Women Wearing Costumes on Purim?

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  • #1008119

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    oomis1105:

    Nothing against you, but you have said (approx.) where you live (in a thread). I will not repeat it here (as you may not want it repeated).

    InShidduchim: I agree (for you). Please avoid shul this Yom Kippur as you will be getting “dressed up” for Yom Tov, and shul is a public setting (and you are supposed to get dressed for Yom Tov). Also to place your statement in context, assuming you are a woman, how many years are you out of sem?

    I did not notice any non-tznius costumes, but then again, I did not look (too busy with the wine 😉

    Flatbush27: Where is yoohookisville? Can I visit? It sounds like the place (to paraphrase) “where a jew can be a jew” 🙂

    “as opposed to wearing high designer stuff 95% of the time”? B”H Shelo Asani Brooklyn Woman! Who needs it! That is more “attracting” than wearing a funny hat or the wrong colored shaitel.

    #1008120

    mazal77
    Participant

    Gavra, I am the part of the 5% of the Brooklyn women who don’t wear designer “BRAND” labels. Essentially, all clothes are designed by someone, but I am not paying tons of money for a brandname. If it is tzinus, reasonable, and fits, then I will buy it. I will never purchase a “Designer” pocketbook either. I am perfectly content with my $20.00 pocketbook and do not need a Fancy name on it to boost my ego.

    #1008121

    ChanieE
    Participant

    #1008122

    kapusta
    Participant

    inshidduchim, I have one issue with your post, not in reference to the dressing up but to the davening. I think purim is an extremely special day and a person must daven (yom KiPurim) but the main factor of the day is not davening and strengthening bain adam l’Makom the idea of purim is bain adam l’chaveiro shalach manos is given ish lereiyeihu. (to back me up, I was telling someone my opinion about this, and then I was backed up by the RY of a very popular yeshiva) 🙂

    #1008123

    kapusta
    Participant

    ok, now go back to fighting 🙂

    anyone notice this is only being discussed by women? welcome to the ezras nashim! 🙂

    #1008124

    ChanieE
    Participant

    Shhh! I’m glad the men aren’t minding our business! And we aren’t fighting; we are having a spirited discussion.

    #1008125

    kapusta
    Participant

    chanie lol!

    #1008126

    moish01
    Member

    not too many of us wanna butt in. enjoy your tznius group 😉

    #1008129

    Bogen
    Participant

    InShidduchim, flatbush27, & ames:

    Well stated!

    gavra: You obviously have this ‘i dont like ny’ complex. Many out of towners suffer from this form of jealousy. 🙂 You can always visit NY (and even move here if you want to be near so many mekomos haTorah, Gedolim, Shiurim, etc.)

    #1008130

    oomis
    Participant

    Nothing against you, but you have said (approx.) where you live (in a thread). I will not repeat it here (as you may not want it repeated).

    No problem GAW, I must have said something recognizable about my neighborhood. Personally, I don’t care if anyone knows where I am from – it just is one of those pesky “rules” that people should refrain from posting personal info. Not to worry.

    #1008131

    flatbush27
    Member

    chanieE: do you also think women should get drunk by the seuda?

    #1008132

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    mazal77: Good for you! I personallly don’t care if someone wears (Tznius) designer clothes, but they are made for the sole purpose of showing off (ask the designers themselves) and why spend the money on that and not Tzedakah (unless you are a professional and need it for work, like a lawyer).

    I would hope with the economy being what it is people will spend less on clothing and more on others.

    #1008133

    anon for this
    Participant

    That’s a good philosophy mazal. I don’t usually wear designer clothes myself, but I don’t live in Brooklyn so many of my friends and neighbors don’t either. Sometimes though a brand-name item is more durable than its no-name equivalent. For example, I bought my daughter some brand-name uniform skirts (manufacturer of women’s career clothes/ kids’ clothes). These have lasted much longer and look better than other skirts I bought at the same time. Also, I buy my kids’ bookbags from a mail-order/ online company known for its outdoor gear. They are much more durable than those I can buy in regular stores, plus they come with a lifetime guarantee. Also, we get them monogrammed with our last name at no additional cost.

    #1008134

    aussieboy
    Participant

    gavra_at_work: A person is required to give 10% of thier income and are not required by halacha to give any more. So if someone make 1 million dollars a year s/he must give 100 thousand dollars to tzedakah, but if s/he wants to buy a lamborghini or a suit from prada it is completly up to them. It may be very nice of them if they do, but that does not require them to give it.

    #1008135

    JayMatt19
    Participant

    The Chafetz Chaim says that if you are able to live on base necessities of gashmius, then you can justifiably give just the bare minimum to tzeddaka (i.e. 10%). However, if the bare minimum of worldly possessions are not enough for you, then 10% is not enough vis-a-vis tzeddaka.

    #1008136

    aussieboy
    Participant

    JayMatt19: Then why does it say that a person should not give over 20% unless they are unbelievably rich? even if a person was required to give 20%. If they made 1 million dollars they would still have 800 thousand to spend as they wish.

    #1008137

    JayMatt19
    Participant

    Please show me where it says one cannot give over 20%, and please show me the definition of 20%.

    Yiisachar / Zevulun means Zevulun gives Yissachar 50%. How can this be if one is restricted to 20%.

    I also fail to see how this disproves the above quoted Chafetz Chaim.

    #1008138

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    aussieboy: I agree. One MAY not give too much (and should speak to a Rav if the feel they are). I just feel flaunting it at this time (with the economy what it is) is not the way to go. Both for us and for the others around us. They don’t need excuses to hate us, why give them one.

    #1008139

    squeak
    Participant

    10% after subtracting expenses that were necessary to earn the money (e.g. to sell a cake, you have to buy ingredients, subtract the cost of ingredients. Or, to get to the office you have to take the bus. Subtract the cost of the bus ticket).

    #1008140

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    No one answered my bride question…

    Ames, I recently asked my Rabbi about Maaser Kesafim. He said that you should be taking 10% from your after tax, before expenses money UNLESS you cannot pay your basic bills (like rent, food – zero luxuries allowed in there). I didn’t ask him for more details because we can pay our basics with some room to spare (after taking off maaser). But yes, its BEFORE expenses.

    #1008141

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    SJSinNYC: Brides are going to be the next chumra. The Kallah will be niskadesh via a Shaliach, so that no man will see her.

    I would end :), but my moshgiach claims we will see that chumrah within the next 50 years, the way chumrahs are going.

    #1008142

    oomis
    Participant

    “just thinking about it makes me want to cry”

    Seriously? CRY????? Inshidduchim, that sounds a little over the top as a reaction to women dressing up on Purim – wouldn’t you say? You don’t like the idea, don’t do it.

    #1008143

    oomis
    Participant

    The veil comes from the Torah where Rivkah Emainu covered her face with a veil when she met Yitzchak. By the way,it is implied that the minhag for bedeken is from the idea that Yaakov Avinu was tricked into marrying Leah because her face was veiled and he did not know she was not Rachel. So all chassanim bedek their kallahs, checking to see that in fact it is the right kallah.

    #1008144

    oomis
    Participant

    For any and all people who think that Judaism is a religion meant to turn us all into dour, boring, spoilsports who have no idea how to enjoy life, that is NOT what Hashem wants for us. The world is meant to be enjoyed to its fullest potential. After 120 years Hashem will ask us why we did not take advantage of the beauty, the bounty, and the laughter in this world, that HE provided for us. Yes we have rules to follow, and the Torah delineates what those rules are. But when Hashem made a colorful, gorgeous world, presumably that is what HE wanted us to look at and to get pleasure from doing so. Being frum does not mean being an ascetic. women comprise at least half the world. Half the world is not meant to sit idly by watching the other half enjoy themselves. If you think so, you are denying yourself a fundamental gift that Hashem gave you.

    #1008147

    squeak
    Participant

    SJS, please clarify with your Rav, but I am pretty sure that what you are saying is above the ikkar hadin. If you cannot earn the money without a given expenditure, then your earnings are that much less.

    ames, rent food and utilities are not expenditures related to earning an income. Those may be why you need to earn an income, but they are not a result of it. I hope that I am clear in distinguishing between the cost of transportation to a job site (which reduces your net earnings) and the cost of non-earning related expenses. Think of maaser as a 90/10 monetary business partnership with Hashem. You would distribute the partnership earnings after deducting the cost of doing business.

    GAW, I’m not sure that the sarcasm is appropriate. I think that the issue of wedding gowns should be taken a bit more seriously. I was always appalled at how form fitting an Orthodox wedding dress is. Just like the sleeve length and necklines are tsnius, the rest of the gown should be too. Why is a kallah allowed to bend that rule (especially since she is automatically drawing attention as it is)?

    #1008148

    anon for this
    Participant

    JM, the reason a Yissachar/ Zevulon partnership can involve a greater than 20% expenditure of one’s income is because it isn’t maaser, but rather a way of fulfilling the obligation of limud torah.

    #1008149

    moish01
    Member

    JayMatt, zevulun doesn’t give it as tzedaka. it’s probably not even considered maaser – it’s in exchange for torah learning. so basically he’s buying torah and paying for it.

    #1008150

    lesschumras
    Participant

    to oomis1105,

    I couldn’t agree with you more. Somewhere along the line, it seems some people now define their level of frumkeit by how much that is muttar they can deny themselves.

    #1008151

    kapusta
    Participant

    I see the ezras nashim has been open to illegals 🙂

    #1008152

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    squeak: I was serious. I was told this by my moshgiach.

    #1008153

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Squeak, you may be right. I guess for us it would be hard to quantify some of the expenses (like how much of our gas bill is work related – most, but not all). I will clarify with him.

    BTW Flatbush, where I live people don’t dress flashy at all. But in Brooklyn, they wear more black than I’ve seen anywhere else (and I lived in Brooklyn for about 5 years).

    #1008154

    squeak
    Participant

    then he was using hyperbole

    #1008155

    Will Hill
    Participant

    InShidduchim, ames and flatbush27 have the proper Torahdik hashkofos and understand proper tznius.

    Thank You!

    #1008157

    flatbush27
    Member

    sjs; i agree people wear more black here and the reason for this is because of tznius. black is the most tznius color a woman can wear. im not saying there arent other tznius colors but black is obviously the most tznius one out there and im happy that women wear more black here.

    #1008158

    Jothar
    Member

    Aish.com is having a series on maaser. Very interesting. they talk about what to do if you can’t afford maaser.

    Costumes on Purim- I finally bit the bullet and asked my rav. He said in a community where everyone is doing it, they don’t attract undue attention. If nobody is doing it, then a purim costume attracts undue attention. So in a yeshivish community, wearing a costume is a lack of tznius. Otherwise, it’s acceptable, assuming the costume follws the halachic standards of tznius. But clearly, as with many areas of tznius, hamachmira tavo aleyha bracha as long as one doesn’t look down on those who do wear costumes.

    #1008159

    anon for this
    Participant

    SJS, when I was working outside the home I deducted childcare expenses, including babysitting expenses for my older kids when their school was closed. That would be an example of a clearly work-related expense.

    ames, as I understand it only those expenses that are incurred in order to earn income may be deducted. If a kollel wife works outside the home, or runs an at-home business, any expenses associated with that may be deducted.

    One interesting point about the origin of a kallah wearing a veil is that Rivkah only wore the veil upon meeting Yitzchok, not before (it does not seem she wore it throughout her journey to c’naan). What does this tell us about the purpose of the veil?

    #1008160

    flatbush27
    Member

    “The Yeshivah recently did some renovations, including a large gym/party room, so I guess the boys spent the majority of the evening there”

    that yeshiva stopped doing a mesiba Purim night two years ago. my son goes there. they do it the night before Purim and he said no one drinks the night before Purim so there are no problems anymore. nobody was in the gym/party room Purim night so thats why it was peaceful. as for fireworks, my son said its usually the neighborhood kids and not high schoolers.

    #1008161

    beacon
    Participant

    i agree people wear more black here and the reason for this is because of tznius.

    Sorry flatbush that aint the case. Dark colors can complement some people’s skin tone or simply is just a slimming color.

    #1008162

    ChanieE
    Participant

    And I realize that I neglected to respond to your prior posts.

    Of course I got rip-roaring drunk, but I made sure not to start drinking until after removing my tallis and tefillin.

    #1008164

    flatbush27
    Member

    chanie: on the black issue. your right. i asked my rav a couple months ago why people here wear more black and that is the reason he gave me. as you said i am sure ppl argue on this but that is what my rav told me.

    on mitzvas and minhagos, men have their own, women have their own and of course there are those that apply to both. my rav told me it is not tznius for a girl over bas mitzva to walk around publicly wearing a costume. he also told me the mitzva of drinking by the seuda is only by men and said some shittas hold its assur for a woman to get drunk. there are so many areas of Purim where the woman is involved that i think its unnecessary for her to wear a costume to get in the spirit of Purim. why do you feel the need dress up on Purim?

    #1008165

    ChanieE
    Participant

    Flatbush: Thank you for clarifying that your posts re: black and women not wearing costumes are per your rav.

    #1008166

    flatbush27
    Member

    chanie: and how do you adress the tznius aspect of a woman wearing a costume on Purim

    #1008167

    Snowback
    Member

    Dear Flatbush27,

    I have a comment/question for you.

    I respect that you use your rav to answer your questions, especially why women wear black. Do you extend that ideology to another person, when they say that their rav says a specific thing?

    There are instances in this forum, where an individual states the reason how they act is based on the opinions of their own rav, but yet they are looked down upon.

    Everyone has their own rav and differences in opinions. I don’t believe it is beneficial to ever state absolutes about anything, especially on topics as complicated as some halacha’s.

    #1008169

    squeak
    Participant

    Ames, I really don’t know what you do, but I think you can relate to this example: Suppose you sold something on Ebay for $250. Would you give $25 to maaser? No, because the item cost you (let’s say) $100 to buy. So do you give $15 to maaser? No, because it cost you $10 to ship it to the buyer. So your income, less (related) expenses is $140. In this case, you would give $14 to maaser.

    As far as what constitutes a related business expense, I would consult a Rov (e.g. the childcare example from anon). But cost of goods sold and shipping? Brainless.

    #1008170

    flatbush27
    Member

    “Dear Flatbush27,

    I have a comment/question for you.

    I respect that you use your rav to answer your questions, especially why women wear black. Do you extend that ideology to another person, when they say that their rav says a specific thing?”

    i stated right after the rav thing:

    “as you said i am sure ppl argue on this but that is what my rav told me.”

    that should answer your question. by people i am refering other peoples ravs, not individuals who think they know more than a rav.

    #1008171

    ChanieE
    Participant

    I address the tznius aspect of a woman wearing a costume on Purim as follows:

    2. For those who hold that it is not untzniusdik, go ahead.

    #1008172

    flatbush27
    Member

    chanie: so you dont think a woman wearing a costume will draw undue attention?

    #1008173

    Jothar
    Member

    flatbush27, according to my rav, if everyone is doing it, then no. If everyone is special, then nobody is special. If nobody dresses up, then doing so makes you stick out. Rav Eisenstark in the Yated chinuch roundtable said women shouldn’t dress up. I’m not sure he’s arguing on my rav- it could be in his area women just don’t dress up.

    #1008174

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Flatbush, its not really what ChaniE thinks, its what her Rav thinks no? Didn’t she say that her rav had no issues with women dressing up?

    You can’t really play both sides of the coin…

    #1008175

    flatbush27
    Member

    sjs: your rite.

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