NeutiquamErro's favorite thread with an obscure title

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  • #1147289

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    yekke2:

    That doesn’t work in practice.

    #1147290

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “It was. The Ministry of Magic’s entire supply got broken in the battle.

    (‘?’ ??? ?)”

    Not relevant to anything taking place before then. And it was in ‘??? ?.

    “and before that people were very wary of messing with time, due to various unforeseen circumstances (‘?’ ??? ?).”

    It doesn’t make sense to be worried about unforeseen circumstances because any unforeseen circumstances would have happened already. Unless you say that something already happened but no one knew about it yet and it only happened because you will go back in time, in which case by not going back in time it will not have happened. But that just brings back my other question which I don’t think yekke2’s answer actually resolves.

    #1147291

    Randomex
    Member

    [New page! 🙂 ]

    It’s been a long time since I read Book 3…

    Perhaps your actions at any one point affect the entire timeline, constantly re-writing the past and your own memories of it?

    Perhaps the narrative gives us only the final resulting timeline?

    (In any case, assuming free will, how could you be “forced” by a timeline to perform actions?)

    #1147292

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “In any case, assuming free will, how could you be “forced” by a timeline to perform actions?”

    As you plagiarize my question. But it’s ok. You probably didn’t read through the thread.

    #1147293

    sirvoddmort
    Member

    “It was. The Ministry of Magic’s entire supply got broken in the battle.

    (‘?’ ??? ?)”

    Not relevant to anything taking place before then. And it was in ‘??? ?

    Whilst the Battle at the Ministry indeed took place in ‘??? ?, the fact that all the time turners had been destroyed was revealed by Hermione in ‘??? ?, in response to Ron’s query as to why they didn’t just get one.

    “and before that people were very wary of messing with time, due to various unforeseen circumstances (‘?’ ??? ?).”

    It doesn’t make sense to be worried about unforeseen circumstances because any unforeseen circumstances would have happened already. Unless you say that something already happened but no one knew about it yet and it only happened because you will go back in time, in which case by not going back in time it will not have happened.

    And as regards the effects having already been felt, it says ????? in ‘??? ? that one of the dangers of time travel is that you might get cursed by your past self. This would mean that whilst the sequence of events up to now would perhaps remain the same, but ???? ?????? things could change. For example, the one using the time turner would be killed and be dead in real time from here onwards. An example of this would be Harry getting killed outside Hagrid’s hut, and not returning/dying in the closet where he used the time turner (the book doesn’t specify what happens in oresent time when you use the time turner, if you disappear or remain in a state of suspense, or whatever).

    Granted, this does not explain the time paradox in it;s entirety, but does at least answer why there is only one (known) instance of complete time travel in the books.

    #1147294

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “For example, the one using the time turner would be killed and be dead in real time from here onwards.”

    But that could only happen if in the original present you had cursed your future self.

    #1147295

    sirvoddmort
    Member

    Yes, and…

    #1147296

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Well let’s imagine that you are in the present and you see your future self and curse him/her. That obviously means that in the future you went back in time. So when the future comes, just don’t go back in time. And now we have arrived at the paradox.

    #1147297

    iBump 2.0
    Participant

    just thought all these harry potter fans might appreciate reading this (it wasnt all over the place so some might not have heard of it). its written in typical Rita Skeeter trying-to-find-conspiracy-in-everything style, its hilarious!

    🙂 Bump 🙂

    #1147298

    cozimjewish
    Member

    Hysterical! “(No – look at her hair.)” love it!!! lol!

    #1147299

    iBump 2.0
    Participant

    and yes, in case anyone is wondering, it was written by ?.?. ?????? herself

    maybe ill put the article under its own thread so more ppl. can see it…

    🙂 Bump 🙂

    #1147300

    Chortkov
    Participant

    PAA – I wasn’t coming to explain, I was simply making the connection! You are right, it doesn’t work in “real life”, or in practical nonhalachic concepts.

    Is it so difficult? Time Travel will mean that as long as in some point in the future one would do go back in time and do x, then already the first time round x must have happened. So as long as x has happened, you will be able to go back in time to facilitate that. However if x hasn’t happened, it is not a ???? in itself, but would be a ???? that time travel didn’t happen. Why not? Dunno. But like Dumbledore explains in prophecies, you don’t HAVE to fulfill them, you just WILL fulfill them.

    Enter ?????/????? debate now.

    #1147301

    sirvoddmort
    Member

    Not so sure myself about the ?????/????? debate. For as Dumbledore says, only by choosing to follow the prophecy, or at least an interpretation of it, was it ?????. That is to say, the ????? is ???? on the ?????. So, not really much of a ?????.

    #1147303

    sirvoddmort
    Member

    But that’s only in the inyan of prophecy. When it comes to time travel, there does appear to be a paradox, as I was ???? above. But you could always make the argument that if you found yourself killing your future self one day, the choice to go back has already been made, and therefore when whatever accident or misplaced choice forces you to go back, it is not a violation of your ?????, simply a bad choice made by your future self. Wait, that I’m not sure that makes sense…

    #1147304

    cozimjewish
    Member

    This is far too confusing for my already-overtaxed brain! (Is that why girls don’t learn gemara?!)

    #1147305

    sirvoddmort
    Member

    Yes

    #1147306

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “This is far too confusing for my already-overtaxed brain! (Is that why girls don’t learn gemara?!)”

    If there was a correlation between those two things then it would be the opposite – it’s too confusing BECAUSE you don’t learn Gemara. This is also assuming that girls don’t learn Gemara.

    #1147307

    Chortkov
    Participant

    This is far too confusing for my already-overtaxed brain! (Is that why girls don’t learn gemara?!)

    Nope. It’s too confusing only as a result of you not learning gemara.

    #1147308

    sirvoddmort
    Member

    After a meteoric rise to Deputy Head of the Department of Magical Law Enforcement, she is now tipped to go even higher within the Ministry (??????)

    ‘Are you planning to follow a career in Magical Law, Miss Granger?’ asked Scrimgeour.

    ‘No I’m not,’ retorted Hermione. ‘I’m hoping to do some good in the world!’ (‘??? ?’, ?? ??)

    Classic

    #1147309

    Chortkov
    Participant

    So if Lupin would be Mazik (a)during full moon (b) on a regular day, would that be ??? or ???

    #1147310

    doleofyou
    Participant
    #1147311

    sirvoddmort
    Member

    ??? ????

    #1147312

    Chortkov
    Participant

    The answer lies in the paragraph you so eloquently quoted: “ASKED SCRIMGEOUR”. Hermione was obviously just trying to present her opinion of the then current politics and the world situation and the Ministry’s incompetence.

    Apparently, our Great Author has decided (and she can, because she wrote the books!) that after the fall of the Death Eaters, when Kingsley Shacklebolt became the Minister for Magic (etc. etc), the world became a happier, better place with no dirty politics (oxymoron?), and Hermione now felt that her place was there.

    Alternatively, Hermione stopped being one of those who followed authority and complained about it, and rather became a person who “took the law into her own hands”, and decided that a way to MAKE the world a better place would be by becoming a politician herself. That would mean that she wasn’t “following a career in Magical Law”, but rather using that as a platform to fulfill her dream career.

    But good point anyway!

    #1147313

    cozimjewish
    Member

    I cbb going thru all those threads, but I highly doubt I am going to take up gemara in my spare time ;P

    #1147314

    sirvoddmort
    Member

    That refers to the Lupin Question, not the whole gemora thing.

    #1147315

    Chortkov
    Participant

    (Quick PJ) Why don’t you make us a graman?

    #1147316

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant
    #1147317

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    yekke2:

    Lichora ??? ???? ????? includes transformative stages. And theoretically it could also be keren or regel. But if you want to choose between shen and adam, you could just say that it’s maveh and then let Rav and Shmuel fight it out.

    #1147318

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “Wait, that I’m not sure that makes sense…”

    I agree.

    #1147319

    sirvoddmort
    Member

    PAA – At least explain why.

    Yekke2 – It’s not a question. Just an amusing reference point

    #1147320

    sirvoddmort
    Member

    And what’s to say she didn’t abandon her principles, a by-product of being deeply unhappy as a result of her failing marriage (as The Great One herself revealed recently).

    #1147321

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    sirvoddmort:

    Because when the future actually arrives, what is forcing you to go back in time? The only way I could imagine this happening is if you killed your future self without realizing it, and then when the future comes around you decide to go back in time for some reason and then you get killed by your past self. But why bother going back in time, if you’ll never be able to change anything. Even if you say that “time” is like G-d in that it knows your future actions and incorporates them in to the present, there is still no way to change what happened, because if your future self didn’t go back in time, then when you get to the future you will ostensibly not be able to go back in time, and if your future self did go back in time then the present already happened in accordance with the future so at best you would be forced to go back in time in order to uphold the present which only happened as it did BECAUSE of what you did in the future which also would mean that you never have the choice whether or not to go back in time, which then begs the question – what made it that in the present your future self was back in time? It wasn’t your future choice, because your future self didn’t have a choice.

    #1147322

    sirvoddmort
    Member

    PAA – Yeah, pretty much. But the same problem does not apply to prophecies, and that was the etzem point.

    #1147323

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Prophecies ??? ??? ?????

    #1147324

    Chortkov
    Participant

    Once we start on the Harry Potter topic – Can anybody possibly explain how Hermione has the ability to free Hogwarts elves? Harry couldn’t free Dobby, he had to trick Lucius Malfoy into doing it. So why would it help for Hermione to leave hats lying around?

    ??? ??? ????? ??? ??????

    #1147325

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Every one in Hogwarts has ba’alus on the elves.

    #1147326

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Here’s a question:

    In the seventh book we are introduced to the “trace”, a means by which the Ministry can track underage magic. Yet this is at odds with earlier books where the Ministry is not able to determine if an underage wizard did magic; they can merely determine that magic was performed in a certain place (e.g. Dobby in the beginning of the second book).

    #1147327

    Chortkov
    Participant

    Why would that be? Surely only the staff have baalus? That would be ridiculous if everything belonged to all the students!

    #1147328

    sirvoddmort
    Member

    In the seventh book we are introduced to the “trace”, a means by which the Ministry can track underage magic. Yet this is at odds with earlier books where the Ministry is not able to determine if an underage wizard did magic; they can merely determine that magic was performed in a certain place (e.g. Dobby in the beginning of the second book).

    Shteit ?????, that the trace can detect magic performed in the vicinity of an underage wizard, but not who by. This is why it was why at the beginning of ‘??? ? they are unable to transfer Harry through spells, as casting spells, even by overage wizards, would result in activating Harry’s trace. Therefore they used modes of transport upon which the trace didn’t work i.e. charmed objects such as brooms and potions. So in the case of Dobby, it would be traced to 4 Privet Drive.

    And yekke2, old question. Pashtus PAA is right, although it’s not so ????, especially as all the Elves are doing is picking them up. So Dobby in his time at the Malfoys could have just picked up some clothes. And can all House-Elves not work with clothes? ???? its ???? on ??? ?????.

    #1147329

    Chortkov
    Participant

    PAA – You answered your own question. They can (a) determine magic that was performed in certain places, and (b) determine the location of underage wizards. That is why in wizarding households, they can get away with underage magic, because magic is automatically blamed on the adults who live there. That is how the trace is explained.

    However, that seems to be contradictory to many places in the book where it seems that they cannot trace underage magic. (example – When Harry runs away in book 3, fudge didn’t know where he was) So I would find it easier to say that they know the location of underage wizards (as in where they live), and when magic comes up from areas that don’t seem to be populated by wizards, they know to blame it the underage wizard.

    (That won;t answer how they could know if it was in the presence of a muggle or not.)

    #1147330

    doleofyou
    Participant

    If they can trace specific magic, why can’t they pinpoint all unforgivable curses? (Example: Umbridge “what the minister doesn’t know…”)

    #1147331

    GG boy
    Participant

    I bet that even JK Rowling wouldn’t be able to keep up with this lomdisheh discussion. With so many Harry Potter experts here, somebody should write a Peirush Al Harry Potter. The sefer would be a best seller! LOL

    #1147332

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    sirvoddmort and yekke2:

    Your answer(s) work for Dobby, but in the seventh book, when they get attacked in Totenham Court Road, Hermione suggests that Harry still had the trace. They only reject this because it would have been impossible for him to still have the trace, thus implying that the trace would have been capable of tracking where he was.

    #1147333

    Chortkov
    Participant

    And yekke2, old question. Pashtus PAA is right, although it’s not so ????, especially as all the Elves are doing is picking them up. So Dobby in his time at the Malfoys could have just picked up some clothes. And can all House-Elves not work with clothes? ???? its ???? on ??? ?????.

    “Old question” that hasn’t been answered satisfactarily.

    And ????? is spelt with an ?. And it isn’t ???? on that, because Lucius Malfoy never wanted to free Dobby, he just happened to catch something Lucius threw.

    #1147334

    Chortkov
    Participant

    I bet that even JK Rowling wouldn’t be able to keep up with this lomdisheh discussion. With so many Harry Potter experts here, somebody should write a Peirush Al Harry Potter. The sefer would be a best seller! LOL

    This is just the tip of the iceberg. There are many more questions, perhaps we will discuss them in the future.

    These books have been written. Most people find these questions a chisoron in the book. I find them a maaleh; it shows the tremendous breadth of the series. Almost no other series would be possible to find such tiny details to ask from. Only Harry Potter has such a vast world that can actually have contradictions.

    #1147335

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Does Harry Potter wear techeiles?

    #1147336

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    A few more questions:

    1) Harry beats Voldemort because he has the allegiance of the Elder Wand because he disarmed Malfoy who had disarmed Dumbledore. However, Harry didn’t win the Elder Wand from Malfoy; it was just Malfoy’s regular wand. So why would Harry have the allegiance of the Elder Wand?

    2) In the first book, Dudley’s friend Piers is described as “a scrawny boy with a face like a rat” yet a mere six pages later, we are told “Piers, Dennis, Malcolm, and Gordon were all big and stupid”. ??? ?????.

    3) Hermione says that she has never done a memory charm before, yet she had already modified her parents memories. Maybe you can be mechalek between wiping memories and changing memories.

    #1147337

    ivory
    Member

    I haven’t read Harry potter ( gasp) but am flabbergasted at how presumably grown men ( and women) can be so into this!!!

    #1147338

    “And yekke2, old question. Pashtus PAA is right, although it’s not so ????, especially as all the Elves are doing is picking them up. So Dobby in his time at the Malfoys could have just picked up some clothes. And can all House-Elves not work with clothes? ???? its ???? on ??? ?????.”

    In Dobby’s case, Lucius literally gave him a sock. House-elves are freed when the masters physically present them with clothing, not when they have to work with clothing as part of their job– so laundry wouldn’t count.

    However, Hermione does not physically give her hats to the house-elves in Gryffindor Tower. The hats nevertheless have the power to free the elves because she planted them with the kavannah that they are gifts. (So if she just carelessly left her own hat lying around, a house-elf could pick it up and return it to its place without being freed.)

    #1147339

    “Harry beats Voldemort because he has the allegiance of the Elder Wand because he disarmed Malfoy who had disarmed Dumbledore. However, Harry didn’t win the Elder Wand from Malfoy; it was just Malfoy’s regular wand. So why would Harry have the allegiance of the Elder Wand?”

    But Harry did win the Elder Wand by definition when he disarmed Malfoy. You don’t need to physically take possession of the wand in order to win its allegiance. In fact, stealing the wand won’t make it work for you, hence Dumbledore’s plan to let the wand die with him. Remember, Voldemort thought he could just take the wand from Dumbledore’s tomb and it would obey him. But in fact, if Dumbledore had not been disarmed before he died, the wand would not have been loyal to Voldemort just because he seized it. It would have acted like an ordinary wand.

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