March 4, 2009 2:59 am at 2:59 am #1008058
First of all, it is inaccurate and misleading to state that “getting drunk is a mitzva,” so why should it be banned. If you went to a standard yeshiva, I’m sure you are well aware of the many interpretations of “ad d’lo yada,” none of which allow a Jewish man, married or unmarried, to get so embarrassingly plastered that he cannot learn or daven. The Mishna Berurah also encourages us to remember that things like stealing do not become suddenly permissible because it’s Purim.
That being said, it might make more sense to say that “being mekayam ad d’lo yada” is a mitzvah, and should not be banned–taking into account, of course, that ad d’lo yada is not supposed to be a blanket allowance to drink within a pint of alcohol poisoning and then pass out in a pool of your own vomit on the Beis Midrash floor.
It seems to me that some people are far too quick to find some way in which they can blame women for the debauchery that can sometimes occur on Purim–most of it the result of too much alcohol and too little self-monitoring. Yes, girls have worn and probably will wear costumes that some deem too provocative, but let’s remember that dressing provocatively is an issue to be contended with 365 days a year, not just on Purim. And, just like all the other days of the year, it is incumbent on the men to avoid encouraging or gaping openly at those attired inappropriately.
So your question is really a non-question. Can women wear non-provocative costumes? Yes, they can, just as men can. If it bothers you that you have to share the mitzvos and minhagei hayom with the opposite sex, I’m terribly sorry for you, but it’s their mitzvah too. Can women dress provocatively and inappropriately? No, they can’t, and that is not a concept unique to Purim.March 4, 2009 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #1008061sammyjoeMember
Just curious; is there anything wrong with a woman drinking on purim? my sister in law likes to drink some wine,she is a mother of three,and she enjoys it.im wondering if i should say something to her (no she does not get drunk, just a little high)
regardin dressing up i think that as long as its not overdone, meaning that a funny shaitel vechedoimeh is alright. ask ur lorMarch 4, 2009 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #1008063
The Gemorah says Chayiv Inish, not Eisha 😉
From here (and other places) the Pri Chadash bring a rayah that women are not chayiv in Purim, only in Megillah. The Rambam seems to agree with this (as he says Miegillah is a chyiv on everyone, but fails to say so by the other mitzvos), but the Rama argues and says all the mitzvos apply to women as well.
As such, I can’t think of a reason off the top of my head why women should be Patur from drinking (assuming like the Rema.)March 4, 2009 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #1008064
GAW, it’s not becoming for a bas Yisrael, and besides, we’ve had no shimush. I can’t think of any rebbetzins who’ve got drunk on Purim. I guess we’re the designated sober gender.March 4, 2009 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #1008065
I happen to agree with you due to the concept of “puk Chazi Mah Avid Almah”, but I have no halachic reason why this should be the case. Perhaps the women also hold of the other Rema (since he is the one who holds there is Seudah in the first place for women) regarding drinking, and they take a catnap at some point.March 4, 2009 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #1008066
If the Rema states that women are mechuyavos in the mitzvah of ad d’lo yada, then they are. Obviously, the drinking aspect of Purim as well as the costume aspect of it may be done–within reason–by women. They, like the men, have the option of drinking a little more than usual and then taking a short nap. Ad d’lo yada accomplished, and no need to get humiliatingly plastered.
A generation ago, it was considered “unbecoming” of a Bas Yisrael to go out into the working world where they are highly likely to be noticed and interacted with by unrelated men. Now, with the rise of the kollel lifestyle, this concept has mysteriously ceased to be an issue. My point is, don’t allow other people who fancy themselves the newest chelek of Mishna Berurah to determine, as per their whims and personal preferences, what is or isn’t appropriate for a Bas Yisrael. There are guidelines for every community, and one is expected to keep to them.
There is no reason a woman should not fulfill her–equally valid–mitzvas hayom because some anonymous armchair philosopher decided he doesn’t like it.March 4, 2009 7:41 pm at 7:41 pm #1008067
Does the Rema say that? The Rema says they are chayiv in Seudah, and an intrinsic part of the Seudah is to drink (mashma that women are chayiv, but not bulletproof). If you have a specific mekor that women must drink, please share it with us.
However, I see no reason why women should be Patur. Why is it any different than the 4 Kosos? (Acc. to the Rema)March 4, 2009 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #1008068
oomis/ david bar: dressing in a untznius costume is assur as it is the rest of the yr but i think ppl feel its ok because its Purim. regarding a woman dressing up in a tznius manner, i think it draws attention even if everyone is doing it. everybody is always looking at each others costume on Purim and I think just as a man will attract attention attention with his costume, so will a woman which is a problem. regarding drinking its a mitzva as long as you keep to the halachic guidelines. i do not want to talk about drinking here in this thread so we could fight it out in the to drink or not to drink thread.March 4, 2009 8:21 pm at 8:21 pm #1008069myshadowMember
most women don’t really dress up they just wear a cute hat or shirt. It’s Purim, it’s a Mitzva to be b’simcha and everyone definately smiles when you’re wearing something different. I usually wear a cute hat and tie and regular clothes so I’m not chapping where that would be not tznius
Btw ames, beautiful story!!March 4, 2009 8:46 pm at 8:46 pm #1008070
Its part of the same question. If costumes are a minhag that is part of Purim, then women should be Chayiv 🙂March 4, 2009 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #1008071
Flatbush, just because people are lax about tznius on Purim, doesnt really enter the fact of whether or not women should wear costumes.
If you think that everyone is looking around at other people’s costumes, but women attract no additional attention by wearing a costume, to me thats a man’s problem then, not a tznius issue. To be more clear – if ten people are walking down the street in bright orange shirts, and a passerby looks at the women more than the men, thats his issue. On Purim, the norm is different than the rest of the year, so she is just blending in.
If we got rid of every article that attracts attention, women would not be allowed to wear ANY jewelry.March 4, 2009 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm #1008072
sjs- if women are lax about tznius when it comes to wearing costumes then they should not wear untznius costumes. i think it does attract attention. you dont because everyone else is doing it. i dont see how that matters when it comes to tznius issues. it is a mans problem also but a woman cannot walk around untzniusdig and say well men are not allowed to look at me so its their fault, not mine.March 4, 2009 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #1008073
Re GAW: many women, who have the zechus of spending quite a lot of their married lives pregnant and/or nursing don’t drink wine for the 4 kosos.March 4, 2009 9:36 pm at 9:36 pm #1008074
flatbush27: I now see the problem.
In Flatbush, women wearing costumes causes undue attention, as the women there don’t wear costumes.
Outside Flatbush, wearing costumes on Purim is normal and does not cause undue attention.
In Flatbush wearing a costume may not be Tzanuah, but SJS & Oomis don’t live in Flatbush, so for them it is Tzanuah and Muttar!
Shalom Al Yisroel, Venomar Amen.March 4, 2009 9:36 pm at 9:36 pm #1008075
Re David Bar-Magen: please quote sources, classic and contemporary pro-women drinking. Until then, I would much rather rely on the “anonymous arm chair philosophers” and the classic chinuch of tznius and proper behavior for women that I for one imbibed at home and at school. I don’t plan to drink.March 4, 2009 9:37 pm at 9:37 pm #1008076
Of course. However it is a Chiyuv (in the general aspect, without bringing in exceptions).March 5, 2009 1:41 am at 1:41 am #1008077
GAW, I have had a change of heart. I have thought this through thoroughly, thoroughly, I say…now since there were 30+ years since I was bas mitzvahed I have a LOT, and I mean a LOT of drinking to catch up on, and I refuse to wait for Purim. I’m going to be machmir and shtart, stat, eh, COMMENCE, yes COMMENCE a half hour ago. I WILL get drunk this Purim. I just hope I remember to leave detailed instructions for someone to defrost, heat up, and put the finishing touches on the seudah…not that I expect to have an appetite. And if I don’t have an appetite then no one will! Great, no seudah this year. Thank you, thank you so much. So glad I have now heard the truth about this wonderful opportunity, after years of it being hidden from me and my commadres by the patriarchy (matriarchy? who IS behind this conspiracy to keep us women from drinking?). When did our holy ancestresses drink in history and why have we been denied for so many generations? I want answers! And I want answers now!March 5, 2009 4:08 am at 4:08 am #1008078therabbisdaughtersMember
why do all the posts in the coffee room always revolve around the tznius of a woman???? I am not chas vshalom saying it isnt a really important thing that we should think about all the time, but everyone here has their own viewpoints wich you can basiclly cut and paste from one thread to the next.I personally dont think woman should dress in anything untznisdik like many teenagers do using purim as an excuse.March 5, 2009 4:09 am at 4:09 am #1008079
Yes, in the face of a halacha, sarcasm has been known to help a great deal in one’s understanding of it, and it is certainly very respectful to the Mishna Berurah to employ it; this must be one of the lessons you imbibed in school. See, that’s why I just used it myself.
Tzippi, you don’t need any source other than the Rema to establish the chiyuv of women to be mekayam ad d’lo yada on Purim. Obviously (at least it should be obvious) I am not condoning drunken, rowdy women weaving through the streets on Purim. As I said, and said clearly, ad d’lo yada can nearly always be accomplished by simply drinking more than one is accustomed to and then taking a quick nap. This goes for men as well.
You have also neatly ignored/avoided/simply neglected to read the main thrust of my last post, which is to point out that we have halacha for a reason. Anybody can crouch over their keyboards and weave interesting yarns of what women are and are not allowed to do, but there is only one Mishna Berurah, thank God. How the mitzva can be fulfilled by you personally may be determined by asking your LOR, but what you have chosen to do instead is to deride the source of the halacha and set up a straw man argument; i.e. that I am conveying my desire for all women to become extremely drunk on Purim.March 5, 2009 5:13 am at 5:13 am #1008080JosephParticipant
David: You ignored two points. a) The Rema does NOT say women should get drunk. b) there are other shittas. (Particularly, but not exlusively, for Sephardim who do not pasken like the Rema.)March 5, 2009 11:11 am at 11:11 am #1008083
Flatbush, if people are lax about wearing untznius costumes, then its not really the COSTUME thats the issue, just the untznius part.
If a woman is dressed totally tzanuah, and a man is attracted to her, that is the man’s issue. If a woman is dressed untzniusdigly, the issue is still the man’s. The woman is punished for her part of the sin, but it still doesnt excuse the behavior of the man.March 5, 2009 1:17 pm at 1:17 pm #1008084
For sephardim (as I pointed out) the ramabam (and Lechorah the Mechaber as well) holds (like the Pri Chadash) there is no Mitzvas Purim for women (Seudah, Mishloach Manos or Matonos Levyonim). We are assuming like the Rema that there is a mitzva of seudah for women, and seudah on purim by definition would include drinking.March 5, 2009 1:26 pm at 1:26 pm #1008085
Kol Hakavod. Your husband/children should cook and you drink! You deserve a break.March 5, 2009 1:42 pm at 1:42 pm #1008086
Where in the Rema?
And I am very skeptical about the Mishnah Brurah. My father, shlit”a is a baki in Mishna Brurah (and incidentally, drinks Litvak style, enough to get slightly happy, and a very carefully measured amount). If it was anywhere in the Mishnah Brurah as a psak and preferred derech from the Chofetz Chaim, I can guarantee I would have heard of it as a kid at my parents’ seudah.March 5, 2009 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #1008087
Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim 695:4. Women are chayiv in Seudas Purim.March 5, 2009 2:32 pm at 2:32 pm #1008088JayMatt19Participant
Yes they are chayav in Seudas Purim! (However, stop the limud there).
In my kitzur, there is footnote section called (Darchei HaHalacha (al pi Maran Ha Shulchan Aruch, Ben Ish Chai, and the Kaf HaChaim).
The footnote states: All the mitzvos of Purim apply to women. Megilla, Al HaNissim, Seuda, Mishloach Manos and Matanos L’Evyonim.
The lone exception is the mitzva of “l’visumei”, of which she is not obligated AND IS OSSUR FOR HER!!
(end of quote)
In other words, women are commanded to partake in the seuda, and are forbidden to drink. Additionally we see that the mitzvos of seuda and drinking are not “one in the same”.March 5, 2009 2:47 pm at 2:47 pm #1008090
Thanks. Do you have an actual mekor (perhaps in the back of your kitzur) or just a footnote?March 5, 2009 2:49 pm at 2:49 pm #1008091kiruvwifeMember
I just heard recently that the shulchan aruch; mishnah berurah writes that one should be dressed in Shabbosdik clothing on Purim. Could someone please confirm?March 5, 2009 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #1008092JayMatt19Participant
>>Thanks. Do you have an actual mekor (perhaps in the back of your kitzur) or just a footnote? <<
That was the mekor the (Darchei HaHalacha: al pi Maran Ha Shulchan Aruch, Ben Ish Chai, and the Kaf HaChaim). I will try to continue looking for more sources.
>>I just heard recently that the shulchan aruch; mishnah berurah writes that one should be dressed in Shabbosdik clothing on Purim. Could someone please confirm? <<
Confirmed. (Though I have heard that either a costume or bigdei shabbos are appropriate)March 5, 2009 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #1008093
It’s funny, but all my years as a student, and as a mother, seeing my children’s (boys and girls) projects, only FOUR mitzvos were emphasized, and if you didn’t do these four mitzvos, you weren’t yotzei. Drinking was presented as an important part of the day, for men.
No sarcasm here, but:
– is drinking the fifth mitzvah? How should it be classified?
– I’ll have my husband check out Orach Chaim for me, but again, when in history have women drunk on Purim? Where can I find out more? Now let’s leave aside that we have had large periods of time of crushing poverty where there might not have been mashke for the men, let alone the women, but how was this carried out?
– when and how should drinking be presented as a chinuch issue?
I saw last week’s Mishpacha, apparently there was an article on women, Purim and halacha. Anyone read it? Not in my budget but I’m curious as all get out.March 5, 2009 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #1008094feivelParticipant
that is the correct way for a Yirah Shmayim to dress on PurimMarch 5, 2009 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #1008095kiruvwifeMember
thank you.March 5, 2009 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #1008098ChattyMember
Kiruvwife, I’ve always heard that on Purim, if one was not to get dressed up, then they should wear their Shabbos clothes. (being that Purim IS a Yom Tov!) I guess getting dressed up counteracts that you don’t have to wear Shabbos clothes – that’s how I always understood it.March 5, 2009 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm #1008100
“Flatbush, if people are lax about wearing untznius costumes, then its not really the COSTUME thats the issue, just the untznius part.
If a woman is dressed totally tzanuah, and a man is attracted to her, that is the man’s issue. If a woman is dressed untzniusdigly, the issue is still the man’s. The woman is punished for her part of the sin, but it still doesnt excuse the behavior of the man”
sjs, they will both be punished. i never said otherwise. i think the only thing we disagree on is if a tznius costume worn by a woman on purim attracts attention
. i think i does, whick makes it a problem. you dont. correct me if im wrongMarch 5, 2009 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #1008101
Yes thats true. The reason I dont is that because on Purim everyone is dressed in attracting clothing, none of it really attracts. At that point, its on the man to not look, rather than the woman to not wear.March 11, 2009 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #1008103kapustaParticipant
ames do you mean full costumes or even hats? 🙂March 11, 2009 11:03 pm at 11:03 pm #1008104
it definitely is interesting (and sad) that people thought i was a fanatic before Purim because of this issue. then when they see the problem for themselves they realize im not that crazy after allMarch 12, 2009 5:54 am at 5:54 am #1008106
no ames. i dont think your a fanatic or i am one either. but when you said: “Darn, I’m feeling like a fanatic again.”, i took it to mean before purim you thought my opinion on this is fanatical and after Purim you think your also fanatical. correct me if im wrong please.March 12, 2009 6:41 am at 6:41 am #1008107kapustaParticipant
ames you still didnt answer my question completely :):):):):)
in case anyone didnt hear this yet…
FRUM U in the middle (you)
FR fanatic religious on one side
M modern on the other
🙂March 12, 2009 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #1008108
I looked around on Purim and saw nothing inappropriate (except for a kid dressed as an ice-skater, but that was inappropriate on Purim or not). Maybe its just that in Brooklyn most women usually dress in 95% black, that any other color shows up a lot?
Ames, fanatic has multiple connotations – some bad, some good. So when you say “oh no I sound like a fanatic” I assume you are talking about the irrational enthusaism side. Being zealous FOR THE RIGHT REASONS, so long as you recognize not everyone follows the same way, is great! Just be careful not to fall into the other yetzer hara trap. You start being super machmir just to shove it down others throats – this comes with its own sins.March 12, 2009 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #1008109oomisParticipant
“In Flatbush wearing a costume may not be Tzanuah, but SJS & Oomis don’t live in Flatbush, so for them it is Tzanuah and Muttar!”
I don’t believe I have ever implied where I do or do not reside, but in any case, though I absolutely DO think women can and should wear tzniusdik Purim costumes if they so desire, I personally do not and probably never will, because it’s not my thing. If nine people are wearing clown costumes walking down the street, and one woman is on the street wearing a dark skirt and a white blouse, SHE is the one who will be noticed. Everything is relative. The Kallah at a wedding is also noticed strongly by everyone there. Should she not wear a wedding dress?March 12, 2009 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #1008110
sjs: ames is right. brooklyn women wear high designer stuff 95% of the time and its definitely not 95% black. maybe where you live, in out of town yoohookisville, the women wear bright red, bright yellow, neon green, flashy orange and other wierd colors everyday so when they wear it on Purim it doesnt attract attention cause they dress like Purim all year roundMarch 12, 2009 7:25 pm at 7:25 pm #1008111
no oomis a kallah at her wedding should not wear a wedding dress…your comparisons are really so offMarch 12, 2009 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #1008112InShidduchimMember
comparing a kallah to a woman dressing up on purim is completely ludicrous! i mean its totally and completely against every rule of tznius to parade around with a costume on purim! id be completely EMBARRASSED to even think of dressing up on purim! its cute for the men and children to dress up, but completely inappropriate for adult ladies to get dressed up in a public setting! just thinking about it makes me want to cry. Purim is such a kodosh day and ppl defile it and make it into a day of filth and wrongdoing! instead of dressing up on purim… spend the time davening to hashem..March 12, 2009 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #1008113
inshidduchim: very good postMarch 12, 2009 8:25 pm at 8:25 pm #1008114
this thread reminds of a letter to the editor in the hamodia a while back. a teenage girl wrote in she was thinking of what she would wear when she goes to greet Moshiach IY”H and she was going through her outfits and then realized she would wear her Bais Yaakov uniform. The next weeks edition had a letter from a woman saying she would be in the house where women should be while the men greet Moshiach and not parading outside even in her uniform.March 12, 2009 8:39 pm at 8:39 pm #1008115
So if a wedding dress attracts attention, why should a bride wear one to her wedding? If its immodest and men are going to see her, its immodest. There is no “but on her wedding day she can be immodest” clause in Judaism.
Ames, it probably was the cheap LOL. Honestly though, I think you looked closer because you were thinking about this topic. Its why I looked closer this Purim. I rarely notice people’s costumes normally.
Also, I have friends that are very aidel and fine who dress up. Its in the spirit of the holiday, not to be attracting. They looked fine to me.March 12, 2009 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #1008116ChanieEParticipantMarch 12, 2009 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #1008117squeakParticipant
LOL at flatbush!March 12, 2009 9:21 pm at 9:21 pm #1008118
chaniE: enjoy Purim the way a woman should enjoy Purim, not a man. did you wear tefilin at davening under your pink sheitel and a tallis. i hope not because there are mitzvos and minhagos that apply to men and NOT women, and vice versa
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