in order to have dominion over the entire world, to rule over the gentiles, to be exalted by the nations, or to eat, drink, and celebrate. Rather, they desired to be free to involve themselves in Torah and wisdom without any pressures or disturbances, so that they would merit the world to come, as explained in Hilchot Teshuvah.July 13, 2012 1:27 pm at 1:27 pm #1058550
Kozov: He did say that it’s another approach, not that what he said was guaranteed.July 13, 2012 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #1058551
You’re right, he didn’t say so straight out. But he implied that according to the approach he brought gufa it is guaranteed.
“much of Chassidish thought is probably Apikorsus according to the Rambam (mostly from Yesodei Hatorah, certainly if you read the Moreh)”
Please elaborate.July 13, 2012 8:58 pm at 8:58 pm #1058552
Kozov: I apologize. I have no interest in writing an entire treatise on Chassidus and the Moreh Nevuchim here. (I’m sure there are plenty of such treatises on the internet. See what Google can find you. I haven’t searched so I don’t know what’s reliable, but you seem smart enough to figure out what’s reliable in this by yourself.)
Itche: I meant that it’s fine nowadays. I have no idea how it started or what caused it to be accepted, but Chassidus has been accepted as not being Apikorsus by the vast majority of Jews now. Thus, it’s clear that we don’t quite Pasken like the Rambam in every detail here. Or, at the very least, we accept that Chassidus has enough to rely on even against the Rambam.
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