Why I Hate Yom Ha'atma'ut

Sam2 – Ya’ see most Yeshivishe people don’t come on blogs (whether Yeshivish or Mizrachi) and say I don’t celebrate Yom Haatzmoet, but why do a lot from the Zionist camp have to come, esp. on Yeshivishe web sites, & announce how they are observing this day? There seems to be a pattern of “in your face”. This causes more Sinas Chinum than anything that I know that the Yeshivishe world does!

Sam – The Jewish community is constantly slapping labels on each other. We define a Jew by a million things. What type of yarmulke, streimel, sheitel, kercheif, hat, schools, skirt length, sleeve length, mixed seating, separate seating, dating style, wedding style………I’m not sure why you feel that this particular day is more divisive than all the issues that come up day after day in the coffee room and in conversation. I agree with you that the miracles that have happened in Israel over the last 63 years are truly Yad Hashem and it is only through Yad Hashem that we have been successful. Sometimes Yad Hashem is an event outside of nature, such as the splitting of the yam suf, but often people are required to put hishtadlus in for a miracle to manifest. We ask for nissim every day, yet people choose to ignore the day to day miracle of Israel’s survival. Politics have absolutely nothing to do with these miracles or the Jews that have died and suffered for Israel, those people deserve to be remembered and honored for what they sacrificed. It would be ungrateful to ignore them and a day of remembrance is appropriate. As for Hallel, half Hallel – davening is between an individual and Hashem. Celebrate or don’t celebrate with people who have similar views, even if that means going to a different shul for one day a year. I’ve been to two Yom Ha’atzmaut events this week and only felt solidarity and an immense appreciation for those that have died and for Hashem’s protection.

Can I tell you why I hate Yom Haatzbanut (as we jokingly call it in my house)?

The law is that the stores MUST close. You’ve never seen Geulah empty on an afternoon as I saw it yesterday. Not only that, but the day prior is Yom HaZikaron, another day that stores/businesses close. Now I needed to get a prescription, but little did I know that the pharmacies were closed from 2:00 that day, in part because of YHZ and in part in preparation for YHA. Most other stores were closing at 4:00. I’m sorry, but that’s not part of the day. Why can’t they close at 6? On the 4th of July, I know that businesses like retail are open a plenty. Yes, employees get paid extra wages for that day, so why can’t it be optional for businesses to open and at their discretion? Maybe they would want to make a YHA sale. Even food stores are closed part of the day, so you’ve got to plan ahead to buy bread and milk the day before. With it coming out on Thursday, so my local store opened at 2:30, but he had to get everything delivered yesterday because they weren’t going to get any deliveries today.

Crazy, crazy, crazy. I don’t know who made up the rules.

Health – Even if a blog is targeted towards the yeshivish community, it’s still a free for all for anybody in the world to read and comment on. What’s the point of having a discussion board that only expresses one point of view? Even in the yeshivish community people don’t always see eye to eye and while you may feel that your point is the only valid one, other people feel differently and are entitled to express that. If you stood in the middle of Times Square with a megaphone and shouted your opinions, people would have a right to answer. The internet is exactly the same thing, this isn’t a parlor meeting in your home. Any person in the universe that has an interest in reading this board can and does and unless they get banned by the moderators anyone who takes the time to register can comment. Your statement about what type of people make or don’t make comments on all kinds of blogs, which lead to sinas chinum has no basis in reality. How can you possibly back that statement up? Do you read every blog or newspaper comment out there? Do you do background checks on who wrote them? Even on this blog, the people that comment can be a stranger, a friend, a family member, someone you hate, someone you love, possibly even a law enforcement agent trying to understand how our community thinks. Blanket statements on something impossible to analyze doesn’t equal truth.

Yes, Sam. The Conservatives claim to adhere to halacha like the zionists claim their philosophy and actions adhere to halacha. Both are wrong.

Sam, it’s like that in a few places I’ve been as well. And I think it isn’t something we can only wish for. It is something we can make a reality with just a little effort and open-mindedness.

Regarding being annoyed by other people’s political views or hashkafos: that is something the annoyed party needs to work on. Everyone is free to express themselves, as long as it is in a polite, cordial way. It is up to the ones who disagree to work on their tolerance and acceptance. Being annoyed at another’s beliefs to the point where you feel hatred is YOUR problem, not theirs.

Health, actually, I ask people to not be RUDE to others. But yes, we should try to not annoy others as well. But the fact is that we all have different views, and as long as we are civil, there is no reason we should be getting annoyed. I don’t agree with MANY MANY opinions of people here. Do I get annoyed and angry at them because they have different opinions? Of course not! I simply move on, and understand that there are other views in the world.

And excuse me- it’s your DUTY to get angry???? No, it isn’t. What you SHOULD do is try to understand that because there are so many different views and opinions out there, we must be as accepting as possible. And if you believe someone is really doing something wrong, you can try to let them know in a POLITE, SENSITIVE way. I repeat: POLITE and SENSITIVE. Not by shouting, getting angry, or being rude. Letting anger into your heart will make you a sad, lonely person.

And who says I even agree with this? All I said was that today is an opportunity for us to show love for each other despite our differences. You know what I did today? I davened shacharis at a minyan that said hallel, and in the afternoon I learned in a kollel with people who would never even speak of today as a holiday. And I was happy in both places.

I will not respond to you in this thread any more, because:

1) I know that nothing I say will make an impression on you.

2) All it will cause is more anger, which is the opposite of what the original point of my post was.

Wishing you a wonderful shabbos.

Next year, it would be best to declare all three of the Zionist “observances” [???] off-limits for CR and for coverage. First, they really are. Second, even posting against them amounts to acknowledging their existence. Third, the gedolim pusseled them decades ago and any further commentary amounts to daas hediot challenging daas Torah.

Loyal Jew: SOME Rabbonim are against it. Others aren’t.

R’ Ovadia Yosef wrote a letter about Yom Hazikaron this week. It was published on the main YWN page if you want to read it.

Ponovezh flies an Israeli flag on Yom Ha’atzmaut.

Are these Rabbonim da’as hediot?

Ken Zayn that’s like asking a wife what’s for dinner tonight, and her answering,”Well, LAST night, we had fish.”

Should I fan the fire more?

http://www.5tjt.com/local-news/13991-why-chareidim-should-be-zionists

Dont Worry Be Happy -“Health – I think that your assumption that people post a Zionst topic in order to be annoying or in your face is wrong and perhaps you’re projecting a bit. They can also be posting it to try to open a closed mind to a different point of view. Some people who frequent this site are pro-Israel others aren’t, it’s not 100% anti zionist. The title Yeshiva World just implies that this site is filtered to topics that are relevant to the Yeshiva World, not that only a narrow group are allowed to visit.”

They should know that they aren’t going to change anybody’s mind by posting anything here. I don’t even think that people think that anymore than they think that s/o could change their own mind. So they do it to start up.

“In my opinion it’s hypocritical to visit Israel as a tourist, send your children to learn, enjoy all of the miracles of Israel, while having a lack of gratitude towards the people whose sacrifices allow us to do all of those things. Ithink the lack of hakaras hatov breeds sinas chinam, more than a dissenting view on a message board. That may not be how you see things, but it’s a valid point of view. Some people who frequent these boards agree with me, some agree with you. Some of the opinions that I read here annoy me, some annoy you, but that’s life, everyone see’s the world differently. Do you feel that your opinions are the baseline of what is correct and everything to the right and left are automatically wrong? It’s very typical for the commentators on this board to have dissenting views in starting a topic thread and in the comments that follow, this topic is no different.”

Since you claim that posts change people’s mind -I’ll post something now and we’ll see if it changes your mind:

I think it’s the Freye and “FRUM” Tzionists who have lack of Hakoras Hatov. The only reason that their army is successful in any operation is because of Limud Hatorah. But what are the Tzionists doing? They keep cutting funding for learning Torah -they are trying to force every Frum person into the Army by outlawing the Tal law. So since they keep starting up with the Non-Tzioni Frum people -this causes Sinas Chinum!

Health – It’s arrogant to state that the only reason that the army is successful is because of Limud Torah. Neither you or I, or anyone knows what the cheshbon is and why we’ve seen miracles. Does every tzadik who learns diligently get negated by three benchwarmers who should be working? By twelve? By a phony who pretends to be a tzadik, but is committing crimes privately? Does a non shomer shabbos Jew who doesn’t learn at all, but is honest and gives tzedaka and takes care of the elderly etc. have more merit than a mediocre learner who is avoiding responsibility by hiding in yeshiva? Who knows other than G-d. Maybe too many people who are not meant to be learners and are not accomplishing much are sitting in kollel. Maybe only the elite learners who can really accomplish something and become gedolim should be supported, not Joe Shmo who is looking to get out of real life responsibility by hiding away in a yeshiva and creating a burden on the people who become obligated to provide support. Maybe those people are not holding the world up, but actually living dishonestly under the guise of learning Torah. Maybe a Yeshiva that enables that behavior earns less schar? No matter who is earning the miracles, someone who died to protect Israel deserves honor and respect and should be remembered and appreciated. It’s basic derech eretz, which I suspect goes a long way to holding up the world.

Sam, why are you only looking at the extremes? Yeshivat Ponevich flies the flag every Yom haAtzmaut and the National Religious Rabbanit Chana Shachor wrote that the message of “Dayeinu” is that we must thank Hashem for what he has given us even thoug there is more to go (and Rav Tzvi Yehuda said pn many occasions that there is still a long road ahead, as is stted in the Yerushalmi Berachotr 1:1 “the Geula comes slowly in stages”).

As for limud Tora giving the Army zechut to succeed, this is true. However, the Army enables limud Tora to exist (Sanhedrin 49a).If a person is capable of learning at a high level he should be learning. If he has a strong mida of gevura he should be in the Army. The vast majority should do some combination and then work while being koveia itim laTora.

I dont understand how someone can benefit from the state of Isreal, but hate it because its run by non-frum jews. Hashem works in mysterious ways, but it seems clear, through the many war miracles, that the state exists for a reason.

Dont Worry Be Happy -“While the world may stand on Torah, it does not stand on phony Torah learners and the Yeshiva’s have many, many more than just a few of those.”

To say this is just a lie based on Sinas Chinum. Most aren’t phony -no matter what you say.

“A guy who’s learning as “best as possible” and that best doesn’t amount to much is wasting the talent that he was given by Hashem, not contributing to the world properly by using his weaknesses instead of strengths and defrauding the people who work hard to support him, in other words, he’s a deadbeat.”

There is such a concept of just learning without going out to work. Many Gedolim support this idea.

“A yeshiva that doesn’t encourage that type of learner to move on towards a career, while learning on the side and giving tzedaka is complicit in genaiva from financial supporters.”

No, they (money supporters) understand what learning means, not like your Haskofos.

“The backlash from SOME tsionim may be anti-Torah, but for most the issue is that the system of expecting financial support for learning is being abused.”

This is their Sinas Chinum because they don’t understand that their enemies haven’t wiped them out due to all the Torah Learning.

“Another reason is the total lack of derech eretz towards women and any Jew that isn’t willing to conform to the most stringent practices and latest chumra declared by the ultra chareidi community. It just smacks of ignorance, not piety and that’s not the way to earn respect and admiration. Somebody who wants the perks of living a holy lifestyle needs to walk the walk, not just talk the talk.”

They do actually walk the walk and not just talk like people like you. The MO & Chiloni think they can go wherever they want – dressed however they want. The Frum people Should make a Machoh due to the starting up of the MO/Freye. I never saw a protest in Tel Aviv because the Frumme aren’t trying to push their way on others, but don’t come to Frum neighborhoods and stick it in their face.

“The world stands on how we apply the Torah that we learn, not purely the intellectual process of analyzing it. The tragedy of Rabbi Akiva’s students, the biggest learners of that time, demonstrates that beautifully, they didn’t die because the neighbor dressed immodestly or went to work, they died because of lack of derech eretz among each other.”

Exactly, so how come you have No respect (Derech Eretz) for Torah learners?

“There are very, very respected gedolim in Israel, who deal with the dire poverty that is the direct result of everybody feeling pressured to be in kollel, who absolutely advocate for the majority of chareidim to go to the army and to get a higher education.”

Like I said many Gedolim disagree.

“I work in that world and know firsthand of strategies that have been discussed and even implemented to help transition these men into becoming productive citizens. The kollel system was historically a much smaller system and never meant for the staggering amount of people that are currently playing the kollel game.

It’s disingenuous to pretend that it isn’t a huge strain on the finances of the community and Israeli gov’t and it’s extremely ungrateful to ignore the contribution of somebody who gave up his life or is living with life changing injuries so that Israel could exist.”

I never said to ignore his contribution, but the Freye ignore the contribution of the Bnei Torah.

“The way of this world is that Hashem creates miracles, but we are responsible to do our hishtadlus.”

And it’s a partnership between the learners of Torah and the Army.

“How can you possibly discount the contribution of somebody who took a bullet for the rest of us?”

Read my line above. If you want to dimish the Israeli causalties -how about the Freye increasing support for Torah learning instead of decreasing it?

“Btw, many religious Israeli’s, who are shomer shabbos and learn do go to the army. Do you feel a total lack of gratitude towards them too?”

Again, I was discussing MO’s along with the Chilonim. Once they leave Yeshiva and go fight, even if part time -they aren’t full time learners. It’s the full time learners who are protecting the Army and the Israeli citizens!

Actually there’s a story about (I think Rav Yaakov Galinski) where after the six day war they made a huge affair, commending and praising all the war personal and strategies. He was coerced to come along. Towards the close of the event, one Major stood up and announced “..and now we shall hear from our Rabbi of Jerusalem, of the war efforts done in Meah Shearim and Bnei Brak.” Sneers.

On the spot he got up and said “Before the war, they were estimating casualties and countless park and been assigned as temporary cemeteries. Yeshiva men were assiged the task of cheva kadisha, to assist the army officials in their work. HaShem however cared more for their learning and Tehillim, he spared the any extra work, enabling them to maximize their time in Torah study. Does anybody care that theses designated places still remain a park?” Thunderous applause!!!

<I’m not writing this properly – I’m in a rush>

The Hasmoneans did much worse aveirot than the worst leftist would dream of doing (like slaughtering the Chachamim).

Yeah, I think I’ve heard things roughly that bad being advocated by some leftists.

Then there is also the small issue of Ben-Hecht’s accusations which, if true, are exactly that.

Sam: Can you find us that please? All I found is this http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/touro-or-yu

and I don’t see me saying that, although, the second post on this thread is golden.

Shkoyach DY. Excellent. Very fine posting there on my part too.