Why I Hate Yom Ha'atma'ut

Home Forums Decaffeinated Coffee Why I Hate Yom Ha'atma'ut

Viewing 50 posts - 1 through 50 (of 76 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #603119
    Sam2
    Participant

    It is the most political day of the Jewish year. It’s ridiculous that everyone, everywhere, lets politics trump Halachah. Why is it inconceivable that a Chareidi/Yeshivish Jew can look at Hakamas Hamedina, realize that (in his estimation) it was all done through Nissin V’nifla’os B’yad Hakadosh Baruch Hu and think that it is such a Nes for the Jewish people that it requires saying Hallel? Why can’t a non-Chareidi/Yeshivish Jew see the problems that there are with the Medinah and decide that maybe it’s not a K’dai thing to celebrate? Why does it have to be a political statement whether or not you say Tachanun or half Hallel or whole Hallel or whole Hallel with a Bracha but no Haftarah, etc.? What does it even matter? Why can’t Halachic decisions stay Halachic decisions? Every decision that someone makes on this day changes from a Halachic opinion to a political statement defining what type of Jew he is. I’m sorry. But this is absolutely retarded. And that’s why this day bothers me more than any other day of the year. It’s so divisive, so full of Sinas Chinam, and for what? For Halachic decisions that we make? We don’t define a Jew by whether he waits 5 hours or 6. We don’t define a Jew by if he washes Mayim Achronim to the knuckle or to the wrist. We don’t define a Jew by whether he uses a 3.5 oz. or 5 oz. cup by Kiddush and Havdalah. So why do we define everything based on what he does or doesn’t do today?

    #944284
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Why not lead a Public Kinot event

    #944285
    Health
    Participant

    Sam2 – Ya’ see most Yeshivishe people don’t come on blogs (whether Yeshivish or Mizrachi) and say I don’t celebrate Yom Haatzmoet, but why do a lot from the Zionist camp have to come, esp. on Yeshivishe web sites, & announce how they are observing this day? There seems to be a pattern of “in your face”. This causes more Sinas Chinum than anything that I know that the Yeshivishe world does!

    #944286
    msseeker
    Member

    That’s a good question for RZ. For us, it’s a question of emunah, bracha levatala, ?? ????? – no simple matters and far from 5-6 hour questions. Even if you’re RZ, in this case ?? ??? ???? wins hands down. We talk halacha while you talk politics.

    #944287

    Sam – The Jewish community is constantly slapping labels on each other. We define a Jew by a million things. What type of yarmulke, streimel, sheitel, kercheif, hat, schools, skirt length, sleeve length, mixed seating, separate seating, dating style, wedding style………I’m not sure why you feel that this particular day is more divisive than all the issues that come up day after day in the coffee room and in conversation. I agree with you that the miracles that have happened in Israel over the last 63 years are truly Yad Hashem and it is only through Yad Hashem that we have been successful. Sometimes Yad Hashem is an event outside of nature, such as the splitting of the yam suf, but often people are required to put hishtadlus in for a miracle to manifest. We ask for nissim every day, yet people choose to ignore the day to day miracle of Israel’s survival. Politics have absolutely nothing to do with these miracles or the Jews that have died and suffered for Israel, those people deserve to be remembered and honored for what they sacrificed. It would be ungrateful to ignore them and a day of remembrance is appropriate. As for Hallel, half Hallel – davening is between an individual and Hashem. Celebrate or don’t celebrate with people who have similar views, even if that means going to a different shul for one day a year. I’ve been to two Yom Ha’atzmaut events this week and only felt solidarity and an immense appreciation for those that have died and for Hashem’s protection.

    #944288
    derszoger
    Member

    You could make the same argument vis-a-vis Conservative. Why can’t we all live side by side and accept our disagreements about halacha and agree to disagree.

    #944290
    Nechomah
    Participant

    Can I tell you why I hate Yom Haatzbanut (as we jokingly call it in my house)?

    The law is that the stores MUST close. You’ve never seen Geulah empty on an afternoon as I saw it yesterday. Not only that, but the day prior is Yom HaZikaron, another day that stores/businesses close. Now I needed to get a prescription, but little did I know that the pharmacies were closed from 2:00 that day, in part because of YHZ and in part in preparation for YHA. Most other stores were closing at 4:00. I’m sorry, but that’s not part of the day. Why can’t they close at 6? On the 4th of July, I know that businesses like retail are open a plenty. Yes, employees get paid extra wages for that day, so why can’t it be optional for businesses to open and at their discretion? Maybe they would want to make a YHA sale. Even food stores are closed part of the day, so you’ve got to plan ahead to buy bread and milk the day before. With it coming out on Thursday, so my local store opened at 2:30, but he had to get everything delivered yesterday because they weren’t going to get any deliveries today.

    Crazy, crazy, crazy. I don’t know who made up the rules.

    #944291
    MiddlePath
    Participant

    Sam, while you are right, I think we should have the exact OPPOSITE perspective. We should love Yom Haatzmaut, because it is a day that all types of Jews have the amazing opportunity to show ahavas yisrael, and do their best to get along with and give a smile to other types of Jews, despite their differences on this day. What an opportunity it is! We should all go over to someone today who doesn’t do what we do, whether it’s someone who celebrates to someone who doesn’t, and vice versa, and greet them with a smile. Today can be a day where we can reach unbelievable heights by putting aside our differences and showing G-d that we are one nation.

    #944292

    Health – Even if a blog is targeted towards the yeshivish community, it’s still a free for all for anybody in the world to read and comment on. What’s the point of having a discussion board that only expresses one point of view? Even in the yeshivish community people don’t always see eye to eye and while you may feel that your point is the only valid one, other people feel differently and are entitled to express that. If you stood in the middle of Times Square with a megaphone and shouted your opinions, people would have a right to answer. The internet is exactly the same thing, this isn’t a parlor meeting in your home. Any person in the universe that has an interest in reading this board can and does and unless they get banned by the moderators anyone who takes the time to register can comment. Your statement about what type of people make or don’t make comments on all kinds of blogs, which lead to sinas chinum has no basis in reality. How can you possibly back that statement up? Do you read every blog or newspaper comment out there? Do you do background checks on who wrote them? Even on this blog, the people that comment can be a stranger, a friend, a family member, someone you hate, someone you love, possibly even a law enforcement agent trying to understand how our community thinks. Blanket statements on something impossible to analyze doesn’t equal truth.

    #944293
    Sam2
    Participant

    MiddlePath: That’s what I wish it was and that’s what it’s like in one place I’ve been (and only one-a small, out-of-town community where the Yeshivish and non-Yeshivish wouldn’t have a Minyan without the other). I wish Yom Ha’atzma’ut (or any day, really, I don’t care which) where everyone gets together and agrees.

    Ders: You are really comparing the Conservatives who aren’t Shomer Halachah and deny basic Ikkarei Emunah with Halachah-observant people who merely have a different stance than you on what constitutes Yad Hashem?

    #944294
    derszoger
    Member

    Yes, Sam. The Conservatives claim to adhere to halacha like the zionists claim their philosophy and actions adhere to halacha. Both are wrong.

    #944295
    Health
    Participant

    Dont Worry Be Happy -“Health – Even if a blog is targeted towards the yeshivish community, it’s still a free for all for anybody in the world to read and comment on. What’s the point of having a discussion board that only expresses one point of view?”

    You totally missed my point. I never said the Zionists can’t come here and post.

    “Your statement about what type of people make or don’t make comments on all kinds of blogs, which lead to sinas chinum has no basis in reality. How can you possibly back that statement up?”

    Simple, it’s my opinion.

    I’ll explain it to you. The guy was asking why is there so much Sinas Chinum on Yom Hatzmoet? I answered a reason, maybe not all the reasons, but a reason.

    I don’t think you need to be a genius to figure out that if you come to the YESHIVA World and start a topic praising the Zionists -that this might annoy some people here. If you annoy people they get upset and respond. So if s/o wants to diminish the Sinas Chinum don’t start topics that annoys people, even if it’s your right. I’m sure if they started these topics on MO or Mizrachi sites -the posters there would Not get annoyed.

    #944296
    Sam2
    Participant

    Health: I wasn’t referring to this forum in particular. I was referring to, in general, the attitude that what you do on Yom Ha’atzma’ut defines you as a person and that anyone who doesn’t do the same thing as someone else is automatically open to be mocked, ridiculed, and thought down upon by that person.

    #944297
    Health
    Participant

    Sam2 -“Health: I wasn’t referring to this forum in particular.”

    I understand that. But even in our little world here, we can stop some of the animosity between us. I was always told that if you don’t have something nice to say – don’t say it.

    Actually they are posting nice things, but since a good portion of posters here don’t agree with their political views -it annoys them. Not starting these topics would diminsh Sinas Chinum here in our little corner of the world.

    #944298
    MiddlePath
    Participant

    Sam, it’s like that in a few places I’ve been as well. And I think it isn’t something we can only wish for. It is something we can make a reality with just a little effort and open-mindedness.

    Regarding being annoyed by other people’s political views or hashkafos: that is something the annoyed party needs to work on. Everyone is free to express themselves, as long as it is in a polite, cordial way. It is up to the ones who disagree to work on their tolerance and acceptance. Being annoyed at another’s beliefs to the point where you feel hatred is YOUR problem, not theirs.

    #944299
    Health
    Participant

    MiddlePath -“Regarding being annoyed by other people’s political views or hashkafos: that is something the annoyed party needs to work on. Everyone is free to express themselves, as long as it is in a polite, cordial way. It is up to the ones who disagree to work on their tolerance and acceptance. Being annoyed at another’s beliefs to the point where you feel hatred is YOUR problem, not theirs.”

    Not when it goes against your core beliefs. If I believe what you’re posting is based on Kefira -it’s my duty to get angry.

    This anger will lead to Sinas Chinum. (Tosfos Pesachim)

    Never the less, I still have to make a Machoh. Maybe it’s better if they didn’t post their Israeli views here?

    I’m actually shocked at your post. You’re the one always telling e/o to make sure you don’t annoy others, but when it comes to a view that you PERSONALLY agree with – then you have no problem if it annoys others.

    #944300
    MiddlePath
    Participant

    Health, actually, I ask people to not be RUDE to others. But yes, we should try to not annoy others as well. But the fact is that we all have different views, and as long as we are civil, there is no reason we should be getting annoyed. I don’t agree with MANY MANY opinions of people here. Do I get annoyed and angry at them because they have different opinions? Of course not! I simply move on, and understand that there are other views in the world.

    And excuse me- it’s your DUTY to get angry???? No, it isn’t. What you SHOULD do is try to understand that because there are so many different views and opinions out there, we must be as accepting as possible. And if you believe someone is really doing something wrong, you can try to let them know in a POLITE, SENSITIVE way. I repeat: POLITE and SENSITIVE. Not by shouting, getting angry, or being rude. Letting anger into your heart will make you a sad, lonely person.

    And who says I even agree with this? All I said was that today is an opportunity for us to show love for each other despite our differences. You know what I did today? I davened shacharis at a minyan that said hallel, and in the afternoon I learned in a kollel with people who would never even speak of today as a holiday. And I was happy in both places.

    I will not respond to you in this thread any more, because:

    1) I know that nothing I say will make an impression on you.

    2) All it will cause is more anger, which is the opposite of what the original point of my post was.

    Wishing you a wonderful shabbos.

    #944301

    Health – I think that your assumption that people post a Zionst topic in order to be annoying or in your face is wrong and perhaps you’re projecting a bit. They can also be posting it to try to open a closed mind to a different point of view. Some people who frequent this site are pro-Israel others aren’t, it’s not 100% anti zionist. The title Yeshiva World just implies that this site is filtered to topics that are relevant to the Yeshiva World, not that only a narrow group are allowed to visit. In my opinion it’s hypocritical to visit Israel as a tourist, send your children to learn, enjoy all of the miracles of Israel, while having a lack of gratitude towards the people whose sacrifices allow us to do all of those things. Ithink the lack of hakaras hatov breeds sinas chinam, more than a dissenting view on a message board. That may not be how you see things, but it’s a valid point of view. Some people who frequent these boards agree with me, some agree with you. Some of the opinions that I read here annoy me, some annoy you, but that’s life, everyone see’s the world differently. Do you feel that your opinions are the baseline of what is correct and everything to the right and left are automatically wrong? It’s very typical for the commentators on this board to have dissenting views in starting a topic thread and in the comments that follow, this topic is no different.

    #944302
    Loyal Jew
    Member

    Next year, it would be best to declare all three of the Zionist “observances” [???] off-limits for CR and for coverage. First, they really are. Second, even posting against them amounts to acknowledging their existence. Third, the gedolim pusseled them decades ago and any further commentary amounts to daas hediot challenging daas Torah.

    #944303
    far east
    Member

    Health- How can you blame sinas chinam on one sect of judiasm- everyone needs to be more understanding.

    I personally do not say hallel, however i would never disrespect MO jews by storming out of davening (as ive seen many people do).I dont see how zionists try to rub it in anyones face, their simply celebrrating the creation of a democratic state where they can live freely the same way Americans celebrate July 4th

    #944304
    Feif Un
    Participant

    Loyal Jew: SOME Rabbonim are against it. Others aren’t.

    R’ Ovadia Yosef wrote a letter about Yom Hazikaron this week. It was published on the main YWN page if you want to read it.

    Ponovezh flies an Israeli flag on Yom Ha’atzmaut.

    Are these Rabbonim da’as hediot?

    #944305
    Ken Zayn
    Member

    The ikkar is halacha not politics. So there were these two neturei karta guys watching the celebrations with dismay and one asks the other ‘so how many years has this medina been going for now’ and his friend says ‘well last year was 63’.

    #944306
    oomis
    Participant

    Ken Zayn that’s like asking a wife what’s for dinner tonight, and her answering,”Well, LAST night, we had fish.”

    #944307
    msseeker
    Member

    “I dont see how zionists try to rub it in anyones face”

    Right here. It’s like me posting anti-Zionist comments on Cross-Currents etc., only the “open-minded” rabbis running those sites would never let them pass.

    #944308
    kgh5771
    Participant
    #944309
    Health
    Participant

    MP -“And excuse me- it’s your DUTY to get angry???? No, it isn’t. What you SHOULD do is try to understand that because there are so many different views and opinions out there, we must be as accepting as possible. And if you believe someone is really doing something wrong, you can try to let them know in a POLITE, SENSITIVE way. I repeat: POLITE and SENSITIVE. Not by shouting, getting angry, or being rude. Letting anger into your heart will make you a sad, lonely person.”

    What you fail to understand or don’t want to understand is not every scenario is the same. EG. – If s/o doesn’t know what Shabbos is and comes and posts here that he thinks it’s great to drive around in his sports car on Shabbos, then he should be treated with respect.

    OTOH, if s/o is well aware what Shabbos is (eg. he was FRUM his whole life till a year ago) and posts the same thing -then he should NOT be treated with any respect.

    It’s the same thing with these Zionist Holidays. They are well aware what Most Yeshiva people hold -that Zionism goes against their core religious beliefs. So if s/o comes here and starts praising them -there is nothing wrong and just the opposite, it should illicit a strong response. Shlomoh Hamelech said -“there are times for everything.”

    #944310
    Health
    Participant

    Dont Worry Be Happy -“Health – I think that your assumption that people post a Zionst topic in order to be annoying or in your face is wrong and perhaps you’re projecting a bit. They can also be posting it to try to open a closed mind to a different point of view. Some people who frequent this site are pro-Israel others aren’t, it’s not 100% anti zionist. The title Yeshiva World just implies that this site is filtered to topics that are relevant to the Yeshiva World, not that only a narrow group are allowed to visit.”

    They should know that they aren’t going to change anybody’s mind by posting anything here. I don’t even think that people think that anymore than they think that s/o could change their own mind. So they do it to start up.

    “In my opinion it’s hypocritical to visit Israel as a tourist, send your children to learn, enjoy all of the miracles of Israel, while having a lack of gratitude towards the people whose sacrifices allow us to do all of those things. Ithink the lack of hakaras hatov breeds sinas chinam, more than a dissenting view on a message board. That may not be how you see things, but it’s a valid point of view. Some people who frequent these boards agree with me, some agree with you. Some of the opinions that I read here annoy me, some annoy you, but that’s life, everyone see’s the world differently. Do you feel that your opinions are the baseline of what is correct and everything to the right and left are automatically wrong? It’s very typical for the commentators on this board to have dissenting views in starting a topic thread and in the comments that follow, this topic is no different.”

    Since you claim that posts change people’s mind -I’ll post something now and we’ll see if it changes your mind:

    I think it’s the Freye and “FRUM” Tzionists who have lack of Hakoras Hatov. The only reason that their army is successful in any operation is because of Limud Hatorah. But what are the Tzionists doing? They keep cutting funding for learning Torah -they are trying to force every Frum person into the Army by outlawing the Tal law. So since they keep starting up with the Non-Tzioni Frum people -this causes Sinas Chinum!

    #944311
    Health
    Participant

    far east -“I personally do not say hallel, however i would never disrespect MO jews by storming out of davening (as ive seen many people do).”

    You’re right. They should have never stepped foot into such a Shul in the first place!

    #944312

    Health – It’s arrogant to state that the only reason that the army is successful is because of Limud Torah. Neither you or I, or anyone knows what the cheshbon is and why we’ve seen miracles. Does every tzadik who learns diligently get negated by three benchwarmers who should be working? By twelve? By a phony who pretends to be a tzadik, but is committing crimes privately? Does a non shomer shabbos Jew who doesn’t learn at all, but is honest and gives tzedaka and takes care of the elderly etc. have more merit than a mediocre learner who is avoiding responsibility by hiding in yeshiva? Who knows other than G-d. Maybe too many people who are not meant to be learners and are not accomplishing much are sitting in kollel. Maybe only the elite learners who can really accomplish something and become gedolim should be supported, not Joe Shmo who is looking to get out of real life responsibility by hiding away in a yeshiva and creating a burden on the people who become obligated to provide support. Maybe those people are not holding the world up, but actually living dishonestly under the guise of learning Torah. Maybe a Yeshiva that enables that behavior earns less schar? No matter who is earning the miracles, someone who died to protect Israel deserves honor and respect and should be remembered and appreciated. It’s basic derech eretz, which I suspect goes a long way to holding up the world.

    #944313
    Health
    Participant

    Dont Worry Be Happy -“Health – It’s arrogant to state that the only reason that the army is successful is because of Limud Torah.”

    Actually this comes from the Torah and yes Hashem is arrogant -doesn’t mean you can be also!

    Even if there are problems with some Fakers, by and far the Most are sitting and learning as best as possible. The Tzionim’s beef is not with these few -they are against any Limud Hatorah!

    #944314
    Avi K
    Participant

    Sam, why are you only looking at the extremes? Yeshivat Ponevich flies the flag every Yom haAtzmaut and the National Religious Rabbanit Chana Shachor wrote that the message of “Dayeinu” is that we must thank Hashem for what he has given us even thoug there is more to go (and Rav Tzvi Yehuda said pn many occasions that there is still a long road ahead, as is stted in the Yerushalmi Berachotr 1:1 “the Geula comes slowly in stages”).

    As for limud Tora giving the Army zechut to succeed, this is true. However, the Army enables limud Tora to exist (Sanhedrin 49a).If a person is capable of learning at a high level he should be learning. If he has a strong mida of gevura he should be in the Army. The vast majority should do some combination and then work while being koveia itim laTora.

    #944315

    Health – Please don’t call Hashem arrogant, that’s inappropriate and your comment doesn’t justify saying that. While the world may stand on Torah, it does not stand on phony Torah learners and the Yeshiva’s have many, many more than just a few of those. A guy who’s learning as “best as possible” and that best doesn’t amount to much is wasting the talent that he was given by Hashem, not contributing to the world properly by using his weaknesses instead of strengths and defrauding the people who work hard to support him, in other words, he’s a deadbeat. A yeshiva that doesn’t encourage that type of learner to move on towards a career, while learning on the side and giving tzedaka is complicit in genaiva from financial supporters. The backlash from SOME tsionim may be anti-Torah, but for most the issue is that the system of expecting financial support for learning is being abused. Another reason is the total lack of derech eretz towards women and any Jew that isn’t willing to conform to the most stringent practices and latest chumra declared by the ultra chareidi community. It just smacks of ignorance, not piety and that’s not the way to earn respect and admiration. Somebody who wants the perks of living a holy lifestyle needs to walk the walk, not just talk the talk. The world stands on how we apply the Torah that we learn, not purely the intellectual process of analyzing it. The tragedy of Rabbi Akiva’s students, the biggest learners of that time, demonstrates that beautifully, they didn’t die because the neighbor dressed immodestly or went to work, they died because of lack of derech eretz among each other. There are very, very respected gedolim in Israel, who deal with the dire poverty that is the direct result of everybody feeling pressured to be in kollel, who absolutely advocate for the majority of chareidim to go to the army and to get a higher education. I work in that world and know firsthand of strategies that have been discussed and even implemented to help transition these men into becoming productive citizens. The kollel system was historically a much smaller system and never meant for the staggering amount of people that are currently playing the kollel game. It’s disingenuous to pretend that it isn’t a huge strain on the finances of the community and Israeli gov’t and it’s extremely ungrateful to ignore the contribution of somebody who gave up his life or is living with life changing injuries so that Israel could exist. The way of this world is that Hashem creates miracles, but we are responsible to do our hishtadlus. How can you possibly discount the contribution of somebody who took a bullet for the rest of us? Btw, many religious Israeli’s, who are shomer shabbos and learn do go to the army. Do you feel a total lack of gratitude towards them too?

    #944317
    far east
    Member

    I dont understand how someone can benefit from the state of Isreal, but hate it because its run by non-frum jews. Hashem works in mysterious ways, but it seems clear, through the many war miracles, that the state exists for a reason.

    #944318
    lastword
    Participant

    @ Sam 2 (first post)

    “We don’t define a Jew by if he washes Mayim Achronim to the knuckle or to the wrist.”

    I don’t think this is a machlokes in the least – but the psak is not like either of these — mayim achronim is only to the first joints on the fingertips.

    The main point though is well taken.

    #944319
    Sam2
    Participant

    Last word: Sorry, that’s actually specifically mentioned in the Poskim as a Minhag Ta’us. See the Mishnah B’rurah. It should be the entire fingers (or at least the second knuckle). The Gra, I believe, held you need up to the wrist. This is all in O.C. 181, if I recall correctly.

    #944320
    HaKatan
    Participant

    far east:

    “hate it because its run by non-frum jews”

    People don’t hate it, and not because it is run by non-frum Jews. There is no reason to hate anything because of the level of observance of its owners.

    But the entire Zionist enterprise is a blatant affront to, and terrible rebellion against, Hashem and His holy Torah. That’s the major problem and a cause for serious consternation. The kol isha and other IDF issues and myriad other problems with the State, serious as they are, are only secondary to this.


    “Hashem works in mysterious ways, but it seems clear, through the many war miracles, that the state exists for a reason.”

    This is too simplistic a view. All of these miracles have had the clear effect of saving Jewish lives. That these miracles may have also benefited the State of Israel is irrelevant.

    As well, the only reason anything exists is that Hashem allows it to begin and continue to do so. But man has free will. So not everything that exists is His preference. To be very clear, Hashem did NOT and still does NOT want a State of Israel. That it continues to exist means simply that Hashem ALLOWS it to exist, not that he WANTS it. Hashem allowed many things that He clearly did not WANT (like the churban of both Batei Mikdash and other things we mention on Tisha BiAv).

    Speaking of Tisha BiAv, that is the REAL day for mourning the loss of the 6+ million kedoshim of the holocaust, not on some artificially invented Zionist day. By NOT doing so on 9 Av and INSTEAD doing so on this invented day, Zionists deny that the source of all the tragedies, CH”V that befell our people throughout the ages, is rooted in 9 Av and Hashem having expelled us from E”Y. This is not convenient for the Zionism, of course, since they are post-Jewish Israelis who have “returned” to the land, unlike those “galus” Jews. Of course, the Israeli is the greatest “galus Jew” with his insatiable thirst for “normalcy” and recognition from the nations of the world who really laugh at him.

    #944321
    Health
    Participant

    Dont Worry Be Happy -“While the world may stand on Torah, it does not stand on phony Torah learners and the Yeshiva’s have many, many more than just a few of those.”

    To say this is just a lie based on Sinas Chinum. Most aren’t phony -no matter what you say.

    “A guy who’s learning as “best as possible” and that best doesn’t amount to much is wasting the talent that he was given by Hashem, not contributing to the world properly by using his weaknesses instead of strengths and defrauding the people who work hard to support him, in other words, he’s a deadbeat.”

    There is such a concept of just learning without going out to work. Many Gedolim support this idea.

    “A yeshiva that doesn’t encourage that type of learner to move on towards a career, while learning on the side and giving tzedaka is complicit in genaiva from financial supporters.”

    No, they (money supporters) understand what learning means, not like your Haskofos.

    “The backlash from SOME tsionim may be anti-Torah, but for most the issue is that the system of expecting financial support for learning is being abused.”

    This is their Sinas Chinum because they don’t understand that their enemies haven’t wiped them out due to all the Torah Learning.

    “Another reason is the total lack of derech eretz towards women and any Jew that isn’t willing to conform to the most stringent practices and latest chumra declared by the ultra chareidi community. It just smacks of ignorance, not piety and that’s not the way to earn respect and admiration. Somebody who wants the perks of living a holy lifestyle needs to walk the walk, not just talk the talk.”

    They do actually walk the walk and not just talk like people like you. The MO & Chiloni think they can go wherever they want – dressed however they want. The Frum people Should make a Machoh due to the starting up of the MO/Freye. I never saw a protest in Tel Aviv because the Frumme aren’t trying to push their way on others, but don’t come to Frum neighborhoods and stick it in their face.

    “The world stands on how we apply the Torah that we learn, not purely the intellectual process of analyzing it. The tragedy of Rabbi Akiva’s students, the biggest learners of that time, demonstrates that beautifully, they didn’t die because the neighbor dressed immodestly or went to work, they died because of lack of derech eretz among each other.”

    Exactly, so how come you have No respect (Derech Eretz) for Torah learners?

    “There are very, very respected gedolim in Israel, who deal with the dire poverty that is the direct result of everybody feeling pressured to be in kollel, who absolutely advocate for the majority of chareidim to go to the army and to get a higher education.”

    Like I said many Gedolim disagree.

    “I work in that world and know firsthand of strategies that have been discussed and even implemented to help transition these men into becoming productive citizens. The kollel system was historically a much smaller system and never meant for the staggering amount of people that are currently playing the kollel game.

    It’s disingenuous to pretend that it isn’t a huge strain on the finances of the community and Israeli gov’t and it’s extremely ungrateful to ignore the contribution of somebody who gave up his life or is living with life changing injuries so that Israel could exist.”

    I never said to ignore his contribution, but the Freye ignore the contribution of the Bnei Torah.

    “The way of this world is that Hashem creates miracles, but we are responsible to do our hishtadlus.”

    And it’s a partnership between the learners of Torah and the Army.

    “How can you possibly discount the contribution of somebody who took a bullet for the rest of us?”

    Read my line above. If you want to dimish the Israeli causalties -how about the Freye increasing support for Torah learning instead of decreasing it?

    “Btw, many religious Israeli’s, who are shomer shabbos and learn do go to the army. Do you feel a total lack of gratitude towards them too?”

    Again, I was discussing MO’s along with the Chilonim. Once they leave Yeshiva and go fight, even if part time -they aren’t full time learners. It’s the full time learners who are protecting the Army and the Israeli citizens!

    #944322
    msseeker
    Member

    This lovely piece of news somehow reminded me of Yom Ha’atsmaut:

    Now we have… a California Planned Parenthood’s “Forty Days of Prayer.” As PJ Tatler explains, they are “literally making a sacrament of abortion.” The “prayers” include thanksgiving for the availability of abortion services, abortion’s legality, and the “sacred” nature of the care that abortion providers offer. There are even prayers against pro-lifers. Another “prayer” is offered for “…the families we’ve chosen. May they know the blessing of choice.”

    #944323
    ZeesKite
    Participant

    Actually there’s a story about (I think Rav Yaakov Galinski) where after the six day war they made a huge affair, commending and praising all the war personal and strategies. He was coerced to come along. Towards the close of the event, one Major stood up and announced “..and now we shall hear from our Rabbi of Jerusalem, of the war efforts done in Meah Shearim and Bnei Brak.” Sneers.

    On the spot he got up and said “Before the war, they were estimating casualties and countless park and been assigned as temporary cemeteries. Yeshiva men were assiged the task of cheva kadisha, to assist the army officials in their work. HaShem however cared more for their learning and Tehillim, he spared the any extra work, enabling them to maximize their time in Torah study. Does anybody care that theses designated places still remain a park?” Thunderous applause!!!

    <I’m not writing this properly – I’m in a rush>

    #944325
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    bump

    #944326
    Sam2
    Participant

    I should have known that Popa would attempt to bump up a flame war. 🙂

    #944327
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant
    #944328
    Sam2
    Participant

    I was referencing a Yu vs. Tuoro thread a few months back where Popa mentioned that he loves starting flame wars.

    #944329
    Avi K
    Participant

    ???”? ????? ????? ?????? ?

    ???? ?

    ???? ???, ?????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?????, ????? ???, ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???????; ????? ??? ?????? ?????????, ?????? ?????, ????? ?? ?????, ????? ??????; ??? ??? ?????? ??? ??????, ?????? ??? ????. ?? ????? ????? ???? ???????, ??????? ???? ??????, ????? ??? ??????? ?????? ???????, ??????, ??????? ????? ????; ??????? ??? ?? ??????, ????? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ????, ?? ?????? ????.

    The Hasmoneans did much worse aveirot than the worst leftist would dream of doing (like slaughtering the Chachamim). How much more so should we celebrate the founding of the State of Israel and say the full Hallel with a beracha

    #944330
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    The Hasmoneans did much worse aveirot than the worst leftist would dream of doing (like slaughtering the Chachamim).

    Yeah, I think I’ve heard things roughly that bad being advocated by some leftists.

    Then there is also the small issue of Ben-Hecht’s accusations which, if true, are exactly that.

    #944331
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sam2, I just meant that 147’s profile includes many references to Yom Haatzmaut.

    #944332
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Sam: Can you find us that please? All I found is this http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/touro-or-yu

    and I don’t see me saying that, although, the second post on this thread is golden.

    #944333
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant
    #944334
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Shkoyach DY. Excellent. Very fine posting there on my part too.

    #944335
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It was easy. I googled “incorrigible”.

Viewing 50 posts - 1 through 50 (of 76 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.