NeutiquamErro's favorite thread with an obscure title

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  • #1147603

    NeutiquamErro
    Participant

    I can only apologize. None of my remarks were intended to offend.

    But I don’t think I’ve insulted many people, that was a bit strong.

    #1147604

    🐵 ⌨ Gamanit
    Participant

    I still don’t get what was cheating about Harry following the prince’s instructions in the Half-Blood Prince. Isn’t potions all about following instructions to perfection? He may have been following a better set of instructions, but he followed them perfectly. Had he been really lousy at following instructions a different set wouldn’t help any.

    #1147605

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    I don’t think it was cheating. But it was giving a dishonest impression of himsel.

    #1147606

    yahud
    Member

    Sorry for butting in.

    I think that rather as portraying James and lilly as particularly smart or genius, jk Rowling portrays them more as talented, in flying, defence of the dark arts, potions….

    And an abundance of talent is a characteristic even you can’t deny harry is generously endowed with.

    #1147607

    NeutiquamErro
    Participant

    I would agree with the point about being talented, but ProfMac specifically says that James got all ‘Outstanding’ OWLS, whilst the same was in no way true for Harry. There are other direct quotes which would back this up.

    #1147608

    yahud
    Member

    Speaking of smartness.

    Hermione in all her genius, who masterfully wiggled her way out of Luna’s father’s house, hiding Ron and revealing Hary…

    When they mention Voldemort which is taboo, and all the defensive charms are broken,

    why oh why don’t they evaporate out of there instead of wasting their time disfiguring each other??

    #1147609

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Gringott’s is super secure (second only to Hogwarts according to Hagrid)… And the most secure vaults are opened simply by a goblin’s touch… And goblins can be easily manipulated by the Imperius Curse as Harry brilliantly discovered…

    #1147610

    I’ve heard from an Adam Gadol that Harry Potter is avodah zarah. Definitely not recommended reading.

    #1147611

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    I still can’t beleive this thread got so popular…

    #1147612

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    We are told that a firebolt can accelerate from 0-150 MPH in 10 seconds. 150 MPH is 220 Feet Per Second. All the Quidditch matches would be impossible at that speed. I don’t think it ever says how long the pitch is,but we know that the goalposts are 50 feet high. Which means that someone with a firebolt should be able to get from the game-height to the ground in less than a quarter of a second. I don’t think that ever happened. Even taking into account that the dive might be on an angle.

    #1147613

    NeutiquamErro
    Participant

    Well, let’s not let it die an ignominious early death, and keep it alive for as long as possible.

    And as far as the point regarding Gringotts, it is not particularly shver. From here I drift into conjecture, but…

    Enter, stranger, but take heed

    Of what awaits the sin of greed

    For those who take, but do not earn,

    Must pay most dearly in their turn.

    So if you seek beneath our floors

    A treasure that was never yours,

    Thief, you have been warned, beware

    Of finding more than treasure there.

    The motto of Gringotts tells us all we need to know about it’s ethos. It is, as far as we know, impenetrable to true thieves, those who act out of, and I quote, ‘greed’, and ‘those who take, but do not earn’, ‘a treasure that was never yours’.

    And if Dumbledore taught us one thing, it is that magic is not black or white, but contains many shades of grey. When one comes up against magical protections, their daas is taken into account, this being the reason Harry could get the Philosopher’s Stone and Quirrell couldn’t. So if we can make the connection, we find that the protection Gringotts promises will guard the treasures the client earned, against those who do not deserve it and desire it out of greed. But the creed does seem to suggest that it would be easier for a selfless thief such as Harry, to take from the Malfoys’ vault that which itself was originally stolen. Essentially, that the magical protection does not apply to hagoinav min haganov.

    At this point, you probably will taineh that the metzius was that the plan Harry devised worked, and why should that not be the case for your average thief. To this I will defend my earlier point by saying that what’s to say your average thief will find it as easy, and not encounter as yet unknown magical protections activated by evil intentions. And furthermore, Harry had incredible luck in succeeding, not to mention the help of a former employee, and 99.9% of thieves would probably have been foiled by the extensive protections.

    And lastly, just to cover my back, maybe the involvement of the Death Eaters in Gringotts (remember, that’s why goblins such as Griphook left in the first place) led to issues with security at the bank. This could be due to: The Death Eaters messing around with the ancient protections, the best goblins such as Griphook leaving, those goblins sabotaging security before they left, and lack of motivation among the remaining goblins.

    #1147614

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Maybe miles are shorter in magic.

    Maybe all the acceleration is in the last second.

    Maybe they can only sustain the acceleration for a short time like a fraction of a second?

    #1147615

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Maybe miles are shorter in magic.

    Maybe hours are shorter.

    Maybe all the acceleration is in the last second.

    My question wasn’t on the acceleration; it was on the practicality of playing quidditch at such high speeds. If they aren’t utilizing the broom’s awesome speed then it kind of defeats the purpose of having such a fast racing broom. Unless there is another sport which is mamesh a flying race.

    Maybe they can only sustain the acceleration for a short time like a fraction of a second?

    Definitely not mashma that way. However, if you are correct it would explain why over the course of the match they are not actually flying that speedily.

    #1147616

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Or maybe you would fall off your broom diving so fast.

    #1147617

    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    I’ve heard from an Adam Gadol that Harry Potter is avodah zarah.

    It is Avodah Zarah Shebattala. He didn’t say assur, right?

    #1147618

    NeutiquamErro
    Participant

    It takes ten seconds to reach that speed. If you take into account acceleration and the length of the field, they wouldn’t spend any time at 150 mph, when you consider that they have to turn, twist, etc. Also, this acceleration is also not necessarily whilst gaining height or indeed in real world conditions, such as against wind. Also, since is impractical to play at that speed, they probably simply just don’t, much in the same way your car can accelerate very fast but you can still make your way comfortably out of a car park.

    #1147619

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Brooms aren’t only for Quidditch. They are also for travel and other games.

    #1147620

    NeutiquamErro
    Participant

    And, if I can make the tzushtell to the soccer/football debate, there is a much simplified, more bombastic version of Quidditch that is played in the USA. It is called Quadpot, although in the true american fashion, I’m sure they regularly attempt to take possession of the original term Quidditch, claim it is a superior game even though it is demonstrably not, and fail to understand why the rest of the world play the original, better version. So with all due respect, can the American contingent please save their questions for their own game, and leave the European game in peace. Thank you.

    #1147621

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Stop mixing up American witches and wizards with the nonmagical population.

    #1147622

    NeutiquamErro
    Participant

    Why not?

    #1147623

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Because it’s altogether different.

    #1147624

    NeutiquamErro
    Participant

    And you’re not going to elaborate on that?

    In much the same way many of the characters in Hogwarts are fundamentally British, we can see that wizards and witches have specicifc national identities. So why should this not apply to the American magical community? We know that they aped their Muggle companions in turning an established, skilful, international game into a crude, simplified local version. So the comparison appears to hold up.

    #1147625

    🐵 ⌨ Gamanit
    Participant

    So I finally came up with a theory about Quirrel and the references to his teaching in the past. Hogwarts is not the only school in England… it’s possible that Quirrel taught defense against the dark arts somewhere else.

    #1147626

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    American Football and Quodpot are silly, but American Football is a stupid ripoff of something that was already plenty stupid and Quodpot is a silly ripoff of something that’s not all bad.

    #1147627

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Do y’all read Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality?

    I basically hold that is the REAL Harry Potter and JK Rowling’s is the fan fiction.

    #1147628

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    Yes, HPMOR is great.

    I also am reading the fanfic called Goldstein about the Jewish kid in Hogwarts, written by someone named Laazov

    #1147629

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    yahud wrote:

    Hermione in all her genius, who masterfully wiggled her way out of Luna’s father’s house, hiding Ron and revealing Harry…

    When they mention Voldemort which is taboo, and all the defensive charms are broken,

    why oh why don’t they evaporate out of there instead of wasting their time disfiguring each other??

    Perhaps the taboo made it impossible to apparate. Also, they would have lost the tent, sword, and anything else not packed in her bag so that might have caused her to hesitate – adam bahul al mamono…

    #1147630

    NeutiquamErro
    Participant

    Just to be random…

    Does anybody know who votes for who in the magical community, or are all the leaders appointed. Because there is no mention whatsoever of voting or democracy. But public opinion is still a major factor in magical politics. And who funds the Ministry? The magical community seems to rely on it for a large portion of their employment opportunities, when you consider the population size (as evidenced by the Hogwarts intake). They do not style themselves as a government, rather as a department, meaning that there is a strong chance they are funded by the muggle taxpayer, which doesn’t seem very fair. There appears to be an independent Executive and Legislature, but the Judiciary is a strange amalgamation of both, which leads to obvious questions as far as accountability and anti-corruption measures are concerned. Who judges the Minister? Are they technically accountable to the Prime Minister, and therefore to the Crown? Is Her Majesty aware of their existence? If so, can legal recourse be taken by a member of the magical community in the Muggle courts, or vice versa? And, is the magical community governed by consent, or does being born with magical blood make you subservient to this apparently unaccountable, undemocratic quango? Basically (and bear in mind this is all conjecture) what really is the Ministry of Magic? Any opinions on this?

    #1147631

    Chortkov
    Participant

    The fanfiction about Yehuda Goldstein, aka Anthony [After ‘Yehudah and Antoninus’], is a pretty good piece of work. It is a very original piece of work. Interesting that the Rabbi Zeller and Yehuda’s parents forgot about Kosher food until he thought about it, and more interesting that ‘Rosh Hashono’ wasn’t considered an ‘important festival’ in McGongalls eyes, and perhaps even stranger that the Hogwarts library had a biography of R’ Elya Lopian (lol?), but it was a great read. Shame it didn’t continue.

    #1147632

    sirvoddmort
    Member

    And, just to second that, ‘The Boy Who Yid’, to give it it’s actual name, is a very strong, funny and original piece of fan-fiction. It has some lines that are simply hilarious, and the premise is fantastic, especially in light of JKR’s recent revelations, see above.

    But of course, we must bear in mind that this fawning praise only really applies if we treat it as what it is, a good, clever piece of fan-fiction. Were we to subject it to the same scrutiny we repeatedly apply to the original, we would need a new thread. For a start…

    Why is Yehuda so mindful of his English birthday? Why is McGonagall so woefully under-prepared? Why is Yehuda’s Hogwarts letter slightly different to Harry’s? As Y2 mentioned above, why is kosher food and Yom Kippur given such low priority? And why does Yehuda contact home less often then your average bochur, especially when you consider that he is very young, in a totally alien environment, and that setting up the Floo Network for his benefit would be incredibly easy (although his parent’s might not be permitted to use it).

    And these are just small niggles. The central idea of the story, that Yehuda must go for the sake of safety, is shaky at best. Even if Rebbe Zeller’s explanation is correct, and I personally find it very weak, there is no reason why they could not have him tutored. All he really requires is the ability to control his abilities and stay hidden and safe. They could easily hire a tutor for that, or more, if permitted. I believe a certain Professor Lupin may be available?

    But all these questions have the same answer: Required for plot. And I’m fine with that. Which only serves to remind us of the superlative quality of JKR’s work, that it can stand up to the sort of scrutiny any other series would crumble under, as evidenced by this thread.

    Duke

    #1147635

    Chortkov
    Participant

    BUMP! #ktcoim

    #1147636

    Chortkov
    Participant

    Just a thought to start the thread up again – does anybody find it interesting that wizards use broomsticks to fly? Could they not find a more convenient item to bewitch with a Flying Charm than a kitchen appliance used to clean floors?

    #1147637

    Chortkov
    Participant

    It is highly unprofessional that Dementors turning over to Voldemort allows the Death Eaters to escape Azkaban. Although the Ministry believed the Dementors to be under their control, what sort of prison only relies on guards? Surely there were other charms, curses and spells ensuring the continued imprisonment of the Death Eaters?

    #1147638

    sirvoddmort
    Member

    *yawn*

    Anyway, brooms…

    If I recall Quidditch Through the Ages correctly, and I think I do, the broomstick was considered innocuous enough as to not garner attention from Muggles when not in use, but still reasonably useful when in use. Can you suggest any more convenient item? As we know, carpets were also used.

    And your question about Azkaban is one that has puzzled me in the past. But not from the defection, but from Sirius’ escape. It says he was thin enough to slip through the bars and inhuman enough (as a dog) to be unaffected, sorry, less affected by the Dementors. It seems amazing that there were no other safeguards. Unfortunately, the only answer that occurs to me is that you’re absolutely right, and there are no other, or minimal protections.

    But that I don’t find that difficult. For two reasons. One, except for in Sirius’ case nobody ever escaped, and the only reason he managed it was because he was innocent (if necessary, I’ll explain that), so even without the extra spells it was secure. And if you say that it is shver that security was dependant on the will of the Dementors, well, that leads me on to the second reason. That this is the Ministry we are talking about, naive about the nature of the Dementors and at best complacent, at worst incompetent in general. They would not forsee any defection nor think to place extra safeguards on a system they are happy with.

    And anyway, what’s to say there weren’t other safeguards? The Dementors may have only been the main component, but Fudge terms the escapes a ‘breakout’ after the Dementors defected. Which is mashma that there were otherr defences, but with the Dementors onside the Death Eaters managed to succeed. And that Sirius got past these by virtue of being a dog. Either way, I find it interesting but not confusing.

    #1147639

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    In the first Quidditch match in the first book, Quirrel was jinxing Harry’s broom and Snape was protecting Harry. What in the world was everyone else doing? Surely many people noticed Harry’s broom acting strangely. Even Hagrid with barely any wizarding training realized that it had to be a powerful curse. Now it is implicit from the second Quidditch match that Dumbledore was not at the first match, and we don’t necessarily know about the rest of the faculty, but Mcgonagall and Madame Hooch were certainly there. So why didn’t they do anything? And why was there not a major investigation conducted to discover who was trying to kill Harry? And if Quirrel wanted to kill Harry, he could have easily done it anytime, without resorting to cursing Harry’s broom in front of the entire school.

    #1147640

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Back on page four iBump 2.0 asked:

    at the end of book 1, Dumbledore said that his and Hermione’s owl crossed in mid-air, however a few pages later Hermione says to Harry that that she ran into Dumbledore on the way to the Owlery to send him the owl

    The answer is that Dumbledore had indeed returned before Hermione could send an owl. Harry, when questioning Dumbledore, did not know this and assumed that Hermione had actually sent an owl. Dumbledore, therefore, thought that Hermione had sent an owl, and thus assumed that he must have crossed it in midair.

    #1147641

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Also, what I think is the most devastating question in this thread has not been satisfactorily answered yet:

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/wizards-and-witches-jews/page/7#post-551274

    It undermines the entire plan for defeating Old Man Voldy.

    #1147642

    Chortkov
    Participant

    matters. Much also depends upon the wand itself. In general,

    You don’t gain the allegiance of a wand by simply capturing it. You must defeat the previous master. By besting the Master of the Wand, the wand changes its allegiance to you. It would be impossible to only gain one wand and not the others; it is a ??? in the ????, not a ??? in the ????. Taking the wands from Malfoy during a confrontation was an act of defeating the master, as is indicated by the fact that Draco’s own wand became Harry’s. Taking the wand away from him wasn’t directly how he won it’s allegiance; taking the wand away was a manner of defeating Malfoy, which therefore transferred all wands under Malfoys jurisdiction to Harry.

    #1147643

    Chortkov
    Participant

    Quote:

    #1147644

    midwesterner
    Participant

    Why did someone mention HPMOR? It has set me back in my Pesach preparations! Very heavy!!!

    #1147645

    sirvoddmort
    Member

    PAA:

    This question prompted me to review that section of the book, as well as any other part that could have given any clue. And so far, this question really stumped me. I cannot think of a satisfactory answer. I only have two that are most likely unsatisfactory. But whatever, here goes…

    Firstly is one I really don’t like, but that I don’t think is impossible, if improbable. And that is that Harry went back to Ollivander to double check the rule as far as other wands not physically taken are concerned, and the book didn’t inform the reader as had Harry said it explicitly it may have given away the ending.

    #1147646

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    yekke2:

    It’s a nice pshat, but there is nothing in Ollivander’s words that indicate it and there is a lot in Ollivander’s words that indicate against it. If that is really how it works then I don’t have such a big problem. The big problem is that Harry formed the plan based on what Ollivander told him and Ollivander told him nothing of the sort of what you are saying.

    Stam a kashya on your pshat would be that Gindelwald didn’t defeat Gregorovitch; he just stole the wand.

    #1147647

    sirvoddmort
    Member

    …But the most likely (far from perfect) answer, is that you are partly right. Harry was taking a risk, but not as big a risk as you made out. For if you consider what Harry knows about wands at this point, it is a fair, if not foolproof, assumption.

    What we, the reader, and therefore Harry, know when formulating this plan is that wands are not simply blunt catch-all magical tools. There is a deeper component to the wizard/wand relationship, which is one of the first things we find out about magic in the entire series (with Harry’s wand troubles in the first book, if you need the reference). When Harry ‘takes a train’ to face Voldermort, he knows a few key things about wands. Firstly, that there is a bond forged between a wizard and a wand. This bond does not respect time or space, or indeed physical boundaries. And as Harry finds out when he takes multiple wands, they all work. So your question assumes that it is obvious that this should only logically apply to those taken by hand. But what Harry assumes is that it is toileh on the gavra, not the cheifetz. Now, this would be a very brave (read: stupid) assumption to make about an ordinary wand. But what Harry is gleaning knowledge about is the Elder Wand. And the Elder Wand passes on through defeating the previous owner, and therefore from Malfoy. With the Elder Wand it is a much fairer assumption, seeing how it passes on through duels. So defeating him in any context should work.

    #1147648

    sirvoddmort
    Member

    But my favourite answer to this question is this: So what?

    Even if Harry was a foolish 17 year old who was wrong about that, and Voldy was the true master of the Elder Wand, Dumbledore’s plan has still succeeded. For Harry had, at that point, willingly sacrificed himself to defend all the others. This created for the defenders of Hogwarts the same magical protection Harry himself had received from his mother. And as such, Voldermort, free of Horcruxes and possible unable to create another, would be open to any attack from numerous people who he was powerless against, as we see that the body-bind on Neville and the silencing charms all failed to work for that precise reason. So even if Harry’s assumption about the wand was wrong, and he had no mekor, Voldermort was still almost assuredly defeated.

    #1147649

    sirvoddmort
    Member

    And, referring to the pircha PAA bought against yekke2 regarding Grindelwald, if possible I would like to make a similar vort to the one I made a while ago about House-Elves. The act can either be through defeating the previous owner, or physically taking it against their will. And the physical act, like by Grindelwald, negates the need to defeat the owner by force.

    But, yekke2, what PAA appears to be questioning in the earlier post referenced above is not the process by which it (Harry gaining mastery of the Elder Wand) works, but how Harry was aware of that process. The process makes sense (not that there aren’t any valid questions, simply that the process stands up to scrutiny), but how did Harry know? And whilst I have made a stab at answering it, it is a very pertinent and difficult question.

    #1147650

    Chortkov
    Participant

    I guess I had this question inspired by PAA; I’m not sure why I never noticed it before.

    Malfoy became the Master of the Elder Wand by disarming Dumbledore with “Expelliarmus”. So why do wands not change allegiance every time anybody used the disarming spell?

    Some are easier to answer. Apparently, the spell itself isn’t enough to defeat somebody. Like when Snape killed Dumbledore, it wasn’t called defeating him, because Dumbledore wanted him to [besides for the fact that Malfoy had already disarmed him!] – In Dumbledores Army and the Duelling Club, the duels were set up willingly, and there was no harm intended. Any ‘friendly’ duel could be answered that way. But any time it was used without the ‘consent’ of the subject of the spell, why wouldn’t it win the allegiance?

    There could also be a slight difference on the situation the spell is used in. If the spell is simply to disarm, but not in the context of a genuine fight (For example – when Harry uses it to get the diary from Draco Malfoy in Book 2, where he used it to try accomplish something, but not trying to ‘defeat’) then it wouldn’t ‘defeat’. It would have to be a spell that was a gamechanger in a real power struggle.

    #1147651

    sirvoddmort
    Member

    yekke2:

    This question occurred to me whilst mulling over PAA’s excellent question. However, I focused on the actual question at the time, but came up with the exact svorah you mentioned, that the aim of the conqueror must be to defeat their opponent fully, as opposed to any schoolboy duel where both sides are aware that any victory is temporary. I anticipated having to address this as I attempted to deal with the issue about how Harry knew his plane would work, as I wrote in the brackets ‘not that there aren’t any valid questions, simply that the process stands up to scrutiny’. The ‘valid questions’ in this instance would refer to the process of defeating an opponent, and why this would not apply in many other instances of duelling and the like.

    As a general point, yekke2, as I said above, what really troubled PAA, and is currently bothering me as a result, is not how the process worked, that it applied to other wands under the defeated opponent’s jurisdiction. That is not the issue at hand, although you have addressed it superbly. The question is how Harry knew the process would apply to a wand he did not physically conquer.

    #1147652

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Regarding the allegiance of wands:

    First of all, upon rereading the excerpts that I quoted from Ollivander, it seems to me that Ollivander wasn’t 100% certain about the idea of wands changing allegiances. Notice how he says things like “then it may be yours”, “I think so”, “I think so”, “Whether it needs to pass by murder,

    I do not know”.

    Additionally, there could really be two separate issues here. The starting point is that a wand that is not yours doesn’t work well for you. So theoretically, “winning a wand” could just allow it to work well for you without the added chiddush of allegiances changing. Ollivander’s statement of “Yes, if you won it, it is more likely to do your

    bidding, and do it well, than another wand” would reflect this. Though Ollivander does seem to hold of the added chiddush.

    But getting to yekke2’s question, I think I was sort of alluding to this earlier, namely, that if disarming someone causes a change of allegiance, then there would really be complete anarchy. Wands would be changing allegiances on a daily basis and no one would be able to keep track of it. Also, in the third book Harry disarmed Snape. So Harry should have had the allegiance of Snape’s wand. Now sirvoddmort might answer both of these points by saying that when the person took his wand back, he regained its allegiance.

    Stam a kashya – how did Dumbledore defeat Grindelwald if Grindelwald had an unbeatable wand? Unless “unbeatable” is lav davka.

    #1147653

    You’re all insane. A meaningless conversion, on a meaningless topic, with a meaningless agenda. And HP is kishuf. And is says befeirush in the book that the wand doesn’t matter so much, its all about the wizard behind it. It wad just rumored to be unbeatable. While powerful, it couldn’t compete with a superior wizard. Now get a life.

    #1147654

    Chortkov
    Participant

    And HP is kishuf.

    Is it? Rabbi Zeller doesn’t seem to think so. I wasn’t too impressed by his logic, but then again… Daas Torah is Daas Torah (Okay, that was deliberately intended to annoy PAA)

    Good thing there is no prohibition to talk about Kishuf! And of course it’s not kishuf; it’s not real!

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