In the Purim Spirit: Women are required to Ad dlo yada 😂🤣😂🤣

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  • #1692456

    Women are required to do all the mitzvos of Purim: They must hearmegillah, they must do mishloach manos and matanos laEvyonim, and they must eat seudas Purim and say al hamisim. What about the chiyuv of Ad Dlo Yada?

    Drinking is not a real issue for women (out of tznius concerns), because they are m’chuyiv in Daled Kosos (which is enough to bring someone to the state of Ad Dlo Yada)! They are not exempt from that drinking!

    But using the rule of: puk chazi my ama dbar (go see what Yidden do), we see that women are not keeping this chiyuv.

    My question is why? And maybe there should begin a campaign to adhere to this chiyuv of women doing ad dlo yada!

    Lchaim!

    #1692550

    Any recommendation on which scotch to do the chiyuv of ad dlo yada for women?

    #1692568

    Joseph
    Participant

    Women are prohibited from drinking and getting shikkur on Purim according to l’chol hadeios.

    #1692581

    1
    Participant

    It’s called purim mixers

    #1692586

    writer
    Participant

    We have enough issues even without woman drinking ad dlo yada let’s not add on. We can start by working on summer modesty first and then advance to drinking.

    #1692626

    apushatayid
    Participant

    OK

    #1692700

    DISCOVERHASHEM
    Participant

    This is actually a very valid question that the thread starter asked. I have searched for this answer for years and haven’t been pleased with the findings. There are poskim who require women to drink a cup/some wine but unfortunately all seforim that I’ve seen either don’t bring up the issue, or rarely just explain that it isnt tsnius for women to get drunk (based on a gemara but dont remember where off hand).

    But an even better question was triggered by your second post on this thread, about scotch. its actually fascinating to read the arguments throughout various seforim about whether one is yotse the mitsva with non-wine alcohols. Some say the Nes happened with wine, so its davka wine, others say as long as your ad delo yada it doesnt matter which liquor got you there…

    a question ive had is whether or not you can be yotse with Brandy according to all opinions since its made out of fermented grapes just like wine is.

    #1692722

    Reb. “Any recommendation on which scotch ” none, ad dlo yada should be achieved thru drinking wine.

    #1692725

    The Biur Halachah (D”H Chayiv Inish) specifically mentions drinking wine,

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=49628&st=&pgnum=320

    #1692723

    Some Common Sense
    Participant

    No they are not required to drink; please see the Gemera in Kesuvos and the Rabbeneu Ephraim in Megillah.

    #1692739

    funnybone
    Participant

    You are not yotzei drinking w scotch, only wine.

    #1692750

    The Nitei Gavriel (hilcho purim simam Ayin Gimmel) states that there is no mitzvah for women to drink wine on Purim.

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46446&st=&pgnum=405

    #1692827

    The little I know
    Participant

    On numerous threads in the CR, there is intense discussion and debate about the entire subject of ad delo yoda. From the appearance of it, there is far more noise about being “machmir” on this than on the true mitzvos of the day spelled out in the Megillah, which are reading the Megillah, mishloach manos, seuda, and matanos lo’evyonim. The ad delo yoda appears as a statement in the gemora, and is included in Shulchan Aruch. I am not minimizing its importance. But it is NOT one the main 4 mitzvos of the day. Rather, it is to be viewed as a subset of the existing mitzvos, not one of its own. So the concept of being “machmir” is misapplied.

    The fact that something becomes commonplace is not grounds to call it a minhag nor a mitzvah. There is no halachic source (if you find one, please share it) for imbibing any other form of alcohol besides wine on Purim.

    Observing the “chumros” about getting drunk paired with extreme “kulos” in many other areas of Yiddishkeit, the contrast is remarkable, and one must question whether the drinking is being made into a goal of its own.

    The wild behavior observed in the streets on Purim night (after megillah) is completely antithetical to the true simcha of Purim. It seems that there is a controlled desire to reach intoxication, behave loudly and wildly, without regard to the chilul Hashem factor, nor the disturbance it creates for people who are forced to tolerate it, Purim simply lifts these rules of decency. Sorry, but I have yet to find a Torah source that makes such behavior virtuous. It defies the midos that a Yid is expected to follow.

    #1692835

    Mrs Joseph “Women are prohibited from drinking and getting shikkur on Purim according to.”

    CIte at least ONE of the ” l’chol hadeios”.

    Women ARE michuyav in Daled Kosos (which is certainly enouigh to reach shikrus)! Women ARE michuyov in ALL mitzvos haYom.

    Ad D’lo Yada is one of the chiyuvim!

    The default is that a woman is michuyav unless there is a CLEAR dispensation from RELIABLE POSKIM (some such as Rav Shachter – the possek of the OU on Inyonei Kashrus, you don’t recognize) that state that she isn’t. michuyav!

    #1692861

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Some say the Nes happened with wine, so its davka wine

    Who says davka wine?

    ad dlo yada should be achieved thru drinking wine.

    Source?

    You are not yotzei drinking w scotch, only wine.

    Source?

    There is no halachic source (if you find one, please share it) for imbibing any other form of alcohol besides wine on Purim.

    Aruch Hashulchan 695:5 (doesn’t recommend it because it leads to vomiting, but holds you’re yotzei), Nemukei Orach Chaim 695:3 page 265, Orchos Rabbeinu 3 page 56:92, Mekadesh Yisroel Purim 328, Lehoros Nosson 9:21-22, Mekroei Kodesh 44, Rivevos Ephraim 7:360:1:1

    #1692865

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    What about getting drunk through non-alcoholic wine (a special talent some people have)?

    #1692889

    wstntme111
    Participant

    The OPs question is very valid, but it hinges on an assumption. The reason why women are obligated in daled Koisos is because they were also included in the miracle of Mitzrayim. This is also the reason given for women being obligated to hear the Megillah, even though its a time bound Mitzvah.

    The question now becomes- is the obligation to drink ad d’lo yoda as a remembrance to the Neis Purim? Or perhaps, even though it was triggered by the Neis Purim, the Mitzvah itself isn’t merely one of remembrance rather it’s a “different beast” so to speak?

    I think it could be argued that the actual obligation of Ad d’lo yoda doesn’t really have anything to do with the actual Neis itself. It isn’t a zechira in the classic sense, which would carry the dictum of “af heim hayu b’oiso haneis”. Rather it’s merely a Mitzvah to attempt to see the unseeable, in a day where we’re pressured to peer beyond the veil of physicality to perceive a deeper reality.

    If that’s true, then the Mitzvah would carry the same laws of “zman grama” and women wouldn’t be obligated.

    #1692899

    DY:”Some say the Nes happened with wine, so its davka wine

    Who says davka wine?”

    Nitei Gavriel Hilchos Purim Perek Ayin Gimmel Siman beis

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46446&st=&pgnum=402

    #1692900

    The little I know
    Participant

    DY:

    Thanks for the citations. Some are accurate, others not quite.

    Aruch Hashulchan when addressing yy”sh seems to be referring to drunkenness in a very general sense, and is not talking about Purim. He is not very supportive of the “chumroh” of getting drunk.

    Mikdash Yisroel is quite clear that use of other intoxicating beverages is not part of L’ivsumai bePuriah. Read it again. He notes that some people do it, but does not agree with it.

    Rivevos Efraim states that other intoxicating drinks are not part of the Purim drinking.

    The source for L’ivsumai referring to wine is Rashi in Gemora Megillah.

    Many poskim translate ad delo yoda as “ad velo ad bichlal”, meaning that the drinking should not reach that level but just before it. If you read them carefully, they are not being meikil. They are claiming that the drunkeness is a detraction from the fulfillment of mitzvos, and is a state that we should not reach.

    #1692902

    binny
    Participant

    “No they are not required to drink; please see the Gemera in Kesuvos and the Rabbeneu Ephraim in Megillah.”
    If you say like rabbeinu efraim then men are also exempt from “ad delo yada”!!!
    i saw in the poskim that they should drink a “revias” of wine.

    #1692906

    avrah
    Participant

    I haven’t seen it in a couple of years, but unless I am mistaken in Kovetz Halachos from Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky he actually says that women are obligated, yet it is not proper for them to get drunk, therefore they should do the Rama, drink a little wine and go to sleep.

    #1692910

    Funny to see all the opinions that say it must davka be wine – not scotch, yet they are yotzeh with SLEEPING…

    is sleeping a by-product of grapes?!

    If sleeping is kiyum hamitzvah, surely an alcoholic beverage, especially one t which is “domeh l’yayin” by beng a “mashkeh ha’meshaker” – certainly that is closer to the chiyuv than sleeping!!!

    Maybe have a bit of wine, zecher to the seudah in shushan, and then reach ad dlo yada with whiskey, rum, vodka, bourbon, scotch and a bit of brandy.

    Lchaim!

    #1692937

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Thanks for the citations. Some are accurate, others not quite.

    Very possible. I didn’t see them inside, I found them online somewhere.

    I disagree with you about the Aruch Hashulchan. He is indeed in favor of following the R”ma, but he’s talking about Purim, and had whisky not been valid for the mitzvah, he would have said so.

    #1692934

    The ONLY source presented in a citation in Nitei Gavriel (hilcho purim simam Ayin Gimmel) states that there is no mitzvah for women to drink wine on Purim, with a source that makes a joke of it.

    THAT’S ENOUGH TO REMOVE THE CHIYUV?!

    “Af haim hayu b’oso ness” obligates women JUST LIKE MEN, so you need a STRONG source to say different!

    Don’t tell me tznius, because that would make a woman pottur from daled kossos!

    Indeed, the N.G. source wants to negatea woman from making kiddush on shabbos and yom yov! Clearly THAT is NOT halacha l’maaseh.

    #1692944

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Nitei Gavriel Hilchos Purim Perek Ayin Gimmel Siman beis

    He does, but I don’t think a single source he brings backs up what he says.

    OTOH, he brings the נר למאה who clearly holds whisky is okay.

    #1692984

    apushatayid
    Participant

    let them take a nap and fulfill the obligation according to the opinions that sleeping suffices. besides, women have become the designated drivers for their husbands/sons on purim.

    #1692985

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Wine is too chashuv to drink too much of at once.

    #1693001

    According to Mrs Joseph, “Women are prohibited from drinking and getting shikkur on Purim according to l’chol hadeios.”

    Who has the sefer ” l’chol hadeios”???

    #1693003

    rofehardamah
    Participant

    The 4 kosos are different than the wine drunk for add’loh yadah;
    The 4 kosos are consumed around the seder table, at home, without exposing herself to the (ugly) events/non-tzniyus of the outer world.
    Whereas on Purim drinking and going out can, Chas v’sholom, lead to issur.
    So no comparison to 4 kosos should be made.

    #1693023

    Joseph
    Participant

    rebbetzin – do you have even a single source that says a woman is permitted to get drunk?

    #1692988

    It’s not just women that MUST get drunk on Purim – also ALL girls over bas mitzvah!

    All bais yaakov girls should be ad dlo yada to do the chiyuv properly!!

    #1693029

    The little I know
    Participant

    rofeh:

    Good point. But I ask for a source that the drinking on Purim involves anything with the outside? It is part of seudas Purim, or for some one should be sipping wine all day. Since when is the loudness outside with the yelling, off-tune singing, etc. part of the holiest day of the year, Purim? I grant that the solemn demeanor of Yom Kippur is not the model for Purim, but the kedusha is right up there. How can one consider the “vilde chaya” behavior a way to achieve and internalize kedusha?

    #1693035

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Rofehardamah, in that case, it is assur for a woman to go out on Purim, but she must drink.

    #1693045

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Mikdash Yisroel is quite clear that use of other intoxicating beverages is not part of L’ivsumai bePuriah. Read it again. He notes that some people do it, but does not agree with it.

    Okay, I looked it up. That is absolutely wrong. He says you’re yotzei with any intoxicating beverage, but there’s an inyan al pi kabbala to at least drink a little bit of wine.

    #1693101

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    BTW, it’s Mikadesh Yisroel, not Mikdash Yisroel.

    #1693106

    rofeh – “The 4 kosos are different than the wine drunk for add’loh yadah; The 4 kosos are consumed around the seder table, at home, without exposing herself to the (ugly) events/non-tzniyus of the outer world.”

    So…based on that “svoras ha’beten”, a woman at a Pessach resort is OSSUR from drinking dalad kossos?!

    #1693107

    ujm – “rebbetzin – do you have even a single source that says a woman is permitted to get drunk?”

    It’s the other way around, women ARE michuyav in all the chiyuvim of Purim “just like men”.

    To differentiate them requires a VERY RELIABLE source!!

    Do you know of a heter that says women are pottur?!

    #1693109

    Reb. The N.G. brings that a husband odes not have to give his wife wine to make her own kiddush as she can be motzi thru someone else. If your on a women’s lib agenda please dont purposely misread a noted poseik’s words and twist them to your will.

    #1693127

    unommin
    Participant

    It is absolutely ossur and completely antithetical to frum values for a woman to drink to intoxication, certainly intentionally. Any man who advocates for such things should be questioned for his learning and values, any rov who publicly considers this with legitimacy should be shunned and rabbinically defrocked. Shame, shame. Go learn the absolute basics of tzniyus, kavod habriyos, and respect for protection of women. Shame, shame.

    #1693155

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Unommin, there are ways for women to get drunk safely.

    #1693169
    #1693197

    Unommin, are you attacking chazal for requiring women to drink daled kossos each night of the seder?!

    Are your words directed at Chazal that REQUIRE a woman to drink 4 cups of wine (preferable – entire cups) on consecutive nights:

    ” Any man who advocates for such things should be questioned for his learning and values, any rov who publicly considers this with legitimacy should be shunned and rabbinically defrocked. Shame, shame. Go learn the absolute basics of tzniyus, kavod habriyos, and respect for protection of women. Shame, shame.”

    #1693204

    lower – “as she can be motzi thru someone else”, sure, when her husband is away, she is forced to depend on a strange man to make kiddush for her…does she go to the strange man’s house or does she invite him into her house? (Of course keeping hilchos yichud). What;s wrong with THAT picture?! You say I am pushing a “women’s lib agenda” to allow her to make her own kiddush or am I pushing proper behaviour of a married bas yisroel not to depend on strange men to make kiddush for her??

    #1693205

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    According to the RMA SA O’CH 695 just drink more than the usual and fall asleep afterwards so you can’t differentiate when you sleep. This can also be accomplished by women.

    #1693221

    Since we can all agree that BOTH men and women have an equal chiyuv of ad dlo yada (as unsavory as it is for some to swallow this “bitter pill”)…my question is: when tatty is “toyt shikur” (dead drunk) and mommy is “shikur vi loit” (as drunk as Lot), who is taking care of the babies?

    #1693278

    Anyusernameopen?
    Participant

    @goldenpupik
    They might also have a chiyuv to drink midirabanan mitzad chinuch

    #1693270

    The babies will drink too.

    #1693293

    YaishMeforshim
    Participant

    asdf

    #1693295

    ghjkl;’

    #1693290

    YaishMeforshim
    Participant

    Reb – Your constant comparison between the chiyyuvim of Daled Kosos and of Ad D’lo Yada is quite clearly misguided. The mitzva of Daled Kosos, along with the other mitzvos during the seder, is to commemorate Yetzias Mitzraim. If anyone were to become slightly intoxicated as a byproduct of fulfilling this mitzva ( which, in my experience, is incredibly rare) it would be simply that, a byproduct. To suggest that the chachamim should patur women from participating in a mitzva in which the kiyyum is the through DRINKING not the INTOXICATION is preposterous. It is very easy to drink the daled kosos and not be intoxicated at all (drinking a very low percentage wine or maybe being makel for the shittos which allow grape juice.
    The mitzva of Ad Delo Yada is the intoxication itself. Yes, women are also included in the obligations of the day Purim but for them to become heavily intoxicated to the point of Ad Delo Yada would be a gross violation of a women’s tafkid to be tzanua and an explicit divergence from hashkafas HaTora. Kol kvuda bas melech pnimah

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