August 11, 2011 1:02 pm at 1:02 pm #598567
would it be proper for a person to goto a store that accepts wic , purchase items intentionally that he knows for a fact are not wic approved, and give the storeowner his wic checks for the storeowner to lie and claim that wic approved items were sold? Somebody told me they do this, and they claim they have daas torah, it just seems so deceitful, so dishonest, so wrong.August 11, 2011 1:32 pm at 1:32 pm #798027midwesternerParticipant
The person claims they they hav their own Daas Torah? Or they claim that someone else with Daas Torah told them this? BIG difference.August 11, 2011 1:40 pm at 1:40 pm #798028
it Florida there are specific brands that has to be approved by wic, and the cash register doesn’t accept it unless a manager overrides it (but they only do it in extreme circumstances like CY milk and the check doesn’t say cheapest milk)August 11, 2011 1:59 pm at 1:59 pm #798029Will RogersMember
ef613: You know the answer to your question, so why are you asking it?August 11, 2011 2:04 pm at 2:04 pm #798030yungerman1Participant
I think you already answered your question.August 11, 2011 2:12 pm at 2:12 pm #798031
yes, i know the answer, or at leats i think i do. I am trying to get the other side as this person is somebody I trust and look up to. I truly want to know if I am being too much. To asnwer a quesiton that was sked, this person claims they got SECOND HAND daas torah that its mutar.August 11, 2011 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #798032zen3344Participant
It is not only WRONG morally and ethically, but it is FRAUD committed by both the consumer and the store owner. Both should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
And we wonder why the United States is in the financial shape it’s in.August 11, 2011 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #798034ToiParticipant
Gotta love american indignanceAugust 11, 2011 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #798035apushatayidParticipant
Would it be proper for me to walk into TOI’s store and when he/she wasn’t looking, take $50 from the cash register? Would it make a difference if TOI would never find out about it? Would it make a difference if I claimed Daas Torah allowed me to take it?August 11, 2011 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #798036bezalelParticipant
it just seems so deceitful, so dishonest, so wrong.
Yes, yes, and yes. You can also add the words “illegal” and “fraud”.August 11, 2011 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #798037tzippiMember
Why do people bring up this kind of stuff here, in a public forum, instead of privately asking a rav?
Can threads be deleted?August 11, 2011 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm #798038yacr85Participant
I would like to throw a shailoh here!
What if they are using their own money to buy bread, milk, eggs, etc (I’m assuming most families do purchase these items) i,e, approved items, and then buy Cheesecake (unapproved I assume) with their WIC card.
Would that be a problem?
Possibly not 100% integral but is that called stealing?
I will let you scholars decide!August 11, 2011 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #798039adorableParticipant
wic is not a card like food stamps. its a check that says what you can buy with it and how much it can cost. I cant really figure out how anyone would think its ok but who knows….August 11, 2011 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #798040
i asked for an explanation just now from the person as to the svara of the rov. they said that since the government gives you the wic so you can buy staple items, like juice, cereal eggs etc… thats their real kpayda- that you can buy it, and not so much so what brands and types.
I think if thats the case, then why would they restrict it to certain items/brands ??August 11, 2011 9:16 pm at 9:16 pm #798041
ef: They restrict it to certain brands because those manafacturers pay the State to do that. i.e. Kellog’s only but no General Mills.August 11, 2011 9:25 pm at 9:25 pm #798042FunnyBunnyMember
They restrict it to certain brands because those manafacturers pay the State to do that. i.e. Kellog’s only but no General Mills.
You are partially correct. I receive WIC checks for my daughter’s formula, and when I got them I asked for Similac- the provider told me that every 5 years all the major brands bid to give the state the best price on baby foods, formula etc. (regarding formula, it is currently Enfamil) I don’t know the system regarding regular food checks, but I’m assuming it is something similar.August 11, 2011 9:55 pm at 9:55 pm #798043yentishParticipant
while there are ‘wic approved’ brands, like ‘hacham’ said, those manufacturers pay wic for this privilege. HOWEVER, stores routinely allow you to take different brands, based solely on price point. what nobody has mentioned yet is that wic checks are designated to specific foods, but ALSO to a specific price. for example, a milk & juice check might say 3 milks and 1 juice, TO NOT EXCEED $22 in cost. therefore, some stores don’t care what milk or juice brand you take as long as it doesn’t exceed $22, which would then cost them $$. as far as im concerned, if the amounts are the same (# of pkgs or ounces etc.) and the store allows you to take better brands, this is not stealing on your part. whether the store has a liability, or is doing something illegal because they are allowing other brands to be purchased, is their issue, not the customer’s. as long as you stay under the price, you are not stealing from the government.
that being said, to specifically take a brand that is the wrong measurement, or to take food in the incorrect amounts would surely be stealing. for example, i have 48 oz juice on my check and i went to a certain store to get wic food. i asked the storeowner what i could take and she said i could take the 59 oz tropicana juice, since it didn’t come in 48 oz and ‘its all the same anyway’. i did not feel comfortable doing that, since my check was only for 48 oz.
‘ef613’ i think the bottom line is that one needs to use their seichel. just because a storeowner may be letting you steal from the government (as in the above tropicana example), doesnt mean you can or should. but the distinction needs to be made between what is stealing and what is acceptable.
p.s. the next time i went to that store, the owner told me that tropicana was not a choice anymore. so it seems he did teshuva 🙂
and ‘yacr85’ you can’t by cheesecake on wic. i think ur confusing with food stampsAugust 11, 2011 10:03 pm at 10:03 pm #798044
p.s. the next time i went to that store, the owner told me that tropicana was not a choice anymore.
Actually Tropicana IS a choice. The “juice” food on the check allows ANY BRAND. (Unlike cereal, formula, and some other food items.) The problem with Tropicana is they reduced their juice bottles from 64 oz. to 59 oz. and the checks specify 64 oz. juice bottle.August 11, 2011 10:23 pm at 10:23 pm #798045apushatayidParticipant
I don’t use WIC. I don’t know the rules. I would suggest reading the fine print to find out what the government is really makpid. I don’t know the Rav, but how can he say so unequivically that as long as you buy these staples, that’s all the government cares about. Did he ask? If every 5 years these companies bid a price, then you can be sure the govt. is makpid (as are the winning bidders) that you only take the approved brands. I sold things to the government for almost 10 years, am familiar with the RFP process and under what terms and expectations companies bid and awards made. In the case of OJ, let’s say for example that Tropicana came in with a price of $2 for a container, it is based on assumptions (which is based on govt data) of how many containers will move off the shelves. The more people that take another brand instead doesn’t allow them to charge more. The RFP surely contains language and assurances that the govt will take steps to ensure Tropicana (or whoever is the winning bidder) that those who use WIC will take their brand.
Everything else aside, what ever happened to “hin tzedek”?August 12, 2011 12:00 am at 12:00 am #798046
apy: The stores do not report to anyone which brands they sold with WIC. So neither the government nor the manufacturers know how much was sold under WIC.August 12, 2011 1:57 am at 1:57 am #798047Josh31Participant
“she said i could take the 59 oz tropicana juice, since it didn’t come in 48 oz and ‘its all the same anyway’. i did not feel comfortable doing that, since my check was only for 48 oz.”
Here, he store was giving you 11 ounces free. They will only get reimbursed for 48 oz. from the gov’t.August 12, 2011 2:09 am at 2:09 am #798048
what is more expensive?August 12, 2011 2:12 am at 2:12 am #798049
I had a different problem, I wanted to return WIC items because either it was pesach or we were moving and I told them it was WIC and the cashier said it doesn’t matter and gave me back money, now is that stealing?August 12, 2011 4:33 am at 4:33 am #798050mw13Participant
One should never rely on “second-hand” Daas Torah; ask your Rov what you should do in your situation. You’d be shocked how much a psak can be changed in a game of telephone.
“Would it be proper for me to walk into TOI’s store and when he/she wasn’t looking, take $50 from the cash register?… Would it make a difference if I claimed Daas Torah allowed me to take it?”
No, but it would make a difference if you actually did have Daas Torah that allowed you to do so. (I believe the exact difference would be changing the action from “wrong” to “right”.) And seeing as this person thinks that they have Daas Torah being matir this, they think it very much makes a difference.
“I would like to throw a shailoh here!… I will let you scholars decide!”
Don’t. A shailah should be asked to a Rov, not an anonymous internet chat room.August 12, 2011 7:08 am at 7:08 am #798051bezalelParticipant
Here, he store was giving you 11 ounces free. They will only get reimbursed for 48 oz. from the gov’t.
The government pays more for 48 ounces than I pay for 64 ounces.
I was once in a store and saw that the most expensive eggs were the medium size. When I asked the manager about the pricing he told me that almost all medium eggs are sold under thw WIC program so he charges the maximum allowed price, for the other sizes he had competitive prices.August 12, 2011 2:24 pm at 2:24 pm #798052ObaminatorMember
The government pays the retail price the store charges for the WIC items. So if you the WIC recipient customer take a larger package then technically allowed, the store will fill in the higher price on the WIC check you give him, and the government therefore pays a higher price.August 16, 2011 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #798053adorableParticipant
who said this thread was closed?!?!?!?!
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